seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (05/18/91)
JMan's RENDER module is what takes all your other work and
presents it in a finished form, be it a still or an animation.
You load up the CHOREOGRAPHY you just created in the DIRECTION
module by clicking on the bar running along the top of the screen
which calls up a file requester. After this is loaded, you're faced
with several options that will determine what the final outcome looks
like.
First off, let's talk about render quality. The default is
SCANLINE, which is faster than JMan's raytracing under most
circumstances. It has improved in quality from revision to revision,
and is now pretty smooth. However, you loose reflections and shadows
when rendering SCANLINE.
Raytracing is the next step. I'm sure all or most of you know
what raytracing involves. JMan uses the "distributed raytracing"
approach, which lets you selectively choose whether to render shadows
and/or use antialiasing. Both add more time to your renders, with
antialiasing quadrupling it because it shoots four rays per pixel in
this mode.
Your next choice will be the size of your image. To test out
your scene you'll probably want to use the MINI size. After you're
sure your lights and motion are correct you can choose a higher
resolution for the final rendering. Memory permitting, JMan will
accept almost any pixel resolution. You also have control over the
pixel aspect ratio, and if you just want to check a particular
portion of an image you can define a window within the scene to
render using the AREA gadgets.
In the bottom left side of the screen are the color sliders that
let you set your background color, and a global ambient value. The
OUTPUT gadgets let you generate a PREVIEW, which is an image
displayed but not saved, RGB, which saves the image as a standard
24bit ILBM, or ANIM. There is also a gadget that controls the HAZE
distance. You enter a value into this gadget, and the closer objects
are to that distance from the CAMERA, the more they start turning to
the color of the sky.
To the lower right, you can set the starting and ending frames
to render, which is useful for checking specific frames, or a range
of frames in an animation. Below this is the RENDER gadget, and the
EXIT gadget.
Although Hash has increased the render quality greatly over that
of the earlier versions it still has its problems. The greatest of
which is its instability when rendering 24bit imagery. It's also
fairly slow, but I don't know whether this is due to the rendering
engine needing some of its code bummed, or because of the increased
complexity of the cubic patches over polygons...or both. And I've
noticed several instances where parts of reflections and shadows go
invisible across a couple of frames and then reappear.
CONCLUSION:
There isn't another package like JMan. It has an interface
that's a delight to use as well as look at. Some aspects of its
interface have yet to be mentioned in any of the magazine reviews.
All module screens "fade in" when they're run, and "fade out" when
you exit. The file requesters are nice, and have the same
three-dimensional look as the rest of the interface, and do their own
fade in and fade out. And speaking of file requesters, Hash has
added the capability of creating directories on the fly! This is
something I hope Commodore will add to the next version of the
standard AmigaDOS file requester.
All of the screens are well laid out. And through an
intelligent choice of screen colors, flicker is kept to a minimum.
And the interface is fairly consistent from module to module.
For character animation, no other package gives you the control
over motion that JMan offers. And no other package gives you the
smooth, organic shapes that splines and cubic patch rendering
affords. And even for mechanical motion, the CHANNELs in JMan give
it a decided advantage over other renderers.
But JMan isn't without its faults. Hash needs to work on its
stability, render quality, and render speed. It also needs to swat a
couple rather annoying bugs, particularly those having to do with
DECALing and modifying the TEXTURES. All of the features that are
being planned, and are being implemented are terrific, and are
welcome. But I'd prefer that Hash focused their energies at this
time on fixing what they have now.
If you want to be on the cutting edge of Amiga 3D software, JMan
is there. Even with its faults I'd recommend considering it. Its an
investment in a growing and ever expanding project.
Hash is dedicated to this, and their other products. I've
spoken with different members of the staff, including Martin Hash
himself. They're always eager to be of assistance, and are always
open to input from their products' owners. Ken Baer is active on the
Internet and on PLink, and has always been eager to answer my
questions and give me advice when I got stuck.
Sean
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .SIG v2.5 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc RealWorld: Sean Cunningham
ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil Voice: (512) 992-2810
INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com ____________________________________
// | * All opinions expressed herein |
HELP KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ | Copyright 1991 VISION GRAPHICS |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<jason@cbmami.UUCP (Jason Goldberg) (05/20/91)
One thing that really scares me about Jman is Hash's total refusal to sell his product via dealers! I work for an upscale dealer in Southern California which specializes in Video/Animation. Our staff is well versed in Lightwave, Imagine, and 3D-Pro, as well as many of the older packages. We demo the products on proffesional systems (A3000's, 33 Mhz and 50 Mhz A2000's, etc..), all are systems are networked we can even do renderings in 3D-Pro in its paralell processing mode! Finnal output can be viewed in 24-bit via Firecracker, Toaster, DCTV, etc... Obviously Jman's use of spines makes it a very interesting product to us, but they won't sell it to us! We called up to order two units and we were informed that they will not sell to dealers, they offer better pricing to end users at shows than they offered us. Further they told us that their users were to upscale to purchase from dealers. It seems to me that Martin is doing a diservice to his product and his end-users (both current and future). Would you rather purchase a $500 package after getting a hands on demo from someone who really knows the products and is farmiliar with its strengths and weaknesess relative to the other products available? Perhaps they don't want their ray-tracing engine compared side-by-side to Imagines... If they insist on only selling direct then they will have a much smaller user base, that means that bug reports will take longer to get back to them, that means there are fewer people for owners to share ideas/help/objects with, etc... From what I have seen of Jman it is a product with a lot of promise, I am probably posting this letter primarily because I am disappointed that I won't be able to get my hands on it in the near future. However, I truely believe that refusing to sell to dealers hurts Jman product development as well as its potential sales! If you are a Hash customer, you should let them know how you feel about this policy. -Jason- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jason Goldberg UUCP: ucsd!serene!cbmami!jason Del Mar, CA
waynekn@techbook.com (Wayne Knapp) (05/23/91)
In comp.sys.amiga.graphics you write: > One thing that really scares me about Jman is Hash's total refusal >to sell his product via dealers! I work for an upscale dealer in Southern >California which specializes in Video/Animation. Our staff is well versed >in Lightwave, Imagine, and 3D-Pro, as well as many of the older packages. >We demo the products on proffesional systems (A3000's, 33 Mhz and 50 Mhz >A2000's, etc..), all are systems are networked we can even do renderings in >3D-Pro in its paralell processing mode! Finnal output can be viewed in >24-bit via Firecracker, Toaster, DCTV, etc... There are many reasons for this: * Most dealers want a 40% - 60% price discount. Distributors often require a 60% discount, then mark up the price 10% and sell to dealers. Hence, the street price of Jman would be pushed up to at least $1000 if we went through the normal channels. However, if you were to talk to Martin, you could work out some kind of deal. I'm sure you could buy the program for $500. The problem is that you don't want to pay $500 for the program. That is the price. We don't give direct customers a different deal than dealers. If you can sell Jman for $1000 that would be fine with us, however, our price is $500. * We use personalized copy protection. This is the least offensive type of copy protection. It also allows us to know who has what code. Hence we can update people. * Jman is a well supported product, we do that by talking directly with our customers. Also since all sales are currently direct, we get our customers the best possible version of Jman. There are no time lags in the system, except if they exist at our end. * By selling direct, we can sell for much less to the end user and we don't have a lot of the ups and downs of dealing indirectly. Sales do come slower, but we never get returns. We are in this business for the long term. We are more interested in building the best animation tools and using them to do animation than making fast bucks. * We are putting all of our resouces into: - Improving the product - Support our customers * Jman is a complete system. Over time is will grow into even a better program. We want to be the best animation system. If as some time that means only selling direct at $5000, then that is what will happen. However, the current price of Jman 1.3 is $500 direct. (This is for new customers, updates and upgrades are much cheaper.) > It seems to me that Martin is doing a diservice to his product and >his end-users (both current and future). Would you rather purchase a $500 >package after getting a hands on demo from someone who really knows the >products and is farmiliar with its strengths and weaknesess relative to the >other products available? In fact unless someone has 1000's of hours to invest, he won't be able to do a good of comparing products. That is why we talk directly with customers. We know our strengths, and are more aware of our weaknesess than anyone else. Plus, we are the only people that really know what is current in the code. Again, Jman is product that is being worked on daily. There have been over 3 major revisions alone this year, and several more minor revisions. We are using our own tools to do real animation. As we do the the tools get better. > Perhaps they don't want their ray-tracing engine >compared side-by-side to Imagines... If they insist on only selling direct >then they will have a much smaller user base, that means that bug reports >will take longer to get back to them, that means there are fewer people for >owners to share ideas/help/objects with, etc... Right, we don't want frames compared, we want our animation compared to other animation. In fact our ray-tracing is getting better all the time. In fact very good in 1.3. BUT, WE ARE NOT A RAY-TRACING COMPANY, WE ARE AN ANIMATION COMPANY. If you want to ray-trace a ball or two and compare them, our product is not being used for what it was designed to do. Compare a couple minutes of animation. That is where Jman shines. > If you are a Hash customer, you should let them know how you feel >about this policy. Please do! In fact talk to Martin Hash himself if you like, hope you buy Jman too! Call ... (206) 573-9427 However, please don't be mad at us because we sell the product for the same price to everyone! Wayne Knapp -- waynekn@techbook.COM ...!{tektronix!nosun,uunet}techbook!waynekn Public Access UNIX at (503) 644-8135 (1200/2400) Voice: +1 503 646-8257 Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
billc@cryo.UUCP (William J. Coldwell) (05/23/91)
In article <192b5f2f.ARN0fef@cbmami.UUCP> jason@cbmami.UUCP (Jason Goldberg) writes: > > One thing that really scares me about Jman is Hash's total refusal >to sell his product via dealers! They aren't the first to take this approach though.. >I work for an upscale dealer in Southern >California which specializes in Video/Animation. Our staff is well versed >in Lightwave, Imagine, and 3D-Pro, as well as many of the older packages. >We demo the products on proffesional systems (A3000's, 33 Mhz and 50 Mhz >A2000's, etc..), all are systems are networked we can even do renderings in >3D-Pro in its paralell processing mode! Finnal output can be viewed in >24-bit via Firecracker, Toaster, DCTV, etc... Put a few 040's on a network and watch polygons plop on whatever display device you have (that is supported). ;-) > Obviously Jman's use of spines makes it a very interesting product >to us, but they won't sell it to us! We called up to order two units and >we were informed that they will not sell to dealers, they offer better >pricing to end users at shows than they offered us. Further they told us >that their users were to upscale to purchase from dealers. Generally, this is a good cover for "we can make a better mark up selling directly to end users than we can selling to distributors and dealers". Remember, I said "generally". Sometimes this method is used when the marketroids feel that the product doesn't compete on a 1:? level with other new/established products. Sometimes it's used to give the "aura" of being more that it is. Sometimes.. ;-) > It seems to me that Martin is doing a diservice to his product and >his end-users (both current and future). Would you rather purchase a $500 >package after getting a hands on demo from someone who really knows the >products and is farmiliar with its strengths and weaknesess relative to the >other products available? Good point. I'll reserve any comments on this subject. ;-) >Perhaps they don't want their ray-tracing engine >compared side-by-side to Imagines... Impulse has been in the ray tracing game longer than Hash, and that makes a difference. Martin (IMHO) appears to be heading down the road of "let's make the Amiga into some high-end animation workstation". At least the features of his program tend to lead me to that conclusion. The only problem with this approach is that you tend to leave the mid-level renderer/animators out of the picture due to price and machine requirements. >If they insist on only selling direct >then they will have a much smaller user base, that means that bug reports >will take longer to get back to them, that means there are fewer people for >owners to share ideas/help/objects with, etc... I would tend to think the opposite.. If you find a bug, wouldn't you just pick up the phone and yell at him personally? ;-) > From what I have seen of Jman it is a product with a lot of >promise, I am probably posting this letter primarily because I am >disappointed that I won't be able to get my hands on it in the near future. If you pay, you play. >However, I truely believe that refusing to sell to dealers hurts Jman >product development as well as its potential sales! I don't agree. If this was the case, then they wouldn't still be around. They have been chuggin' along this far, and I suspect that they will still be around next year still chuggin'.... > If you are a Hash customer, you should let them know how you feel >about this policy. Why? They already have it. >Jason Goldberg UUCP: ucsd!serene!cbmami!jason -- William J. Coldwell PLink: CRYO I'm a 3-DPro, wouldn't you Amiga Attitude Adjuster BIX: wjcoldwell like to be a 3-DPro2 ? Cryogenic Software UUCP:billc@cryo 3-D PROFESSIONAL 2.0 #define STD_DSCLMR "The above opinions are mine. You can't have them."
waynekn@techbook.com (Wayne Knapp) (05/24/91)
billc@cryo.UUCP (William J. Coldwell) writes: >In article <192b5f2f.ARN0fef@cbmami.UUCP> jason@cbmami.UUCP (Jason Goldberg) writes: >> >> Obviously Jman's use of spines makes it a very interesting product >>to us, but they won't sell it to us! We called up to order two units and >>we were informed that they will not sell to dealers, they offer better >>pricing to end users at shows than they offered us. Further they told us >>that their users were to upscale to purchase from dealers. >Generally, this is a good cover for "we can make a better mark up selling >directly to end users than we can selling to distributors and dealers". >Remember, I said "generally". Sometimes this method is used when the >marketroids feel that the product doesn't compete on a 1:? level with >other new/established products. Sometimes it's used to give the "aura" >of being more that it is. Sometimes.. ;-) That is pure bull. Clearly you haven't experience in buying or selling high- end software. Many of the best packages available are not sold via dealers. Besides, going though dealers increases the cost of the product. The only reason why we can affort to support a program like Animation:Jounery is that we have very, very low overhead. This is done by: 1. Keeping advertising/promotions to a minimum. 2. Selling directly as possible. $500 is very cheap for a program (really a complete set of programs) like Animation:Jounreyman. AutoDesk's simalar system sell for $2995. Is that the kind of pricing you want? Again the beef is not the price, the beef is that Jason is upset because we sell the program for the same price to everyone. There is nothing to stop dealers from buying Jouneryman for $500 and selling for whatever price they can! What Jason wants is for us to sell him Jouneryman for say $250 and then he could sell it for say $400. At that rate, our sales would have to increase by ten times before we would make any money. Why should we give away our modest profit? Almost all of our money goes back into the product. The only change we have made in pricing is NO DISCOUNTS to dealers. People are welcome to resale the program, but they are going to lose money if they sell it less for less than we do. The facts are, that direct sells have always accounted for a very large part of our sales. In fact we seldom made money on software sales to distributors/ dealers. This is even worse now that so many of the Amiga distributors have gone belly up! Second it is very hard to get distributors and dealers to pay. They often delay paying and then later just return "used" software. I hate to think of how many months by royality checks were extremely hurt by these returns. So we just cut that bad end of the business. Now we sell to everyone for the same price. >> It seems to me that Martin is doing a diservice to his product and >>his end-users (both current and future). Would you rather purchase a $500 >>package after getting a hands on demo from someone who really knows the >>products and is farmiliar with its strengths and weaknesess relative to the >>other products available? >Good point. I'll reserve any comments on this subject. ;-) We are not doing any diservice to anyone. People who want Jman buy it. We are not out to rip people off. In fact, it is very hard to buy Jman on impluse. Most people think about spending $500 if they have to make a phone call to do it. (Well maybe we are doing a diservice to dealers, since they can no longer sell the program to end-users for less than we do. Then again why should allow dealers to make more money than we do on sales that they are under-cutting us on?) >>Perhaps they don't want their ray-tracing engine >>compared side-by-side to Imagines... >Impulse has been in the ray tracing game longer than Hash, and that makes >a difference. Martin (IMHO) appears to be heading down the road of "let's >make the Amiga into some high-end animation workstation". At least the >features of his program tend to lead me to that conclusion. The only >problem with this approach is that you tend to leave the mid-level >renderer/animators out of the picture due to price and machine requirements. No. We are doing animation period. There is no high-end animation work- station kind of thing going on around here. So many people are hung up on ray-tracing. But the render is only 1/7 of our Animation:Journeyman. (And it is really improved in the new 1.3 version.) There are a lot of things we do that you would spend years trying to do on a pure ray-tracer package. However, rather than go that direction, let me say again that we are not a ray-tracing company but instead our focus is computer animation. Wayne Knapp Consulting Assoc. Hash Enterprises -- waynekn@techbook.COM ...!{tektronix!nosun,uunet}techbook!waynekn Public Access UNIX at (503) 644-8135 (1200/2400) Voice: +1 503 646-8257 Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli +1 201 408 5389) (05/25/91)
In article <1991May24.005621.3479@techbook.com> waynekn@techbook.com (Wayne Knapp) writes: > $500 is very cheap for a program (really a complete set of programs) like > Animation:Jounreyman. AutoDesk's simalar system sell for $2995. Is that > the kind of pricing you want? Why don't you start hyping a product code named, "AutoDesk Killer"; wait a couple months, and then release a stripped down "Animation: Journeyman" for about $2499? It would make Jason much happier. Tom -- Tom Limoncelli tlimonce@drew.edu tlimonce@drew.bitnet 201-408-5389 Three witches making a potion. One asks, "A Liza Minnelli record, light beer, poppers, Frye boots; what's this spell for anyway?"
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (05/26/91)
In-Reply-To: message from waynekn@techbook.com As a registered JMan owner, I'd like to throw my two cents into this. Having to buy JMan directly from Hash was no problem. I had no reservations about it at all. The $500 pricetag wasn't too bad considering that's about how much someone would spend on something like Sculpt/Animate 4D or 3D Professional...I've used both, and wouldn't own either. Even though Hash doesn't advertise, finding out about JMan wasn't difficult. The magazine's dropped hints every-now-and-again, and I was able to get the transcript to a PLink conference on 24bit hardware and software. In other words, the information is out there. I more than understand the problems with dealers and distributors, since I worked at a local Ami shop for more than a year. And Hash also made it easy. They're happy to talk to you on the phone, unlike what I and a client of mine have experienced on the phone from the staff of another rendering package, which I won't name at this time. They're more than happy to talk with you about the product ($500 isn't to be taken lightly). And when you have problems, they do their best to resolve them. More than likely, the dealers are ticked because people are buzzing about the product, but they know they aren't going to make didly on it, which is typical. Sean >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .SIG v2.5 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< UUCP: ...!crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc RealWorld: Sean Cunningham ARPA: !crash!pnet01!pro-party!seanc@nosc.mil Voice: (512) 992-2810 INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com ____________________________________ // | * All opinions expressed herein | HELP KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ | Copyright 1991 VISION GRAPHICS | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<