marko@hutch (Mark O'Shea) (06/12/91)
In article <35433@mimsy.umd.edu> roc@sequent.com writes:
#I agree. The .30 carbine is a good round that does not deserve the
#derision heaped upon it. It's a relitively low power round (110
Oh yes, it does. I was required to shoot one for several years in the AF
before the advent of the M16. I was never able to qualify as an expert
with it. I was an NRA "Expert" class marksman in high power and qualified
every time as an expert with the M16. I shot on the Air Defense Command
High Power Team for two years.
#grains at about 1500 fps, right?), but very controllable, and accurate
#enough at 100 yards to regularly hit a man size target.
By who?
The .30 cal carbine is a good plinker and maybe even a passable small
game round (provided the game holds still for three rounds), but don't pass
it off as a self defense weapon please. All of the guys I know who where in
Korea and got issued one of them, swapped it at the first opportunity for
an M1.
One of my elk hunting partners who was at Chosan (sp?) Reservoir calls the M1
carbine (.30 cal) the "worst piece of shit I ever shot".
My uncle who was in the National Guard for 25 years says the M1 is a .22 with
delusions of grandeur.
Gun Control Means Being Able to Hit Your Target
Mark O'Shea
marko@ijf1.intel.comMEDELMA@cms.cc.wayne.edu (Michael Edelman) (06/12/91)
The M1 Carbine is very good at doing what it's supposed to do. It's not a marksman's rifle, or a sniper's weapon, or anything like that. It was conceived as an alternative to the sidearm for non-infantry troops. The cartridge has ballistics similar to the .357- i.e., a hot handgun round. Given the choice of reaching for my .357 or my carbine in a tight situtation, I'd grab the carbine with a couple of 30 round magazines. IMHO, of course. --mike
leem@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Lee Mellinger) (06/13/91)
In article <35479@mimsy.umd.edu> marko@hutch (Mark O'Shea) writes: :In article <35433@mimsy.umd.edu> roc@sequent.com writes: :#I agree. The .30 carbine is a good round that does not deserve the :#derision heaped upon it. It's a relitively low power round (110 : :Oh yes, it does. I was required to shoot one for several years in the AF :before the advent of the M16. I was never able to qualify as an expert :with it. I was an NRA "Expert" class marksman in high power and qualified :every time as an expert with the M16. I shot on the Air Defense Command :High Power Team for two years. : :Mark O'Shea Well, I was in the same boat, and for every year for four years I qualified "expert" with the M1 Carbine on those same Air Force ranges. BTW, I am now qualified as "distinguished expert" on the LA County Sheriff's pistol qualification course. Maybe you just weren't compatible with the little carbine. Lee "Mit Pulver und Blei, die Gedanken sind frei." |Lee F. Mellinger Caltech/Jet Propulsion Laboratory - NASA |4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, CA 91109 818/354-1163 FTS 792-1163 |leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV
jgd@gatech.edu (John G. DeArmond) (06/13/91)
MEDELMA@cms.cc.wayne.edu (Michael Edelman) writes:
#The M1 Carbine is very good at doing what it's supposed to do. It's not
#a marksman's rifle, or a sniper's weapon, or anything like that. It
#was conceived as an alternative to the sidearm for non-infantry troops.
#The cartridge has ballistics similar to the .357- i.e., a hot handgun
#round. Given the choice of reaching for my .357 or my carbine in a tight
#situtation, I'd grab the carbine with a couple of 30 round magazines.
#IMHO, of course. --mike
I agree. The ballistics and thhe loading parameters are almost identical.
In fact, for the standard military 30 cal ball (130 gr?), the maximum
load of Winchester 231 (a good pistol powder) which consists of filling
the case to the brim, wiping it off level and compressing the powder
with a bullet, is within a few grains of a hot .357 load.
Like Mike, given the choice between a .357 and my Enforcer (.30 cal carbine
with the barrel bobbed at the end of the forestock and with a pistol
grip) with a couple of 30 round mags, there is no doubt what I'd select.
I'd never go to the National Matches with a .30 carbine but I'd sure
use it for self-defence and close in work. And to beat all, it's a
damn fun gun to shoot. Not near the muzzle blast and about the same
recoil as .223.
John
--
John De Armond, WD4OQC | "Purveyors of speed to the Trade" (tm)
Rapid Deployment System, Inc. | Home of the Nidgets (tm)
Marietta, Ga |
{emory,uunet}!rsiatl!jgd | "Vote early, Vote often"wdo@inel.gov (william d orr) (06/14/91)
In article <35510@mimsy.umd.edu> MEDELMA@cms.cc.wayne.edu (Michael Edelman) writes:
#The M1 Carbine is very good at doing what it's supposed to do. It's not
#a marksman's rifle, or a sniper's weapon, or anything like that. It
#was conceived as an alternative to the sidearm for non-infantry troops.
#The cartridge has ballistics similar to the .357- i.e., a hot handgun
#round. Given the choice of reaching for my .357 or my carbine in a tight
#situtation, I'd grab the carbine with a couple of 30 round magazines.
#IMHO, of course. --mike
Your explanation of the purpose of the M1 Carbine is right on the money.
Specifiically it was a replacement for the M1911 45 Calibre pistol for
infantry officers. At the time it was a problem that few infantry officers
could hit anything at all with the stock mil .45 so it was viewed that a
short barrel easy to aim carbine would be the likely answer over the M1 Garrand.
Billwdo@inel.gov (william d orr) (06/14/91)
Having qualified expert with both the M1 Carbine and the M-16 during my career in the AF I found the Carbine to be really no harder to shoot well than the M-16. I think that maybe the Carbine might be more prone to muzzle drift during the trigger pull (vs squeeze). This requires the shooter to develop a very smooth trigger pull. Also I think that the quality of the small arms training given in the AF improved greatly in the last 10-15 years (during which time they switched to the M-16).This was because Vietnam proved that even the fly-boys could suddenly become infanty in any modern war.
mjm@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Michael J Mallette) (06/14/91)
In article <35568@mimsy.umd.edu> emory!Dixie.Com!jgd@gatech.edu (John G. DeArmond) writes: # #MEDELMA@cms.cc.wayne.edu (Michael Edelman) writes: # ##The M1 Carbine is very good at doing what it's supposed to do. It's not ##a marksman's rifle, or a sniper's weapon, or anything like that. It ##was conceived as an alternative to the sidearm for non-infantry troops. ##The cartridge has ballistics similar to the .357- i.e., a hot handgun ##round. Given the choice of reaching for my .357 or my carbine in a tight ##situtation, I'd grab the carbine with a couple of 30 round magazines. ##IMHO, of course. --mike #I agree. The ballistics and thhe loading parameters are almost identical. #In fact, for the standard military 30 cal ball (130 gr?), the maximum 110 gr. #load of Winchester 231 (a good pistol powder) which consists of filling Don't you mean 296? All the loading data I have show slow burning powders for the .30 carbine. #the case to the brim, wiping it off level and compressing the powder #with a bullet, is within a few grains of a hot .357 load. Do this with 236 in a .357 case and you WILL destroy your gun with possible serious injury/death to you. The max loads with 236 are around the 8gr level, you will probably get around 17gr your way with 236. A good powder for the ..30 carbine is AA #9 loaded around the 15gr range (estimate). I load 18.1grs of #9 behind a 125gr bullet in .357. #Like Mike, given the choice between a .357 and my Enforcer (.30 cal carbine #with the barrel bobbed at the end of the forestock and with a pistol How much did it cost (ATF tax) having the barrel bobbed and how long did it take getting approval. #grip) with a couple of 30 round mags, there is no doubt what I'd select. What are you planning on going up against? 100 bikers? Pack of wild dogs/wolves? :-) Mike Mallette
JCEHC%CUNYVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu (06/14/91)
In article <35479@mimsy.umd.edu>, marko@hutch (Mark O'Shea) says: # #In article <35433@mimsy.umd.edu> roc@sequent.com writes: ##I agree. The .30 carbine is a good round that does not deserve the ##derision heaped upon it. It's a relitively low power round (110 # #Oh yes, it does. I was required to shoot one for several years in the AF #before the advent of the M16. I was never able to qualify as an expert #with it. I was an NRA "Expert" class marksman in high power and qualified #every time as an expert with the M16. I shot on the Air Defense Command #High Power Team for two years. # ##grains at about 1500 fps, right?), but very controllable, and accurate ##enough at 100 yards to regularly hit a man size target. # #By who? # #The .30 cal carbine is a good plinker and maybe even a passable small #game round (provided the game holds still for three rounds), but don't pass #it off as a self defense weapon please. All of the guys I know who where in #Korea and got issued one of them, swapped it at the first opportunity for #an M1. # #One of my elk hunting partners who was at Chosan (sp?) Reservoir calls the M1 #carbine (.30 cal) the "worst piece of shit I ever shot". # #My uncle who was in the National Guard for 25 years says the M1 is a .22 with #delusions of grandeur. # #Gun Control Means Being Able to Hit Your Target #Mark O'Shea #marko@ijf1.intel.com OK, a question: Was the carbine dropped by the Military due to it's lack of stopping power, the usual complaint, or because it was unreliable? S.L.A. Marshall in writing about the weapons used by the Americans in the Korean War, wrote about the carbine's lack of reliablity , especially in extreme cold. I believe Edward Ezell's book " The great Rifle Contro- versey" contains some footnotes regarding this. (Although in reading Ezell's book one get the impression that Army Ordanance never liked the little carbine: the not invented here reaction) My own experiences with the M1 carbine are limited although I did have one repeatedly malfunction in fairly cold weather (between 0 F and 10 F) During that same time a Mini-14 we were shooting was also malfunctioning. The only semi-auto that we had with us that worked flawlessly in the cold was my M1 Garand. I've always thought that the .30 carbine cartridge should be compared with the 9mm parabellum and not real rifle cartridges like the .308 or even the .223 Just my two cents. ------- MICHAEL F. GORDON JCEHC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU ==================================================== "WHEN YOU TRY TO FIND THE PEOPLE, ALWAYS IN THE END IT COMES DOWN TO SOMEONE" JOHN DOS PASSOS
gmk@falstaff.mae.cwru.edu (Geoff Kotzar) (06/14/91)
In article <35568@mimsy.umd.edu> emory!Dixie.Com!jgd@gatech.edu (John G. DeArmond) writes: # #MEDELMA@cms.cc.wayne.edu (Michael Edelman) writes: # ##The M1 Carbine is very good at doing what it's supposed to do. It's not ##a marksman's rifle, or a sniper's weapon, or anything like that. It ##was conceived as an alternative to the sidearm for non-infantry troops. ##The cartridge has ballistics similar to the .357- i.e., a hot handgun ##round. Given the choice of reaching for my .357 or my carbine in a tight ##situtation, I'd grab the carbine with a couple of 30 round magazines. ##IMHO, of course. --mike # #I agree. The ballistics and thhe loading parameters are almost identical. #In fact, for the standard military 30 cal ball (130 gr?), the maximum #load of Winchester 231 (a good pistol powder) which consists of filling #the case to the brim, wiping it off level and compressing the powder #with a bullet, is within a few grains of a hot .357 load. ***** Whoa there. Are you sure you don't mean H 110 or Winchester 296.**** If I am not mistaken, H 110 is listed as having been developed as the service powder for the .30 carbine by Hodgdon. A case full of 231 would probably be a serious overload. G. Kotzar # #Like Mike, given the choice between a .357 and my Enforcer (.30 cal carbine #with the barrel bobbed at the end of the forestock and with a pistol #grip) with a couple of 30 round mags, there is no doubt what I'd select. #I'd never go to the National Matches with a .30 carbine but I'd sure #use it for self-defence and close in work. And to beat all, it's a #damn fun gun to shoot. Not near the muzzle blast and about the same #recoil as .223. # #John # #-- #John De Armond, WD4OQC | "Purveyors of speed to the Trade" (tm) #Rapid Deployment System, Inc. | Home of the Nidgets (tm) #Marietta, Ga | #{emory,uunet}!rsiatl!jgd | "Vote early, Vote often"
leem@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Lee Mellinger) (06/15/91)
In article <35611@mimsy.umd.edu> JCEHC%CUNYVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu writes: :In article <35479@mimsy.umd.edu>, marko@hutch (Mark O'Shea) says: :# :#In article <35433@mimsy.umd.edu> roc@sequent.com writes: :##I agree. The .30 carbine is a good round that does not deserve the :##derision heaped upon it. It's a relitively low power round (110 :# : My own experiences with the M1 carbine are limited although I did have :one repeatedly malfunction in fairly cold weather (between 0 F and 10 F) :During that same time a Mini-14 we were shooting was also malfunctioning. :The only semi-auto that we had with us that worked flawlessly in the cold :was my M1 Garand. : :MICHAEL F. GORDON JCEHC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU When qualifying with the carbine, on several occasions, the temperatures were in the -10F to 0F range. I never had any malfunctions. In fact, there were very few problems with the gun by any of the shooters. Lee "Mit Pulver und Blei, die Gedanken sind frei." |Lee F. Mellinger Caltech/Jet Propulsion Laboratory - NASA |4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, CA 91109 818/354-1163 FTS 792-1163 |leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV
marko@hutch (Mark O'Shea) (06/15/91)
In article <35611@mimsy.umd.edu> JCEHC%CUNYVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu writes:
# OK, a question: Was the carbine dropped by the Military due to it's
#lack of stopping power, the usual complaint, or because it was unreliable?
#S.L.A. Marshall in writing about the weapons used by the Americans in
#the Korean War, wrote about the carbine's lack of reliablity , especially
#in extreme cold. I believe Edward Ezell's book " The great Rifle Contro-
#versey" contains some footnotes regarding this. (Although in reading Ezell's
#book one get the impression that Army Ordanance never liked the little carbine:
#the not invented here reaction)
#
My original point, which I admit was lost in some rhetoric and hyperbole
due to my extreme prejudice against the M1 carbine, was that it is not
a good self defense weapon. The former security policemen amongst us
have all qualified expert. Well they should. The average joe with
little experience or skill should not be told to get a .30 cal carbine.
for self defense. That was my point.
# My own experiences with the M1 carbine are limited although I did have
#one repeatedly malfunction in fairly cold weather (between 0 F and 10 F)
#During that same time a Mini-14 we were shooting was also malfunctioning.
#The only semi-auto that we had with us that worked flawlessly in the cold
#was my M1 Garand.
One of the times I qualified with the M16 was in Alaska in the dead of winter.
I do not recall a single malfunction. One of the range masters dumped a hand
full of snow into the breech of a gun and fired 5 rounds without a problem.
# I've always thought that the .30 carbine cartridge should be compared
#with the 9mm parabellum and not real rifle cartridges like the .308 or
#even the .223
Amen.
Gun Control Means Being Able to Hit Your Target
Mark O'Shea
marko@ijf1.intel.comjgd@gatech.edu (John G. DeArmond) (06/15/91)
mjm@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Michael J Mallette) writes: #In article <35568@mimsy.umd.edu> jggd@dixie.com (John G. DeArmond) writes: ## ##I agree. The ballistics and thhe loading parameters are almost identical. ##In fact, for the standard military 30 cal ball (130 gr?), the maximum # 110 gr. ##load of Winchester 231 (a good pistol powder) which consists of filling #Don't you mean 296? All the loading data I have show slow burning powders for #the .30 carbine. ##the case to the brim, wiping it off level and compressing the powder ##with a bullet, is within a few grains of a hot .357 load. #Do this with 236 in a .357 case and you WILL destroy your gun with possible #serious injury/death to you. No, I meant Winchester 231 exactly as I wrote it. I can't imagine why one would want to load such a small capacity round with slow rifle powder. Winchester 231 gives about the best bang for the buck in my testing. ##with the barrel bobbed at the end of the forestock and with a pistol #How much did it cost (ATF tax) having the barrel bobbed and how long did it #take getting approval. Iver Johnson sells the gun right off the shelf for about $160 or so. No tax stamp required unless you want the full auto version. That's the neat thing about the M-1 style actions. You can have a legal length barrel in a nice one handed "pistol". ##grip) with a couple of 30 round mags, there is no doubt what I'd select. #What are you planning on going up against? 100 bikers? Pack of wild dogs/wolves? Actually, I plan on addressing any self-defense situation I'll ever get into with my North American Arms .22 mag mini revolver (Yeah! Let's get that argument going again.) or my Gold Cup. But if I had to pick between a .357 mag revolver and my Enforcer, I'd take the enforcer. John -- John De Armond, WD4OQC | "Purveyors of speed to the Trade" (tm) Rapid Deployment System, Inc. | Home of the Nidgets (tm) Marietta, Ga | {emory,uunet}!rsiatl!jgd | "Vote early, Vote often"
bashiti%kira.UVM.EDU@griffin.UVM.EDU (Abbas J Bashiti) (06/18/91)
#From article <35603@mimsy.umd.edu>, by mjm@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Michael J Mallette):
#
# In article <35568@mimsy.umd.edu> emory!Dixie.Com!jgd@gatech.edu (John G. DeArmond) writes:
# #
#
# How much did it cost (ATF tax) having the barrel bobbed and how long did it
# take getting approval.
#
# #grip) with a couple of 30 round mags, there is no doubt what I'd select.
#
# What are you planning on going up against? 100 bikers? Pack of wild dogs/wolves?
# :-)
#
I believe Iver Johnson made some "Enforcers". As they came from the
factory, they were merely considered pistols. This means there were
probably no special taxes. It's not my gun, but I know these existed,
so I thought i'd follow up.
Never have enough firepower!!
later,
AJ