jalden@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Joshua M. Alden) (06/02/91)
Hello!
I'm looking into getting a better carry gun than my Ruger GP-100.
(The Ruger is lovely, but huge.)
I would like it to have the following characteristics:
semi-auto
big-bore (10mm, .45, .40)
as concealable as possible (very important)
utterly reliable
non-reflective (stainless steel is out)
body sweat won't corrode it
no magazine-drop safety
slide release, safety, magazine release all reachable without
shifting grip to a non-shooting position.
I'd like to get a double-action-on-the-first-shot type, but one
which I can rack to single-action if I have that luxury. I want to be
able to draw and fire if necessary, but I also want to have accuracy
for repeated fire, and that means single-action.
I often wear shorts and a T-shirt or a T-shirt and blue jeans in
the summer, so I have this problem concealing big-bore firearms... :)
Any suggestions on that point? It seems to me that a single-stack
magazine is a must for maximum concealability, but I could be wrong.
Most of my previous experience is with revolvers.
Also, what are the pros and cons of 10mm, .45 and .40 ammunition?
Based on present rates, can anyone give an informed guess on when .40
will be comparable in price to .45?
I've been looking around, and I haven't found a firearm which meets
all these criteria. I thought I'd found it in the Colt Officer's .45,
but that's got a magazine-drop safety. Anyone know of a firearm which
fits all or most of my criteria, or am I dreaming?
On a completely different note, a nearby police department has just
gone to a "Sig Sauer p225/226 9mm semi-automatic pistol" as the standard
weapon, and I'm applying for a job there. Any comments on this Sig?
-Josh.
--
Josh Alden, Consultant, Dartmouth Computing | #61 Hidden Lane
Private mail: Joshua.Alden@dartmouth.edu | West Lebanon, NH 03784-9720
Virus mail: Virus.Info@dartmouth.edu | (603) 643-2840paul@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (Paul Pomes - UofIllinois CSO) (06/03/91)
jalden@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Joshua M. Alden) writes:
# I would like it to have the following characteristics:
#
# semi-auto
# big-bore (10mm, .45, .40)
# as concealable as possible (very important)
# utterly reliable
# non-reflective (stainless steel is out)
# body sweat won't corrode it
# no magazine-drop safety
# slide release, safety, magazine release all reachable without
# shifting grip to a non-shooting position.
Sounds like the new HK P7M10 should fill the bill. Corrosion might be
a problem unless it's available with a polymer coating. My P7M8 is the
most concealable 9mm I've seen, the 10mm version isn't much bigger.
/pbp
--
Paul Pomes, Computing Services Office
University of Illinois - Urbana
Email to Paul-Pomes@uiuc.eduboyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (06/03/91)
In article <35140@mimsy.umd.edu>, jalden@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Joshua M. Alden) writes:
#
# I would like it to have the following characteristics:
#
# semi-auto
# big-bore (10mm, .45, .40)
# as concealable as possible (very important)
# utterly reliable
# non-reflective (stainless steel is out)
# body sweat won't corrode it
# no magazine-drop safety
# slide release, safety, magazine release all reachable without
# shifting grip to a non-shooting position.
#
# I've been looking around, and I haven't found a firearm which meets
#all these criteria. I thought I'd found it in the Colt Officer's .45,
#but that's got a magazine-drop safety. Anyone know of a firearm which
#fits all or most of my criteria, or am I dreaming?
The Officer's model is exactly similar in operation to a standard 1911A1,
and thus does NOT have a hammer-dropping dongle or a magazine safety. Perhaps
you are thinking of the chopped Double Eagle (which may also be referred to as
an "officer's" model for all I know). Anyway, I would recommend an Officer's
model in stainless (beadblasted if the shinyness bothers you). It wins in
the concealable category, and if you carry it condition 3 (loaded magazine,
empty chamber) and practice racking the slide on draw (usually much faster
that trying to thumb cock, by the way) you should have all you want. Also,
if you feel the shit about to hit the fan, you can rack the slide and engage
the thumb safety for a cocked-and-locked carry (undoubtedly the best
compromise between speed and accuracy, but perhaps not so safe for regular
carrying).
Incidentally, the beadblasting idea is a neat one (I just got introduced to
it myself). Any polished stainless steel surface ends up getting really
fine scratches on just from casual handling/wiping. Beadblasting is cheap,
gives a good looking finish, holds more lubricant, does not reflect light,
and can be done regularly to present a nice appearance. It is not so much a
finish as a texture, so if it "wears" shiny in places you don't have to redo
the entire gun (although it would probably not cost any more money).
As per the mag release being "reachable", I am sold on the Kim Aherns grips
with the cutout next to the mag release (I have short thumbs). I used to
immediately hang extended everything on my guns (due to the above short
thumbs), but I have stopped on the slide releases (it is easier to release with
the thumb of the supporting hand during reload, and the extended ones are
easier to bump accidentally while shooting, thus locking back the slide). I
find that the stock safety on 1911A1's work for me, but most of my other
auto's wear extended ones. Due to the enourmous popularity of the 1911A1
design in competition, there are many many choices when it comes to customizing
one. The nice thing about this is that you can pick and choose the controls
you like on the gun. In terms of selection of custom parts, the next auto
in the list would probably be a Browning Hi-Power.
--
Mickey R. Boyd | "God is a comedian playing to an
FSU Computer Science | audience too afraid to laugh."
Technical Support Group |
email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | - Voltaire spf@hoqaa.att.com (Steven P Frysinger) (06/04/91)
In article <35140@mimsy.umd.edu>, jalden@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Joshua M. Alden) writes:
#
# I would like it to have the following characteristics:
#
# semi-auto
# big-bore (10mm, .45, .40)
# as concealable as possible (very important)
# utterly reliable
# non-reflective (stainless steel is out)
# body sweat won't corrode it
# no magazine-drop safety
# slide release, safety, magazine release all reachable without
# shifting grip to a non-shooting position.
#
# I've been looking around, and I haven't found a firearm which meets
#all these criteria. I thought I'd found it in the Colt Officer's .45,
#but that's got a magazine-drop safety. Anyone know of a firearm which
#fits all or most of my criteria, or am I dreaming?
How about a Glock? Available in all calibers you mention, black, very
corrosion resistant, two sizes available in most calibers (compact and
"standard"), wrote the book on reliability, one-button mag drop (with
thumb of firing hand, reachable slide release, and NO additional safety
to forget to switch off (Glock's "Safe Action" trigger system has been
described at length elsewhere, but suffice it to say that when you pull
the trigger with a round in the chamber the gun will go off - and nothing
besides pulling the trigger (like dropping it) will cause it to fire).
I have the Glock 17, the full-size 9mm which set their reputation, but
I've heard good things about the 10mm, .40, and read at least one very
positive review of the .45 (with 13 round mag as I recall). My full-sized
9mm is pretty damned concealable, and the Glock 19 (a compact 9mm) is even
more so, though it's a bit small for my large hands. I bought my Glock as
a required duty gun (game warden), and have been very happy with it so far.
Apart from this, I have no relationship with Glock.
Steve Frysingerpetert@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Toth) (06/05/91)
In article <35140@mimsy.umd.edu>, jalden@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Joshua M. Alden) writes:
# I would like it to have the following characteristics:
#[...]
# I've been looking around, and I haven't found a firearm which meets
#all these criteria. I thought I'd found it in the Colt Officer's .45,
#but that's got a magazine-drop safety. Anyone know of a firearm which
#fits all or most of my criteria, or am I dreaming?
Does disabling/removing the magazine-drop safety void the warranty ?
If not, ...
Apropos: for the longest time i've been puzzled by magazine safeties.
Can anyone explain what are they good for besides rendering the gun less
than useless while reloading ?
Thanx
Peter Tothn9020351@unicorn.cc.wwu.edu (James D. Del Vecchio) (06/05/91)
jalden@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Joshua M. Alden) writes:
# I'm looking into getting a better carry gun
# I would like it to have the following characteristics:
# semi-auto, big-bore (10mm, .45, .40)
# as concealable as possible (very important)
# utterly reliable, non-reflective (stainless steel is out)
# body sweat won't corrode it, no magazine-drop safety
# slide release, safety, magazine release all reachable without
# shifting grip to a non-shooting position.
------------------
How about the AMT Skipper in 45 or 40? It's matte stainless, grey
rather than shiney. Similar dimensions to the Colt CC: 4.25" SA
The Star PD is another you might want to look at: .45 cal 6+1 SA, only
4" and 25 oz. Comes in blue and satin chrome.
Your problem with the mag-drop safety can be fixed in many cases by just
filing off a nub from a thin piece of metal under the grips. I don't know
what to call it, but I'm sure any gunsmith or dealer can show you.
Jim Del Vecchiowdo@inel.gov (william d orr) (06/06/91)
In article <35246@mimsy.umd.edu> snitor!petert@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Toth) writes:
#
#Apropos: for the longest time i've been puzzled by magazine safeties.
#Can anyone explain what are they good for besides rendering the gun less
#than useless while reloading ?
#
#Thanx
#
#Peter Toth
I recall reading several years ago in an article about John Browning why he designed his 9mm Pistol with a safety that prevented firing when the magazine was removed. It seems that most accidental discharges of pistols happen when handling a pistol that the user believes is unloaded. With the design of automatic pistols such that it is not possible to see if there is a round in the chamber the magazine safety ensures that the weapon will not fire unless the shooter has loaded it and intends it to be read
y. This also keeps from having accidental discharges when trying to rapidly reload by dropping out the magazine and loading a fresh one before the first mag iz totally empty, as police and military may often need to do.
Looking from this angle it seems to make sense to me.
Bill
========== long legal disclaimer follows, press n to skip ===========
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United States Government or the Idaho National Engineering Laboratory,
and shall not be used for advertising or product endorsement purposes.rsl@uunet.UU.NET (Roy Stuart Levin) (06/06/91)
I don't know if the Glock's are actually "readily available" in .45acp yet.
wdo@inel.gov (william d orr) (06/06/91)
In article <35246@mimsy.umd.edu> snitor!petert@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Toth) writes:
#
#Apropos: for the longest time i've been puzzled by magazine safeties.
#Can anyone explain what are they good for besides rendering the gun less
#than useless while reloading ?
#
#Thanx
#
#Peter Toth
I recall reading several years ago in an article about John Browning why he
designed his 9mm Pistol with a safety that prevented firing when the
magazine was removed. It seems that most accidental discharges of pistols
happen when handling a pistol that the user believes is unloaded. With the
design of automatic pistols such that it is not possible to see if there is
a round in the chamber the magazine safety ensures that the weapon will not
fire unless the shooter has loaded it and intends it to be read y. This
also keeps from having accidental discharges when trying to rapidly reload
by dropping out the magazine and loading a fresh one before the first mag iz
totally empty, as police and military may often need to do.
Looking from this angle it seems to make sense to me.
Billjoel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch) (06/07/91)
In article <35246@mimsy.umd.edu>, snitor!petert@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Toth) writes:
# Apropos: for the longest time i've been puzzled by magazine safeties.
# Can anyone explain what are they good for besides rendering the gun less
# than useless while reloading ?
The magazine safety is there in case some idiot takes out the
magazine and figures the pistol is unloaded and pulls the
trigger. While this is a really dumb thing to do, I wouldn't
have much trouble imagining someone who wasn't familar with
semiauto pistols doing it. I think this feature was invented by
Browning (HiPower or 1911?). I think it is a useful feature, but
a lot of people don't think so. The FBI made sure their 10mm
pistols didn't have one. I would be interested if anyone knows
of a case where anyone was wounded or killed because their pistol
had a magazine safety.
--
Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809
joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982moore@tc.fluke.COM (Matt Moore) (06/07/91)
In article <35246@mimsy.umd.edu> snitor!petert@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Toth) writes:
#Apropos: for the longest time i've been puzzled by magazine safeties.
#Can anyone explain what are they good for besides rendering the gun less
#than useless while reloading ?
#
The magazine disconnector safety is intended to reduce the number of
accidental discharges while loading or unloading. Some feel that this
problem is better addressed through training, while others like the extra
margin of safety provided for novice users. Some would question why a
novice would have a semi-automatic in the first place, but it remains a
fact that many do.
I personally own two semi-automatics with magazine safeties, and one
without, and I don't see much difference for my own use. If my wife ever
wants to learn how to shoot, however, I intend to start her on one with
a magazine safety.
Matt Moore
John Fluke Mfg. Co.
standard disclaimers applycramer@uunet.UU.NET (Clayton Cramer) (06/07/91)
In article <35246@mimsy.umd.edu>, snitor!petert@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Toth) writes: # In article <35140@mimsy.umd.edu>, jalden@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Joshua M. Alden) writes: # # I would like it to have the following characteristics: # #[...] # # I've been looking around, and I haven't found a firearm which meets # #all these criteria. I thought I'd found it in the Colt Officer's .45, # #but that's got a magazine-drop safety. Anyone know of a firearm which # #fits all or most of my criteria, or am I dreaming? Unless the Colt Officer's is radically different from the other Colt .45s, it does NOT have a magazine safety. # Does disabling/removing the magazine-drop safety void the warranty ? # If not, ... # # Apropos: for the longest time i've been puzzled by magazine safeties. # Can anyone explain what are they good for besides rendering the gun less # than useless while reloading ? # # Peter Toth The reason for the magazine safety is to make it impossible to fire the gun when the magazine is out (like when cleaning the gun). The theory is that too many people are killed by accident because they forgot to clear the chamber after removing the magazine. It seems unlikely to me, but then again, lawyers don't keep my genitals in a little box, as is done at the firearms makers. -- Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer My opinions, all mine! They can have my urine sample when they pry it from my dead, cold fingers. "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed;" -- from James Madison's rough draft of the Second Amendment.
boardman%cancer.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu (06/08/91)
In article <35347@mimsy.umd.edu>, optilink!cramer@uunet.UU.NET (Clayton Cramer) writes: #In article <35246@mimsy.umd.edu>, snitor!petert@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Toth) writes: ## In article <35140@mimsy.umd.edu>, jalden@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Joshua M. Alden) writes: ## # I would like it to have the following characteristics: ## #[...] ## # I've been looking around, and I haven't found a firearm which meets ## #all these criteria. I thought I'd found it in the Colt Officer's .45, ## #but that's got a magazine-drop safety. Anyone know of a firearm which ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ## #fits all or most of my criteria, or am I dreaming? # #Unless the Colt Officer's is radically different from the other #Colt .45s, it does NOT have a magazine safety. # #Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer My opinions, all mine! #They can have my urine sample when they pry it from my dead, cold fingers. #"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed;" -- #from James Madison's rough draft of the Second Amendment. This has been re-posted enough times that I feel I must respond! I have a series 80 stainless Colt Officer's model, and it most certainly does _NOT_ have a magazine safety!!!! I have seen many other Colts, of all types, but have never seen one based on the 1911 with a magazine-drop safety!!!!! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= |**I _AM_ a member of a well-regulated militia - self-regulated, that is!!!!**| | Bob Boardman,Albuquerque,New Mexico - NRA LIFE, NMSSA, Zia Rifle&Pistol Club| | internet:boardman@unmb.unm.edu bitnet:BOARDMAN@UNMB | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=