boebert@SCTC.COM (Earl Boebert) (05/25/91)
My boy just made Long Range Recon Patrol status, and an ex-LRRP on the net suggested that a really good survival knife would be an appropriate present. So my question to this group of experts is: which one? Earl
utidjian@remarque.berkeley.edu (David Utidjian) (05/26/91)
In article <34887@mimsy.umd.edu> boebert@SCTC.COM (Earl Boebert) writes:
#My boy just made Long Range Recon Patrol status, and an ex-LRRP on the
#net suggested that a really good survival knife would be an
#appropriate present. So my question to this group of experts is:
#which one?
#
#Earl
My favorites are the USMC combat knife by Camillus or
Ka-Bar, for under $30 you cant beat it for strength, balance, and
practicallity. It isn't very "pretty" but it is extremely tough.
My other favorite is the LMF by Gerber. It is all of the above
AND "pretty" though some might prefer to call it "handsome".
It will set you back about $100-$120, comes with an excellent sheath.
Get it without the sawteeth, they are worse than useless in
combat and have questionable value in survival situations.
Stay clear, if you can, from knives with lots of "bells and
whistles" they are either not very rugged or in their attempts to
be useful for everything become good for nothing.
I have had some practical experience in using many different
knives, though never in combat. But try sticking a dead deer in the
ribs, or anywhere, with a knife that has huge sawteeth and pulling
it back out and you will see what I mean. Sawteeth are out.
Then there is allways a Randall from Orlando, Florida.
These knives need no explanation, but it will cost you about $200 +.
All of the above knives are made in America. There are many
excellent foreign makes, Kershaw from Japan, and Puma from Germany,
to name a few. Bucks are not worth the metal that they are made of,
or maybe it is because of the metal they are made of.( sorry Buck
lovers ) I have somehow broken 4 out of 5 Bucks that I have owned
over the past 20 years.
I hope this helps...and congratulations to you and your son.
-Dave-
email: utidjian@remarque.berkeley.eduwmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) (05/28/91)
Ah, what a delightful topic! Considering you have dozens, if not hundreds, of models to choose from, this subject could go on for months! But lets try to narrow it down a bit. First off, though the best possible knife would come from a custom maker, the lead time and price may put this out of the question. Besides, the area I've been interested in is factory knives, so I'll just consider that. I always felt a multi-hundered-dollar custom knife wouldn't be what I'd want to crawl thru the mud with, and maybe lose, either in training or in real work. Considering what is meant by "survival knife", I'm going to lean toward a multi-use type of blade, as opposed to a double-edged dagger type. I'm not going to discuss hollow-handle models; as a LRRP, the man will have LBE and places to carry everything else he needs, and the vast majority of hollow-handle models are weaker than full-tang or reduced-tang types (except for Chris Reeve models turned out of solid bar stock, and those are semi-custom). The last thing a LRRP needs miles from home is a broken knife... If price is an important consideration, the previously-posted pointer to the USMC Ka-Bar style can't be beat. It's a great knife for the money. Camillus and Ontario are the main makers of those these days, and the wholesale price is around $16, with a list around $30. Take a look at the knife you're buying first, though -- I had one Camillus Marine model arrive in a mail-order shipment where the blade grind was defective and there was a distinct "step" in the thickness halfway-down the blade and the tip was ground dull. I've been playing with re-shaping that one over the years... Case is making a commemorative model of these now, but it's no better knife and with a higher price tag. Ka-Bar also has been making them for the collector market; same consideration. There are cheap Taiwanese and suchlike copies out there; avoid those. One advantage of this model is that it comes with a blackened/parkerized blade as standard, which is unavailable or an extra-cost option on many other knives. Non-reflectivity would be important in an LRRP knife. Another consideration is weight; every extra ounce you hump thru the boonies is a drag. So that will limit your consideration of some other knives. Randalls are great knives, but it's a sort of semi-custom type of operation, with standard models being hand-made, so the price is high and lead time is long -- the latest Randall catalog I saw gave a 2-year lead time. They do try to push knives being sent to active-duty Armed Forces members, and sometimes have some models in stock. There are dealers who carry Randall, but then you are paying them for their having invested the time in ordering and waiting for years, so the price is much greater. Ek Knives are worthy of consideration. They have a fine tradition since WWII, and are full-tang models as near to unbreakable as can be. There are a range of models with blade shapes like traditional Bowies and with spear-point-shaped blades; the latter either fully-sharpened on both edges or with a sharpened "false edge" partway down the blade top. Handles are walnut or micarta held on with removable screws (so the knife can be disassembled for thorough cleaning), or a simple wrapping of "550 cord" parachute cord. The sheaths are either leather or webbing (I prefer the latter) and also have some extra cord wrapped on them. Some models are available with blackened baldes (& I guess all if you order direct from the factory). They also make a reduced-cost model with a wood non-removable handle called the "Warrior" which wholesales for about $40 and lists for $70; the other Eks wholesale $70-$100 and list in the $100-$175 range. The cord-wrapped ones are least expensive. Two other brands I'd point you toward are Black Jack and Cold Steel. The knives are made overseas to their specs, which helps keep prices down. The Black Jack Mamba is a large fighting knife with a recurved blade (a slight concavity in the cutting edge) and is available blackened (wholesale $80; retail $125-$150). Their Marauder Mark I and IA are kukri-style knives with strong recurves; the IA has a bit of the top edge sharpened (wholesale ~$40; list ~$80/90). [The Bali-Song Bushmaster 150 is equivalent and a bit higher price; that's a different brand and US-made.] Two smaller BJ knives are the Anaconda I 8" Bowie-style ($80 list) and Archangel 5" blade "chute-knife" model ($65 wholesale; $100 retail). All these have Kraton handles. Cold Steel makes a range of tanto-style knives (that's a Japanese blade shape with a slightly curved single-edge blade and a very strong point originally designed to pierce armor). [There are a lot of cheap import tantos available, but again be wary -- Cold Steel advertises their models by driving them thru a car door and they emerge undamaged. Maybe unrealistic but impressive! The cheaper ones won't take the punishment.] They used to make a lower-cost "Recon Tanto" with a dull-finish blade that's been discontinued but might be available in some shops (I keep one of those in my desk as my "earthquake" knife, living here by the New Madrid fault... :-). Some models have longer blades, others are made of laminated steel, so there's a wide price range up to ~$200 retail, but the basic model is ~$75 wholesale. They make a large Bowie called the Trailmaster which might be a bit heavy for your purpose, and also a 6" blade Bowie that sells for under $50 called the SRK you might find a good choice. All have kraton handles. By the way, there's a magazine on the stands and available by subscription called "Fighting Knives", which not only has articles on the very subject, and reviews of knives, but also now has a business-reply "bingo" card for sending in to get free info from advertisers; this is a first in the knife press. You might want to pick up an issue and look it over before making your decision. You'll also see ads from a number of mail-order dealers where you can get better prices than the average Cutlery World or Remington store in the local mall. Regards, Will wmartin@stl-06sima.army.mil OR wmartin@st-louis-emh2.army.mil
Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) (05/29/91)
In article <34960@mimsy.umd.edu> wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) writes:
+Ah, what a delightful topic! Considering you have dozens, if not
+hundreds, of models to choose from, this subject could go on for months!
+But lets try to narrow it down a bit. First off, though the best
+possible knife would come from a custom maker, the lead time and
+price may put this out of the question. Besides, the area I've been
+interested in is factory knives, so I'll just consider that. I always
+felt a multi-hundered-dollar custom knife wouldn't be what I'd want to
+crawl thru the mud with, and maybe lose, either in training or in real work.
After while you get used to it. Plus, the confidence of having equipment
which won't fail you is nice. Howeverl, I hear there are problems with
equipment getting stolen when you are in the military.
+
+Considering what is meant by "survival knife", I'm going to lean toward
+a multi-use type of blade, as opposed to a double-edged dagger type.
I think the bowie pattern is the best thing going. I agree that a dagger
is of limited use.
+I'm not going to discuss hollow-handle models; as a LRRP, the man will
+have LBE and places to carry everything else he needs, and the vast
+majority of hollow-handle models are weaker than full-tang or
+reduced-tang types (except for Chris Reeve models turned out of solid
+bar stock, and those are semi-custom). The last thing a LRRP needs miles
+from home is a broken knife...
Yup. The original hollow handled blade, a Randall, was designed by
a medic, who figured his use of the knife would be limited, and probably
not too stressful.
+
+If price is an important consideration, the previously-posted pointer to
+the USMC Ka-Bar style can't be beat. It's a great knife for the money.
+Camillus and Ontario are the main makers of those these days, and the
+wholesale price is around $16, with a list around $30. Take a look at
+the knife you're buying first, though -- I had one Camillus Marine model
+arrive in a mail-order shipment where the blade grind was defective and
+there was a distinct "step" in the thickness halfway-down the blade and
+the tip was ground dull. I've been playing with re-shaping that one over
+the years... Case is making a commemorative model of these now, but it's
+no better knife and with a higher price tag. Ka-Bar also has been making
+them for the collector market; same consideration. There are cheap
+Taiwanese and suchlike copies out there; avoid those.
I've heard good and bad things about the USMC combat knives, aka. kabars.
There is however now one custom maker who's making beefier, and longer ones.
+
+Randalls are great knives, but it's a sort of semi-custom type of
+operation, with standard models being hand-made, so the price is high and
+lead time is long -- the latest Randall catalog I saw gave a 2-year lead
+time. They do try to push knives being sent to active-duty Armed Forces
+members, and sometimes have some models in stock. There are dealers who
+carry Randall, but then you are paying them for their having invested
+the time in ordering and waiting for years, so the price is much greater.
The dealers I've seen, SF Gun Exchange and Nordic Knives, seem to offer
close to list prices on Randalls, and they usually have a good stock.
However I had a model 1, and I was not impressed with the edge which it
came with. It wouldn't shave, cut rope, or even cut denim very well.
Ultimately I sold it. The problem with Randalls is they are all sabre
ground, not fully flat ground. This makes a stronger knife in a less-
than-fully-custom situation, which is what Randall is, but IMHO you
loose a lot of functionality.
BlackJack knives now has a fully flatground, 7" bladed, bowie, designed
by James Crowell. I hear they will have other knives designed by other
good custom makers in the future. Blade steel quality is only half what
it takes to make a good knife, good blade geometry is the other.
+
+Ek Knives are worthy of consideration. They have a fine tradition since
+WWII, and are full-tang models as near to unbreakable as can be. There
+are a range of models with blade shapes like traditional Bowies and with
+spear-point-shaped blades; the latter either fully-sharpened on both
+edges or with a sharpened "false edge" partway down the blade top.
+Handles are walnut or micarta held on with removable screws (so the
+knife can be disassembled for thorough cleaning), or a simple wrapping
+of "550 cord" parachute cord. The sheaths are either leather or webbing
+(I prefer the latter) and also have some extra cord wrapped on them.
+Some models are available with blackened baldes (& I guess all if you
+order direct from the factory). They also make a reduced-cost model with
+a wood non-removable handle called the "Warrior" which wholesales for
+about $40 and lists for $70; the other Eks wholesale $70-$100 and list
+in the $100-$175 range. The cord-wrapped ones are least expensive.
The problems I have with the Ek knives are:
1) they are stainless steel, hardened to about 59 Rc. This is damned
hard, and I'll bet they are tough to sharpen once they get dull.
2) the sheaths mostly have 2 velcro release straps. This is neither
fast, nor silent, two things a military person is likely to want. Once
the velcro wears out, I'm not sure how secure they'll be either.
3) The blades are too short (7" or so) for use in a serious campout
situation where you might have to make your own shelter. On the upside,
7" is near ideal for fighting.
+
+Two other brands I'd point you toward are Black Jack and Cold Steel. The
+knives are made overseas to their specs, which helps keep prices down.
+The Black Jack Mamba is a large fighting knife with a recurved blade (a
+slight concavity in the cutting edge) and is available blackened
+(wholesale $80; retail $125-$150). Their Marauder Mark I and IA are
+kukri-style knives with strong recurves; the IA has a bit of the top edge
+sharpened (wholesale ~$40; list ~$80/90). [The Bali-Song Bushmaster 150 is
+equivalent and a bit higher price; that's a different brand and US-made.]
+Two smaller BJ knives are the Anaconda I 8" Bowie-style ($80 list) and
+Archangel 5" blade "chute-knife" model ($65 wholesale; $100 retail). All
+these have Kraton handles.
BlackJack is making a good name for themselves, particularly since they
are getting license to make designs made by custom makers who have long
waiting lists. Actually, their Rheinhart kukri might be a pretty good
"knife", although it's too big to do fine work.
+
+Cold Steel makes a range of tanto-style knives (that's a Japanese blade
+shape with a slightly curved single-edge blade and a very strong point
+originally designed to pierce armor). [There are a lot of cheap import
+tantos available, but again be wary -- Cold Steel advertises their
+models by driving them thru a car door and they emerge undamaged. Maybe
+unrealistic but impressive! The cheaper ones won't take the punishment.]
+They used to make a lower-cost "Recon Tanto" with a dull-finish blade
+that's been discontinued but might be available in some shops (I keep
+one of those in my desk as my "earthquake" knife, living here by the New
+Madrid fault... :-). Some models have longer blades, others are made of
+laminated steel, so there's a wide price range up to ~$200 retail, but
+the basic model is ~$75 wholesale. They make a large Bowie called the
+Trailmaster which might be a bit heavy for your purpose, and also a 6"
+blade Bowie that sells for under $50 called the SRK you might find a
+good choice. All have kraton handles.
IMHO Cold Steels quality has been slipping in recent years. I have
a master tanto, but I don't use it anymore because it was tough to
maintain an edge on it with a stone at home, and because the steel
of the edge chipped out under, to be fair, what was unintentionally
abusive bevahior. My current knives however wouldn't chip out, they
would just bend, and I could fix that on a sharpening stone.
Reportedly Cold Steel carbon V knives such as the SRK were popular
in Desert Shield. The Trailmaster is too heavy for much carry, although
it could be made into a good knife by having it flat ground, and then
parkerizing or tefloning the blade to prevent rust.
+
+By the way, there's a magazine on the stands and available by
+subscription called "Fighting Knives", which not only has articles on
+the very subject, and reviews of knives, but also now has a
+business-reply "bingo" card for sending in to get free info from
+advertisers; this is a first in the knife press. You might want to pick
+up an issue and look it over before making your decision. You'll also
+see ads from a number of mail-order dealers where you can get better
+prices than the average Cutlery World or Remington store in the local mall.
Fighting Knives is OK, but the quality of the information imparted
is variable. Some of it is absoluate BS, while other stuff is quite
good. They had a review of the Cold Steel ATC chopper which absoluately
put the lie to Cold Steels claims, which is good. They also gave
alternatives
The Blade Magazine also has variable quality, with less emphasis on
fighting blades. The Blade is monthly. Knives Illustrated is quarterly,
and usually pretty good.
BTW, for those in the SF Bay Area, there will be a big knife show at
the SF Marriott Hotel on June 22 & 23rd.
--
Robert Allen, rja@sun.com DISCLAIMER: I disclaim everything.
"The intelligent man is one who has successfully fulfilled many
accomplishments, and is yet willing to learn more." - Ed Parkerboyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (05/30/91)
On this subject, I would say that it is almost impossible to find a knife
that has both combat and camp-chore utility. Thus, I suggest the purchase
of two knifes (you also get some redundancy). Also, for a LRRP the total
weight of the knifes would be a factor (for combat, an 18" short sword
would probably be the best as long as you didn't have to carry it).
For combat: the Gerber BMF knifes are nice. There was a model made up for
the Cutlery Shoppe (a mail order outfit) that has a 1" longer blade
and flat upper tang for a thumb-forward hold. I like this model
better than the normal Gerber ones (but then again, I was trained
to use the thumb forward :-).
Cold Steel makes a number of knifes suitable for combat. I
personally like the Magnum Tanto. Also, they make a really mean
modern version of the Gurka Kukuri knife. Now THAT'S a knife!
However, it looks a bit heavy for hiking (then again, the psych
advantage of such a weapon might help you pick up your feet).
These are just my personal favorites. Anyone who has been trained
to fight using edged weapons will have their own. Thus, if you want to
give this man a great present, I would suggest you get him a
Cutlery Shoppe catalog and a big gift certificate. They stock
lots and lots of great knifes, so I am sure he could find something
to his liking . . .
For general chores: I always carry a Victorinox (sp?) Swiss Army Knife (the
really thick one). I have done EVERYTHING with that knife. The
workmanship is second to none (do NOT get one made by Weinger,
they are the same price but lower quality). When I go hiking I
leave the really thick one at home and choose one of the smaller
ones (I built up quite a collection while in Germany :-). The
can opener, bottle opener (both with screwdriver tips), tweezers,
toothpick, saw, scissors, and blades get the most use by me when
camping. Believe me, you don't want to try to eat with a 12"
bowie (well, maybe once. It gets boring rather quickly).
To sum up, the use of a knife as a weapon and as a tool requires two different
configurations. A large fighting knife and a smaller pocket knife will
give more utility that just one of either (and disuades misuse and abuse). A
good fighting knife should not be dulled by whittling tent stakes, and of
course you would not want to charge down a hill with a little Swiss Army
knife in your hand.
All of the above is IMHO. Direct flames elsewhere.
--
Mickey R. Boyd | "God is a comedian playing to an
FSU Computer Science | audience too afraid to laugh."
Technical Support Group |
email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | - Voltaire snorthc@relay.nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt) (06/04/91)
I have read the replies on this thread. They are well written and informative, thanks to those who have put forth the effort. Perhaps the same question can be analysed in a different way. Suppose we define some of the functions the knife would be used for and see what kind of knives fall out. I hope this is OK, it seems a bit out of charter. Killing quietly. Else you would probably shoot instead. It seems to me most sharp, fairly stong blades work about equally. Knife fighting. I can't visualize exactly how this situation could occur. Seems like one party or the other would draw a sidearm. Skinning. Well, if we mean the "L", we might have to forage off the land a bit. Digging. Chopping saplings. Prying. Cutting wires fence to phone. Sawing. Eating. I own the buckmaster survival knife (laugh all you want) with the hollow handle and grappling hook pins. It chops saplings very well. If you keep it wd40'd it draws quickly from the sheath. It doesn't saw for beans, cut wire, take a super marvelous edge for skinning or eating. I have removed the top anchor pin for comfort. It would probably die if you used it for a pry bar. If lead starts flying around my head, then I might try digging with it. Overall, it seems I would prefer some kind of a machete/bush sword possibly with a saw back. A second small blade for skinning/eating might be nice, I hate to skin/gut with a pointy knife. I certainly agree with the previous posters that a dagger shape is of limited usefulness. So hard to keep the peas from falling off the knife, even with honey :-) =================================================================== ** my dream: voice, video, data, 3 services, 1 network ** =================================================================== Stephen Northcutt (snorthc@relay.nswc.navy.mil) News Admin
joelm@microsoft.UUCP (Joel MCNAMARA) (06/05/91)
Stephen Northcutt discussed the BuckMaster as a survival knife. It's my understanding the BuckMaster was originally designed for Naval Special Warfare Units (SEALs) but never got into general issue. This is interesting, considering the bad reputation the early knives had (brittle blades). Anybody have any more info on the Navy's experience with this knife? BTW - I also heard the SEAL issue Mk. III knife is being replaced by a new Phrobis design. Interesting, in that Phrobis came out with a replacement slide for the Beretta 92 that solves the cracking problem SEALs encountered with the stock slide. It's supposed to be commercially available, priced somewhere between $150 to $175. Joel McNamara
jat@hpsemc.cup.hp.com (Joe Talmadge) (06/06/91)
# Overall, it seems I would prefer some kind of a machete/bush sword # possibly with a saw back. A second small blade for skinning/eating # might be nice, I hate to skin/gut with a pointy knife. I've got some friends who were in the Marines, and they swear by their Kabars. One of them claims that during cold weather training at some horrendously cold temperature, they were forced to cut down some saplings with a number of different machetes, and their Kabars. He claims all the machetes either broke or became quickly useless after pounding on frozen -10 degree trees, whereas the Kabars did the job with relatively little wear. I can't contact this guy anymore, but as I recall he emphasized the Kabar's usefulness in chopping, cutting, fighting, etc., at any climate, and its amazing toughness. Based on his opinions, I would say make sure you get a knife with a solid sturdy blade. Anyway, that seems to be a place where the Kabar is more advantageous than the machete. Joe jat@hpsemc.cup.hp.com
Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen) (06/06/91)
In an earlier article joelm@microsoft.UUCP <Joel MCNAMARA> writes:
+ Stephen Northcutt discussed the BuckMaster as a survival
+ knife.
+
+ It's my understanding the BuckMaster was originally designed
+ for Naval Special Warfare Units (SEALs) but never got into
+ general issue. This is interesting, considering the bad
+ reputation the early knives had (brittle blades). Anybody
+ have any more info on the Navy's experience with this knife?
There is an extensive article on the B.M. and Phrobis SEAL knife
(which looks similar to the M-9 bayonet) in the latest Fighting
Knives magazine on the stands now.
As I recall from reading the story, the BuckMaster was designed by
Buck, and then they got the SEALs to order some, at which time
the knife became "the knife issued to the SEALs). In reality
the SEALs supposedly have seldom/never used it for anything except
trading material with other units. It is considered to be too heavy,
and too breakage-prone.
According to the article in question, any knife the SEALs buy on
a requisition sheet is "SEAL issue", so this monicker doesn't mean
much.
What I've heard from George Lainhart is that many SEALs are buying
his "SEAL knife", which is a stock removal bowie design in ATS-34
stainless, with rope cutting serrations on the concave clip point.
It looks like a good dive knife overall, but costs $350.00 each
and a wait of 6 months or so.
+
+ BTW - I also heard the SEAL issue Mk. III knife is being
+ replaced by a new Phrobis design. Interesting, in that Phrobis
+ came out with a replacement slide for the Beretta 92 that
+ solves the cracking problem SEALs encountered with the stock
+ slide. It's supposed to be commercially available, priced
+ somewhere between $150 to $175.
Based on what the article said, the Mk. 3 knife is back in with the
SEALs, and the phrobis knife is out. SEALs reportedly broke MANY
(one or more boxloads) of the Phrobis replacement during use. The knife
tends to break where the threaded tang rod attaches to the stub tang
in the handle, and at the middle of the blade as well. The Mk. 3
reportedly has a breakage prone tip (which doesn't surprise me given
the way it looks in photos), but the reast of the full-tang knife is
supposedly rugged enough to be used. The Mk. 3 is also 1/3 to 1/2 the
cost of the less adequate Phrobis design.boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (06/06/91)
In article <35175@mimsy.umd.edu>, snorthc@relay.nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt) writes:
#Killing quietly.
# Else you would probably shoot instead. It seems to me
#most sharp, fairly stong blades work about equally.
You also want some length, and the blade should not be so big/thick as to
prevent deep penetration. Also, the blade should be kept very sharp (which
implies not using it for camp chores).
#Knife fighting.
# I can't visualize exactly how this situation could
#occur. Seems like one party or the other would draw a sidearm.
Sidearm first, run out of ammo, grab knife. Combat with friendlies
and bad guys in close proximity generally rules out guns for obvious
reasons. This does not happen often, but if it does you don't want
to be underequiped!!
#
#Skinning.
# Well, if we mean the "L", we might have to forage off
#the land a bit.
Smaller utility knife should be used. Carving up an animal with a 12" bowie
is not fun (unless it is an elephant or something).
#
#Digging.
#
#Chopping saplings.
#
#Prying.
It is common practice to file-sharpen one edge of your entrenching tool for
such purposes. This is a devastating weapon by the way.
#
#Cutting wires fence to phone.
Have one guy carry wirecutters (our forces use a nifty swedish-made one).
#
#Sawing.
A good wire saw is usually much more convenient.
#
#Eating.
Smaller utility knife.
#
#Overall, it seems I would prefer some kind of a machete/bush sword
#possibly with a saw back. A second small blade for skinning/eating
#might be nice, I hate to skin/gut with a pointy knife.
How about a fighting knife, utility knife, wire saw, and entrenching tool?
#
#I certainly agree with the previous posters that a dagger shape
#is of limited usefulness. So hard to keep the peas from falling
#off the knife, even with honey :-)
The dagger blade shape excells in one thing: killing people. It slips into
bad guys with the greatest of ease. However, the design is inherently
weaker from a structural standpoint. Many prefer a bowie type design with
the upper false edge sharpened.
For "sneaking up" style use, a dagger is the best. For "wild swinging and
hacking" style use, a sharpened entrenching tool is the best, or a larger
bowie style blade. Obviously a compromise is needed (unless you are big
and husky, and can carry 5 knifes :-).
Many so called "fighting knifes" are inspired by the movie style knife
fighting (the "fencing with plenty of time to make dramatic statements"
caca). In practice, knife fights are few and far between, usually
last about 2 seconds, and end with both parties being cut.
--
Mickey R. Boyd | "God is a comedian playing to an
FSU Computer Science | audience too afraid to laugh."
Technical Support Group |
email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | - Voltaire sporay@adm.brl.mil (Ralph Sporay) (06/11/91)
For years guys in SF units have been in search of the ultimate knife. I've seen Randalls, Bucks, K-Bars, Gerbers, Gurkhas, even a vintage M-1 bayonet hanging from LBEs. I never could make-up my mind what to carry, so I ruffed it for years with a standard issue demo-knife until I found something practical. One day while horsing around a buddy of mine (with trigger time) pulled his knife on me. I wondered how far he would go and called his bluff. He lunged at me and to his surprise I crabbed his hand and knife and then his jacket, kicked his feet out from under him, and while he's on the ground I pointed the knife toward him. Needless to say he surren- dered unconditionally. Then I (jokingly) embarrassed him in front of on-lookers by showing everyone how dull his knife was. That day we both learned a few things, must guys really don't know how to knife-fight and will probably never get the chance to in combat, and must guys who I've seen carry knifes don't know how to hone them. I decided that spending big bucks on a knife that could get stolen, lost, or never used was a waste. Later I was issued the standard Army/Air Force survival knife and thats as much knife as I need, and you can't beat the price. It does everything the more expensive knifes do and more, how many Randall owners can drive nails with their knifes, how many would want to? It also comes with a reinforced sheath which is ideal for airborne operations. I just can't see spending $65-$350 then having to modify the sheath so I don't have to walk of the DZ with a knife blade protruding from my ass. A lot of SF guys carry the K-Bar, they are so popular that while at the Q-course one JFK instructor had his stolen by a student. I also carry a pocket knife the standard issue demo-knife I used to carry is know only used during ceremonial occasions, but I know a few old- timers who still swear by them. I now carry a Swiss Army knife, I have a Spartan (for garrison) and a Huntsman (for field) but I know a lot of guys who carry the Champion with 29 functions, (I'd never use all 29 functions) several guys have told me for $45 its the best investment they have made. One drawback with the Champion is its heavy so to carry it tied down and in your pocket may be unpractical, one may have to in- vest in a knife pouch. Another consideration is the subdued Leatherman this is an excellent tool-combination/knife for breaking down weapons or opening ammo crates, and is an issued item for SF Weapons Sergeants. While on R&R I carry a Guardian Gerber for self protection, I also have a Mark 1 but I rarely use it because of its size. I like the feel of the Guardian better and its easier to conceal then the Mark 1. This is im- portant while in Patong, the bargirls there have a tendency to pad most Falangs down. sporay@brl.mil
ronp%hound@uunet.UU.NET (Ron Phillips) (06/12/91)
In article <35310@mimsy.umd.edu> boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes: #In article <35175@mimsy.umd.edu>, snorthc@relay.nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt) writes: ##Killing quietly. ## Else you would probably shoot instead. It seems to me ##most sharp, fairly stong blades work about equally. # #You also want some length, and the blade should not be so big/thick as to #prevent deep penetration. Also, the blade should be kept very sharp (which #implies not using it for camp chores). # Killing silently with a knife, unless you have been trained to perform the task, is not as easy as one might think. Most knife attacks *do not* end in death and are far from being silent as the person wielding the knife does not know the techniques and succeeds only in surface lacerations, penetrating non-vital areas or having the knife strike bone. ********************************************************************** *Ron Phillips {uunet,atari,pyramid,ingr}!daisy!ronp* *DAZIX / An Intergraph Company ronp@daisy.UUCP * *222 Caspian Drive VOICE: (408) 747-7980 * *Sunnyvale, CA 94089 FAX: (408) 747-7572 * **********************************************************************
boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (06/12/91)
In article <35474@mimsy.umd.edu>, ronp%hound@uunet.UU.NET (Ron Phillips) writes:
#
#Killing silently with a knife, unless you have been trained to perform
#the task, is not as easy as one might think.
#
#Most knife attacks *do not* end in death and are far from being silent
#as the person wielding the knife does not know the techniques and
#succeeds only in surface lacerations, penetrating non-vital areas or
#having the knife strike bone.
#
Heck, I don't think it's easy! One thing I forgot to mention in my post
is that the logical extreme for the "dagger" style blade is realized in
a kitchen utensil. Yes, the veritable icepick, which is quite well suited
to this particular task for a number of gory reasons.
As pointed out later in my post, most knife "fights" are over in about
2 seconds, with both parties being cut (and hollering).
--
Mickey R. Boyd | "God is a comedian playing to an
FSU Computer Science | audience too afraid to laugh."
Technical Support Group |
email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | - Voltaire