jholand%peruvian@hellgate.utah.edu (John Holand) (05/23/91)
Does any one have any experience with using "laser sights" on a 9mm pistol. I have a friend interesting in using one to mount on a psitol that he has primarily for home defense. The reason being that he wears glasses and does not know if he could use his pistol accurately if he could not get his glasses on. I am concerned about the laser sights that projects a red dot that you place on the target not the type with a scope were you super-impose a red dot on the target. I have seen an used these for rifles but they all looked to big for a pistol. Any help is appreciated John R. Holand alias>skiBum
joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch) (05/24/91)
In article <34785@mimsy.umd.edu>, jholand%peruvian@hellgate.utah.edu (John Holand) writes:
# Does any one have any experience with using "laser sights"
# on a 9mm pistol. I have a friend interesting in using
# one to mount on a psitol that he has primarily for
# home defense. The reason being that he wears glasses
# and does not know if he could use his pistol
# accurately if he could not get his glasses on.
# I am concerned about the laser sights that
# projects a red dot that you place on the target
# not the type with a scope were you super-impose
# a red dot on the target. I have seen an used these for rifles
# but they all looked to big for a pistol.
I've been interested in laser sights also. The thing that holds me
back is that my home defense gun is also my concealed carry gun and
although the laser sights are very compact nowdays, they still are
kind of big for concealed carry. Taking the laser mount off when
I want I want to carry concealed would be mucho hassle. One of the
more interesting mounts I saw for pistols was one that mounted on
the front of the trigger guard. It looked very easy to put on.
Combat/Self-Defense Handguns volume 9 no. 2 had an interesting
article on page 5 on night sights. One item I found intriguing
was a mount from Laser Products that mounted under the frame of
a semi-automatic pistol and would take either a laser or a tactical
light. They said the flash light had a very tight beam and could
be used as a aiming device in a pinch. They said that they had
no trouble hitting the center of a silhouette from the hip at
15 yards with just the tactical light. They said that there is
another tactical light called the Night Stalker, that actually
projects a cross hair, but it isn't available in the U.S. yet.
I think this is a neat idea, since you can carry the gun and
the flashlight and still have a hand free to open doors and stuff.
I wear glasses too and what experts suggest is to practice some of
the time wearing regular protective glasses, instead of your
prescriptiom glasses. I'm somewhat nearsighted and I find that it
makes little difference whether I'm wearing my glasses or not. The
target is a little blurry, but the sights actually look a little
clearer without my glasses and for aimed fire the target is out of
focus anyway. You also have to consider that in a home defense
situation it will probably be too dark to see your sights anyway
even if you have time to aim.
What I would be concerned about if the degree of vision impairment
is such that your friend can't positivly identify his target before
firing. It would be pretty horrible to shoot a member of his family or
one of his kid's friends by mistake. If that is the case I would
suggest his grab his glasses first, then his gun.
--
Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809
joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) (05/25/91)
#From: joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch) #I've been interested in laser sights also. The thing that holds me #back is that my home defense gun is also my concealed carry gun and #although the laser sights are very compact nowdays, they still are #kind of big for concealed carry. Taking the laser mount off when #I want I want to carry concealed would be mucho hassle. ... #One item I found intriguing #was a mount from Laser Products that mounted under the frame of #a semi-automatic pistol and would take either a laser or a tactical #light. They said the flash light had a very tight beam and could #be used as a aiming device in a pinch. One factor to consider about the ordinary laser sights/projectors in this context is that mounting them appears to be just as much hassle as mounting a scope; so if you took it off, you'd have to sight-in again when you re-mounted it -- it wouldn't be automatically re-zeroed and allow simple on-and-off. So it would not be feasible to frequently switch the laser on and off the same gun, unless you have a range in your basement and sighting-in is your idea of a fun evening every day... :-) If a non-laser mini-flashlight will do, though, there IS an alternative for certain models of automatics. At least one company makes a replacement magazine (or an add-on for an existing magazine; not sure) that holds a mini-flashlight at the bottom, so it projects forward under the grip. So you could carry the piece with the regular magazine, and then just replace the magazine with this flashlight-mount one for use in home defense in the dark. When installed, it's like you're holding a U at the bottom: the slide & barrel project forward above your hand, and the flashlight projects forward below your hand. I've seen writeups on this in at least one gun mag (SWAT, maybe?) where they liked it. I *think* these are made by Eagle, but I'm running on memory here. [I know I just got an ad in the mail from Eagle, and I know I just saw this product listed in some recently-received brochure, but I can't be sure they are the same ad! :-( I'm at work, and all that stuff is at home, & I won't be able to post again until Tuesday.] There are obvious limitations -- if you have to change magazines, you lose your light. [But if you have to change magazines in an in-home firefight this may be the least of your problems! Time to drag out the belt-fed weaponry... :-)] The product only works with or is made for certain guns, and you have to be using one of those. I cannot believe that adding this extra weight to a loaded mag is good for the magazine catch assembly in the gun. Having the flashlight underneath the grip limits the kind of two-handed hold you can use without masking the flashlight beam or deflecting the light so that it doesn't point correctly. A flashlight mounted on a replaceable magazine has to have some wobble and cannot be as well zeroed as one screwed to the frame. [Or slide. But I doubt any flashlight will work after one shot in a slide-mount! I can only recall frame-mounts, anyway.] But the beam is probably wide enough, when compared with a laser dot, to make the inaccuracy due to wobble of the magazine-mount unimportant at the close ranges being considered. As I recall, it's relatively cheap, and might be worth trying out on spec. Heck, it's always good to have some excuse to buy a new toy... Regards, Will wmartin@stl-06sima.army.mil OR wmartin@st-louis-emh2.army.mil
wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) (05/28/91)
I wrote: #If a non-laser mini-flashlight will do, though, there IS an alternative #for certain models of automatics. At least one company makes a #replacement magazine (or an add-on for an existing magazine; not sure) #that holds a mini-flashlight at the bottom, so it projects forward under #the grip. #I *think* these are made by Eagle, but I'm running on memory here. Here I am again! They ARE made by Eagle; I have the ad here with me. They are called "Nite-Mag"s and are made in several models, both with and without magazines, so you can convert your own mags or buy them with the Eagle "Alpha-Mag" high-capacity magazines. They are available for Colt .45, 10mm, .38 Super, Colt Officer's Model, SIG P-220, Ruger, Beretta, & Taurus. The flashlight appears to be the MagLite Mini-Mag, but that is nowhere stated in the brochure. The light is modified to use a pressure switch on a wire extending from the rear of the magazine basepad. [One thing that comes to mind is that this arrangement, if the pressure switch is firmly attached to the gun, may interfere with the magazine being ejected, and would certainly cause the light and used mag to dangle from the switch if you had to change mags. There appears to be no rapid way to switch from one light-equipped magazine to another, since the switch and wire from the first one would still be attached to the gun. If the switch was *not* firmly attached to the gun, I wouldn't trust it to stay in place to work, especially with sweaty hands. All in all, this is a system that will work for one magazine-full of rounds; I wouldn't expect to be able to reload...] The brochure and price list I have seem a little sloppy in the details; there are items listed on the brochure that are not on the price list and vice-versa. So I'm not going to list stock numbers. The "law Enforcement/Gov't" price list I have cites $35.95 for the flashlight, bracket, & basepad assembly and $59.96 for the models with the magazines included. (That's about a buck and a half off the price for the magazines by themselves.) Eagle is at 5195 West 58th Ave. Suite 300, Arvada CO 80002, (303) 426-8100. Regards, Will wmartin@stl-06sima.army.mil OR wmartin@st-louis-emh2.army.mil
gary@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Gary Trouette) (05/29/91)
In article <34878@mimsy.umd.edu> wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) writes:
##From: joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch)
##I've been interested in laser sights also. The thing that holds me
##back is that my home defense gun is also my concealed carry gun and
##although the laser sights are very compact nowdays, they still are
##kind of big for concealed carry. Taking the laser mount off when
##I want I want to carry concealed would be mucho hassle.
#One factor to consider about the ordinary laser sights/projectors in
#this context is that mounting them appears to be just as much hassle as
#mounting a scope; so if you took it off, you'd have to sight-in again
#when you re-mounted it -- it wouldn't be automatically re-zeroed and
#allow simple on-and-off. So it would not be feasible to frequently
#switch the laser on and off the same gun, unless you have a range in
#your basement and sighting-in is your idea of a fun evening every day... :-)
#
#
#Regards, Will
#wmartin@stl-06sima.army.mil OR wmartin@st-louis-emh2.army.mil
Well I don't know about this. I have a B-square mount on my rifle
and I have no problem what-so-ever with popping it off to do
serious plinking without benefit of "accuracy". Everytime I screw
it back on, my AR-15 shoots just as well as it did before. Perhaps this
is from the design of the AR or of B^2, but B^2 makes laser mounts for
pistols as well (below the barrel I believe). Personally I would give
it a shot (pun intended :) )
-gary@eleazar.dartmouth.eduwmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) (05/29/91)
Yet one more comment.... The latest (July) issue of GUNS magazine arrived in yesterday's mail. It contains an article on night/low-light shooting in which the Nite-Mag is illustrated and described. Unfortunately, the points I mentioned about reloading and magazine ejection are not addressed. The illustration shows the switch wire being very short, with not enough slack to allow the magazine with the flashlight on it to even get out of the gun while the switch is still attached. So I found the depth of coverage in this article to be lacking, but it is an easy way for those interested to get a look at the item and an idea of how it is used. Regards, Will wmartin@stl-06sima.army.mil OR wmartin@st-louis-emh2.army.mil
hollen@UCSD.EDU (Dion Hollenbeck) (05/30/91)
# #mounting a scope; so if you took it off, you'd have to sight-in again
# #when you re-mounted it -- it wouldn't be automatically re-zeroed and
# #allow simple on-and-off. So it would not be feasible to frequently
# #switch the laser on and off the same gun, unless you have a range in
# #your basement and sighting-in is your idea of a fun evening every day... :-)
This is not necessarily true, it all depends on the mounts.
I have a 4-12 power scope on my Winchester M70 .223 in
Kimber lever action mounts. These mounts are DESIGNED to
be removeable. After each session at the range, I remove
the scope, clean the rifle, wrap the scope up in a protective
flannel bag and store it away. The next day at the range, I
remount the scope by sliding it on the base and twisting the
two levers 1/2 turn. Without any adjustment, the scope is
zeroed in just as it was the last time. If accuracy is of
importance, I consistently turn in less than 1" groups, and
about 25% of the time, less than .75". Mounts for pistols
which are designed to be removed are available, however,
I have mostly seen them on large frame revolvers. I am not
so sure that such a thing exists for something like a small
concealed carry gun (or do you have a large purse available?).
--
-----
Dion Hollenbeck (619) 455-5590 x2814
Megatek Corporation, 9645 Scranton Road, San Diego, CA 92121
uunet!megatek!hollen or hollen@megatek.uucpboardman%cancer.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu (06/05/91)
I feel that I should point out something regarding the subject of Laser sights on home-defense guns which I don't believe has been mentioned before in this thread. When I was talking to an employee at a local police/ military/gun store, he strongly recommended against laser sights for the following reason: if you're in your home at night and it's dark, and you hear a noise and take your laser-sighted gun to investigate, and you detect an intruder and turn on your laser, what do you see??? Answer: a 1/2" red dot of light on something! How can you possibly identify a target as friend or foe under these circumstances? A good lawyer could have a field day in court if you were to actually shoot someone with no better identification than this! Additionally, the red laser makes a fine target for the intruder to shoot at if he is also armed. I was told our local SWAT personnel do not use lasers at all. Their entry weapons are all mounted with extremely high- intensity flashlights equipped with pressure switches like a laser. This allows them to not only identify their targets properly, but also blinds the target momentarily (he shined one of these flashlights in my face in the store in normal daylight, and even with light-adjusted vision, it did blind me momentarily - they _ARE_ bright!!!). These arguments seem to make a lot of sense, and should be considered by anyone thinking about a Laser sight. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= |*Write Your Congressreps!**Join the NRA!**Send them money!**Buy more guns!!!*| | Bob Boardman,Albuquerque,New Mexico - NRA LIFE, NMSSA, Zia Rifle&Pistol Club| | internet:boardman@unmb.unm.edu bitnet:BOARDMAN@UNMB | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
petert@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Toth) (06/05/91)
In article <1991May31.095015.27826@doug.cae.wisc.edu> andy@DEC-Lite.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) writes:
#[Moderator's note - this thread has left the relm of rec.hunting.
#Please direct followups to rec.guns or talk.politics.guns. tjr]
#
#Don't get me wrong; I like shotguns and they're wonderful for some
#situations, such as those with two people or some space.
#
..or for stationary defense, particularly when it's
the only reasonably accessible tool, as it is here in Canada,
(getting a handgun here is the same hassle as a machinegun in the States),
or when you realize you may need one sooner than 7 days...
Peter Tothjeffl@servprod.inel.gov (Jeff Later) (06/06/91)
In article <35228@mimsy.umd.edu> boardman%cancer.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu writes:
#
# I feel that I should point out something regarding the subject of
# Laser sights on home-defense guns which I don't believe has been mentioned
# before in this thread. When I was talking to an employee at a local police/
# military/gun store, he strongly recommended against laser sights for the
# following reason: if you're in your home at night and it's dark, and you hear
# a noise and take your laser-sighted gun to investigate, and you detect an
# intruder and turn on your laser, what do you see??? Answer: a 1/2" red
# dot of light on something! How can you possibly identify a target as friend
# or foe under these circumstances? A good lawyer could have a field day in
# court if you were to actually shoot someone with no better identification
# than this! Additionally, the red laser makes a fine target for the intruder
# to shoot at if he is also armed. I was told our local SWAT personnel do not
# use lasers at all. Their entry weapons are all mounted with extremely high-
# intensity flashlights equipped with pressure switches like a laser. This
# allows them to not only identify their targets properly, but also blinds
# the target momentarily (he shined one of these flashlights in my face in
# the store in normal daylight, and even with light-adjusted vision, it did
# blind me momentarily - they _ARE_ bright!!!). These arguments seem to make
# a lot of sense, and should be considered by anyone thinking about a Laser
# sight.
OK, I'm convinced!! - now, where do I get one of these "portable Nite-Sun type"
lights w/ pressure switch???
With Much Thanks! Jeff Later jeffl@pmafire.inel.gov
***Opinions are my fault only.***boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (06/07/91)
In article <35271@mimsy.umd.edu>, jeffl@servprod.inel.gov (Jeff Later) writes: #In article <35228@mimsy.umd.edu> boardman%cancer.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu writes: ## I was told our local SWAT personnel do not ## use lasers at all. Their entry weapons are all mounted with extremely high- ## intensity flashlights equipped with pressure switches like a laser. This ## allows them to not only identify their targets properly, but also blinds ## the target momentarily (he shined one of these flashlights in my face in ## the store in normal daylight, and even with light-adjusted vision, it did ## blind me momentarily - they _ARE_ bright!!!). These arguments seem to make ## a lot of sense, and should be considered by anyone thinking about a Laser ## sight. # #OK, I'm convinced!! - now, where do I get one of these "portable Nite-Sun type" #lights w/ pressure switch??? One source is Adventurers Outpost. If you call 1-800-762-7471, you can get a catalog. They sell lights and mounts (and some neat shotgun grips). -- Mickey R. Boyd | "God is a comedian playing to an FSU Computer Science | audience too afraid to laugh." Technical Support Group | email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | - Voltaire
boardman%cancer.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu (06/08/91)
#In article <35271@mimsy.umd.edu>, jeffl@servprod.inel.gov (Jeff Later) writes: ## ##OK, I'm convinced!! - now, where do I get one of these "portable Nite-Sun type" ##lights w/ pressure switch??? # #One source is Adventurers Outpost. If you call 1-800-762-7471, you can #get a catalog. They sell lights and mounts (and some neat shotgun grips). #-- # Mickey R. Boyd | "God is a comedian playing to an # FSU Computer Science | audience too afraid to laugh." # Technical Support Group | # email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | - Voltaire The flashlight w/pressure switch I was referring to was a 2-C cell type for shotguns or SMG's - it would be too big for a pistol. They are available from QUARTERMASTER SALES, 7201 Avenida La Costa N.E., Albuquerque, New Mexico 87110 - Catalog $2.00 refundable on first order, (800) 634-8651 (orders only!) or (505) 884-8822 information & questions. I have no connection with this company other than having purchased things from them in the past. They also advertise in Shotgun News. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= |**I _AM_ a member of a well-regulated militia - self-regulated, that is!!!!**| | Bob Boardman,Albuquerque,New Mexico - NRA LIFE, NMSSA, Zia Rifle&Pistol Club| | internet:boardman@unmb.unm.edu bitnet:BOARDMAN@UNMB | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=