newcomb@world.std.com (Donald R Newcomb) (06/15/91)
Thanks to everyone who responded to my previous posting on the need for a target shooting discussion group. Several people have recommended that we NOT split off rec.guns. while still wishing for more target related content. I recommend that target related postings have the word "target" somewhere in the subject line. That way anyone just interested in those postings can use the subject scan feature to pick them out. Here is a question for US highpower shooters. In a 600 yd. Highpower match (U.S. National Match course) I was in the pits during 300 rapid. The shooter was firing an AR-15 (.223). One round hit at 12:00 O'clock _just_ outside the 9 ring. Between the bullet hole and 9 ring there was a very thin but distinct black line. My partner in the pit insisted that it was a legal 8 and we should not call for a plug. It was run as an 8. The shooter challenged for score on that shot. The pit officer asked us, "Can you see black between the bullet hole and ring?" I replied, "Yes, but its a .223 and close." He replied, "Well, if it doesn't touch and you see black, he lost his dollar." The challenge was denied. The pit officer never plugged the hole. Is this the correct way to score a close .223 hit? Was proper procedure followed? Donald Newcomb newcomb@world.std.com [MODERATOR: Its the pit officer's call, but I would have plugged it. In the case that the hole is clearly, cleanly punched through, then seeing black between the hole edge and any part of the *white* line (that itself constitutes the beginning of the next scoring region) means the lower score is used. If that hole cuts any part of the white line (or black line, if you are out of the black center) then the higher score is given. Now, few hi power shooters use nice wadcutters. So with typically-used bullets, like from the pea shooter you mention, the paper tears a little, the bullet passes through, but then the paper edge is still there over the hole. This is why you use a plug, to precisely define the edge of what constitutes the "hole". Get 'hold of the NRA rule book for hi power, its makes interesting reading after you've already been out to the firing line (though to me it was a bit confusing to read before I'd actually been in a match...)]
smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) (06/17/91)
In article <35675@mimsy.umd.edu>, newcomb@world.std.com (Donald R Newcomb) writes...
#Thanks to everyone who responded to my previous posting on the need
#for a target shooting discussion group. Several people have recommended
#that we NOT split off rec.guns. while still wishing for more target
#related content. I recommend that target related postings have the
#word "target" somewhere in the subject line. That way anyone just
#interested in those postings can use the subject scan feature to
#pick them out.
#
#Here is a question for US highpower shooters.
#
#In a 600 yd. Highpower match (U.S. National Match course) I was in
#the pits during 300 rapid. The shooter was firing an AR-15 (.223).
#One round hit at 12:00 O'clock _just_ outside the 9 ring. Between the
#bullet hole and 9 ring there was a very thin but distinct black line.
#My partner in the pit insisted that it was a legal 8 and we should not
#call for a plug. It was run as an 8. The shooter challenged for score
#on that shot. The pit officer asked us, "Can you see black between the
#bullet hole and ring?" I replied, "Yes, but its a .223 and close." He
#replied, "Well, if it doesn't touch and you see black, he lost his
#dollar." The challenge was denied. The pit officer never plugged
#the hole.
#
#Is this the correct way to score a close .223 hit? Was proper
#procedure followed?
#
#Donald Newcomb
#newcomb@world.std.com
#
#[MODERATOR: Its the pit officer's call, but I would have plugged it.
#In the case that the hole is clearly, cleanly punched through, then seeing
#black between the hole edge and any part of the *white* line (that itself
#constitutes the beginning of the next scoring region) means the lower score
#is used. If that hole cuts any part of the white line (or black line, if
#you are out of the black center) then the higher score is given. Now, few
#hi power shooters use nice wadcutters. So with typically-used bullets, like
#from the pea shooter you mention, the paper tears a little, the bullet passes
#through, but then the paper edge is still there over the hole. This is why
#you use a plug, to precisely define the edge of what constitutes the "hole".
#Get 'hold of the NRA rule book for hi power, its makes interesting reading
#after you've already been out to the firing line (though to me it was a bit
#confusing to read before I'd actually been in a match...)]
Page 35 of the 1991 NRA Highpower Rifle Rules says:
"The .30 caliber gauge will be used to score all targets and calibers."
____________________________
May all your scores be 'X's!
_____________________________newcomb@world.std.com (Donald R Newcomb) (06/19/91)
I wrote: #In a 600 yd. Highpower match (U.S. National Match course) I was in #the pits during 300 rapid. The shooter was firing an AR-15 (.223). #One round hit at 12:00 O'clock _just_ outside the 9 ring. Between the #bullet hole and 9 ring there was a very thin but distinct black line. #My partner in the pit insisted that it was a legal 8 and we should not #call for a plug. It was run as an 8. The shooter challenged for score #on that shot. The pit officer asked us, "Can you see black between the #bullet hole and ring?" I replied, "Yes, but its a .223 and close." He #replied, "Well, if it doesn't touch and you see black, he lost his #dollar." The challenge was denied. The pit officer never plugged #the hole. #Is this the correct way to score a close .223 hit? Was proper #procedure followed? Mod inserted: #[MODERATOR: Its the pit officer's call, but I would have plugged it. #In the case that the hole is clearly, cleanly punched through, then seeing #black between the hole edge and any part of the *white* line (that itself #constitutes the beginning of the next scoring region) means the lower score #is used. If that hole cuts any part of the white line (or black line, if #you are out of the black center) then the higher score is given. Now, few #hi power shooters use nice wadcutters. So with typically-used bullets, like #from the pea shooter you mention, the paper tears a little, the bullet passes #through, but then the paper edge is still there over the hole. This is why #you use a plug, to precisely define the edge of what constitutes the "hole". #Get 'hold of the NRA rule book for hi power, its makes interesting reading #after you've already been out to the firing line (though to me it was a bit #confusing to read before I'd actually been in a match...)] #From NRA Highpower Rifle Rules (1990) Sorry don't have '91 yet. Rule: 9.45 "Pit Challenge Procedure- Competitors must immediately challenge the scoring of any shot on which they disagree with the target marker. It is the duty of the Range Officer to accept the challenge; collect the fee without comment; direct that no further shots be fired by the competitor until the challenge has been de- cided; personally telephone the Pit Officer and remain at the firing point until the correct value has been signaled from the pit. The Pit Officer shall examine the challenged target carefully, scrutinizing all lines, figures, and wrinkles to locate possible undetected hits using a magnifying glass and/or scoring gauge to detect close doubles, and a scoring gauge as appropriate to resolve close scoring values, before signaling results found. The Pit Officers decision is final. If the competitor's challenge is sustained, the challenge fee will be returned immediately; otherwise, it is forfeited and turned over to the Statistical Office. Rule: 14.3 "How to Score- A shot hole, the leaded edge of which comes into contact with the outside of the X ring or other scoring ring of a target, is given the higher value (including keyhole or tipped shots even though the hole is elongated to the bullet's length rather than being a circle of the bullet's diameter). X's must be scored. The higher value will be allowed in those cases where the flange on the gauge touches the scoring ring. The .30 caliber gauge will be used to score all targets and calibers. [Description of gauge and target drawing deleted] My pont is that Rule 9.45 makes it mandatory for the Pit Officer to "examine the challenged target carefully" and use "a scoring gauge as appropriate to resolve close scoring values." This is not a "judgment call" the rule says "shall." Rule 14.3 says, "The higher value will be allowed in those cases where the flange on the gauge touches the scoring ring." If the Pit Officer examines the target and fails to plug the challenged hole, when to do so _might_ raise the value, he has failed to follow Rule 9.45. I feel that we were correct to run the shot as an 8. It did not, after all, touch the scoring ring. The shooter was correct to challenge the score. The Pit Officer should have personaly examined the target and plugged the hole, if there was the slightest chance that it would have raised the score. Donald Newcomb newcomb@world.std.com
kindred@rutgers.edu (David L Kindred (Dave)) (06/19/91)
In article <35718@mimsy.umd.edu> smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) writes:
#
#Is this the correct way to score a close .223 hit? Was proper
#procedure followed?
#
#Donald Newcomb
#newcomb@world.std.com
#
#[MODERATOR: Its the pit officer's call, but I would have plugged it.
Page 35 of the 1991 NRA Highpower Rifle Rules says:
"The .30 caliber gauge will be used to score all targets and calibers."
I believe that paying the challenge fee REQUIRES the pit
officer to use the plug. This is especially true when looking at any
round less than .30 Caliber!. IF this were an important match, I
would consider PROTESTING the call. Remember that any competitor can
challenge or protest, even when you're in the pits.
Before anyone starts grumbling about why the .30 Caliber plug
is used for all calibers, I believe the answer is simply that the
scoring is based on the CENTER of the hit. Since judging the center
is extremely difficult, the lines are set up to score on the edge of
the hit. Thus, for any caliber less then .30, the plug is needed to
accurately score the hit. Presumably, if you shoot with a bullet
larger than .30, the plug should be used to TAKE AWAY POINTS as
needed.
--
EMail: kindred@telesci.UUCP (...!princeton!pyrnj!telesci!kindred)
CI$: 72456,3226 (72456.3226@compuserve.com)
Phone: +1 609 866 1000 x222
Snail: TeleSciences C O Systems, 351 New Albany Rd, Moorestown, NJ 08057-1177
[MODERATOR: Umm, no I think the rules are quite specific about what
is used for the score, the hole is the hole. Where its center sits
does not affect what you receive for the shot. I think the purpose
of the plug is to help define what is the *hole*, not its center.
Which brings us back to the question of why the .30 plug is used for
all shots....]bashiti%kira.UVM.EDU@griffin.UVM.EDU (Abbas J Bashiti) (06/20/91)
#From article <35675@mimsy.umd.edu>, by newcomb@world.std.com (Donald R Newcomb):
# My partner in the pit insisted that it was a legal 8 and we should not
# call for a plug. It was run as an 8. The shooter challenged for score
# on that shot. The pit officer asked us, "Can you see black between the
# bullet hole and ring?" I replied, "Yes, but its a .223 and close." He
# replied, "Well, if it doesn't touch and you see black, he lost his
# dollar." The challenge was denied. The pit officer never plugged
# the hole.
#
# Is this the correct way to score a close .223 hit? Was proper
# procedure followed?
#
It should have been plugged. The .223 must be scored as a .30 cal.
if i'm not mistaken. I've pulled for .223 shooters a lot, and shot them for a
while myself, all agree that a .30 cal plug should be used, and that if the
plug cuts the line its higher score. Could someone tell me if the rule book
has anything to say about this specifically, mine isn't available to me
at the moment :<. Anyway, the .223 shooters need as much help as they can get
:>.
later,
AJ