Gord_Wait@mindlink.UUCP (Gord Wait) (03/04/91)
WHOA! there are cheaper ways to get single frame recording going: I have an article from OCT 90 about a new NEC S-VHS recorder called the "PC_VCR" that claims to have an RS232 port on it, and allows single frame animation recording for $2100.00 (US funds). They talk about selling software for MACS and PCs coming soon.. NEC posts a phone number: NEC Tec Pro systems division (708) 860-9500 I don't know if it is vaporware or not, but you should check into it. (beats > $6000.00) Gord Wait
Scott_Busse@mindlink.UUCP (Scott Busse) (03/04/91)
I have asked around the net here, and a few people locally in Vancouver, and the gist is that the PC-VCR is not suitable for single frame animation. They do not profess single frame accuracy, and the deck is supposedly not rugged enough for that kind of activity. If you think about it, why would any company shoot itself, and it's industrial and commercial customers in the foot by selling something to the consumer for $2100.00 that they normally get $10,000.00 for in an industrial deck/controller combo :) * Scott Busse email: O O O_ _ ___ ..... * CIS 73040,2114 ||| /|\ /\ O/\_ / O )=| * a763@mindlink.UUCP l | | |\ / \ /\ _\ * uunet!van-bc!rsoft!mindlink!Scott_Busse Live Long and Animate... \
Gord_Wait@mindlink.UUCP (Gord Wait) (03/04/91)
Too bad... Technically it shouldn't cost much to add single frame capability, but they always seem to soak ya for it. Any video deck capable of a flying erase head insert edit is accurate enough to splice in a frame of video, but they all lack the timecode and timing electronics. (I have seen a timecode reader chip that sells for 10 - 20 bucks..) I think the real problem is the lack of a real market for a single frame deck.. you don't need single frame for anything but animation, so why spend the extra bucks. To back up my claim that it should be cheaper, my $1200.00 pentax 8 mm deck has an 'animation' mode that allows me to do 4 frame assemble edits at every push of the record button. (8 fields) This is ok for mucking about with claymation, but this gives you only 30/4 = 7.5 frames a second, which looks fairly jerky. Not much farther to go to cause the thing to do 2 field edits, mind you, you have to start dealing with color frame problems...... Gord Wait
Scott_Busse@mindlink.UUCP (Scott Busse) (03/05/91)
Gord, you're right about the market demand, I think. The fact is, I have single frame capability, and I don't even use it much. (Of course, I wouldn't be without it...:) * Scott Busse email: O O O_ _ ___ ..... * CIS 73040,2114 ||| /|\ /\ O/\_ / O )=| * a763@mindlink.UUCP l | | |\ / \ /\ _\ * uunet!van-bc!rsoft!mindlink!Scott_Busse Live Long and Animate... \
tope@enea.se (Tommy Petersson) (03/06/91)
In article <4980@mindlink.UUCP- Gord_Wait@mindlink.UUCP (Gord Wait) writes:
-WHOA! there are cheaper ways to get single frame recording going:
-I have an article from OCT 90 about a new NEC S-VHS recorder called the
-"PC_VCR" that claims to have an RS232 port on it, and allows single frame
-animation recording for $2100.00 (US funds). They talk about selling software
-for MACS and PCs coming soon.. NEC posts a phone number:
-NEC Tec
-Pro systems division
-(708) 860-9500
-
-I don't know if it is vaporware or not, but you should check into it.
-(beats > $6000.00)
-
-Gord Wait
I have seen a Video Camera (probably JVC) in a shop that according to
the information beside it has "single-frame animation recording".
Anyone has any experience in this? (the shop is the kind where you
have to promise to buy the stuff you want demonstrated).
Tommy Petersson
tope@enea.seScott_Busse@mindlink.UUCP (Scott Busse) (03/07/91)
I have heard from someone, BCD Associates I think, that they had very good results with the AG1950, which was the pre-SVHS verstion of the 1960, I think. So if the mechanism is the same, it probably does work well... 0 | \ ________Scott Busse /\_^_| |__ /_________CIS 73040,2114 `__ ----- \____/___________a763@mindlink.UUCP /\ _|_ \____________uunet!van-bc!rsoft!mindlink!Scott_Busse
mucci@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Philip J Mucci) (03/07/91)
I believe that the Panasonic AG1960 can do single frame recording. This deck can be had in NY for approx 2000$. Correct me if I'm wrong. -phil mucci
patyoung@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com (Patrick Young) (03/09/91)
The JVC 10000U has single frame animation recording capabilities, but when I read the user's manual for specifications, it mentioned that this S-VHS VCR deck is not meant for continuous use and that the frame accuracy is plus or minus two frames but the animation that is recorded is I think is three frames wide (i.e. you can get 8 animated frames per second unless you record a frame of animation and then back up two frames to try to get 24 frames of animation per second). But this deck does have all sorts of other features and the last price from the grey market that I got was $2000 (retail is ~$3000--3500). As for the Panasonic AG1960 S-VHS VCR, I don't believe it has a built in ability to do single frame recording.
Scott_Busse@mindlink.UUCP (Scott Busse) (03/09/91)
Patrick Young writes: > As for the Panasonic AG1960 S-VHS VCR, I don't believe it has a built > in ability to do single frame recording. It doesn't have a built in single frame animation capability, but I do believe it has frame accurate editing capabilities. This means that either you can manually edit together your own single frame sequence, or you can use a frame controller like the BCD-5000 or the VLAN to control the process (using Transport Controller software or ?). Scott
billc@cryo.UUCP (William J. Coldwell) (03/09/91)
In article <4980@mindlink.UUCP> Gord_Wait@mindlink.UUCP (Gord Wait) writes: >WHOA! there are cheaper ways to get single frame recording going: >I have an article from OCT 90 about a new NEC S-VHS recorder called the >"PC_VCR" that claims to have an RS232 port on it, and allows single frame >animation recording for $2100.00 (US funds). They talk about selling software >for MACS and PCs coming soon.. NEC posts a phone number: >NEC Tec >Pro systems division >(708) 860-9500 Yeh, one of my friends at Mimetics went to a recent video show and got to see one of these puppies in action. He was so impressed that he faxed the specs to us and requested that support be put into 3-D Professional for it. >I don't know if it is vaporware or not, but you should check into it. >(beats > $6000.00) Don't know when it will be available for consumers, but NEC is definetly getting a ringy-dingy from me. >Gord Wait -- +------+ William J. Coldwell Amiga Attitude Adjuster Cryogenic Software /| /| PLink: CRYO, BIX: wjcoldwell, UUCP:...tektronix!percy!cryo!billc +-|----+ | NAG-BBS: 503/656-7393, NES-BBX: 503/640-9337, Work: 503/255-3682 | +----|-+ // Sometimes you gotta be cool to be hot: I'm a 3-DPro Tracer. |/ |/ \X/ Amiga Amiga Amiga Amiga Amiga Amiga Amiga Amiga Amiga Amiga +------+ STD_DSCLMR "All opinions above are mine, and you can't have them."
katzung@i88.isc.com (Brian Katzung) (03/11/91)
In article <7712@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU> mucci@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Philip J Mucci) writes: | | I believe that the Panasonic AG1960 can do single frame |recording. This deck can be had in NY for approx 2000$. Correct me if |I'm wrong. | |-phil mucci As far as I know, you'd have to record and back up to get frame by frame. This could be automated with a Future Video EC1000 PRO/TC (it has an RS232 interface and SMPTE). I've seen prices around $1000, and actually in stock for $1100. -- Brian Katzung katzung@i88.isc.com
ron@vicorp.com (Ron Peterson) (03/14/91)
In article <2753@enea.se> tope@enea.se (Tommy Petersson) writes: >I have seen a Video Camera (probably JVC) in a shop that according to >the information beside it has "single-frame animation recording". >Anyone has any experience in this? (the shop is the kind where you >have to promise to buy the stuff you want demonstrated). I saw one of these on display at Sears. Didn't ask for a demo but it was all hooked up and ready to go. Probably fairly easy to get a salesman to let you try it there.
mark@calvin..westford.ccur.com (Mark Thompson) (03/18/91)
>In article <4980@mindlink.UUCP- Gord_Wait@mindlink.UUCP (Gord Wait) writes: >-WHOA! there are cheaper ways to get single frame recording going: >-I have an article from OCT 90 about a new NEC S-VHS recorder called the >-"PC_VCR" that claims to have an RS232 port on it, and allows single frame >-animation recording for $2100.00 (US funds). First off, the NEC PC-VCR is useless for single frame recording. It is intended for multimedia playback and inexpensive editting. Now the real news!!!!...At the AmigaWorld Expo in New York, JVC was showing (but not demonstrating) a NEW industrial VCR that was capable of recording single frame animation *WITHOUT* an animation controller (like those from Diaquest, Lyon Lamb, BCD, etc). The JVC rep said it was designed specifically with this application in mind and they were hoping to open up a whole new market. It was S-VHS format, had rs-232 inputs, and was meant to be as easy to communicate to as the expensive animation controllers. The model number was something like BV-S605U (I am certain of the 605 #) and is expected to list between $2200 and $2600. It should be available in about 45 days. The rep I spoke to said the heads and transport are of industrial quality and are meant to stand up to the rigors of single frame animation. %~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~% % ` ' Mark Thompson % % --==* RADIANT *==-- mark@westford.ccur.com % % ' Image ` ...!{decvax,uunet}!masscomp!mark % % Productions (508)392-2480 (603)424-1829 % % % ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ken_Cooper@mindlink.UUCP (Ken Cooper) (03/23/91)
Brian YAMANAKA/Sony Corporation, Personal Video Group writes:
Time-code is a RSN feature of some consumer products (look at my sig
and see how I know), but this still won't allow inexpensive
single-frame recording. The problem is not in the electronics, but in
the mechanical constraints. Single frame recording records the VCR
to remain in pause for a considerable amount of the time. Contrary
to what some might believe, this puts the most amount of wear on a
VCR and the tape. (That's why most VCR's will release pause after
several minutes.) In addition to pause the VCR must backspace and
pre-roll to the next insert point to insure proper video sync.
------
As limited as my knowledge is regarding the mechanics of VCR's, it seems that
there should be a simple solution for single framing. Just look at how a 35mm
cine setup is constructed. The film is in position, registered and just sits
there. No stretching, no motors running etc. When some data is finally dumped
onto the film, an iteration happens and its back to standby mode again.
I get the feeling that when using a VCR, we are using a thorough-bred unit,
when all we need is something that works like a mule :)
There should be a lever that when flipped, releases all the current built-in
pressures and puts the machine into another work state.yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp (Brian Yamanaka) (03/23/91)
In article <4989@mindlink.UUCP> Gord_Wait@mindlink.UUCP (Gord Wait) writes: In a previous message Mr. Wait writes: |Too bad... Technically it shouldn't cost much to add single frame capability, |but they always seem to soak ya for it. Any video deck capable of a flying |erase head insert edit is accurate enough to splice in a frame of video, but Consumer level flying erase heads still do not allow a single frame to be recorded. There is a lot more involved in inserting a frame - proper sync, tape stretch, etc. |they all lack the timecode and timing electronics. (I have seen a timecode |reader chip that sells for 10 - 20 bucks..) I think the real problem is the |lack of a real market for a single frame deck.. you don't need single frame for Time-code is a RSN feature of some consumer products (look at my sig and see how I know), but this still won't allow inexpensive single-frame recording. The problem is not in the electronics, but in the mechanical constraints. Single frame recording records the VCR to remain in pause for a considerable amount of the time. Contrary to what some might believe, this puts the most amount of wear on a VCR and the tape. (That's why most VCR's will release pause after several minutes.) In addition to pause the VCR must backspace and pre-roll to the next insert point to insure proper video sync. All this movement require a mechanical deck which is constructed to much higher tolerances than a standard consumer deck. This includes a head assembly that is of higher durability which adds to the cost. Of course we may soon have a single-frame VCR at a substantially lower price, but as mentioned this requires sufficient demand for it to be feasible. |anything but animation, so why spend the extra bucks. To back up my claim that |it should be cheaper, my $1200.00 pentax 8 mm deck has an 'animation' mode that |allows me to do 4 frame assemble edits at every push of the record button. (8 |fields) This is ok for mucking about with claymation, but this gives you only |30/4 = 7.5 frames a second, which looks fairly jerky. Not much farther to go to |cause the thing to do 2 field edits, mind you, you have to start dealing with |color frame problems...... This 'animation' mode is not really recommended for extensive use for the reasons described above. It was originally intended for simple time lapse recording. | |Gord Wait | This was not meant as a flame but an attempt to help others understand that single frame recording is a lot harder than it sounds. Of course everything mentioned in this note is my own opinion and in no way reflects the views of my employer. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Brian YAMANAKA |"I knew I should have made that Sony Corporation, Personal Video Group | left turn at Alburqurque." Email: yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp | -Bugs Bunny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gord_Wait@mindlink.UUCP (Gord Wait) (03/25/91)
I appreciate that single frame recording is extremely tough on a video deck, but I guess you haven't convinced me that it has to be expensive.. Humour me, here and see if this makes sense: For my pentax to be able to do the 4 frame insert edit, the tape deck spins up the heads, does a bit of preroll, and with the accuracy of probably less than a horzontal line of video starting from the vertcal interval, erases line by line the existing video track, replaces it with incoming video, and after 4 frames quits. Upon playback there is no apparent jump in the video, so I assume the control track is still intact. Since this deck doesn't have a TBC, the output probably isn't the best, but never the less, the ONLY difference between this and a Single Frame edit (ignoring color frame problems for now, just mechanical issues) is that the counter in my camera counts to 4 before it quits, instead of counting to 1. The other difference, is that lacking time code, I have no way to accurately start the record at a specific frame, BUT I do have the mechanical capability to cut in new video starting in the vertical interval and ending in the vertical interval. By the way, this mode works whether I have pre-striped the tape with video, (insert edit) or if I start with a blank tape (assemble). I know that I wouldn't want to try to broadcast the video I get from this mode, but it is more than adequate for an animation preview. In summary, I believe that if it the deck is accurate enough to do flying erase edits, then it is more than accurate enough to do a single frame edit. As to being hard on the deck, I would much rather wear out an $800 deck than a $10,000 deck on animation previews. Please correct me if and where I am wrong. Sincerly, Gord Wait. -- Gord Wait Member of Technical Staff ASIC Engineering SMOS Systems Vancouver Design Center Gord_Wait@mindlink.UUCP
Gord_Wait@mindlink.UUCP (Gord Wait) (03/25/91)
The reason that 'still frame' recording isn't done (except in the 1 inch sony 2500 machine.. and others like it..) is the path that the video head takes over the tape. To rehash, the video is recorded as 'green bean' slices along the tape. In full play 1 times speed, the path that the head takes along the tape is different than the path that the head wants to take when the tape is stationary. To visualize, imagine the bean slice shape as the tape goes past the head faster and faster.. The slices become longer and longer. (bean slices like this: \\\\) The reverse is true as you slow down the tape. (keeping the rotating head speed constant by the way..) So in still playback and record on the sony 2500, the playback and record heads are physically wobbled back and forth in time with the head rotation, so as to keep the head aligned with the bean slice shape that corresponds to the normal playback slice. In consumer decks, they play magic tricks with partial or even full frame storage, and multiple tape reads to maintain that nice clear image. Mucho complicated to do in record mode, so they don't do it for the small number of us who would like it, and like it cheap. Gord Wait -- Gord Wait Member of Technical Staff ASIC Engineering SMOS Systems Vancouver Design Center Gord_Wait@mindlink.UUCP
sheasby@dgp.toronto.edu (Michael C. Sheasby) (03/25/91)
Ken_Cooper@mindlink.UUCP (Ken Cooper) writes: >Brian YAMANAKA/Sony Corporation, Personal Video Group writes: >> single-frame recording. The problem is not in the electronics, but in >> the mechanical constraints. Single frame recording records the VCR >> to remain in pause for a considerable amount of the time. Contrary >> to what some might believe, this puts the most amount of wear on a >> VCR and the tape. (That's why most VCR's will release pause after >As limited as my knowledge is regarding the mechanics of VCR's, it seems that >there should be a simple solution for single framing. Just look at how a 35mm >cine setup is constructed. The film is in position, registered and just sits >there. No stretching, no motors running etc. When some data is finally dumped Unfortunately, that just ain't gonna happen. The tape is pulled out of its case and into the guts of the machine into an 'M' shape (for VHS.. for Beta, it looks like a Beta, thus the name)... It's wrapped around a drum which is rotating against the tape, which allows a greater bandwidth of information to be pulled off the tape than if the tape was just running past a stationary head (like an audio tape). As long as this 'M' shape has to be maintained, the tape is going to have to lie against the drum. I suspect that the reason we don't see the drum starting and stopping has something to do with a cushioning air boundary between tape and drum when it is at speed, or some such reason. What would be awfully nice would be if the mechanism used in some 1" machines could be transferred to a consumer single-frame recorder, where the tape does remain static but the head goes whistling by to slice in a single frame across the tape (called a flying record head, like a flying erase head). This makes a lot more sense to me than getting the whole vcr up to speed, as is being suggested here. total charge: $.02 ---Mike.
Ken_Cooper@mindlink.UUCP (Ken Cooper) (03/25/91)
Brian YAMANAKA writes:
(Personally I'm waiting for digital recording to become available on the
Amiga)
---------
So this means D1 or D2 format (or somesuch), which then puts us back to
thorough-bred prices :)yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp (Brian Yamanaka) (03/25/91)
In article <5240@mindlink.UUCP> Ken_Cooper@mindlink.UUCP (Ken Cooper) writes: Ken Cooper writes: >>Brian YAMANAKA/Sony Corporation, Personal Video Group writes: >> >> Time-code is a RSN feature of some consumer products (look at my sig >> and see how I know), but this still won't allow inexpensive >> single-frame recording. The problem is not in the electronics, but in >> the mechanical constraints. Single frame recording records the VCR >> to remain in pause for a considerable amount of the time. Contrary >> to what some might believe, this puts the most amount of wear on a >> VCR and the tape. (That's why most VCR's will release pause after >> several minutes.) In addition to pause the VCR must backspace and >> pre-roll to the next insert point to insure proper video sync. >> >>------ > >As limited as my knowledge is regarding the mechanics of VCR's, it seems that >there should be a simple solution for single framing. Just look at how a 35mm >cine setup is constructed. The film is in position, registered and just sits The difference here is that 35mm film has actual guides (the holes on both sides) which allow the frames to be positioned and held in position. Video on the other hand relies on signals (control track) recorded on the tape. In order to read the signal the tape must actually be played to determine the start and end of a frame (which is actually two video fields). >there. No stretching, no motors running etc. When some data is finally dumped >onto the film, an iteration happens and its back to standby mode again. > >I get the feeling that when using a VCR, we are using a thorough-bred unit, >when all we need is something that works like a mule :) I wish this were true, but single-frame recording requires a thorough-bred and not a mule. The best solution is just to avoid a VCR and use a laser disc recording system. Of course this is expensive, but until digital recording becomes common (ala SuperMAC) laser disk is the best solution. (Personally I'm waiting for digital recording to become available on the Amiga) Best regards. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Brian YAMANAKA (aka The VISCA dude) |"I knew I should have made that Sony Corporation, Personal Video Group | left turn at Alburqurque." Email: yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp | -Bugs Bunny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp (Brian Yamanaka) (03/27/91)
In article <5252@mindlink.UUCP> Gord_Wait@mindlink.UUCP (Gord Wait) writes: Gord Whitman states: |I appreciate that single frame recording is extremely tough on a video deck, |but I guess you haven't convinced me that it has to be expensive.. Humour me, |here and see if this makes sense: |For my pentax to be able to do the 4 frame insert edit, the tape deck spins up |the heads, does a bit of preroll, and with the accuracy of probably less than a |horzontal line of video starting from the vertcal interval, erases line by line |the existing video track, replaces it with incoming video, and after 4 frames Video is written in a single pass as a complete field thus it is only possible to start from the vertical interval and not a horizontal interval. Actually this means it is either hit or miss - we either start at the correct field or overwrite the previous field. That's why the deck writes four frames to insure that at least two or three fields are not overwritten. |quits. Upon playback there is no apparent jump in the video, so I assume the |control track is still intact. Since this deck doesn't have a TBC, the output |probably isn't the best, but never the less, the ONLY difference between this |and a Single Frame edit (ignoring color frame problems for now, just mechanical |issues) is that the counter in my camera counts to 4 before it quits, instead |of counting to 1. The other difference, is that lacking time code, I have no |way to accurately start the record at a specific frame, BUT I do have the |mechanical capability to cut in new video starting in the vertical interval and |ending in the vertical interval. By the way, this mode works whether I have |pre-striped the tape with video, (insert edit) or if I start with a blank tape |(assemble). I know that I wouldn't want to try to broadcast the video I get |from this mode, but it is more than adequate for an animation preview. In |summary, I believe that if it the deck is accurate enough to do flying erase |edits, then it is more than accurate enough to do a single frame edit. As to |being hard on the deck, I would much rather wear out an $800 deck than a |$10,000 deck on animation previews. Please correct me if and where I am wrong. |Sincerly, Gord Wait. Well you got me there. Actually I hadn't actually tried to use a deck with four frame recording until you mentioned this. I used a new camcorder model that has time-code but mechanically is probably identical to your Pentax. It seems that the camera could be used for "animation preview", but again the largest issue is the pure durability of the mechanical deck. The unit was not designed for constant use of this feature and we could not possibly honor the warranty for such a product. I would have to agree that a product for "animation preview" would be very desirable. The problem here would have to be purely a marketing decision. Demand would have to warrant the development costs of such a deck and the possible costs in supportting such a product. Currently single frame recording is seen as a fad. Video tape technology may not be the best solution, and will be replaced by digital recording directly to hard disk (using some sort of compression). By storing the animation to disk it is easier to edit with guaranteed accuracy. Of course the final animation would be then recorded to video for distribution. Of course this is strictly my own opinion (and would probably surprise my employers). Personally I would love a deck which could do "animation preview" and I will keep this in mind when discussing such issues. I wish I could promise more than that, but I want to keep my job. |-- |Gord Wait |Member of Technical Staff |ASIC Engineering |SMOS Systems |Vancouver Design Center |Gord_Wait@mindlink.UUCP Best regards, Brian -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Brian YAMANAKA (aka The VISCA dude) |"I knew I should have made that Sony Corporation, Personal Video Group | left turn at Albuquerque." Email: yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp | -Bugs Bunny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp (Brian Yamanaka) (03/28/91)
In article <5256@mindlink.UUCP> Ken_Cooper@mindlink.UUCP (Ken Cooper) writes: | |Brian YAMANAKA writes: | |(Personally I'm waiting for digital recording to become available on the |Amiga) | |--------- | |So this means D1 or D2 format (or somesuch), which then puts us back to |thorough-bred prices :) I'm not talking about D1 or D2 but direct recording to hard disk as shown by Super Mac at MacWorld. This method uses high speed hard drives and JPEG compression to get full-motion video at 24 fps. Of course this isn't 30 fps, but 24 fps is what the motion picture industry uses. Having the video stored on hard disk allows editing to be done at the frame level digitally withou generation loss. For single frame animation this seems to be the best answer. JPEG hardware is not that difficult to make and as hard drive capacities continue to grow and prices continue to fall, this may be just the answer. Of course then the Amiga would need 24 bit color capability (which is already becoming available) and a willing manufacturer. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Brian YAMANAKA (aka The VISCA dude) |"I knew I should have made that Sony Corporation, Personal Video Group | left turn at Albuquerque." Email: yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp | -Bugs Bunny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) (03/29/91)
In article <YAMANAKA.91Mar28133151@probe.cv.sony.co.jp> yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp (Brian Yamanaka) writes: >In article <5256@mindlink.UUCP> Ken_Cooper@mindlink.UUCP (Ken Cooper) writes: > >| >|Brian YAMANAKA writes: >| >|(Personally I'm waiting for digital recording to become available on the >|Amiga) >| >|--------- >| >|So this means D1 or D2 format (or somesuch), which then puts us back to >|thorough-bred prices :) > >I'm not talking about D1 or D2 but direct recording to hard disk as >shown by Super Mac at MacWorld. This method uses high speed hard >drives and JPEG compression to get full-motion video at 24 fps. Of >course this isn't 30 fps, but 24 fps is what the motion picture industry >uses. > >Having the video stored on hard disk allows editing to be done at the >frame level digitally withou generation loss. For single frame >animation this seems to be the best answer. JPEG hardware is not that >difficult to make and as hard drive capacities continue to grow and >prices continue to fall, this may be just the answer. > >Of course then the Amiga would need 24 bit color capability (which is >already becoming available) and a willing manufacturer. > >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Brian YAMANAKA (aka The VISCA dude) |"I knew I should have made that > Sony Corporation, Personal Video Group | left turn at Albuquerque." > Email: yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp | -Bugs Bunny >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I suspect that we will see lots of 24 fps animation coming from CDTV programs in the not so distant future. One company that I know of already has a game on the market that does 12fps on the NEC Turbografix. The animation is done in a window smaller than the screen, and is slow. The reasons for this is in the limitations of the NEC machine itself. Considering that the Amiga hard disks can transfer 2MB per second, you get 87381 bytes per 24th of a second. This is more than enough to get you full frame HAM/SHAM/etc. animation from hard disk. For 6 bitplane HAM mode animation, it would require 69 Megabytes per minute of video (690 for 10 minutes). At 24 frames per second, there is a lot of time to allow for the CPU to perform decompression. If you get 50% compression, you could easily fit an entire 30-minute TV show on one hard disk. I am talking about existing/older Amiga technology, but it is still quite impressive. -- ******************************************************** * Appendix A of the Amiga Hardware Manual tells you * * everything you need to know to take full advantage * * of the power of the Amiga. And it is only 10 pages! * ********************************************************
ACPS1072@RYERSON <ACPS1072@Ryerson.CA> (03/30/91)
> I'm not talking about D1 or D2 but direct recording to hard disk as > shown by Super Mac at MacWorld. This method uses high speed hard > drives and JPEG compression to get full-motion video at 24 fps. Of > course this isn't 30 fps, but 24 fps is what the motion picture industry > uses. I remember seeing this Super Mac hardware at the october MacWorld here in Toronto. The person displaying the equipment said it was a prototype and was not available for sale (mind you that was in october, things may have changed). One of the things that bugged me about this particular equipment was that there was a lot of tearing and the image did not fill the entire 13inch screen. The sound being played back along with the scanned images was kind of neat though. Still the harddrive they were using was 600 meg for a few minutes of animation (and the pictures were slightly bigger than a quarter of the screen). This seems kind of expensive compared to tape. Perhaps some sort of LaserDisc media would be a better way to go. I realize I'm probably babbling but thought I'd get my two cents in. Derek Lang<<<<< | ACPS1072@Ryerson | "Get this clown trained. I want him in the games Toronto, ON | until he dies playing. Acknowledge." Canada | - Master Control Program
sysop@tlvx.UUCP (SysOp) (04/01/91)
In article <YAMANAKA.91Mar27104122@probe.cv.sony.co.jp>, yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp (Brian Yamanaka) writes: ..... > Currently single frame recording is seen as a fad. Video tape > technology may not be the best solution, and will be replaced by > digital recording directly to hard disk (using some sort of > compression). By storing the animation to disk it is easier to edit > with guaranteed accuracy. Of course the final animation would be then > recorded to video for distribution. > If I create animations of several seconds or more in length, how easy would it be to record them as one long animation? I've seen that VCR's with the jog-shuttles are coming down in price; I ask the salesmen how it works for editing, and they don't seem to clear on the specifics. :-) I mean, they explain that it's for frame-accuracy "for use in editing," but what good is that accuracy if you can't record? Could you record them, but there'd be some sort of artifact inbetween the segments? I'm afraid someone will have to go into a bit of detail on how you would edit (with 2 decks?). (Currently I have a cheapo VHS VCR without much capability.) I would like to get a new VCR one of these days anyway (in order to get the Stereo HI-FI), and might as well try to get something that would be good for this sort of thing, if at all possible. (I know, just wait until we have better compression and can simply play the whole thing from the hard drive at once! Wait, I need to get a hard drive.... :-) ) > Of course this is strictly my own opinion (and would probably surprise > my employers). Why would it surprise them? > Personally I would love a deck which could do > "animation preview" and I will keep this in mind when discussing such > issues. I wish I could promise more than that, but I want to keep my job. > .... > Best regards, > Brian > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Brian YAMANAKA (aka The VISCA dude) |"I knew I should have made that > Sony Corporation, Personal Video Group | left turn at Albuquerque." > Email: yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp | -Bugs Bunny > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Gary Wolfe, SYSOP of the Temporal Vortex BBS // Amiga! ..uflorida!unf7!tlvx!sysop, unf7!tlvx!sysop@bikini.cis.ufl.edu \X/ Yeah!
ignatz@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (60189000) (04/04/91)
In article <469@tlvx.UUCP> sysop@tlvx.UUCP (SysOp) writes: >In article <YAMANAKA.91Mar27104122@probe.cv.sony.co.jp>, yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp (Brian Yamanaka) writes: >..... >> Currently single frame recording is seen as a fad. Video tape >> technology may not be the best solution, and will be replaced by >> digital recording directly to hard disk (using some sort of >> compression). By storing the animation to disk it is easier to edit >> with guaranteed accuracy. Of course the final animation would be then >> recorded to video for distribution. >> There is a thread similar to this concurrently in rec.arts.animation. Because I dont believe in cross posting, I thought Id rewrite my predicament. Im an animation student, meaning I churn out lots and lots of animated drawings daily. Currently I shoot them with a super 8 camera and wait about a week before seeing results. Ive been looking for a decent pencil test alternative which with I wouldnt have to wait weeks to view. Video camcorders dont quite seem to offer exactly what I need, at least the ones I can afford dont, and I certainly cant go out and buy a lyon-lamb pencil test system. Here's the scoop -- I have an amiga 500 which Ive been playing around with for computer animation. Im wondering--can anyone tell me a way to connect a video digitizer to it, which could digitize each drawing (from paper via video camera) and store it in the computer in such a way that I can flip say 30 pages? I do not need color, or sharp resolution (low res would be fine) because this is just pencil testing and only the motion is important. Being that Im not the most knoweledgable person when it comes to the Amiga Im asking that some of you Amiga genuises help me out. Id really appreciate it. Ignatz Maouse.
Gord_Wait@mindlink.UUCP (Gord Wait) (04/05/91)
A friend of mine has the digiview package, and deluxe paint III on an amiga 500. He has used this combination a few times to take in several frames of live video, and make an animation (monochrome) out of it in deluxe paint III. It seems to me what you would need. Ie - a camera, digiview, and some anim capable program. gord wait -- Gord Wait Member of Technical Staff ASIC Engineering SMOS Systems Vancouver Design Center Gord_Wait@mindlink.UUCP
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (04/05/91)
In article <14124@darkstar.ucsc.edu> ignatz@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (60189000) writes: > >Im an animation student, meaning I churn out lots and lots of animated >drawings daily. Currently I shoot them with a super 8 camera and wait >about a week before seeing results. Ive been looking for a decent >pencil test alternative which with I wouldnt have to wait weeks to view. >Video camcorders dont quite seem to offer exactly what I need, at least >the ones I can afford dont, and I certainly cant go out and buy a lyon-lamb >pencil test system. Here's the scoop -- I have an amiga 500 which Ive >been playing around with for computer animation. Im wondering--can anyone >tell me a way to connect a video digitizer to it, which could digitize >each drawing (from paper via video camera) and store it in the computer >in such a way that I can flip say 30 pages? I do not need color, or sharp >resolution (low res would be fine) because this is just pencil testing >and only the motion is important. Forgive me when I can't give you many precise product names, I only know there *is* really such a beast existing. You have two alternatives: 1. You do also the drawing on your Amiga. As far as I hear, Disney Animation studio (this is a software!) is 100 % what you seem to need. 2. You really do it by digitizing your paper drawings with a camera. If you have done this frame for frame, you perhaps have to process your image files to convert them down to one single bitplane, only b&w. This gives you the advantage of working with extremely small files that are processed fast and loaded/displayed fast. To bind together such a bunch of files to one animation, there exist tools like PageFlipper, but also others (would DPIII do?) also in the Public Domain. -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp (Brian Yamanaka) (04/05/91)
In article <469@tlvx.UUCP> sysop@tlvx.UUCP (SysOp) writes: |In article <YAMANAKA.91Mar27104122@probe.cv.sony.co.jp>, yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp (Brian Yamanaka) writes: |..... |> Currently single frame recording is seen as a fad. Video tape |> technology may not be the best solution, and will be replaced by |> digital recording directly to hard disk (using some sort of |> compression). By storing the animation to disk it is easier to edit |> with guaranteed accuracy. Of course the final animation would be then |> recorded to video for distribution. |> | |If I create animations of several seconds or more in length, how easy would |it be to record them as one long animation? I've seen that VCR's with |the jog-shuttles are coming down in price; I ask the salesmen how it works |for editing, and they don't seem to clear on the specifics. :-) I mean, |they explain that it's for frame-accuracy "for use in editing," but what |good is that accuracy if you can't record? Could you record them, but there'd |be some sort of artifact inbetween the segments? I'm afraid someone |will have to go into a bit of detail on how you would edit (with 2 decks?). |(Currently I have a cheapo VHS VCR without much capability.) I would like |to get a new VCR one of these days anyway (in order to get the Stereo |HI-FI), and might as well try to get something that would be good for this |sort of thing, if at all possible. The consumer decks with jog-shuttle allow for easier editing and location of insert points. However, when switching from play-pause to record some may move a couple of frames. That is why VCR's have search accuracy and edit accuracy. Most can provide very accurate search accuracy (+/- 0 frames), but they cannot provide the same level of edit accuracy. Of greater concern is that to achieve a clean edit, the deck should do some sort of pre-roll. Pre-roll simply put means that a VCR remembers where it wants to insert, backs up the tape, plays until the insert point, and begins recording at the insert point. This requires two very important elements: time-code and flying erase heads. Flying erase heads are becoming a standard feature on most decks (all 8mm VCRs have them), but time-code is currently not available in any VCR. This will change in the future (look for them RSN). | |(I know, just wait until we have better compression and can simply play |the whole thing from the hard drive at once! Wait, I need to get a hard |drive.... :-) ) | |> Of course this is strictly my own opinion (and would probably surprise |> my employers). | |Why would it surprise them? It would suprise them that an employee of the personal video division (whose entire business is based on video tape) is saying that the format should be replaced by digital recording to another type of media. As usual everything I say in no way reflects the views of my employer. |-- |Gary Wolfe, SYSOP of the Temporal Vortex BBS // Amiga! |..uflorida!unf7!tlvx!sysop, unf7!tlvx!sysop@bikini.cis.ufl.edu \X/ Yeah! -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Brian YAMANAKA (aka The VISCA dude) |"I knew I should have made that Sony Corporation, Personal Video Group | left turn at Albuquerque." Email: yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp | -Bugs Bunny Phone: +81-3-5488-6160 | FAX: +81-3-5488-6469 |Hawaii,Illinois,Japan...what's next?
jlange@oracle.com (Jim Lange) (04/06/91)
In article <14124@darkstar.ucsc.edu> ignatz@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (60189000) writes:
Im an animation student, meaning I churn out lots and lots of animated
drawings daily. Currently I shoot them with a super 8 camera and wait
about a week before seeing results. Ive been looking for a decent
pencil test alternative which with I wouldnt have to wait weeks to view.
Ignatz Maouse.
From what I have read, this is exacly how Disney Studios uses amigas. They
digitize hand drawings using Digiview, then fine tune the motion using Disney
Animation Studio (the software product). This software allows you to load and
animate many frames in its black & white mode using special compression
techniques (better that the ANIM format used by other Amiga software).
I have also heard of artists using Digiview with Photon Cell Animator for this
same purpose.
Jim Lange
Oracle Corporationbobl@graphics.rent.com (Bob Lindabury - SysAdm) (04/06/91)
jlange@oracle.com (Jim Lange) writes: > In article <14124@darkstar.ucsc.edu> ignatz@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (60189000) writes: > > Im an animation student, meaning I churn out lots and lots of animated > drawings daily. Currently I shoot them with a super 8 camera and wait > about a week before seeing results. Ive been looking for a decent > pencil test alternative which with I wouldnt have to wait weeks to view. > > Ignatz Maouse. > > From what I have read, this is exacly how Disney Studios uses amigas. They > digitize hand drawings using Digiview, then fine tune the motion using Disney > Animation Studio (the software product). This software allows you to load an > animate many frames in its black & white mode using special compression > techniques (better that the ANIM format used by other Amiga software). Disney "The Animation Studio" actually has "Onion Skin" and "Pencil Test" portions to the program. Onion skin lets you work on up to 3 "cells" (I believe it's 3..could be 4 or 5 though) at a time and you can see the previous drawings as well for easily working with your animations. This is *very* much like traditional animation methods. The Pencil test portion is basically black and white outlines that animate in real time so you can easily see the speed of your animation and do quick changes. I strongly suggest using Disney for your tests. > Jim Lange > Oracle Corporation -- Bob The Graphics BBS 908/469-0049 "It's better than a sharp stick in the eye!" ============================================================================ InterNet: bobl@graphics.rent.com | Raven Enterprises UUCP: ...rutgers!bobsbox!graphics!bobl | 25 Raven Avenue BitNet: bobl%graphics.rent.com@pucc | Piscataway, NJ 08854 Home #: 908/560-7353 | 908/271-8878
Scott_Busse@mindlink.UUCP (Scott Busse) (04/08/91)
>> Brian Yamanaka writes: Flying erase heads are becoming a standard >> feature
on most decks (All 8mm VCRs have them)...
Brian, I'm curious about the flying erase head count. Is there a difference
between consumer flying erase setups and industrial setups. I somehow got the
impression that the former has one flying erase head and the latter uses two.
If there is a difference, what is the effective functional and visual
difference?
* Scott Busse email: O O O_ _ ___ .....
* CIS 73040,2114 ||| /|\ /\ O/\_ / O )=|
* a763@mindlink.UUCP l | | |\ / \ /\ _\
* uunet!van-bc!rsoft!mindlink!Scott_Busse Live Long and Animate... \kholland@hydra.unm.edu (Kiernan Holland) (04/09/91)
Hey has anyone had problems with thier ON/OFF switch on their 3000. I just recently got my 3000 and there were so many things the CBM engineers (hardware eng) overlooked. I had to open my system to solve the problem and found a cheap metal rod held up by a plastic holder (which fell off) in contact with a button on the power supply. How cheap. Not to mention my Multi-scan monitor did not work so I sent it back for repairs. I don't know how somebody that can put soooo much hype on a upgrade can make it soooo much worse than the A2000's. At least it was easier to get into the 3000 than I could with the 1000 (god the worse design in history). But don't get me wrong, the 3000 16mhz 68030 50 meg QAUNTUM is faster than the 386 based PS/2's with 80 meg HD's here at school. The Hard drive on the 3000 is sooooooooooo fast, I loaded my OS in 5 seconds. I'm going to have to dump my Work: partition to floppies before I can re-partition. Pagesetter II for some reason does not work, most of my games don't either. Remember, even though the third-party developers say that thier programs are 100% compatible with the 3000 notice that they don't mention Workbench 2.0 or 1.3 which both come with the 3000. One thing I really like about the 3000 is the Superkickstart, this is what the 2000 lacked and the 1000 didn't need. Now I don't have to upgrade the OS ROMS much anymore. You just upgrade Kickstart and WB, that's it. The virtual screens in OS2.0 can get as large as 16K by 16K, and with a depth of 16 shades. Later
yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp (Brian Yamanaka) (04/10/91)
In article <5409@mindlink.UUCP> Scott_Busse@mindlink.UUCP (Scott Busse) writes: |Brian, I'm curious about the flying erase head count. Is there a difference |between consumer flying erase setups and industrial setups. I somehow got the |impression that the former has one flying erase head and the latter uses two. |If there is a difference, what is the effective functional and visual |difference? It seems that only one flying erase head is really necessary. Two heads may permit the beginning of recording on an odd field. This is only useful if you want to do single field recording. For single frame recording, the frame is recorded starting with the even frame. |* Scott Busse email: O O O_ _ ___ ..... |* CIS 73040,2114 ||| /|\ /\ O/\_ / O )=| |* a763@mindlink.UUCP l | | |\ / \ /\ _\ |* uunet!van-bc!rsoft!mindlink!Scott_Busse Live Long and Animate... \ Best regards, Brian -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Brian YAMANAKA (aka The VISCA dude) |"I knew I should have made that Sony Corporation, Personal Video Group | left turn at Albuquerque." Email: yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp | -Bugs Bunny Phone: +81-3-5488-6160 | FAX: +81-3-5488-6469 |Hawaii,Illinois,Japan...what's next?
jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) (04/11/91)
In article <1991Apr09.040323.15069@ariel.unm.edu> kholland@hydra.unm.edu (Kiernan Holland) writes: >Hey has anyone had problems with thier ON/OFF switch on their 3000. >I just recently got my 3000 and there were so many things the CBM engineers >(hardware eng) overlooked. I had to open my system to solve the problem >and found a cheap metal rod held up by a plastic holder (which fell off) >in contact with a button on the power supply. How cheap. Not to mention That's how the PS/2 does it, and I can't say I've ever heard of one of them breaking. >I really like about the 3000 is the Superkickstart, this is what the 2000 >lacked and the 1000 didn't need. Now I don't have to upgrade the OS ROMS >much anymore. You just upgrade Kickstart and WB, that's it. Huh? Isn't the 3000 going to get Kickstart in ROM when it's finalized? I sure hope so! Kickstart taking up 512K of my RAM? No way! -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | "You know I never knew Jim Shaffer, Jr. | amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms | that it could be so 37 Brook Street | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | strange..." Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (R.E.M.)
neil@celia.UUCP (Neil Richmond) (04/11/91)
In article <14124@darkstar.ucsc.edu> ignatz@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (60189000) writes: > >pencil test system. Here's the scoop -- I have an amiga 500 which Ive >been playing around with for computer animation. Im wondering--can anyone >tell me a way to connect a video digitizer to it, which could digitize >each drawing (from paper via video camera) and store it in the computer >in such a way that I can flip say 30 pages? I do not need color, or sharp >resolution (low res would be fine) because this is just pencil testing >and only the motion is important. Being that Im not the most knoweledgable >person when it comes to the Amiga Im asking that some of you Amiga >genuises help me out. You have several alternatives. I use Digiview to scan in animation drawings. Get the Panasonic 1410 camera to go with. I have a borrowed color Hitatchi camera and I don't get good scans. Get a copy stand with good lights. If you do this, you will get images that will require little cleanup. If you are doing tests only, use lo-res, because you will need all the memory you can get on your 500. Digiview has a function that will output in 16color black and white. If you get good scans you could go lower, but I have found that I get an antialiased line with the 16 color mode. Next, I use Dpaint III. I set up the number of frames I want in DPaint III and then read a scanned frame into each frame. Set the rate to what you want, 24 or 30 fps and bingo! Animation. I often cleanup and color my tests on the machine. The next thing I want to do, is see how I can use these animations with DCTV. I think you could turn them into high quality animations in DCTV Paint and turn them into 24 bit animations. The nice thing about DCTV is it resides outside the Amiga and uses the memory of the Amiga for program, I think. I have heard that it is sluggish on stock Amigas, excluding the A3000. But mostly, I want to use it to enhance the quality of my animations before I shoot them to film. Good luck. neil -- Only 3188 shopping days left till the next millenium! Neil F. Richmond INTERNET: celia!neil@usc.edu Rhythm & Hues Inc. UUCP: ...{ames,hplabs}!lll-tis!celia!neil)
grieggs@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov (John T. Grieggs) (04/13/91)
In article <YAMANAKA.91Apr5172239@probe.cv.sony.co.jp> yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp (Brian Yamanaka) writes: >Of greater concern is that to achieve a clean edit, the deck should do some sort of pre-roll. Pre-roll simply put means that a VCR remembers where it wants to insert, backs up the tape, plays until the insert point, and begins recording at the insert point. This requires two very important elements: time-code and flying erase heads. >Flying erase heads are becoming a standard feature on most decks (all 8mm VCRs have them), but time-code is currently not available in any VCR. This will change in the future (look for them RSN). Ok, I just bought myself a JVC HR-D960U. This is a very nice (my opinion) deck with jog/shuttle, flying erase heads, some sort of time stuff (we are bouncing off the outer limits of my comprehension here), and edit pre-roll. It has the most beautiful and solid freeze frame I have seen to date, and the jog and shuttle controls make it very easy to home in on an exact frame. Now: How do I use this to do single frame recording? Do I need something called an edit controller? I have been staring at the instructions for setting an insert point and starting a dub there using a second deck and the REMOTE PAUSE terminal, but I don't really understand what that means. I would like to be able to position the tape to a frame, poise my Amiga to output a composite signal containing an ANIM (via DCTV), and through some magic have that signal begin recording at that point. This seems feasible, but is it really? I realize it means triggering an edit pre-roll - the triggering and synchronization of that with the Amiga is what throws me. My gut feeling is that what I want to do is achievable, but whether is it easy or requires some extra hardware or horrible kludge, I don't know. Help? -- John T. Grieggs (Telos @ Jet Propulsion Laboratory) 4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, Ca. 91109 M/S 301-320T (818) 354-0871 Uucp: {cit-vax,elroy,chas2}!jpl-devvax!grieggs Arpa: ...jpl-devvax!grieggs@cit-vax.ARPA
Scott_Busse@mindlink.UUCP (Scott Busse) (04/14/91)
>> John T. Grieggs writes: >> "My gut feeling is that what I want to do is achievable, but whether >> is it easy or requires some extra hardware or horrible kludge, I >> don't know." Unfortunately, I have found it to be quite tedious to do frame accurate recording on a deck without a pre-roll function, and absolute frame accurate editing capabilities. At one time I experimented with the Sony super-beta model ??-1000, which was pretty hot for a comsumer deck, but left me doing everything manually. I went about recording a couple minutes of the info channel on cable TV to get a second:tenth/second count on the tape, and then measured how many frames the deck pre-rolled when I went from playback/jog/pause to record mode. It turned out to be 9 frames, 8 time out of ten. From there I manually tried assembling a single frame animation. It worked, but 2 times out of ten (on average) I had to redo a frame. On top of that, if there isn't a great deal of difference between the two adjacent images, it gets hard to tell just where the next edit point is. Tough job. I don't recommend it :) What you may want to look into is something like the Future video controllers, which I have heard are compatible with many consumer decks. I don't have any solid info on that though, sorry. * Scott Busse email: O O O_ _ ___ ..... * CIS 73040,2114 ||| /|\ /\ O/\_ / O )=| * a763@mindlink.UUCP l | | |\ / \ /\ _\ * uunet!van-bc!rsoft!mindlink!Scott_Busse Live Long and Animate... \
yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp (Brian Yamanaka) (04/15/91)
In article <1991Apr12.185158.6640@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov> grieggs@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov (John T. Grieggs) writes: |Ok, I just bought myself a JVC HR-D960U. This is a very nice (my opinion) |deck with jog/shuttle, flying erase heads, some sort of time stuff (we are |bouncing off the outer limits of my comprehension here), and edit pre-roll. |It has the most beautiful and solid freeze frame I have seen to date, and |the jog and shuttle controls make it very easy to home in on an exact frame. | |Now: | |How do I use this to do single frame recording? Do I need something called |an edit controller? I have been staring at the instructions for setting |an insert point and starting a dub there using a second deck and the REMOTE |PAUSE terminal, but I don't really understand what that means. | |I would like to be able to position the tape to a frame, poise my Amiga to |output a composite signal containing an ANIM (via DCTV), and through some |magic have that signal begin recording at that point. This seems feasible, |but is it really? I realize it means triggering an edit pre-roll - the |triggering and synchronization of that with the Amiga is what throws me. Being a person from Sony I cannot comment on the JVC product directly. Most likely this is a consumer grade deck without any sort of serial interface. Without this it is rather difficult to achieve perfect results. The edit pre-roll feature probably means that the deck will automatically backspace a specified amount, begin playing, and send a release-Pause command to another deck at the specified point. This is not what you need. To do seamless edits you need a deck which can start recording on a specified point. Most consumer decks are incapable of this. Of course if you just want to dump an already made ANIM to tape all you need to do is manually find the insert point. Set record-pause and have the Amiga send a release record to the deck. Just how you do this is beyond my knowledge. My guess is that the JVC wants some sort of TTL signal at the remote port and could easily be done witha line on the parallel and serial port. So if you had such a cable, AREXX, and an AREXX compatible ANIM player all this is possible. To get the best results you would have to time the release time on the VCR's remote pause terminal. None of this sounds elegant, but it is doable. Of course if you had a Sony VCR with LANC (all 8mm and some VHS) and the Sony Vbox, this would be made a lot easier. The Vbox is a serially driven interface to conect Sony LANC (and Control-S) products to a computer. If you need info on this product contact Sony CPP in San Jose. Of course now I'm turning this into a commercial and should stop here. Sorry I couldn't be of more help, but you should contact JVC about a better solution. |John T. Grieggs (Telos @ Jet Propulsion Laboratory) |4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, Ca. 91109 M/S 301-320T (818) 354-0871 |Uucp: {cit-vax,elroy,chas2}!jpl-devvax!grieggs |Arpa: ...jpl-devvax!grieggs@cit-vax.ARPA Best regards, Brian -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Brian YAMANAKA (aka The VISCA dude) |"I knew I should have made that Sony Corporation, Personal Video Group | left turn at Albuquerque." Email: yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp | -Bugs Bunny Phone: +81-3-5488-6160 | FAX: +81-3-5488-6469 |Hawaii,Illinois,Japan...what's next?
jlange@oracle.com (Jim Lange) (04/16/91)
In article <1991Apr12.185158.6640@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov> grieggs@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov (John T. Grieggs) writes:
Ok, I just bought myself a JVC HR-D960U. This is a very nice (my opinion)
deck with jog/shuttle, flying erase heads, some sort of time stuff (we are
bouncing off the outer limits of my comprehension here), and edit pre-roll.
How do I use this to do single frame recording? Do I need something called
an edit controller? I have been staring at the instructions for setting
an insert point and starting a dub there using a second deck and the REMOTE
PAUSE terminal, but I don't really understand what that means.
I would like to be able to position the tape to a frame, poise my Amiga to
output a composite signal containing an ANIM (via DCTV), and through some
magic have that signal begin recording at that point. This seems feasible,
but is it really? I realize it means triggering an edit pre-roll - the
triggering and synchronization of that with the Amiga is what throws me.
Depending on your patience threshhold, you can do it manually. Of all of the
consumer grade VCR's I have used, the JVC HR-D960U is the most accurate and
easiest to manually recue to begin a recording at a specific frame. My
parents purchased one that I used extensively over Christmas (teaching my
father how to edit videos). I found that using the jog-shuttle to position to
a specific frame and then switching to record mode, the new scene would begin
at the very next frame EVERY SINGLE TIME! Also, the jog shuttle works while
the deck is in record-pause mode (switching to play-pause/jog while the knob
is moving then back to record-pause when you stop) so you don't have to switch
between play and record to edit many short scenes together.
I successfully used it to do single frame recording one afternoon when I had
some time. The source was a camcorder aimed at a toy soldier on the ground
(my Amiga was not with me :( ). I started by recording several seconds of
nothing (the wall) to establish a control track, then rewound to the beginning
and placed the VCR in Video-Insert mode (press [Insert] or [V.Dub] button from
play-pause). This preserves the control track for smoother playback. The
procedure to single frame record is then:
1) Unpause VCR and record a few seconds of subject.
2) Pause VCR (but don't press Stop)
3) Jog backwards until scene changes.
4) Jog forwards so last desired frame of current pose is displayed.
[Deck will now revert to Record-Pause]
5) Adjust position of subject
6) Go to step 1
I actually recorded two frames per pose and made about twenty edits. The
playback was glitch-free, but the color varied (apparently due to loss of
"color-frame" integrity) and the fixed background jumped up-and-down slightly.
This latter artifact is no doubt due to the transport not being "industrial
grade". However, I did not have the edit switch enabled which, according to
the documentation, activates a five-second preroll function and the
syncro-edit feature (as well as disabling video enhancement circuits).
Assuming that the pre-roll feature still works when manually editing (normal
pre-roll is only about 1.5 seconds), the stability of the final animation may
be improved.
If you are stringing together multiple anims, and the end of one scene does not
need to mate perfectly with the end of the last (i.e. each is a scene change
or has a deliberate pause of inactivity), this manual method may suffice.
What you cannot do without additional hardware is force the VCR to begin its
recording with a specific frame of your animation. This normally requires
SIMPTE time code and sophisticated editing equipment.
It would be worth contacting JVC to try interfacing to the syncro-edit jack.
You may luck out and find you can get within a few frames (or better). You
could use a program like The Director or AmigaVision to send a signal to the
VCR (via Arexx and a custom program) then start the animation exactly 5
seconds later (or whatever the pre-roll frame count turns out to be). The
Director 2.0 allows for very precise timing control by frame as well as nice
anim playback capability. You would still have to recue the VCR manually,
however, between scenes.
Good luck, let us know what kind of results you get.
(NOTE: I'm cross-posting this to rec.video)
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Jim Lange jlange@us.oracle.com
Oracle Corporation {uunet|apple|hplabs}!oracle!jlange
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Jim Lange jlange@us.oracle.com
Oracle Corporation {uunet|apple|hplabs}!oracle!jlange
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------jollick@amiglynx.UUCP (Jim Ollick) (04/18/91)
Can you tell me if the Sony U-atic decks are single frame compatable? If so, what models? The 2650, 5850, 9850's? Thanks in advance.
rhand@well.sf.ca.us (Roger Hand) (04/23/91)
Keep in mind that you don't have to BUY all this expensive gear: I put together a 30 minute videotape composed entirely of Amiga animation, and I did it without even owning a VCR! Look in the Yellow Pages under "Video Producers" or something like that and start making calls. Or ask at your local Amiga store if they know of a video editing suite in your area that has an Amiga. The odds are that there will be one. rhand@well.sf.ca.us CIS: 73520,3506