berenson@cookie.enet.dec.com (Coffee: Nature's Productivity Tool 04-Jun-1991 1043) (06/05/91)
IPSC has definitely turned into a development environment for firearms of the future, more than a reflection of the current "practical" firearms. Compensators are finally starting to make their way into actual combat handguns (the 686 and 640 Carry-Comps are examples for revolver fans...and some special forces and swat units are looking at comps for their semi-autos). With the advent of the new EPC electronic sight, I think you'll see electronic sights in actual combat use very very soon. It is IPSC competition that lead to these developments. The response to this trend of IPSC reflecting the future rather than today, unfortunately chases away new shooters. The result is that a parallel "Stock Class" is coming into being. It is mostly informal now, but I predict that it will be completely in place within 2 years. My own club has instituted a High Stock/Tactical award with the intent of expansion if it is well received. So far, we are running nearly 50% stock guns at our matches since instituting the award. If this keeps up, we will probably expand to parallel Stock/Open clases. USPSA thinking seems to be running along the same lines, with this year's nationals rewarding Stock shooters and some thinking about separate classifications for Stock vs Open, etc. As for revolvers, this is a tough problem. It is part real, and part psychological. Given two shooters of identical capability, the one with a semi-auto will outperform the one with the revolver in IPSC competition. Sometimes this is preordained by course designs which require more than 6 shots from one shooting position. But, even when this is not the case, semi-autos can be shot just a little faster, definitely reload faster and are less prone to fumbled reloads. This causes most IPSC competitors to go to a semi-auto, even if they intend to shoot a stock gun. The psychological factor is quite clear...people feel that revolvers are non-competitive and therefore switch or quit the sport. Reality is quite different. First of all, I know two front range revolver shooters who can be in the Top-10 at a Colorado State IPSC Championship every time they shoot. So, its not impossible to be competitive with a revolver. Second, in IPSC you shoot within class. Let's say that on pure talent with a "race gun" you would shoot as an "A" shooter. With a stock revolver, you might actually shoot "B" scores and be so classified. Thus, you would be competitive within class and able to win your class. Next, you really need to focus on competing against yourself rather than against others. I am a nationally ranked "D" shooter who has worked up to "C" locally, and hopefully soon nationally. I go out each match looking to improve my own performance. I like to win my class, but I'm much more interested in my own progress. I'm also a semi-auto shooter, but I compete with a revolver in a local Modified PPC league to hone my revolver skills. I added 100 points to my scores over the course of the league, and the fact that I was still 150 points from the top shooter wasn't particularly important to me. I'd encourage you to compete in IPSC with your revolver. Remember that you compete within class. Also remember that Stock Class is coming, and encourage the club you shoot at to start giving out awards for it *now*. Within Stock Class, revolvers should be quite competitive (unless course designers intentionally design for high-capacity semi-autos). ............................................................................. Hal Berenson Home: 71640.3535@compuserve.com OR oldcolo!berenson@csn.org Work: berenson@cookie.enet.dec.com -- Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are my own, not my employer's! If I happen to communicate with you from work rather than home, its just for convenience (just like asking for a "daytime phone number") and should not be construed as representing the views of my employer or its employees, officers, directors, or stockholders. --
jt@mips.com (06/06/91)
In article <35227@mimsy.umd.edu> berenson@cookie.enet.dec.com (Coffee: Nature's Productivity Tool 04-Jun-1991 1043) writes:
[...]
#
#The response to this trend of IPSC reflecting the future rather than
#today, unfortunately chases away new shooters. The result is that a
#parallel "Stock Class" is coming into being. It is mostly informal now,
#but I predict that it will be completely in place within 2 years. My own
#club has instituted a High Stock/Tactical award with the intent of
#expansion if it is well received. So far, we are running nearly 50%
#stock guns at our matches since instituting the award. If this keeps up,
#we will probably expand to parallel Stock/Open clases. USPSA thinking
#seems to be running along the same lines, with this year's nationals
#rewarding Stock shooters and some thinking about separate classifications
#for Stock vs Open, etc.
When I was involved with the Cactus Combat League in Phoenix, we started
to require USPSA only classification rather than our own system which had
been in place since long before USPSA was ever thought of. We lumped all
non-classified people into a single "class", and guess what? We had more
than 40% of our shooters shooting un-classified. People who used to win
once in a while quit winning at all.
My own feeling is that we go with full parallel Stock/Open classes, AND
seperate revolver/pistol classes.
#
#As for revolvers, this is a tough problem. It is part real, and part
#psychological. Given two shooters of identical capability, the one with
#a semi-auto will outperform the one with the revolver in IPSC
#competition. Sometimes this is preordained by course designs which
#require more than 6 shots from one shooting position. But, even when
#this is not the case, semi-autos can be shot just a little faster,
#definitely reload faster and are less prone to fumbled reloads. This
#causes most IPSC competitors to go to a semi-auto, even if they intend to
#shoot a stock gun. The psychological factor is quite clear...people feel
#that revolvers are non-competitive and therefore switch or quit the
#sport.
It's interesting to read this and recall my early days in the sport. But
then I saw people like Vic Mahren shoot aginst Rob Leatham, et al, and I'm
not so sure at all. Note that at the last two Masters shoots, a revolver
won aginst the world's BEST auto shooters. Vic will win the Top Revolver
vs Top Auto 1 in 3 (this is a man vs man shootoff to determine the MATCH
WINNER).
#
#Reality is quite different. First of all, I know two front range
#revolver shooters who can be in the Top-10 at a Colorado State IPSC
#Championship every time they shoot. So, its not impossible to be
#competitive with a revolver. Second, in IPSC you shoot within class.
#Let's say that on pure talent with a "race gun" you would shoot as an "A"
#shooter. With a stock revolver, you might actually shoot "B" scores and
#be so classified. Thus, you would be competitive within class and able
#to win your class.
Assuming that there is seperate classes for stock vs race guns. Right now,
it is felt that some people classify using a "stock" gun, then shoot the
big money match using a "race" gun (this is only good once a year, but...).
I have to admit that I've never seen this actually happen.
#
#Next, you really need to focus on competing against yourself rather than
#against others. I am a nationally ranked "D" shooter who has worked up
#to "C" locally, and hopefully soon nationally. I go out each match
#looking to improve my own performance. I like to win my class, but I'm
#much more interested in my own progress. I'm also a semi-auto shooter,
#but I compete with a revolver in a local Modified PPC league to hone my
#revolver skills. I added 100 points to my scores over the course of the
#league, and the fact that I was still 150 points from the top shooter
#wasn't particularly important to me.
I was ranked "C" locally, and didn't like it when I stopped winning
ANYTHING under the new rules. It can take a LONG time to be classified
nationally! (I am an "official" C shooter now)
#
#I'd encourage you to compete in IPSC with your revolver. Remember that
#you compete within class. Also remember that Stock Class is coming, and
#encourage the club you shoot at to start giving out awards for it *now*.
#Within Stock Class, revolvers should be quite competitive (unless course
#designers intentionally design for high-capacity semi-autos).
It's interesting to note that many clubs DO NOT WANT seperate class
structures BECAUSE it will require more: 1) money expended on trophies,
2) time spent on the computer, 3) time sorting out and verifying
classifications then many feel desirable. Let's face it, the original
goal was for a HEADS UP ONLY competition. Then people like me wanted to
win SOMETHING ONCE IN A WHILE. Now... Oh, well.
#.............................................................................
#
#Hal Berenson
#
#Home: 71640.3535@compuserve.com OR oldcolo!berenson@csn.org
#Work: berenson@cookie.enet.dec.com
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========================= ============================marko@hutch (Mark O'Shea) (06/07/91)
In article <35293@mimsy.umd.edu> aeras!guardian!jt@mips.com writes:
#
# I was ranked "C" locally, and didn't like it when I stopped winning
# ANYTHING under the new rules. It can take a LONG time to be classified
# nationally! (I am an "official" C shooter now)
The last issue of "Front Sight" (the official mag of USPSA) said they are
going to change to a system of sending out qualification stages every month
and ask clubs to use them. They hope this will cut the time to qualify
down to 90-120 days. I hope it happens. I have been shooting with an
IPSC registration since Jan of this year and have only managed to shoot
5 classification stages. It takes something like nine to get classified.
If you are a stock and or revolver shooter write to USPSA or call; now is a
pivotal time. I want to shoot stock and compete stock.
Gun Control Means Being Able to Hit Your Target
Mark O'Shea
marko@ijf1.intel.com