boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (06/14/91)
I was asked by someone the other day about the birth of the 9mm round. To
my great chagrin, I have forgotten most of it!!
The way I heard the "birth of the 9mm" story is as follows. The cartridge is
a "cut down" version of another one common at the time (I think it was the
.30 carbine, but I could be wrong). No thought was given to superior
ballistic design, they just needed to rechamber the Luger for a different
round, and doing it this way meant less retooling. Thus, (the way I understand
it) the 9mm specs were created in a "less than scientific" way. Oh, the
rechambering was needed due to a "request" by the German army, who did not
want to adopt the pistol in the previous caliber.
Does anyone know the full story? I know it's even more humorous, but I cannot
remember the details!!
--
Mickey R. Boyd | "God is a comedian playing to an
FSU Computer Science | audience too afraid to laugh."
Technical Support Group |
email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | - Voltaire bobd@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula) (06/15/91)
In article <35598@mimsy.umd.edu> boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes:
#
#The way I heard the "birth of the 9mm" story is as follows. The cartridge is
#a "cut down" version of another one common at the time (I think it was the
#.30 carbine, but I could be wrong).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You *are* wrong :-)
The 9mm was perhaps a necked up .30 Luger (ACP), the .30 carbine
case was developed by Winchester in the late 1930's unless I'm mistaken
(I believe 9mm Luger came out in 1904).
#ballistic design, they just needed to rechamber the Luger for a different
#round, and doing it this way meant less retooling. Thus, (the way I understand
#it) the 9mm specs were created in a "less than scientific" way. Oh, the
#rechambering was needed due to a "request" by the German army, who did not
#want to adopt the pistol in the previous caliber.
#
This was probably in a rare fit of military "sanity" (as opposed to the
normal condition for making ordinance decisions :-). Seriously, I would
certainly not criticize this decision at all (look how long 9mm
Parabellum has been around and how many current arms are chambered
for it -- they were defintely on the ball when they requested this
change). Don't get me wrong, I *like* .30 Luger, but for a lot of
reasons the 9mm Luger cartridge is just a better all around choice
for military/police work.
--
==========================================================================
Bob DeBula | Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U'swdo@inel.gov (william d orr) (06/15/91)
In article <35598@mimsy.umd.edu> boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes:
#I was asked by someone the other day about the birth of the 9mm round. To
#my great chagrin, I have forgotten most of it!!
#
#The way I heard the "birth of the 9mm" story is as follows. The cartridge is
#a "cut down" version of another one common at the time (I think it was the
#.30 carbine, but I could be wrong).
#
#Does anyone know the full story? I know it's even more humorous, but I cannot
#remember the details!!
#
I do not lnow the history of the 9mm for sure but I do know that is was not
derived from the 30 carbine. After all the .30 Carbine was not developed
until at least the late 1930's possibly early 1940's.
I have always thought that the 9mm round was derived from an earlier
european pistol cartridge something like 7x?? that was very similar
to the .380 cartridge.rcs61423@zach.fit.edu (Thomas Otake /ADVISOR Clay) (06/15/91)
In article <35598@mimsy.umd.edu> boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes:
#I was asked by someone the other day about the birth of the 9mm round. To
#my great chagrin, I have forgotten most of it!!
#
#The way I heard the "birth of the 9mm" story is as follows. The cartridge is
#a "cut down" version of another one common at the time (I think it was the
#.30 carbine, but I could be wrong). No thought was given to superior
I believe the 9mm is a powered up version drived from a 7.65mm, at least
that's what I remember. Anyhow, a gun magazine (Guns and Ammo, June (?),
if I remember correctly) had a section on 9mm guns, their origin, development,
and future. I may be wrong but the article said the 9mm was derived from the
7.65mm in Switzerland for their military.
Tomboyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) (06/16/91)
In article <35644@mimsy.umd.edu>, bobd@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula) writes:
#The 9mm was perhaps a necked up .30 Luger (ACP), the .30 carbine
#case was developed by Winchester in the late 1930's unless I'm mistaken
#(I believe 9mm Luger came out in 1904).
Ah, yes more of this is coming back to me. The Luger (chambered in .30 Luger)
was evaluated as a replacement sidearm for the German army. A bigger bore
was stipulated, so the designers took the .30 Luger and either hacked it
off or necked it up to 9mm. This enabled them to rechamber the guns only
with two parts (a new barrel, and a spring). The 9mm bore was a result
of the incidental fact that the .30 Luger has a 9mm case diameter.
The reason I say the was "less than scientific" is that a great many of
our cartridges were very carefully designed, with lots of test cases. From
the 9mm story, it sounds like tooling convenience decided the final specs
more than anything else, which makes it unusual. Usually, bullets are
designed first, then a case built around them to give the desired horsepower
and feeding characteristics. When I say "bullets", I don't mean specific
molds, just the diameter and desired weight range. This is how the .41
Magnum (just to give an example) was designed. A desired frontal area was
choosen (for terminal performace), and various different bore sizes/weight
combinations were tried until the desired figures were maximized (one of them
being a flat trajectory). They came up with the magic number (.410"), and
then worked on a case that was strong enough to take the umph needed to push
the bullet at desired speeds. My point is that lots of thought and
experimentation went into the final specs.
#
#This was probably in a rare fit of military "sanity" (as opposed to the
#normal condition for making ordinance decisions :-). Seriously, I would
#certainly not criticize this decision at all (look how long 9mm
#Parabellum has been around and how many current arms are chambered
#for it -- they were defintely on the ball when they requested this
#change). Don't get me wrong, I *like* .30 Luger, but for a lot of
#reasons the 9mm Luger cartridge is just a better all around choice
#for military/police work.
I accede that the 9mm is a step up from the old .30 Luger. However, with
modern components in a modern gun (both of which would be hard to find in
this caliber :-), who's to say? It has about as much chance as the 9mm
did, hee hee.
Thank you for pointing out that the .30 Luger is the cartridge I was thinking
of. At some point, I will find my printed version of the whole story and
will post a summary (there is still a couple of chuckles left in the story,
something about the rest of the Luger's journey to acceptance by the German
army).
The above is IMHO. Direct flames elsewhere.
--
Mickey R. Boyd | "God is a comedian playing to an
FSU Computer Science | audience too afraid to laugh."
Technical Support Group |
email: boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu | - Voltaire phil@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Phil Howard KA9WGN) (06/16/91)
rcs61423@zach.fit.edu (Thomas Otake /ADVISOR Clay) writes:
#I believe the 9mm is a powered up version drived from a 7.65mm, at least
#that's what I remember. Anyhow, a gun magazine (Guns and Ammo, June (?),
#if I remember correctly) had a section on 9mm guns, their origin, development,
#and future. I may be wrong but the article said the 9mm was derived from the
#7.65mm in Switzerland for their military.
I just read this not more than 3 hours ago from another source. Bingo.
--
/***************************************************************************\
/ Phil Howard -- KA9WGN -- phil@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu | Guns don't aim guns at \
\ Lietuva laisva -- Brivu Latviju -- Eesti vabaks | people; CRIMINALS do!! /
\***************************************************************************/JCEHC%CUNYVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu (06/18/91)
I have read in several sources that the 9mm parabellum was designed in
1902, not 1904. And the new cartridge was developed in order to suit
the United States Army, who had rejected, in tests, the Model 1900 Luger
because its 7.65 cartridge was too small. But again the U.S. rejected the
Luger, even with its 9mm cartridge.
As for the origins of the 7.65 Parabellum or .30 Luger. It was developed
in 1898 of Georg Luger for his redesigned Borchardt pistol. Luger took the lon
longer (23mm?) case of the 7.63 Mauser, which was simply the same case
as that for the 1893 Borchardt pistol. The original 7.63 Borchardt cartridge
was designed by Hugo Borchardt.
(I believe the source was either Edward Ezell's "Handguns of the World"
or John Walter's book "Luger".)
-------
MICHAEL F. GORDON JCEHC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
====================================================
"WHEN YOU TRY TO FIND THE PEOPLE,
ALWAYS IN THE END IT COMES DOWN TO SOMEONE"
JOHN DOS PASSOSbobd@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula) (06/20/91)
In article <35705@mimsy.umd.edu> boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd) writes:
#
#I accede that the 9mm is a step up from the old .30 Luger. However, with
#modern components in a modern gun (both of which would be hard to find in
#this caliber :-), who's to say? It has about as much chance as the 9mm
#did, hee hee.
#
Ummm, actually, I have seen Walther P-38s and Browning High Powers in
.30 Luger in addition to P-08s. The Walther P-38 I saw about 15 years
ago -- wish I'd bought it as I would've gotten a "deal" because it was such
a slow mover! The High Powers in .30 Luger were produced as recently as two
years ago (according to the shops information, they were a contract overrun
for some police or military organization). The .30 Luger High Powers were
also adverstised in "Shotgun News" for quite a while as a very limited
availability item. The components and reloading tools aren't that hard
to *find* they're just that *expensive* :-).
Actually, if you can find an out of the way type of old gun shop,
sometimes you can find components/dies for this cartridge *real* cheap.
They may have left the original price tag on (from the 50's or 60's)
or they may *really* be happy at the prospect of getting it out of their
inventory and give you a deal. Alas, these types of places are fading fast.
--
==========================================================================
Bob DeBula | Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U's