[comp.sys.amiga.graphics] NEC 3D owners please read!

joem@nos850.UUCP (Joe Muller) (03/09/91)

 Ok people, I've posted this once before and got (what I thought) was
a straight answer.  Now I have been reading about people who have 
been 'using their NEC 3D with their display enhancer perfectly' and this
is driving me batty.  I own a NEC 3D and I WANT a display enhancer but
I would like to know if ANYONE has encountered ANY problems AT ALL using
the NEC 3D in conjunction with the A2320 display enhancer.  Help!

 -Joe Muller

P.S.  Please POST all replies here, since our feed has been kind of shaky.

aaron@stat.tamu.edu (Aaron Hightower) (03/09/91)

In article <236@nos850.UUCP> joem@nos850.UUCP (Joe Muller) writes:
>
> Ok people, I've posted this once before and got (what I thought) was
>a straight answer.  Now I have been reading about people who have 
>been 'using their NEC 3D with their display enhancer perfectly' and this
>is driving me batty.  I own a NEC 3D and I WANT a display enhancer but
>I would like to know if ANYONE has encountered ANY problems AT ALL using
>the NEC 3D in conjunction with the A2320 display enhancer.  Help!
>
> -Joe Muller
>
>P.S.  Please POST all replies here, since our feed has been kind of shaky.

I have an Amiga 3000 and a NEC MultiSync 3D.  The 3D hooked up perfectly and
it displays perfectly.  The thing that I really like about the NEC 3D is that I
can adjust the width and height of the screen to my liking and eliminate the
visibility of the "flicker bug" on the first horizontal row of the display.

While I am here, let me also say that I think that the NEC 3D is the (one of)
the best monitors you could use with the display enhancer.  I have been very
pleased with it, and have absolutely no complaints.  I previously owned a
Commodore 19xx (whatever it was) that really really sucked.  I traded it
for a Optiquest (non-flickering at 1024x768) monitor that was supposed to be
better than the MultiSync 3D (but it did not have width/height adjustment
available in the 31 Khz mode!!!).

Yes!  Definitely get your flicker fixer, and never buy a Commodore MultiSync
monitor, unless you are a glutton for self-punishment.

I hope I offended the right people at Commodore, but I wouldn't expect to be
so lucky.  I was really pissed about the lacking of quality with those damned
monitors.

- Aaron Hightower

steve@wildcat.UUCP (Steve Holland) (03/15/91)

>In article <236@nos850.UUCP> joem@nos850.UUCP (Joe Muller) writes:
>
> Ok people, I've posted this once before and got (what I thought) was
>a straight answer.  Now I have been reading about people who have 
>been 'using their NEC 3D with their display enhancer perfectly' and this
>is driving me batty.  I own a NEC 3D and I WANT a display enhancer but
>I would like to know if ANYONE has encountered ANY problems AT ALL using
>the NEC 3D in conjunction with the A2320 display enhancer.  Help!
Although I do not own a display-enhancer or Nec 3D, I do remember 
something from a technical post a few weeks (months?) ago about a problem
with some early copies of the display-enhancer. Something about a resistor
on the board of the wrong value. This could be what has (?) caused problems
in the past.
>
> -Joe Muller
>
>P.S.  Please POST all replies here, since our feed has been kind of shaky.
done.

----------->Steve Holland<-----------
Internet: wildcat!steve@alfalfa.com  | "I never let my schooling get in the
USENET:  ...!alphalpha!wildcat!steve | way of my education" -Mark Twain
<if alfalfa doesn't work, try alphalpha>

jason@cbmami.UUCP (Jason Goldberg) (03/15/91)

>In article <236@nos850.UUCP> joem@nos850.UUCP (Joe Muller) writes:
>
>> Ok people, I've posted this once before and got (what I thought) was
>>a straight answer.  Now I have been reading about people who have 
>>been 'using their NEC 3D with their display enhancer perfectly' and this
>>is driving me batty.  I own a NEC 3D and I WANT a display enhancer but
>>I would like to know if ANYONE has encountered ANY problems AT ALL using
>>the NEC 3D in conjunction with the A2320 display enhancer.  Help!

>Although I do not own a display-enhancer or Nec 3D, I do remember 
>something from a technical post a few weeks (months?) ago about a problem
>with some early copies of the display-enhancer. Something about a resistor
>on the board of the wrong value. This could be what has (?) caused problems
>in the past.

The A2320 puts out a de-interlaced signal which is runing at approx 30Hz (I
don't have the number in front of me).  The NEC 3D can definately handle
that speed.  So if you want to look at the deinterlaced output (from your
A2320) on your NEC 3D it will work fine.  However, the A2320 has a switch
to go back to normal interlaced output and for that switch to work your
monitor has to support a speed of like 15Hz.  Many Multi-Syncs will not
support that slow of a speed, I believe that the NEC 3D (along with the
A1950) is one of the only "Multi-Sync" monitors that will go that slow.  So
you will even be able to do that with your 3D, the only time you would want
to would be if you were using the ECS SuperHires mode which the A2320 does
not support (no current de-interlacer does).

If all you want is the deinterlaced output (30 Hz) then you can even use a
VGA style monitor.  You just won't be able to turn your A2320 off like you
can with an A1950.  Once again I stress there isn't much reason to want to
turn it off.

The one disapointing thing about the Nec 3D is that it has a slightly
larger scan area than the A1950 and unlike the A1950, you can't adjust the
horizontal and verticle size of the picture.  What this means is that on
the A1950 I can adjust the picture to fill the entire monitor, while on the
NEC 3D I will have black borders around the whole picture.  A side effect
of the Amber chip that the A3000 and A2320 use to de-interlace is that the
first 1/2 of the top scanline still flickers, on a properly adjusted A1950
this can't be seen, but on a NEC 3D you will see it.  No big deal...

The comment about an incorrect resistor has nothing to do with an A2320
working on an NEC 3D.  That refers to a bug on the A2320 which caused two
levels of grey (777 and 888) to appear the same in the de-interlaced mode,
the addition of a $.01 resistor corrects this situation and any authorized
service center should be able to take care of it.

Goodluck,


-Jason-

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Goldberg				UUCP: ucsd!serene!cbmami!jason
Del Mar, CA				

reynolds@iastate.edu (Reynolds Jesse Leonard) (03/21/91)

In article <18d469bd.ARN0f0e@cbmami.UUCP> jason@cbmami.UUCP writes:
>The one disapointing thing about the Nec 3D is that it has a slightly
>larger scan area than the A1950 and unlike the A1950, you can't adjust the
							   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>horizontal and verticle size of the picture.  What this means is that on
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the A1950 I can adjust the picture to fill the entire monitor, while on the
>NEC 3D I will have black borders around the whole picture.  A side effect
>-Jason-
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Jason Goldberg				UUCP: ucsd!serene!cbmami!jason
>Del Mar, CA				

	Can't adjust the verticle and horizontal size of the picture on the
Nec 3d?  Of course you can!  Not only can you set them, you can set where the
guns fire the image at the screen.  And, of course, it remembers the settings
you give it in non-volatile ram.

	8*)
		-Jesse


Jesse Reynolds  |  reynolds@iastate.edu

slc@hoptoad.uucp (Steve Costa) (03/23/91)

In article <1991Mar20.164339.8640@news.iastate.edu> reynolds@iastate.edu (Reynolds Jesse Leonard) writes:
>
>In article <18d469bd.ARN0f0e@cbmami.UUCP> jason@cbmami.UUCP writes:
>>The one disapointing thing about the Nec 3D is that it has a slightly
>>larger scan area than the A1950 and unlike the A1950, you can't adjust the
>							   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>horizontal and verticle size of the picture.  What this means is that on
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>the A1950 I can adjust the picture to fill the entire monitor, while on the
>>NEC 3D I will have black borders around the whole picture.  A side effect
>>-Jason-
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Jason Goldberg				UUCP: ucsd!serene!cbmami!jason
>>Del Mar, CA				
>
>	Can't adjust the verticle and horizontal size of the picture on the
>Nec 3d?  Of course you can!  Not only can you set them, you can set where the
>guns fire the image at the screen.  And, of course, it remembers the settings
>you give it in non-volatile ram.
>
>	8*)
>		-Jesse
>
>
>Jesse Reynolds  |  reynolds@iastate.edu

Although you can adjust the horizontal and vertical resolution, you can't
adjust the horizontal enough to eliminate the borders. In addition, on my
3000, under 2.0, preferences doesn't allow me to adjust the overscan to use
all of the area that the monitor is using; so the usable area is reduced even
more. This seems to be a limitation of WB 2.0, not the NEC 3d.

etac@levels.sait.edu.au (03/23/91)

In article <1991Mar20.164339.8640@news.iastate.edu>, reynolds@iastate.edu (Reynolds Jesse Leonard) writes:
>
> In article <18d469bd.ARN0f0e@cbmami.UUCP> jason@cbmami.UUCP writes:
>>The one disapointing thing about the Nec 3D is that it has a slightly
>>larger scan area than the A1950 and unlike the A1950, you can't adjust the
>                                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>horizontal and verticle size of the picture.  What this means is that on
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>the A1950 I can adjust the picture to fill the entire monitor, while on the
>>NEC 3D I will have black borders around the whole picture.  A side effect
>>-Jason-
>
>       Can't adjust the verticle and horizontal size of the picture on the
> Nec 3d?  Of course you can!  Not only can you set them, you can set where the
> guns fire the image at the screen.  And, of course, it remembers the settings
> you give it in non-volatile ram.
>
>               -Jesse
>
> Jesse Reynolds  |  reynolds@iastate.edu

I recently got my A3000 with NEC 3D monitor. Yes the horizontal and vertical
size and position are both adjustable. I seem to have one small snag though.
The Enhanced-Deinterlacer won't give me a picture that I can centre on the
sceen when using overscan.
  I can adjust the overscan to reach the lefthand edge of the sceen, but
the righthand edge of the picture won't go any closer than about 1.5 cm from
the edge of the sceen, the rest is left in the background colour, unusable.
The result is my picture is offcentre ( nearer the lefthandside). I can
centrallize it by reducing the lefthand overscan. But that reduces the size
of my picture.( the monitor ajustment can't make it any bigger).

  I suspect the this has something to do with the enhancer-deinterlacer, not
the monitor. Interestingly, if I switch to PAL mode instead of Multisync mode
I get a larger picture, and I can centre it.

  Has anyone else noticed this, or know why the multisync picture is so
different from the PAL picture.( why is it smaller? why isn't it centred?)

Andrew Chalmers

Digital Communications Group (D.C.G.)
School of electronic Engineering
University of South Australia

navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David C. Navas) (04/06/91)

In article <16042.27eb7eae@levels.sait.edu.au> etac@levels.sait.edu.au writes:
>  I suspect the this has something to do with the enhancer-deinterlacer, not
>the monitor. Interestingly, if I switch to PAL mode instead of Multisync mode
>I get a larger picture, and I can centre it.

It may, but in multisync mode, the deinterlacer is disabled..
By the way, save you centered PAL/NTSC screens, and when they come up in other
programs -- woila -- they're centered :)

>  Has anyone else noticed this, or know why the multisync picture is so
>different from the PAL picture.( why is it smaller? why isn't it centred?)

Yes I have noticed it.
No I don't know why :(  Probably something to do with the fact that
Productivity pushes those chips way out on the performance curve :)

>Andrew Chalmers

David Navas                                   navas@cory.berkeley.edu
	2.0 :: "You can't have your cake and eat it too."
Also try c186br@holden, c260-ay@ara and c184-ap@torus

etac@levels.sait.edu.au (04/08/91)

In article <12505@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>, navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David C. Navas) writes:
> In article <16042.27eb7eae@levels.sait.edu.au> etac@levels.sait.edu.au writes:
>>  I suspect the this has something to do with the enhancer-deinterlacer, not
>>the monitor. Interestingly, if I switch to PAL mode instead of Multisync mode
>>I get a larger picture, and I can centre it.
>
> It may, but in multisync mode, the deinterlacer is disabled..
> By the way, save you centered PAL/NTSC screens, and when they come up in other
> programs -- woila -- they're centered :)

When I said "switch to PAL mode instead of Multisync mode" I mean manually
changing the Enhancer-deinterlacer switch on the back of the A3000.
The Overscan Editor tool can do it from software somehow. According to it,
PAL is Enhancer-off and Muktisync is Enhancer-on.  Or at least that's
the way it comes up on my machine

>
>>  Has anyone else noticed this, or know why the multisync picture is so
>>different from the PAL picture.( why is it smaller? why isn't it centred?)
>
> Yes I have noticed it.
> No I don't know why :(  Probably something to do with the fact that
> Productivity pushes those chips way out on the performance curve :)
>
>>Andrew Chalmers
>
> David Navas                                   navas@cory.berkeley.edu
>       2.0 :: "You can't have your cake and eat it too."
> Also try c186br@holden, c260-ay@ara and c184-ap@torus

Andrew Chalmers.                 etac@lv.sait.edu.au

navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David C. Navas) (04/09/91)

In article <16145.2800a36e@levels.sait.edu.au> etac@levels.sait.edu.au writes:
>When I said "switch to PAL mode instead of Multisync mode" I mean manually
>changing the Enhancer-deinterlacer switch on the back of the A3000.

Nah, don't do that...  The Enhancer is automatically turned off while in
MultiSync modes.  You'll want to leave it on in PAL -- should look a lot better,
less flickery that way.  Or am I misunderstanding you?

>The Overscan Editor tool can do it from software somehow. According to it,
>PAL is Enhancer-off and Muktisync is Enhancer-on.  Or at least that's
>the way it comes up on my machine

What software were you using to get this info?

I don't see this in my release -- but I have the advantage of being a developer
and getting upgrades to WB releases :)

Anyway -- for multisync, you don't need to disable the Enhancer, because it
disables itself.  For PAL you want the Enhancer *ON* to eliminate flicker in
interlace modes.  In multisync I can't seem to move the screen to the far
right -- but then the multisync uses the right portion of the screen to
increase it's vertical resolution to x480, instead of x400 [for 60Hz].

That's my best guess at the moment.

					-Dave

>
>>
>>>  Has anyone else noticed this, or know why the multisync picture is so
>>>different from the PAL picture.( why is it smaller? why isn't it centred?)
>>
>> Yes I have noticed it.
>> No I don't know why :(  Probably something to do with the fact that
>> Productivity pushes those chips way out on the performance curve :)
>>
>>>Andrew Chalmers
>>
>> David Navas                                   navas@cory.berkeley.edu
>>       2.0 :: "You can't have your cake and eat it too."
>> Also try c186br@holden, c260-ay@ara and c184-ap@torus
>
>Andrew Chalmers.                 etac@lv.sait.edu.au


David Navas                                   navas@cory.berkeley.edu
	2.0 :: "You can't have your cake and eat it too."
Also try c186br@holden, c260-ay@ara and c184-ap@torus