manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) (02/14/91)
In article <5019@mcrware.UUCP>, eric@mcrware.UUCP (Eric Miller) writes: > In article <1991Feb12.133144.1852@cbnewsh.att.com> rkl@cbnewsh.att.com (kevin.laux) writes: > CD-I is consumer electronics. DVI is professional/business oriented. CD-I > will never penetrate the business market. There is way too much application > software dedicated to PCs and MACs and an incredible amount of capital > equipment that businesses have dedicated to their computer environments. > Both PCs and MACs WILL have optical disc PERIPHERALS for audio, video and > text data. CD-ROM XA and DVI are great technologies for businesses to > integrate into their systems. PC and Mac, PC and Mac. Complete ignorance of what is true competition. Neither the Mac nor the PC have truly viable multimedia platforms. I find it interesting that you are completely ignoring the significance of Commodore's CDTV unit. > > CD-I will enter the market like a new VCR or stereo component. People will > buy a new Sony, Magnavox, Yamaha or Panasonic "component" for their home > entertainment systems. The fact that this appliance is a computer is not an > issue. In fact, it will not be advertised for fear of alienating consumers. > It won't come with a keyboard, a mouse or a "system diskette". It will, > however, play movies, games, encycolpedias, magazines and (of course) > all of your audio discs. Funny this sounds like a CDTV to me. > > IBM will never be able to compete in this market because of the "perception" > that consumers have. They don't buy IBM stereo components. They buy IBM > computers. Agreed. > > CD-I may, however, have an inocuous slot in the back called "expansion" that > most people will never use. After time, some of the more sophisticated users > will find out that they could add a keyboard/harddisk/printer/modem box through > this slot and have a home computer with beautiful graphics and super quality > stereo sound. It just so happens that it reads MS-DOS diskettes so they can > bring their spreadsheet and Word Perfect (tm) disks home and work there. This > is not the primary market, and will never be as large as the number of people > who want this purely for entertainment. > > With some luck and cooperation, we as system software > suppliers and Standards Organizations will find a mechanism through groups > like MPEG and JPEG to provide a consistent quality of video presentations. > Why reinvent the wheel? I want to see the Consumer Electronics industry, the > Telecommunications industry and the Business Computer industry all get > together and say "Yes, we know how to deliver high quality FMV at 1.2 MBits > per second." And then just do it. You folks wonder why Amiga people are so "defensive". You see, in a market nearly created by Commodore the only machines mentioned in a message like this is PC and Mac. Ignorance is bliss I guess. > > Eric Miller > Manager, New Media Systems > Microware Systems Corporation > 1900 NW 114th St. > Des Moines, IA 50325 > Ph: 515-224-1929 > Fax: 515-224-1352 > > *************************************************************************** > * Disclaimer: The preceding sermon is my opinion and mine alone. I do * > * not represent any CD-I manufacturers or even Microware * > * Systems in making these comments. (Sorry I can't think * > * of anything cute and witty like so many other posters on * > * the net.) * > *************************************************************************** -mark= +--------+ ================================================== | \/ | Mark D. Manes "Mr. AmigaVision" | /\ \/ | manes@vger.nsu.edu | / | (804) 683-2532 "Make up your own mind! - AMIGA" +--------+ ==================================================
rkl@cbnewsh.att.com (kevin.laux) (02/15/91)
In article <639.27ba5a65@vger.nsu.edu>, manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) writes: > > PC and Mac, PC and Mac. Complete ignorance of what is true competition. > Neither the Mac nor the PC have truly viable multimedia platforms. I > find it interesting that you are completely ignoring the significance > of Commodore's CDTV unit. > > You folks wonder why Amiga people are so "defensive". You see, in a market > nearly created by Commodore the only machines mentioned in a message like > this is PC and Mac. Ignorance is bliss I guess. Not at all. CD-I is neither PC or Mac, but a standalone box whose main purpose is to deliver multimedia. As for why PC and Mac are always mentioned, well, the Mac has had tools for audio and video production/editing for several years. PC because of the installation base. Why would I want to buy *another* computer system so I can have multimedia (after I've already spent thousands of dollars on hardware and software) when I can readily buy a little more hardware and software for my PC? There are lots of people bringing multimedia to businesses that already have PCs. And one of the big selling points is that just by adding a CD-ROM drive and an add-in card, you too, can have multimedia. You get a bigger bang for the buck (and believe me, businesses are watching every penny!) Multimedia for the Mac has great potential because they have a large share of the educational market. Multimedia presents a wonderful way to enhance the learning experience. I disagree that neither the Mac nor the PC have truly viable multimedia platforms. What makes you say that? What can you do on an Amiga that you can't do on a PC or Mac? There has to be an incredibly significant advantage to make people switch. After all PC does multimedia, Mac does multimedia, Amiga does multimedia, CD-I does multimedia, and Bo does multimedia ;-). -- ________________________________________________________________________________ R. Kevin Laux Email: rkl1@hound.att.com AT&T Bell Labs Voice: (908) 949-1160
manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) (02/16/91)
In article <1991Feb15.141309.6025@cbnewsh.att.com>, rkl@cbnewsh.att.com (kevin.laux) writes: > In article <639.27ba5a65@vger.nsu.edu>, manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) writes: >> >> PC and Mac, PC and Mac. Complete ignorance of what is true competition. >> Neither the Mac nor the PC have truly viable multimedia platforms. I >> find it interesting that you are completely ignoring the significance >> of Commodore's CDTV unit. >> >> You folks wonder why Amiga people are so "defensive". You see, in a market >> nearly created by Commodore the only machines mentioned in a message like >> this is PC and Mac. Ignorance is bliss I guess. > > Not at all. CD-I is neither PC or Mac, but a standalone box whose > main purpose is to deliver multimedia. > > As for why PC and Mac are always mentioned, well, the Mac has had > tools for audio and video production/editing for several years. PC because > of the installation base. Why would I want to buy *another* computer system > so I can have multimedia (after I've already spent thousands of dollars on > hardware and software) when I can readily buy a little more hardware and > software for my PC? Amiga has had tools since its creation in 1985 for both audio and video production. I grant that the software was at the weak side then, but it certainly is no longer. At the end of your message you say "Amigas do multimedia", if you had said that in your initial message you would not have gotten a message from me claiming "blinders are installed". Anyway, I am certainly not going to try to start a flame war as to which system has a "viable multimedia platform" as my last message indicated. I will say that viability is often equated with affordability. > > There are lots of people bringing multimedia to businesses that > already have PCs. And one of the big selling points is that just by adding > a CD-ROM drive and an add-in card, you too, can have multimedia. You get > a bigger bang for the buck (and believe me, businesses are watching every > penny!) I might say that if you need to add sound and if you need to add some more special hardware to bring your video to a NTSC standard for overlaying laser disk output, and if you need a genlock you could have purchased an amiga and more than likely all the support hardware that you need. > > Multimedia for the Mac has great potential because they have a large > share of the educational market. Multimedia presents a wonderful way to > enhance the learning experience. Ah, but you forget that most folks don't have the Mac II line as their "educational" macs. More often than not you find the monochrome macs. Monochrome and multimedia don't go together in my book. > > I disagree that neither the Mac nor the PC have truly viable > multimedia platforms. What makes you say that? What can you do on an > Amiga that you can't do on a PC or Mac? There has to be an incredibly > significant advantage to make people switch. After all PC does multimedia, > Mac does multimedia, Amiga does multimedia, CD-I does multimedia, and Bo > does multimedia ;-). Before I answer, let me ask what software are you planning to use on the PC? How much is this software? Are you going to use a laser disk for video? Which genlock are you going to buy? And finally, what will all this cost? Rough estimate please. I know Bo, he _does_ do multimedia! :-) :-) I am trying to point out that market share in my opinion has little to do with such a growing, vertical market. In this case the older technology systems (like PC) will have a hard time coming up to what can be done easily, inexpensively and professionaly on the Amiga. I am not a raving Amiga lunatic like so many you may encountered. I understand Amigas weaknesses but I do know its strengths. I believe that all the other microcomputer platforms are lightyears behind what a Amiga can do with AmigaVision, a inexpensive genlock, internal sound, laser disk and the video toaster. > > -- > ________________________________________________________________________________ > > R. Kevin Laux Email: rkl1@hound.att.com > AT&T Bell Labs Voice: (908) 949-1160 -mark= +--------+ ================================================== | \/ | Mark D. Manes "Mr. AmigaVision" | /\ \/ | manes@vger.nsu.edu | / | (804) 683-2532 "Make up your own mind! - AMIGA" +--------+ ==================================================
manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) (02/16/91)
In article <5042@mcrware.UUCP>, eric@mcrware.UUCP (Eric Miller) writes: > In article <639.27ba5a65@vger.nsu.edu> manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), > Norfolk State University) writes: >>I find it interesting that you are completely ignoring the significance >>of Commodore's CDTV unit. >>> >>> IBM will never be able to compete in this market because of the "perception" >>> that consumers have. They don't buy IBM stereo components. They buy IBM >>> computers. > > Sorry Mark, but I have never seen a Commodore Stereo or VCR... Shortly you will. Are you not aware of the pending release of CDTV from Commodore. This unit is near release and contains a Amiga 500 and a CD-ROM. This system is packaged in a stereo-component like case and will be in Montgomery Wards and others. CDTV will also play the music CDs as well. No, it is not as exciting as what I have read about CD-I, but CDTV is going to be delievered _first_. Sometimes the firstest is the bestest. :-) I admit that the "jury is out" on CDTV, but it is exciting. > >>You folks wonder why Amiga people are so "defensive". You see, in a market >>nearly created by Commodore the only machines mentioned in a message like >>this is PC and Mac. Ignorance is bliss I guess. > > Again, I apologize. I didn't mean for this to be a list of all known computers. > Actually, I think that Amiga has a fantastic platform for multi-media. Several > CD-I engineers and other artists I work with use them in their own homes. I > even recommend them to people who want nice systems without the expense of > M**'s and P*'s. The point I was making was the M**'s and P*'s have a fairly > tight grip on the BUSINESS market. Artists and Musicians very often use Amigas. Apology accepted. Really, it gets annoying in a field nearly created by the Amiga; the amiga ends up with the least amount of press. > > Consumers buying stereo equipment buy Magnavox, Sony, RCA, Panasonic, > JVC, Sharp, Sanyo, Pioneer, Yamaha, .... These are the names that they know > and trust. These are the companies who create standards for consumer > electronics. These (and many others) are the companies manufacturing CD-I > players. Consumers also buy Nintendo, and certainly that name does not ring the bell of standards. Standards are derived from affordability, flash and consumer trust. Commodore has _always_ been the number one consumer-based computer company. Lets not forget the C64. :-) > > Eric Miller > > ********************************************* > * Computers are alot like religions and * > * "I'd rather fight than switch" describes * > * more than cigarette commercials... * > ********************************************* -mark= +--------+ ================================================== | \/ | Mark D. Manes "Mr. AmigaVision" | /\ \/ | manes@vger.nsu.edu | / | (804) 683-2532 "Make up your own mind! - AMIGA" +--------+ ==================================================
easu052@orion.oac.uci.edu (Thu Ra Tin) (02/19/91)
In article <651.27bcf03a@vger.nsu.edu> manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) writes: >In article <1991Feb15.141309.6025@cbnewsh.att.com>, rkl@cbnewsh.att.com (kevin.laux) writes: >> In article <639.27ba5a65@vger.nsu.edu>, manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) writes: >>> >>> PC and Mac, PC and Mac. Complete ignorance of what is true competition. >>> Neither the Mac nor the PC have truly viable multimedia platforms. I >>> find it interesting that you are completely ignoring the significance >>> of Commodore's CDTV unit. >>> >>> You folks wonder why Amiga people are so "defensive". You see, in a market >>> nearly created by Commodore the only machines mentioned in a message like >>> this is PC and Mac. Ignorance is bliss I guess. >> >> Not at all. CD-I is neither PC or Mac, but a standalone box whose >> main purpose is to deliver multimedia. >> >> As for why PC and Mac are always mentioned, well, the Mac has had >> tools for audio and video production/editing for several years. PC because >> of the installation base. Why would I want to buy *another* computer system >> so I can have multimedia (after I've already spent thousands of dollars on >> hardware and software) when I can readily buy a little more hardware and >> software for my PC? > >Amiga has had tools since its creation in 1985 for both audio and video >production. I grant that the software was at the weak side then, but >it certainly is no longer. At the end of your message you say "Amigas >do multimedia", if you had said that in your initial message you would >not have gotten a message from me claiming "blinders are installed". > > >I might say that if you need to add sound and if you need to add some >more special hardware to bring your video to a NTSC standard for overlaying >laser disk output, and if you need a genlock you could have purchased an >amiga and more than likely all the support hardware that you need. > >> I disagree that neither the Mac nor the PC have truly viable >> multimedia platforms. What makes you say that? What can you do on an >> Amiga that you can't do on a PC or Mac? There has to be an incredibly >> significant advantage to make people switch. After all PC does multimedia, >> Mac does multimedia, Amiga does multimedia, CD-I does multimedia, and Bo >> does multimedia ;-). > I certainly have to agree that Amiga is the best multimedia platform. I have a 386 25MHz clone, Amiga 1000/3000, and a Mac SE/30, and out of them all I think the A3000 is the best platform for producing interactive multimedia presentations. Windows 3.0 on my 25MHz is quite slow compared to the A3000 with AmigaDos 2.0. Even on my friend's 33MHz PC, Windows is still slow. As for the MAC I don't like the way they force you to use point and click only interface. AFter using it for a few days, I get sick o f it. Currently I am developing a prototype learning environment for the HyperLearning Center near UC Irvine and guess which system I am using. A3000 with AmigaVision.
davidm@uunet.UU.NET (David S. Masterson) (02/19/91)
>>>>> On 16 Feb 91 12:48:38 GMT, manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) said:
Mark> CDTV will also play the music CDs as well. No, it is not as exciting as
Mark> what I have read about CD-I, but CDTV is going to be delievered _first_.
Mark> Sometimes the firstest is the bestest. :-)
From what I've heard, it sounded like CDTV would incorporate CD-I chips when
they became readily available. I think Commodore realized that they couldn't
set the "standard", but they could add to it. So, in this case, "firstest"
doesn't matter and "bestest" will have to be determined when they all hit the
market.
--
====================================================================
David Masterson Consilium, Inc.
(415) 691-6311 640 Clyde Ct.
uunet!cimshop!davidm Mtn. View, CA 94043
====================================================================
"If someone thinks they know what I said, then I didn't say it!"kdarling@hobbes.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (02/19/91)
cimshop!davidm@uunet.UU.NET (David S. Masterson) writes: >From what I've heard, it sounded like CDTV would incorporate CD-I chips when >they became readily available. Ummm. I believe that was speculation on the part of rumor columnists in various Amiga magazines. As CDTV players are supposed to have expansion capability, it might be possible to create a partial CD-I card for it... altho the user cost of doing this video upgrade would make it no bargain item, I'm afraid. The CDTV cpu is also slower than the one used in CD-I players; altho that could be replaced offboard as well. Again tho: the cost to the consumer? For a while, at least, I think CDTV players will avoid such a dual personality. Their strong point is supposed to be that titles can be created on Amiga personals, due to the base hardware being the same. regards - kevin <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>
rkl@cbnewsh.att.com (kevin.laux) (02/19/91)
In article <651.27bcf03a@vger.nsu.edu>, manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) writes: -Preceeding discussion deleted- > I might say that if you need to add sound and if you need to add some > more special hardware to bring your video to a NTSC standard for overlaying > laser disk output, and if you need a genlock you could have purchased an > amiga and more than likely all the support hardware that you need. > > Let me ask what software are you planning to use on the > PC? How much is this software? Are you going to use a laser disk for > video? Which genlock are you going to buy? And finally, what will all > this cost? Rough estimate please. I've been developing the Concept Presentation System (CPS) workstation for over 4 years now. CPS is a state of the art Information Delivery system that provides aspects of Training and Documentation to enhance the user's performance (it's *not* just training or documentation, but a Performance Support workstation). CPS provides the user with Conceptual as well as very detailed information on a Just In Time basis at the very same workstation where the user is doing their everyday job (you hot-key and what you were doing is put on hold). CPS is 386/Vga based. Prior to 1990, CPS was laser disc based, with a Sony 3081 Vga/Genlock boardset, an EECO still frame audio decoder (audio is encoded into a video frame, about 10 seconds of audio per video frame), and a Sony 2001 laser disc player. Total cost for enhancing the 386 was about $4000 for hardware and drivers. The workstation configuration did a fine job delivering multimedia for performance support, but it's weak point was that it was too hard to maintain (too many parts that could break, no one place could service it, tangles of cables, and it took up too much real estate, etc.) In 1990, the CPS platform was moved completely into the digital world and is now DVI based. Now a base 386 is enhanced via the addition of the Actionmedia 750 Delivery board and an internal CD-ROM. Current cost is $3000, but is expected to be under $2000 later this year. By going completely digital, almost all of the weak points above have been eliminated. Not only that, but capacity has been boosted significantly. (System must have the capacity for 10 minutes FMV, 22 hours of Audio, and 5500 graphic stills - you can't cram all that onto a laser disc.) My point is that it's not just a matter of adding laser disc, genlock, etc. - the user's environment, information capacity, system response time, etc. all must be taken into consideration. Yes, an Amiga could have delivered multimedia, but as I stated before, the customer wouldn't want to buy another PC that wouldn't be able to run all the other DOS software packages. However, I *would* want an Amiga for a video production tool, because it can run the Video Toaster by New Tek. Now that's a really neat package. It definitely would smooth out the video production, because all of the post editting could be done without using an expensive post production studio. I could save the cost of the Amiga on the first day of post production :-). -- ________________________________________________________________________________ R. Kevin Laux Email: rkl1@hound.att.com AT&T Bell Labs Voice: (908) 949-1160