maarrrk@gauss.ucsb.edu (Mark Erickson) (06/06/91)
In article <35246@mimsy.umd.edu> snitor!petert@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Toth) writes:
#
# [stuff deleted]
#
#Apropos: for the longest time i've been puzzled by magazine safeties.
#Can anyone explain what are they good for besides rendering the gun less
#than useless while reloading ?
#
#Thanx
#
#Peter Toth
Picture this: Joe Idiot (apologies to Joes out there) buys
an autoloader. Demonstrating it to a friend, he loads it up
(round in the chamber). he then takes the magazine out,
says, "It's unloaded now, see?" and proceeds to shoot himself
with it. Magazine safeties prevent this kind of behavior.
I myself believe in Natural Selection, and hence am against
magazine safeties :+)
--maarrrk
p.s. S&W magazine safeties aren't too difficult to remove,
and the removal can be reversed...gordonh@milton.u.washington.edu (Gordon Hayes) (06/06/91)
maarrrk@gauss.ucsb.edu (Mark Erickson) writes: #In article <35246@mimsy.umd.edu> snitor!petert@uunet.UU.NET (Peter Toth) writes: ## ## [stuff deleted] ## ##Apropos: for the longest time i've been puzzled by magazine safeties. ##Can anyone explain what are they good for besides rendering the gun less ##than useless while reloading ? ## ##Thanx ## ##Peter Toth # Picture this: Joe Idiot (apologies to Joes out there) buys # an autoloader. Demonstrating it to a friend, he loads it up # (round in the chamber). he then takes the magazine out, # says, "It's unloaded now, see?" and proceeds to shoot himself # with it. Magazine safeties prevent this kind of behavior. # I myself believe in Natural Selection, and hence am against # magazine safeties :+) #--maarrrk # p.s. S&W magazine safeties aren't too difficult to remove, # and the removal can be reversed... Not to mention, that magazine safties for combat pieces, are insane... -- Gordon Hayes, MCIS, University of Washington gordonh@milton.u.washington.edu Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore"
gt2852c@prism.gatech.edu (Edward Hefter) (06/06/91)
Mark Erickson writes: * *In article <35246@mimsy.umd.edu> Peter Toth writes: *# *# [stuff deleted] *# *#Apropos: for the longest time i've been puzzled by magazine safeties. *#Can anyone explain what are they good for besides rendering the gun less *#than useless while reloading ? * * Picture this: Joe Idiot (apologies to Joes out there) buys * an autoloader. Demonstrating it to a friend, he loads it up * (round in the chamber). he then takes the magazine out, * says, "It's unloaded now, see?" and proceeds to shoot himself * with it. Magazine safeties prevent this kind of behavior. #From what I understand, it also keeps Bob Forgetfull (apologies to Robert) from shooting himself while cleaning a gun he keeps loaded. "Pull the clip out, and it's safe, because *I* wouldn't keep a round in the chamber." Especially useful on DA's, I would think. I've never really wanted to shoot without a clip, now that I stop and think about it. What kind of situation are you envisioning? -- +---------------------------------------------------+ | Edward Hefter gt2852c@prism.gatech.edu | | Currently Surviving the Georgia Tech Experience | +---------------------------------------------------+
cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) (06/07/91)
In article <35305@mimsy.umd.edu> gt2852c@prism.gatech.edu (Edward Hefter) writes: #I've never really wanted to shoot without a clip, now that I stop and think #about it. What kind of situation are you envisioning? 1. You are engaged in a fire fight. 2. You have nearly emptied your magazine. Your opponent has disappeared. Since it's stupid to run your gun dry, you drop the magazine so that you can insert a full one. 3. At that moment, your opponent unexpectedly charges. Because your gun has been designed to protect the feeble-minded and the careless, that round in the chamber can't be fired, and you get dead. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist. | Peter Cash | (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein) |cash@convex.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler) (06/07/91)
In article <35305@mimsy.umd.edu> gt2852c@prism.gatech.edu (Edward Hefter) writes:
#I've never really wanted to shoot without a clip, now that I stop and think
#about it. What kind of situation are you envisioning?
I always fire the first round in a new firearm with the magazine or
clip removed. The reason is that the bore or chamber could restrict
the bullet and develop pressures too hige for the cartridge case, or
other "blowup" problems. I'd rather that the product of such an
accident vented down and out, and didn't rather vent through the grip
panels. (Anyone else remember the *original* reason for the steel
inserts in Pachmayer grips?)
So, the first couple of rounds in a new firearm, and the first couple
in a new loading (I handload and cast). It's safer to take it slow and
easy, watch the case, check for excessive pressure, and make sure of
proper functioning before I get movin' and groovin'.
Technically speaking, of course.
--
Russ Kepler - Basis Int'l SNAIL: 5901 Jefferson NE, Albuquerque, NM 87109
UUCP: bbx.basis.com!russ PHONE: 505-345-5232gordonh@milton.u.washington.edu (Gordon Hayes) (06/07/91)
cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes: #In article <35305@mimsy.umd.edu> gt2852c@prism.gatech.edu (Edward Hefter) writes: ##I've never really wanted to shoot without a clip, now that I stop and think ##about it. What kind of situation are you envisioning? #1. You are engaged in a fire fight. #2. You have nearly emptied your magazine. Your opponent has disappeared. #Since it's stupid to run your gun dry, you drop the magazine so that you #can insert a full one. #3. At that moment, your opponent unexpectedly charges. Because your gun has #been designed to protect the feeble-minded and the careless, that round in #the chamber can't be fired, and you get dead. Exactly the reason I hate having a gun with a magazine safety. If one follows the first rule of handling a gun (that it IS loaded, regardless of what YOU think), the safety not only shouldn't be necessary, it should be ludicrous. I can't really think of a reason to have one, and if soneone does NEED one, perhaps, they shouldn't have a gun in the first place. Of course, now that I think about this for a moment, if you only use a handgun for target purposes, it might make sense. But as I look at handguns as combat pieces, I don't wish to own one. The day I got my S&W model 59, I removed the rear sight and took out the piece of metal that engaged the mag. safety. Number 3 above, is exactly why having one is dangerous, as number 2 above, is how one would want to replace a fresh mag in a fire fight. But since I don't see a model 59 as a target piece, but as a combat piece, I don't see why I would want one on it. Anyway, I sold the 59 and I'm looking for a more appropriate handgun now. -- Gordon Hayes, MCIS, University of Washington gordonh@milton.u.washington.edu Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore"
maarrrk@gauss.ucsb.edu (Mark Erickson) (06/08/91)
In article <35305@mimsy.umd.edu> gt2852c@prism.gatech.edu (Edward Hefter) writes:
#
# [stuff deleted]
#
#
#I've never really wanted to shoot without a clip, now that I stop and think
#about it. What kind of situation are you envisioning?
#--
# +---------------------------------------------------+
# | Edward Hefter gt2852c@prism.gatech.edu |
# | Currently Surviving the Georgia Tech Experience |
# +---------------------------------------------------+
Picture this: you're in a gunfight. You empty your
magazine (but not the chamber! shooting a gun completely
dry is bad form) and need to reload. In the process of
reloading, you get jumped by an attacker. If you have a
magazine safety, you may be hosed. If you don't, you at
least have one shot available.
Unlikely? I think so. Impossible? No.
--maarrrkspf@hoqaa.att.com (Steven P Frysinger) (06/11/91)
#From article <35305@mimsy.umd.edu>, by gt2852c@prism.gatech.edu (Edward Hefter): # I've never really wanted to shoot without a clip, now that I stop and think # about it. What kind of situation are you envisioning? The one that comes to my mind is the situation in which you're replacing mags during a fight. If you choose your time appropriately, you still have a round ready to go while the gun is (partially) disassembled, so if someone surprises you on the flank (or if you drop your next clip while wetting your pants), you at least have something to throw at them besides the gun itself. Steve
baechler@liasun4.epfl.ch ((Emmanuel Baechler)) (06/11/91)
As far as I know, the origin of the controversy with the magazine safety, is that it makes the trigger of the Browning GP-35 so horrible that it is unusable. This is why the first thing to do, when you receive one, is to remove that safety. I am not sure that this safety is really useful at all. Considering a handgun as safe, simply because the magazine is a way, looks to me as the best way to prepare an accident. The safety rule which consider that a gun is loaded and chambered as long as you do not prove the contrary by onpening the slide (and lock it open) and looking at the barrel (and dropping the magazine) makes much more sense, IMHO. Finally, grip safeties, firing pin safeties or Colt-like security looks much more useful to me than the magazine one. Emmanuel Baechler baechler@liasun4.epfl.ch
gt2852c@prism.gatech.edu (Edward Hefter) (06/11/91)
Quoting many people...
##From article <35305@mimsy.umd.edu>, by Edward Hefter:
## I've never really wanted to shoot without a clip, now that I stop and think
## about it. What kind of situation are you envisioning?
#
#The one that comes to my mind is the situation in which you're replacing
#mags during a fight. If you choose your time appropriately, you still
#have a round ready to go while the gun is (partially) disassembled, so
#if someone surprises you on the flank (or if you drop your next clip
#while wetting your pants), you at least have something to throw at them
#besides the gun itself.
I've seen this answer now about a thousand times, and I agree, it is quite
correct and something I totally failed to consider. Then again, I never
envision myself engaged in a shoot-out. Rather than tell me again about
the same situation, are there any other situations, or any mechanical
reasons, why a magazine safety is "bad"?
--
+---------------------------------------------------+
| Edward Hefter gt2852c@prism.gatech.edu |
| Currently Surviving the Georgia Tech Experience |
+---------------------------------------------------+ browne@Apple.COM (Sean Browne) (06/12/91)
# the same situation, are there any other situations, or any mechanical # reasons, why a magazine safety is "bad"? # -- # +---------------------------------------------------+ # | Edward Hefter gt2852c@prism.gatech.edu | # | Currently Surviving the Georgia Tech Experience | # +---------------------------------------------------+ I had the mag safety removed from my Browning Hi-Power. I was using it frequently to shoot tactical in ipsc with some friends. At the end of each stage the drill is to drop the mag, clear the chamber for the RO (range officer) and drop the hammer on the empty chamber by pulling the trigger. To do this I would have to put a mag back into my gun. This could be rather inconvenient and RO's prefer you don't use a loaded mag to reinsert into your gun while trying to prove it's unloaded. I also felt that my trigger improved a great deal with the mag safety removed. As in a real combat situation, in ipsc you don't want to run your gun dry so your dropped magazines will still have a couple rounds in them. -Sean Browne. browne@apple.com
gordonh@milton.u.washington.edu (Gordon Hayes) (06/12/91)
gt2852c@prism.gatech.edu (Edward Hefter) writes:
#Quoting many people...
###From article <35305@mimsy.umd.edu>, by Edward Hefter:
### I've never really wanted to shoot without a clip, now that I stop and think
### about it. What kind of situation are you envisioning?
##
##The one that comes to my mind is the situation in which you're replacing
##mags during a fight. If you choose your time appropriately, you still
#I've seen this answer now about a thousand times, and I agree, it is quite
#correct and something I totally failed to consider. Then again, I never
#envision myself engaged in a shoot-out. Rather than tell me again about
#the same situation, are there any other situations, or any mechanical
#reasons, why a magazine safety is "bad"?
#--
# +---------------------------------------------------+
# | Edward Hefter gt2852c@prism.gatech.edu |
I think this all really boils down to whether or not you are a novice,
or an experienced user, and whether or not the firearm in question
is used for target or carry (for protection). People seem to want to
mix these two forms up and you can't. Target is fine with lots of
safties, carry...isn't. The main point, I think, is simply if the
slide isn't back and locked open, it should be considered loaded
no matter what. I can't understand people shooting themselves or
others accidentally.
--
Gordon Hayes, MCIS, University of Washington
gordonh@milton.u.washington.edu
Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore"skrone@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (stuart.krone) (06/12/91)
In article <35487@mimsy.umd.edu> browne@Apple.COM (Sean Browne) writes:
#
## the same situation, are there any other situations, or any mechanical
## reasons, why a magazine safety is "bad"?
## --
## +---------------------------------------------------+
## | Edward Hefter gt2852c@prism.gatech.edu |
## | Currently Surviving the Georgia Tech Experience |
## +---------------------------------------------------+
If you go camping and lose a magazine. If you drop it and render
it unusable it could cause a jam if you had to insert it
anyway just to work the mag saftey.
Stucramer@uunet.UU.NET (Clayton Cramer) (06/13/91)
In article <35459@mimsy.umd.edu>, baechler@liasun4.epfl.ch ((Emmanuel Baechler)) writes:
# As far as I know, the origin of the controversy with the magazine
# safety, is that it makes the trigger of the Browning GP-35 so horrible
# that it is unusable. This is why the first thing to do, when you
# receive one, is to remove that safety.
At least current Browning Hi-Powers (as the GP-35 is called here)
have very good triggers. I have read that the FBI's Hostage Rescue
Teams use Hi-Powers, with the magazine safety removed, principally
for the reason of improving the trigger.
# I am not sure that this safety is really useful at all. Considering
# a handgun as safe, simply because the magazine is a way, looks to me
# as the best way to prepare an accident. The safety rule which consider
# that a gun is loaded and chambered as long as you do not prove the
# contrary by onpening the slide (and lock it open) and looking at the
# barrel (and dropping the magazine) makes much more sense, IMHO.
# Finally, grip safeties, firing pin safeties or Colt-like security
# looks much more useful to me than the magazine one.
#
# Emmanuel Baechler
So how complicated is it to remove? Is this really the sort of thing
you want a gunsmith to remove? How hard is it to re-install? I've
already had one bad experience with a gunsmith working on a Colt
Government Model trigger -- it would be nice if this were the sort of
change I could do myself, and reverse myself, if there were no real
trigger improvement.
--
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer My opinions, all mine!
They can have my urine sample when they pry it from my dead, cold fingers.
"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to
teenage boys." -- P.J. O'Rourke, _Parliament_of_Whores_ghm@ccadfa.cc.adfa.OZ.AU (Geoff Miller) (06/13/91)
gordonh@milton.u.washington.edu (Gordon Hayes) writes:
[...referring to lots of other stuff...]
#I think this all really boils down to whether or not you are a novice,
#or an experienced user, and whether or not the firearm in question
#is used for target or carry (for protection). People seem to want to
#mix these two forms up and you can't. Target is fine with lots of
#safties, carry...isn't. The main point, I think, is simply if the
#slide isn't back and locked open, it should be considered loaded
#no matter what. I can't understand people shooting themselves or
#others accidentally.
Interestingly, safeties are found on "carry" guns rather than purpose-built
target guns. My Anschutz, BSA and Sportco rifles and Walther pistol don't
have a safety catch amongst them. I thought (as I think someone has
already suggested) that the magazine safety was so you could take the
magazine out and then throw the gun at your opponent!
#Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore"
The Gunsite Raven?
Geoff Miller (ghm@cc.adfa.oz.au)
Computer Centre, Australian Defence Force Academyjamaass@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Jeffrey A. Maass) (06/13/91)
gt2852c@prism.gatech.edu (Edward Hefter) writes:
#
#
# Quoting many people...
# ##From article <35305@mimsy.umd.edu>, by Edward Hefter:
# ## I've never really wanted to shoot without a clip, now that I stop and thin
# ## about it. What kind of situation are you envisioning?
# #
# #The one that comes to my mind is the situation in which you're replacing
# #mags during a fight. If you choose your time appropriately, you still
# #have a round ready to go while the gun is (partially) disassembled, so
# #if someone surprises you on the flank (or if you drop your next clip
# #while wetting your pants), you at least have something to throw at them
# #besides the gun itself.
#
# I've seen this answer now about a thousand times, and I agree, it is quite
# correct and something I totally failed to consider. Then again, I never
# envision myself engaged in a shoot-out. Rather than tell me again about
# the same situation, are there any other situations, or any mechanical
# reasons, why a magazine safety is "bad"?
On the Browning Hi-Power, the magazine safety makes the trigger
less than ideal: almost a two-stage feel. Removing the safety
helps to make the trigger pull smooth and break "crisply".
This is from
jamaass@bluemoon.uucp
jamaass%bluemoon@nstar.rn.com
who doesn't have their own obnoxious signature yetklm@uunet.UU.NET (Kevin L. McBride) (06/13/91)
In article <35357@mimsy.umd.edu> gordonh@milton.u.washington.edu (Gordon Hayes) writes:
#
#Exactly the reason I hate having a gun with a magazine safety. If
#one follows the first rule of handling a gun (that it IS loaded,
#regardless of what YOU think), the safety not only shouldn't
#be necessary, it should be ludicrous.
[some other things I agree with deleted]
#Anyway, I sold the 59 and I'm looking for a more appropriate
#handgun now.
SIG makes *combat* handguns. They don't have a magazine safety. I
bought my P228 about 2 months ago. I've fired over 1500 rounds at the
range without a single jam or misfeed, and I carry it almost every
day. It is the most accurate of the 4 handguns I've owned. It is
extremely comfortable in my hand and I shoot better with it than with
my Dan Wesson .357 revolver.
As a side note, I think that shooting hot .357 loads in a revolver has
helped considerably in steadying my shooting hand so that I can
control the 9mm even better. A couple of cylinders full of Mags makes
the 9mm kick feel like a .22. It might be all in my head, but that's
what counts in combat shooting, right? Any opinions on this?
(Anybody notice how I've become a big SIG fan lately? :-)
--
Kevin L. McBride DoD // Just say NO to the war on your freedom which,
President #0348 // by the way, is being fought with YOUR money.
MSCG, Inc. \\ // Let them know you've had enough.
uunet!wang!gozer!klm \X/ Vote Libertarian.joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch) (06/14/91)
In article <35459@mimsy.umd.edu>, baechler@liasun4.epfl.ch ((Emmanuel Baechler)) writes:
#
#
# As far as I know, the origin of the controversy with the magazine
# safety, is that it makes the trigger of the Browning GP-35 so horrible
# that it is unusable. This is why the first thing to do, when you
# receive one, is to remove that safety.
Removing the magazine safety from a pistol used strictly for target
practice might be okay, but for a pistol intended for self-defense
removing any safety device would be a pretty dumb idea. The prosecuting
attorney could easily make you look like a wild eyed gunslinger to the
jury for pulling something like that. You should also consider your
liability if you ever sell or give the gun away. If you want a pistol
for self-defense and don't like the safeties included, buy a different
pistol, don't fiddle with it. Massad Ayoob advises having a good
gunsmith convert a pistol to double action only operation if possible.
By the way, I had a chance to dry fire one of the new DAO S&W pistols
this weekend at a gun store. I was really impressed with the trigger
pull. It was very smooth.
--
Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809
joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982baechler@disuns2.epfl.ch ((Emmanuel Baechler)) (06/15/91)
# In article <35459@mimsy.umd.edu>, baechler@liasun4.epfl.ch ((Emmanuel
# Baechler)) writes:
# #
# #
# # As far as I know, the origin of the controversy with the magazine
# # safety, is that it makes the trigger of the Browning GP-35 so
# horrible
# # that it is unusable. This is why the first thing to do, when you
# # receive one, is to remove that safety.
#
# Removing the magazine safety from a pistol used strictly for target
# practice might be okay, but for a pistol intended for self-defense
# removing any safety device would be a pretty dumb idea. The
# prosecuting attorney could easily make you look like a wild eyed
# gunslinger to the jury for pulling something like that....
Happily, I am in Switzerland and not in the US, so law is quite different.
Here, you are considered as an adult, and removing a safety is *YOUR*
responsiblity. You can be condemmned, for an unjustified use of your
firearm, but the fact that a safety has been removed is totally irrelevant.
Finally, shooters in Europe agree that the magazine safety of the
Browning GP-35
(I speak of this pistol, and no other one) MUST be removed whatever its
purpose is, because it makes its trigger so poor that it is almost
unusable.
Emmanuel Baechler
baechler@liasun4.epfl.ch
Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne
MA - Ecublens
1015 Lausanne Switzerland
john@uunet.UU.NET (John Gayman) (06/15/91)
In article <35573@mimsy.umd.edu>, gozer!klm@uunet.UU.NET (Kevin L. McBride) writes: # In article <35357@mimsy.umd.edu> gordonh@milton.u.washington.edu (Gordon Hayes) writes: # SIG makes *combat* handguns. They don't have a magazine safety. I # bought my P228 about 2 months ago. I've fired over 1500 rounds at the # range without a single jam or misfeed, and I carry it almost every # day. It is the most accurate of the 4 handguns I've owned. It is # extremely comfortable in my hand and I shoot better with it than with # my Dan Wesson .357 revolver. # I'll concur with the SIG performance. My P-220 has had about 4000 rds through it with one jam. That one jam occured when my uncle was firing it and he was holding the gun so loose it nearly lept out of his hands. I wrote it off to operator error. :-) John -- John Gayman, WA3WBU | UUCP: uunet!wa3wbu!john 1869 Valley Rd. | Marysville, PA 17053 | Packet: WA3WBU @ WB3EAH