larock@software.org (Curt Larock) (06/05/91)
My wife and I want to buy a gun - but neither of us has any experience with firearms (I fired a rifle about 10 years ago). Our main uses would be personal protection and target shooting. So far I've joined the NRA, read a pile of books (the Truth About Self Defense, Armed and Female, the Street-Smart Gun Book, and a couple of others), and subscribed to rec.guns. What should I do now? What dumb mistakes should I avoid? -- Curt Larock Software Productivity Consortium larock@software.org 2214 Rock Hill Rd. Herndon VA 22070 [MODERATOR: As always, a hearty "thanks" to those who take the time to be *responsible* in their procurement and use of firearms!!! Okay, folks, let's generate some good responses....]
boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (06/07/91)
In article <35259@mimsy.umd.edu>, larock@software.org (Curt Larock) writes:
#My wife and I want to buy a gun - but neither of us has any experience
#with firearms (I fired a rifle about 10 years ago). Our main uses
#would be personal protection and target shooting.
Wow, you are a lot more organized than I was!
#So far I've joined the NRA, read a pile of books (the Truth About Self
#Defense, Armed and Female, the Street-Smart Gun Book, and a couple of
#others), and subscribed to rec.guns.
#
#What should I do now? What dumb mistakes should I avoid?
Well, if home defense is an issue, I would suggest buying a .357mag revolver.
(I am assuming you mean a handgun. If this is not true, the answer changes.)
Reasons follow:
1. Revolvers are more reliable than autos. If you need more than 6 rounds,
run. For defense, reliability is your TOP concern.
2. You should be able to find a set of grips that fit both you and your
wife's hands easier with a revolver (auto grip sizes are usually
determined by the frame, and are often too big for small hands).
3. A big revolver is a fearsome sight.
4. Revolvers usually need little or no work to get a decent trigger. Autos
sold with decent triggers are few and far between.
5. You can practice cheaply using .38special ammo, which is the most
common caliber in the world. You also have the option of using
full-power .357mag ammo.
6. Revolvers are generally more accurate "out of the box".
7. Revolvers don't care about the power level of your ammo for reliability.
Thus, you have more flexibility and few things to go wrong. If a
round, for whatever reason, does not go off you just pull the trigger
again. With an auto, you have to rack the slide.
For a particular gun, I would suggest a S&W model 19, or a S&W 686 (stainless).
Get about a 4"-6" barrel. Below this implies a huge fireball and inferior
ballistics. Above makes the gun a bit unwieldy. Purchase a S&W, Colt,
Ruger, or Dan Wesson. Stay away from Rossi, Astra, Taurus (though they are
cheaper; there is a reason).
If you do get such a gun, I would suggest purchasing a good MagLight along
with it (flashlight). Keep both by the bed. For ammo choice, call the
police. Ask them what they are authorized to carry in that caliber. If any
of the choices sound good, buy some of it. This can help in court (if you
ever have to actually shoot someone). To find out if any of the choices are
good, post again :-).
If you buy such a gun, you should end up with a handgun that that you can
count on and operate with a minimum of training/practice. After you have
shot it some (and become a gun nut :-) you can look into more esterotic
guns. A .357mag revolver is considered by some as a plodhorse. Well,
it's better to have an accurate reliable plodhorse than a 18 round
9mm DA hammer dropping magazine safety racehorse that jams every second
magazine and shoots 5" groups at 25'!! By the way, due to many police
departments "changing over" to autos (mostly for the wrong reasons), there
are some great used buys on the market for .357mag revolvers. If you have
the money, buy new. If not, be very careful. Gun actions often depend upon
tolerances in the thousandths of an inch, and there are a lot of screwed
up guns out there.
With any defense gun, practice some with the ammo you keep in the gun. More
practice with cheaper reloads is also needed. You should run your real
defense ammo through the gun both to get used to it and to occasionally
have to replace it (don't keep the same ammo in the gun for years and years!!).
I usually run one cylinder-full of my "real stuff" through the gun each time
I go shooting (and about 100 rounds of cheaper reloads). I buy a new box of
"real" ammo about once every 6 months. Also, since it is unlikely that you
will be wearing muffs in a defense scenario, you might want to touch one off
with no hearing protection every once in awhile (this in NOT good for your
ears, but may keep you breathing). Guns are LOUD, especially in an enclosed
space. Please note that I said "you may want to . . .". You also may not want
to, at least regularly. I do it, but it is certainly debatable.
If there are any kiddies in the house, invest in a lockbox for the gun. They
make some with the Cypher-lock style pushbuttons, which can be opened quickly
by touch.
If you buy a gun for defense, make sure you can pull a trigger on a bad guy.
Do some hard thinking about it, and if you have doubts you might be better
off with a baseball bat (defense wise). If you don't think about it now,
you probably will at the time of excitement, which is not good. If you
cannot use the gun, all you have succeeded in doing is giving the bad guy
a weapon to use ON YOU!
As a final note, please be careful about gun store workers. I have often
run into folks that feel they must provide an answer to any questions,
regardless of accuracy. Also, remember that these guys SELL GUNS, and
are very likely to have a biased opinion as to what "you need" based on
what they are overstocked with!! If you find a gun store that does not try
to BS you, cherish it and go back often.
The above is IMHO. Please feel free to email if you have any questions about
what I have written. Have fun with your new gun!!
--
Mickey R. Boyd | "God is a comedian playing to an
FSU Computer Science | audience too afraid to laugh."
Technical Support Group |
email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | - Voltaire joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch) (06/07/91)
In article <35259@mimsy.umd.edu>, larock@software.org (Curt Larock) writes:
# My wife and I want to buy a gun - but neither of us has any experience
# with firearms (I fired a rifle about 10 years ago). Our main uses
# would be personal protection and target shooting.
#
# So far I've joined the NRA, read a pile of books (the Truth About Self
# Defense, Armed and Female, the Street-Smart Gun Book, and a couple of
# others), and subscribed to rec.guns.
#
# What should I do now? What dumb mistakes should I avoid?
If you read the books above, then you probably know most of
the important points. A few things you should concentrate on.
1. Make sure you are familar with your state laws concerning
the use of deadly force. What is considered legitmate self-defense
in one state will get you put in prison in another. Also try to
find how your local DA and police apply those laws in practice.
Keep in mind that if you get charged with homicide, you might
end up bankrupt even if you get "win" in court. Run through
the likely self-defense senarios through your head and figure
out the appropriate response ahead of time.
2. Take some basic firearm safety and handling courses. The NRA
should be able to tell you where to find them.
3. Make sure you find a gun you are comfortable with. If you and
your wife aren't comfortable with the same type of gun, consider
buying two guns. Many gun ranges will let you rent guns to try
them out.
4. If you aren't going to practice fairly often, say once a month
or so, stay away from semiauto pistols and buy a revolver. That
is not to say that you shouldn't buy a revolver anyway. Autos need
to be kept pretty clean and to have the magazines rotated periodically.
Buy some extra magazines so you can let your magazine springs "rest".
--
Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809
joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982moore@tc.fluke.COM (Matt Moore) (06/07/91)
In article <35259@mimsy.umd.edu> larock@software.org (Curt Larock) writes:
#My wife and I want to buy a gun - but neither of us has any experience
#with firearms (I fired a rifle about 10 years ago). Our main uses
#would be personal protection and target shooting.
#
#So far I've joined the NRA, read a pile of books (the Truth About Self
#Defense, Armed and Female, the Street-Smart Gun Book, and a couple of
#others), and subscribed to rec.guns.
#
#What should I do now? What dumb mistakes should I avoid?
#--
#Curt Larock Software Productivity Consortium
#larock@software.org 2214 Rock Hill Rd.
# Herndon VA 22070
#
#[MODERATOR: As always, a hearty "thanks" to those who take the time to
#be *responsible* in their procurement and use of firearms!!! Okay, folks,
#let's generate some good responses....]
The next thing you should (both) do is take a "basic defensive firearms"
course from an NRA certified instructor. Local gun stores can usually
refer you to one, or you can call the NRA at 202-828-6281. Expect to spend
$100 per head or more; its a good investment.
Unless you are in a hurry for some reason, you should wait until after
taking the course before actually buying a gun (most courses will let you
rent one). Its easy to buy a gun that is not really suitable for you, and
gun store clerks will often advise you to buy the most expensive gun in
the shop (or the one they are having trouble getting rid of) instead of
the most suitable.
Since you give personal protection as your main reason for gun ownership,
you should consider buying two guns. All guns require maintenance from
time to time, and most people pay a gunsmith to do it. If you only have
one gun and you don't want to be without it for 2-4 weeks, you will tend
to put off maintenance, making the gun less likely to work reliably when
you need it to.
Now for my personal two cents about which guns to buy: I would suggest a
matched pair of Ruger GP-100 .357 revolvers, with target sights, 4"
barrels, and made of stainless steel. Expect to pay $350 each. Second
choice: one Ruger GP-100 as above and one Ruger SP-101 .38 Special
revolver with fixed sights and a 3" barrel, also in stainless steel. I
think a matched pair is the best, because you only have to practice with
one, but if your hands are a lot bigger than your wife's then no single
gun may feel good to both of you. I've found that Rugers are the best buy
for the average shooter: simple, durable, and accurate. Smith & Wesson and
Colt revolvers are have slightly higher quality but they seem to be in the
shop more often.
Matt Moore
John Fluke Mfg. Co.
standard disclaimers applybamford@ihlpf.att.com (Harold E Bamford) (06/07/91)
In article <35259@mimsy.umd.edu> larock@software.org (Curt Larock) writes:
#My wife and I want to buy a gun
...
#What should I do now? What dumb mistakes should I avoid?
First thing is to take a firearms safety course from a NRA
certified instructor. Even though I had been shooting for years, I
learned a lot when I took this course. In my case, this was a 2
hour session, one on one, with guy that had been shooting pretty
much his entire life. Lots of discussion on safety, shooting
techniques, and (of course) the "best" gun to own. I won't discuss
this last because I firmly believe there is no such thing.
Given this course, you will be in a much better position to choose
a gun. Books are great, but nothing beats the experience that goes
with walking off the range smelling of gunpowder and carrying a target
full of appropriately placed holes (and smiling foolishly).
-- Harold Bamfordhale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale) (06/08/91)
In article <35259@mimsy.umd.edu> larock@software.org (Curt Larock) writes:
[ about preparing to buy his first gun ]
#What should I do now? What dumb mistakes should I avoid?
You have done a good preparation job. Now it's time to find something
that both you and your wife can reliably and comfortably shoot. Try
going to ranges that rent guns. Handle each one that seems like a
possible candidate. Select the ones that fit your hands and have a
decent sight picture for your circumstances. BTW, indoor ranges usually
have semi-poor lighting, much like the conditions under which you may
use the gun in a defense situation, so an indoor range is probably best
for the evaluation. Now that you have some candidate guns, try them out.
For those that can handle different loads, try several loads (e.g.,
.38 special vs .38 +P vs .357 mag). See how well each gun instinctively
shoots. See how comfortable they are - do they beat up your hand after
50 rounds? See how easy it is to align the sights in a hurry.
This process should probably be repeated at several ranges (assuming
that your area has several). While you are at the ranges ask about
gun shops. You want to find one that knows what it is doing, one that
will solve your problem rather than one that wants to sell you the
most profitable gun. If your area has gun clubs you should check them
out. The people at the clubs usually have a lot of experience and can
tell you what to avoid and what works well for them. Of course,
you will encounter a lot of opinion in these members so make your
own judgements. Overall I have found that gun club members are quite
unselfish and definitely willing to help.
If your area has a firearms safety course I suggest signing up for it.
They are offered by the junior colleges in my area. The local course
is taught by police officers who are knowledgeable in guns (not all
officers are; to many the gun is just another tool, like the night stick).
Above all, enjoy!
Bob Hale ...!ucsd!btree!hale
619-535-3234 ...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu
[MODERATOR: I agree with Bob's approach. The only extra suggestion
I would make beyond his text is that you *first* get some more experiences
shooting *anything*, perhaps with the help of kindly locals over on your
side of the Potomac. Get some of the complete-novice jitters out of your
system before you begin evaluating weapons. I am reminded of the experience
of my wife in this matter: the first centerfire pistol she fired was a
rather large frame revolver using mid-power .38's. She was a little
intimidated, not for recoil but just because of the novelty. After a little
more trigger time on a .22 revolver, just getting used to handling a firearm
that isn't several feet long, I had her try the .38 again. She had no
problem at all, and in fact now prefers this. Had she been out shopping,
then based upon the very first experience she would never have acquired the
fine/tuned combat .357 that she now uses every time out to the range.]andy@DEC-Lite.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) (06/08/91)
In article <35323@mimsy.umd.edu> boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes:
# 2. You should be able to find a set of grips that fit both you and your
# wife's hands easier with a revolver (auto grip sizes are usually
# determined by the frame, and are often too big for small hands).
As near as I can tell, the "often too big for small hands" comment
isn't true. How about telling me which specific guns are being
referred to so I can take my friends with small hands to see for
myself?
My experience has been the exact opposite. I have medium large hands
(for example, the finger grooves in the hogue grips on S&W Classic
hunters are too close together so I can't put my fingers in them) and
there are guns that I can't really use because they're too small.
However, many of the novice women I go shooting with have tiny hands,
and they don't have any problems with big guns, including semi-autos.
(Their thumbs rarely reach the slide release when they're shooting,
but they can turn the gun in their hand to take care of it when
necessary without being appreciably slower than someone without that
handicap.)
They do have to learn how to rack the slide using their strong muscles
while I can use weak ones, but that doesn't bother them either.
-andy
--
UUCP: {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!neon.stanford.edu!andy
ARPA: andy@neon.stanford.edu
BELLNET: (415) 723-3088boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (06/11/91)
In article <35382@mimsy.umd.edu>, andy@DEC-Lite.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) writes:
#
#As near as I can tell, the "often too big for small hands" comment
#isn't true. How about telling me which specific guns are being
#referred to so I can take my friends with small hands to see for
#myself?
Sure. Just about any high capacity 9mm will have a grip too large to attain
an "ideal" grip. The "ideal" grip is one in which the axis of the bore
lines up with the forearm. When the gun is held in this position, it will
recoil straight up. Also, the most "meat" is then behind the grip to aid in
recoil absorbtion. A "too large" grip forces the shooter to curl the hand
farther around the gun, so the trigger finger can get good purchase on the
trigger. This places the backstrap of the gun beneath the thumb, instead of
centered in the web of the hand (and thus the forearm).
A characteristic of guns that have both a DA and SA "trigger" is that the
"reach" for each is different. Thus, many folks can properly hold a DA
high capacity 9mm and reach the trigger IF THE HAMMER IS COCKED. To be
able to double action the trigger, the gun must be shifted around.
By the way, in case you have not noticed, it is not the size of the entire
hand that affects this particular issue. It is the length of the trigger
finger.
Another size issue is more at the extremes. For example, a person with
small hands must be able to get enough "curl" around the grips to be able
to control the gun in recoil. If the grips are way too large, the hands will
slide around on the grips. Conversely, if the grips are too small, some part
of the gun will probably bang into one of your fingers (or thumb) and cause
pain (a common place is right under the trigger guard).
Note: I have seen folks shoot great without an ideal grip. If you never
knew about it, it might not bother you. You could learn to compensate
for a "crooked" grip and be a great shot. However, if you do know
about it . . . .
Note: This "ideal" grip is the one described in every How-To-Shoot book I
have ever seen. You get more control, and more consistant hand
movement (when squeezing the trigger).
Note: A more complete way to state the phenomena is "the grip is too large
for small hands to properly reach the trigger". Properly is a
relative term :-).
Note: For a couple of actual guns that have some or all of the above
problems, I would pick (just off the top of my head) the Beretta 92F,
the HK P7/M13, the Dessert Eagle, and all pre-new generation S&W autos
with more than a 10 round magazine.
#My experience has been the exact opposite. I have medium large hands
#(for example, the finger grooves in the hogue grips on S&W Classic
#hunters are too close together so I can't put my fingers in them) and
#there are guns that I can't really use because they're too small.
Making "generic" finger grooves on soft rubber grips makes some sense,
since the rubber will bend slightly to give a good fit. If the material
is hard (nylon or wood), then it is a bit silly to think they will fit
any hand on the planet. Grip manufacturers know this, and they also
know that most folks won't notice the difference unless they have hands
on the extremes. By the way, you sound like you would benifit from a
set of Bill Jordan grips (who has fingers the size of bananas). They
do not have finger grooves, but they do enclose the backstrap of the gun
and give a "larger" feel. Anyway, I would stay away from hard finger
grooved grips unless you can try them out first (I shoot from a pair of
Herret's one time and almost broke my second finger!!).
#
#However, many of the novice women I go shooting with have tiny hands,
#and they don't have any problems with big guns, including semi-autos.
#(Their thumbs rarely reach the slide release when they're shooting,
#but they can turn the gun in their hand to take care of it when
#necessary without being appreciably slower than someone without that
#handicap.)
It is not the caliber of the gun so much as the "pull length". If it
matches up with the finger length (or close) it will work. As for the
thumbs reaching the slide release, they should not. Slide releases
should not be "hittable" while shooting, or they will lock the slide
back (and stop the gun). One should always use the off hand (or pull
the slide back) to release the slide, even in practice. The real test
would be to hand a person two guns, one which allows a straight-line
grip and one that does not, with all other things being equal. Then
they would both be shot, and any difference noted. Of course, this is
kind of hard to do . . . .
If you grab a CZ-75 (or one of the copies, or a Bren Ten), you will
notice that it does not feel like a 2 by 4 (like other high capacity 9's).
The reason for this is the deep curved "dip" at the top of the grip, which
allows the web of the hand to settle in closer to the trigger. Now we come
to one of my pet peeves. My CZ is a real one (from Czechoslovok), and it
came with thin hard plastic grips. The grips actually "set" into the gun,
and thus they do not add hardly any circumference to the gun. The frame of
the gun itself is skeletonized in the grip area to facilitate the smallest
grip possible. This is as close to perfect as you can get (on a 16 round
9mm). The problem is with the copies of this gun. All CZ copies I have seen
(the AT-84, TZ-75, and P-9) all come with either wood or rubber grips. Both
of these materials have to be considerably thicker than hard plastic to
remain stable. Thus, the brilliant gun manufactuers have managed to take
a solution to the 9mm big grip problem and screw it up!! I have a beautiful
set of wood grips for my CZ that will remain in the closet forever (this is
how I found out about the importance of grip size). I wish they would
include a set of hard plastic grips with the guns (they must cost about $0.17).
--
Mickey R. Boyd | "God is a comedian playing to an
FSU Computer Science | audience too afraid to laugh."
Technical Support Group |
email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | - Voltaire