shaffer@achilles.ctd.anl.gov (Michael A. Shaffer ) (06/21/91)
I am a real novice (I have joined NRA but I don't yet own a gun and I haven't
fired one since I was I child) and I am looking for some advice.
I am interested in many areas of firearms use and collecting. I am intrigued
by the many old military rifles that seem to be available esp. Mauser bolt
actions. From what I have read it seems like a Mauser (late 1800's to early
1900's) might be a good place to start collecting. The info I have seen
indicates that the 7x57mm and 8mm would be good for deer hunting (another
thing that I am getting interested in) and I think that ammo is still
available for them.
Questions...
1. Are the 7mm & 8mm Mausers reasonable for this type of hunting?
2. Would these used rifles be safe and reasonably accurate?
(I would only by rifles in NRA very good or better condition
and have them checked by a gunsmith)
3. Which versions would y'all recommend?
4. Any general advice?
Since I am interested in collecting so I want to be up on local, state and
fed. laws also especially since I am interested in full autos like the tommy.
What is the best source for authoritative info on this?
mike
shaffer@achilles.ctd.anl.govcbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini) (06/22/91)
In article <35870@mimsy.umd.edu>, shaffer@achilles.ctd.anl.gov (Michael A. Shaffer ) writes: # #I am a real novice (I have joined NRA but I don't yet own a gun and I haven't #fired one since I was I child) and I am looking for some advice. [ much deleted about bolt actions] #Since I am interested in collecting so I want to be up on local, state and #fed. laws also especially since I am interested in full autos like the tommy. #What is the best source for authoritative info on this? # # mike # shaffer@achilles.ctd.anl.gov If by your email address you are in fact in Illinois (anl is Argonne, right?), you are totally out of luck with regard to any full auto. You can't get them period. Write the Attny General in Springfield and ask for a copy of the State Firearms Statutes. They will send a copy, and you know 'de facts, jack. (sorry, it's late, I probably am humor impaired at this hour...) | Chris Luchini/1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505 | | cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (best) |Cluch@fnald.bitnet (second chance) | Office address: 428 Loomis Lab, drop your checks there.
MEDELMA@cms.cc.wayne.edu (Michael Edelman) (06/22/91)
The 7mm Mausers are a good choice for shooting. Good for hunting, too.
But be careful of the 8mm Mausers. It's a fine cartridge, but there
are *two* different 8mm bores! Modern ammunition is generally sized
for the smaller bore, which means if you shoot it in a gun with the
larger bore you'll have pretty rotten accuracy. This is safer than
shooting the larger rounds in the smaller gun, of course.
All this is from distant memory, so I don't recall the details, but
it's definitely something to be aware of.
--mike edelmangmk@falstaff.mae.cwru.edu (Geoff Kotzar) (06/22/91)
In article <35870@mimsy.umd.edu> shaffer@achilles.ctd.anl.gov (Michael A. Shaffer ) writes:
#
#I am a real novice (I have joined NRA but I don't yet own a gun and I haven't
#fired one since I was I child) and I am looking for some advice.
#
#I am interested in many areas of firearms use and collecting. I am intrigued
#by the many old military rifles that seem to be available esp. Mauser bolt
#actions. From what I have read it seems like a Mauser (late 1800's to early
#1900's) might be a good place to start collecting. The info I have seen
#indicates that the 7x57mm and 8mm would be good for deer hunting (another
#thing that I am getting interested in) and I think that ammo is still
#available for them.
#
#Questions...
#
#1. Are the 7mm & 8mm Mausers reasonable for this type of hunting?
#2. Would these used rifles be safe and reasonably accurate?
# (I would only by rifles in NRA very good or better condition
# and have them checked by a gunsmith)
#3. Which versions would y'all recommend?
#4. Any general advice?
#
#Since I am interested in collecting so I want to be up on local, state and
#fed. laws also especially since I am interested in full autos like the tommy.
#What is the best source for authoritative info on this?
#
# mike
# shaffer@achilles.ctd.anl.gov
Back in April David Grimme had asked for similar info regarding
the use of old military mausers in 7x57 for deer hunting. I had
prepared this shortly afterward but did not submit it because of
hardware problems. I hope it will be of some use to you. Here goes:
My friends and I own and shoot nine different models of the
mauser rifles mostly 98k's (in the CZ-24 version) but also a
93 and 95 all of which are in 7x57 and a pair of 96's in 6.5x55.
The only drawback to the 95's and 96's is that they are full
length rifles and that means they are LONG, 50 in. overall. If you
still-hunt in thick timber and have to do some snap shooting the
length could be a disadvantage. However, my 96 is so nice that
I am planning to do some hunting out of state this year just so I
can use it; Ohio requires shotguns or handguns but no rifles.
Now in a more general vein:
1) With regard to your choice of cartridge, the 7x57 has been doing
what you want for almost a century and with out the benefit of
our first rate bullets like the Nosler. If you need more information
in this area you might look at a book by Finn Aagaard called "Hunting
Rifles and Cartridges" from the NRA (PB1N3147, $14.95). This is a
truly excellent book; Finn Aagaard's experience and common sense make
this subject very clear and his recommendations invaluable. There was also
an article in Guns & Ammo in Feb. of this year by Ross Seyfried titled
"The 6.5's Do It All". What he says about the 6.5's applies to the 7's
and most of it to the 8mm as well. The only problem with using the 8mm
for hunting might be the narrow selection of hunting bullets -not bad
but narrower than for the other two.
2) As far as practical accuracy with these military rifles is concerned
it is surprizingly good. Of the nine rifles to which I have access, ALL
have oversized bores. My 7mm which uses .284 bullets has a groove dia.
of .2865; my 6.5 uses .264 bullets but has a .2662 groove diameter. I
have not been able to do better than about 3 inches at 100 yds. with
the 7mm consistently. This is mostly due to the type of sights on this
rifle. The 6.5, however, will hold a 2 inch group off the bench at 150
yards. This again a product of the type of sights.
3) On the topic of the military sights, our 98k's (shorter rifle, 24
inch barrel) all have the inverted-V front sight and a V-notch rear.
No one in our group has been able to make this combination work well.
The 96's have a square topped front with a U-notch rear. This is an
odd combination but if you have the time they work well, at least for
me they do. By deepening the U-notch and squaring it off some it
works well for faster shots.
Even if you can work with the military sight combination, there is
still the question of your zero. My 6.5 with the rear sight all the
way down still prints 6 inches high at 150 yards. This worked out to
perfection with one foot square black on white targets. The sharp
edges of the front sight combined with the sharp edges of the target
provided an ideal sight picture and with a six o'clock hold the bullets
landed right in the center of the bull.
Some form of supplementary sights will probably be necessary. Peep
sights would work but there are not a lot of choices any more. Scopes
present a special problem on these military rifles. The bolt handles,
even the turned down variety, exit the bolt in the radial direction
and will not clear a scope mounted on the receiver. You could have a
new bolt handle welded into place if you prefer rear mounted scopes.
Both peep sights and the receiver mounted scope will require permanent
alterations from the military configuration. The alternative is to use
a forward mounted scope. B-Square makes a mount that replaces the rear
sight and allows the use of long-eye-relief pistol scopes. There are
three problems we have found. The height of the mount is greater than
necessary which makes getting a consistent sight picture from shot to
shot difficult. The mount could be reduced almost 1/4 inch and we are
in the process of making this modification. The pistol scopes require
consistent position of the eye behind the eyepiece because they have
the parallax set for 50 yds usually. There are pistol scopes available
which are adjustable for parallax. The last problem is with the eye
relief envelope on the pistol scopes. Some do not allow you get close
enough for comfortable use on rifles. If you can live with the reducd
magnification the Burris Gunsite Scopes are perfect for this applica-
tion. I can heartily recommend them but they only come in 1.5x and
2.75x. I am using one of these on a .458 and it works very well. I have
the model with the German Post and it performs well especially for wooded
areas where the heavy posts stand out -the German Post has one heavy
central post coming up from below which ends in a point and two heavy
sidebars which are not connected to the vertical post; the sight picture
feels more like that of pistol iron sights than like a rifle scope- but
for all round use I would recommend the duplex reticle. Burris's inter-
mediate eye-relief scopes will work but they provide too much magnifi-
cation for most hunting applications since they start at 7X.
4) The last point has to do with the military triggers. Some are very
good but most are only passable: they allow accurate work only if you
have the time. The Timney triggers are a fairly inexpensive replacement
and will provide you with a good quality modern trigger. They come in
several models, the least expensive is about $25.00 from Natchez. We
put one of these on my friend's rifle and it took only about 20-30
minutes to complete the job. It fit the receiver perfectly; we had
to enlarge only slightly the opening in the trigger guard plate for
the trigger. The majority of the time was spent opening the trigger
mortice in the stock. A set of palm chisels really eases the job.
Without them the installation time might run an hour. It is adjust-
able from 2-4 lbs and even at the factory maximum setting it made a
really big difference. They offer a more refined model for about an
additional $12.00 which has been hand lapped and if I were going to
replace another trigger I would opt for this one. If I remember cor-
rectly it is not available for as wide a variety of rifles though.
With the combination of the better trigger and a 4x pistol scope my
one friend is able to shoot 1-1.5 inch groups at 100 yards when he
concentrates on sitting behind the scope consistently. The combination
of the too long eye relief of his Burris pistol scope and the high
scope mount really requires that the shooter do his part. Do not let
this put you off. With the right combination of components you can turn
one into a fairly quick handling, accurate hunting rifle. Given the
current price of these rifles, you will probably tie up more money
in the scope, mount and trigger than in the rifle.
Is it worth the effort and money? I think so and so do my friends
but then again we have never been wound very tight.
Good luck with your hunt,
Geoff Kotzarsmpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) (06/22/91)
In shaffer@achilles.ctd.anl.gov (Michael A. Shaffer ) writes... # #1. Are the 7mm & 8mm Mausers reasonable for this type of hunting? Both calibers are adequate for deer hunting but the 7mm is probably more accurate and has less recoil. #2. Would these used rifles be safe and reasonably accurate? # (I would only by rifles in NRA very good or better condition # and have them checked by a gunsmith) Yes, if you make sure that there are no rust and cracks. It would be a good idea to bring the rifle to a trusty gunsmith for headspace check and overall inspection. #3. Which versions would y'all recommend? The K98k on the market are plentiful and relatively cheap, e.g. less than $200. They are relatively short but give one hell of a kick with the 8mm bullets. The 7mm on the market are a little less plentiful but still cheap, e.g. less than $160. The long rifles (29" barrels) are very accurate but a little clumsy if you're a hunter. The best 7mm on the market are probably the Chilean M1912. The Chilean M1895 are nice guns too but are not as strong as the M1912. You can buy carbine and short rifle versions but they are more rare and a little more expensive. There are some Spanish 7mm short rifles on the market but they tend to be in worse condition and are not as well made. Why not try the M1896 or M36 Swedish Mausers which come in 6.5x55? These rifles are a steal for the money, e.g. less than $150. Little recoil and excellent a ccuracy and the cartridge should be more than adequate for deer hunting. The M1896 has a 29" barrel while the M36 is a short rifle version. ____________________________ May all your scores be 'X's! _____________________________
bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz) (06/22/91)
#In article <35897@mimsy.umd.edu> MEDELMA@cms.cc.wayne.edu
#(Michael Edelman) writes:
#But be careful of the 8mm Mausers. It's a fine cartridge, but there
#are *two* different 8mm bores! Modern ammunition is generally sized
#for the smaller bore, which means if you shoot it in a gun with the
#larger bore you'll have pretty rotten accuracy.
_CAUTION_
I'm sure this is t'other way round. The earlier guns (88s) had the
J bore which was .318. The later ones have the S bore which is .323.
Modern ammo is .323. If you fire modern ammo in one of the older rifles
with the tighter bore, something will likely give. Even early '98s had
the J bore. Later, most or all of the 98s were re-barreled to .323.
But the J-bore 88s are still around, waiting to be blown up by modern
ammo. If I'm wrong, flame me. But please check it out first. Thanks.
JHBercovitz@lbl.gov (John Bercovitz)
PS: Also, the allowable chamber pressure in the 88s may well be lower than
in the 98s making this doubly dangerous. robert@Sun.COM (Robert Plamondon) (06/22/91)
In article <35870@mimsy.umd.edu> shaffer@achilles.ctd.anl.gov (Michael A. Shaffer ) writes: #Questions... # #1. Are the 7mm & 8mm Mausers reasonable for this type of hunting? #2. Would these used rifles be safe and reasonably accurate? # (I would only by rifles in NRA very good or better condition # and have them checked by a gunsmith) My father was a gunsmith, and loved military bolt-action rifles. He favored the 6.5 Carcano carbine (an Italian/Mannlicher design) because it is short and handy. He once bagged a deer with it, and the linotype bullet he used broke up and did an appalling amount of meat damage. It definitely wasn't underpowered for the application. Dad had a weakness for obscure calibers (which meshed well with his aversion to paying more than $50 for a gun), and bought all sorts of odds and ends. I still have the Model 1886 8mm Portugese Kropotschek that he bought. Compared to these, the 8mm Mauser is completely ordinary. It's a good rifle by all accounts, and ammo is still easy to come by. I think "Cartridges of the World" puts it in the .30-06 class (suitable for all North American game), where most of the 6.5mm rifles (and even the Lee-Enfield) are in the .30-30 class (that is, you'd hesitate to use it on things like elk and moose, and would be mad to use it on grizzly and buffalo). I'm not familiar with the 7mm Mauser. #4. Any general advice? Buy full-military versions. There are a lot of incompetently "sporterized" models, and the unmodified ones tend to be less expensive. The military ones are more interesting, anyway. Make sure you understand how plentiful the ammo is for the rifle before you buy it. You can still get ammo for virtually any center-fire rifle ever made, but it might be expensive and time-consuming to find it. Buy more than one. They're cheap, and the first one you buy may not suit you all that well. I don't like Lee-Enfields: too massive. They also cock on closing, which I don't like. Your mileage may vary. The sword bayonets that you can get for the early bolt-actions aren't practical, but they're cool-looking. They only cost about $20, so what the hey. Military ammo for most of these rifles kicks like hell. It also comes with fully jacketed bullets, which aren't suitable for hunting. You can often get military ammo for even very old guns (I have some Kroptoschek ammo dating back to 1922). Some of this is very good; some is very bad. Inspect every round before you fire it; my Kropotschek ammo had a lot of rounds with cracked case necks. -- Robert -- Robert Plamondon robert@weitek.COM
gmk@falstaff.mae.cwru.edu (Geoff Kotzar) (06/25/91)
In article <35915@mimsy.umd.edu> bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz) writes: ##In article <35897@mimsy.umd.edu> MEDELMA@cms.cc.wayne.edu ##(Michael Edelman) writes: ##But be careful of the 8mm Mausers. It's a fine cartridge, but there ##are *two* different 8mm bores! Modern ammunition is generally sized ##for the smaller bore, which means if you shoot it in a gun with the ##larger bore you'll have pretty rotten accuracy. # #_CAUTION_ #I'm sure this is t'other way round. The earlier guns (88s) had the #J bore which was .318. The later ones have the S bore which is .323. #Modern ammo is .323. If you fire modern ammo in one of the older rifles #with the tighter bore, something will likely give. Even early '98s had #the J bore. Later, most or all of the 98s were re-barreled to .323. #But the J-bore 88s are still around, waiting to be blown up by modern #ammo. If I'm wrong, flame me. But please check it out first. Thanks. # # JHBercovitz@lbl.gov (John Bercovitz) # #PS: Also, the allowable chamber pressure in the 88s may well be lower than #in the 98s making this doubly dangerous. I can not comment on the allowable chamber pressures but with regards to the rest, John is correct. According to "Cartridges of the World", in German 'J' and 'I' are interchangable and the 'I' stood for Infantrie. In 1905 they changed both the bullet diameter and shape and added an 'S' which stood for Spitzer. So you have the J's and the JS's. As the others have said, if you are new to these things ask for help from someone who knows about them. Picked up an FN 49 this weekend in 8mm so I have been scanning the liter- ature for info on the cartridge. Geoff Kotzar
JCEHC%CUNYVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu (06/25/91)
In article <35915@mimsy.umd.edu>, bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz) says: # ##In article <35897@mimsy.umd.edu> MEDELMA@cms.cc.wayne.edu ##(Michael Edelman) writes: ##But be careful of the 8mm Mausers. It's a fine cartridge, but there ##are *two* different 8mm bores! Modern ammunition is generally sized ##for the smaller bore, which means if you shoot it in a gun with the ##larger bore you'll have pretty rotten accuracy. # #_CAUTION_ #I'm sure this is t'other way round. The earlier guns (88s) had the #J bore which was .318. The later ones have the S bore which is .323. #Modern ammo is .323. If you fire modern ammo in one of the older rifles #with the tighter bore, something will likely give. Even early '98s had #the J bore. Later, most or all of the 98s were re-barreled to .323. #But the J-bore 88s are still around, waiting to be blown up by modern #ammo. If I'm wrong, flame me. But please check it out first. Thanks. # # JHBercovitz@lbl.gov (John Bercovitz) # #PS: Also, the allowable chamber pressure in the 88s may well be lower than #in the 98s making this doubly dangerous. Every 1888 German Commission Rifle I have ever seen was marked with an "S" stamp which indicates that that gun was rethroated. The purpose of rethroating the chamber on these guns was to make shooting .321 diameter "S" bullets through them safe. After the the adoption of the "S" cartridge ( S for spitzer) in 1904, the Imperial German army had armorers rethroat 1888 and 1898 rifles which had the smaller (.318) bore. While I don't know how safe it is to shoot regular 8mm through an '88 Commission rifle, I do know that many people do it. These rifles were also issued as substitute standard in WWI by the German army. I have seen photos of WWI German soldiers armed with them. Some were also altered so that the en bloc clip (Mannlicher clip) could be dispensed with and a Mauser stripper clip could be used instead. BTW Original .318 diameter 8mm Mauser ammo is very difficult to find. Not a flame, just additional information ------- MICHAEL F. GORDON JCEHC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU ==================================================== "WHEN YOU TRY TO FIND THE PEOPLE, ALWAYS IN THE END IT COMES DOWN TO SOMEONE" JOHN DOS PASSOS