Viet.Ho@bbs.acs.unc.edu (Viet Ho) (05/16/91)
Just saw Colorburst up close at the Los Angeles VideoExpo.
Very impressing, clean RGB images, a little flicker, but
what do you expect from interlaced???
Got to see the fades, wipes and high speed scrolling.
OK, imagine DigiPaint super-bitmap scrolling, except
instead of HAM, you have a nice clean 768x480 24 bit
image.
Looks like it's all set to go, complete with packaging,
just waiting for FCC approval. The box is about the size
of two thin California Access stacked together. Got to
look inside, a few VLSI costume chips and a row of ZIP
static ram (1.5MB).
I got the blurb sheet, but too tired to type in now...
Oh, one of the designers was there and said they are
working on the 1/60th sec frame grabber. It's gonna
be around $400 extra. Time to sell my DCTV :-(
-Viet
--
The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
internet: bbs.oit.unc.edu or 128.109.157.30dcoteles@bonnie.ics.uci.edu (David Domenick Cotelessa) (05/16/91)
In article <3774@beguine.UUCP> Viet.Ho@bbs.acs.unc.edu (Viet Ho) writes: >Just saw Colorburst up close at the Los Angeles VideoExpo. >Very impressing, clean RGB images, a little flicker, but >what do you expect from interlaced??? Well, if you have a flicker fixer... >Got to see the fades, wipes and high speed scrolling. >OK, imagine DigiPaint super-bitmap scrolling, except >instead of HAM, you have a nice clean 768x480 24 bit >image. Sounds nice.....Now how about seeing some animation on this baby. (I've heard that it can do some real-time animation in at least 4096 colors HI-RES.) >Looks like it's all set to go, complete with packaging, >just waiting for FCC approval. The box is about the size I and half the world has heard this one before... FCC seems to be a real pain in the ass when some good product comes around (HDTV will be here soon honest...no really, oh yeah and Digital Audio Tapes to replace CD's no prob...as SOON as FCC approves..) Don't hold your breath on this stuff. Until it gets approval, THEN we can make the hoopla about this fabulous product. >I got the blurb sheet, but too tired to type in now... I would love to see the blurb sheet:::PRONTO! >Oh, one of the designers was there and said they are >working on the 1/60th sec frame grabber. It's gonna >be around $400 extra. Time to sell my DCTV. $400 + $400 for frame-grabber and 24-bit card, plus getting Macro Paint for 24-bit paint program, and Imagine for 3-D graphics, plus a genlock and chroma-key and extra effects and what'dya got? A Toaster at twice the cost!!(But then again, with the set-up like the above statement, expansion beyond the Toaster would be a heck of a lot eaiser, since everything bought is a different component, instead of one jumbled product that leaves you at the mercy of the company that produced it.) Well, enough babble at 2:00 in the morn..... **A friendly word from*********************.-.******************************* .--. .-..-. .-..--..-.-, .--..--. / / a.k.a. Dave Cotelessa / O) / O|| D)/ O)| O| \'/ / __)| O| / / <dcoteles@bonnie.ics.uci.edu> / /|| / ||_// O)`--' // / (_ )`--' `-' `-' `'`-^--' `----' `' `.___.' () "GET WILD AND TOUGH!" --City Hunter *****************************************************************************
hrlaser@crash.cts.com (Harv Laser) (05/18/91)
What day did you go to the LA Video Expo? I was there from about 11am to about 3pm yesterday (Thursday 5/16) and walked to and from the "Commodore" (Century Computers) booth at least half a dozen times and every time the M.A.S.T. (at least I assume he was with them) rep was fiddling with one, and then another Colorburst trying to get it to properly work. He was hunched over the thing with a screwdriver and I did see, very briefly, a photographic looking landscape shot on the screen along with some cycling-color test pattern bars stuff but never the nice-sounding display you described. --- On a semi-related topic, NewTek's booth was easily the largest crowd magnet in the hall. They had people standing in front of their displays up to ten deep at times. The new (version 2.0 or something??) Toaster software they were demoing has some truly wonderful transition effects in it. I *think* I heard Kiki, the demonstrator say it would be a $100 software upgrade but I could be wrong so don't take that to the bank yet. She was doing amazing things with it like "ripping" the screen in half like a sheet of paper, swriling spiraling transitions, water-dripping wipes that filled the screen from the bottom as drops of images fell from the top, one rather useless but cute effect of falling silhouettes of sheep, and so on. NewTek also had a bunch of their $3995 all-in-one Toaster boxes there - by now I hope folks know that NewTek has NOT designed and mfd their own computer, but they are OEMming Amiga 2500s, and slapping their own nameplate on them. In fact I believe I'm correct in stating that the very pretty 8-page foldout brochure they were handing out does not mention the word "Amiga" in it anywhere, even once.
kholland@hydra.unm.edu (Kiernan Holland) (05/19/91)
In article <1991May18.140621.13296@crash.cts.com> hrlaser@crash.cts.com (Harv Laser) writes: >What day did you go to the LA Video Expo? I was there from about 11am to >about 3pm yesterday (Thursday 5/16) and walked to and from the "Commodore" >(Century Computers) booth at least half a dozen times and every time >the M.A.S.T. (at least I assume he was with them) rep was fiddling >with one, and then another Colorburst trying to get it to properly >work. He was hunched over the thing with a screwdriver and I did >see, very briefly, a photographic looking landscape shot on the screen >along with some cycling-color test pattern bars stuff but never the >nice-sounding display you described. > >--- >On a semi-related topic, NewTek's booth was easily the largest >crowd magnet in the hall. They had people standing in front of their >displays up to ten deep at times. The new (version 2.0 or something??) >Toaster software they were demoing has some truly wonderful >transition effects in it. I *think* I heard Kiki, the demonstrator >say it would be a $100 software upgrade but I could be wrong so don't >take that to the bank yet. She was doing amazing things with it >like "ripping" the screen in half like a sheet of paper, swriling >spiraling transitions, water-dripping wipes that filled the screen >from the bottom as drops of images fell from the top, one rather >useless but cute effect of falling silhouettes of sheep, and so on. > >NewTek also had a bunch of their $3995 all-in-one Toaster boxes there - >by now I hope folks know that NewTek has NOT designed and mfd their >own computer, but they are OEMming Amiga 2500s, and slapping their own >nameplate on them. In fact I believe I'm correct in stating that the >very pretty 8-page foldout brochure they were handing out does not >mention the word "Amiga" in it anywhere, even once. I read Videographer the other day at the library. VO just recently covered everything there is to know about doing Video on Amiga's. Camcorder BTW has been very very very enthusiastic about Amiga's with Toaster's. I think NEW-TEK is trying to steal CBM's show. While CBM is churning out NEW-TEK brochures like menus to there customers, NEW-TEK has been claiming the market is their's. I would believe they are soooo anxious to turn the CBM market in thier direction. Anyways, I read in VO that the two top honchos at New-Tek are MAC-Enthusiasts. The only reason they picked the Amiga's was becuase they had a blitter and a low-price. Soooooo if MAC offered them a better deal, say good-bye to the toaster. Also they said that they hold all the shares becuase they have been slowly building the toaster rather than ganging up with somebody like Sony. You know these guys are getting rich. Probably better with an Amiga for now. Lets hope a real Amiga-Enthusiast company beats them up. How about a Toaster emulator. We really need some competition. That's what keeps the market running. Later
nwickham@triton.unm.edu (Neal C. Wickham) (05/21/91)
In article <1991May19.073718.16666@ariel.unm.edu> kholland@hydra.unm.edu (Kiernan Holland) writes: >I think NEW-TEK is trying to steal CBM's show. >While CBM is churning out NEW-TEK brochures like >menus to there customers, NEW-TEK has been claiming the >market is their's. I would believe they are soooo anxious >to turn the CBM market in thier direction. You know, I'm wondering... C= may not be interested in having the Amiga strongly identified with the video toaster and may be in favor of co- marketing the 2500 under the Toster name. Its looking like NeXT is going to go under and C= may want the name Amiga identified with a high end computer since they are certainly after that market with the 3000UX. It seems like C= is certainly in a posistion to force their will on NewTek more than vice versa. I 'think' that you'd have a very hard time getting the toaster to work with another platform ...especially a Mac. I know that for example, C= has rules that CDTV is never to be called a computer and it is never to be displayed in the same room with an Amiga. And I seriously doubt that this is to protect CDTV from the Amiga name. They are probably trying to protect the Amiga name from CDTV ...for a couple of reasons. To keep the name Amiga associated with a 'powerful' computer as already mentioned; and also to protect Amiga in case of a CDTV failure. And who knows what C= has up their sleeve. But even I wouldn't want to see the Amiga marketed as the Amiga/Toaster video thing. C= may well have forced NewTek to not use the Amiga name in a video specific ad. There is probably going to be two markets here. One is a rather prfessional video market and the other will be the PC/video market. There may be some less expensive alternatives to the Toaster on line. Don't you need some other equipment with the Toaster ...? In any case, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that NewTek wants to dump Amiga. I would say C= had a much better chance at developing and marketing an alternative to the Toaster than NewTek had at developing and marketing an alternative to an Amiga. NCW
brett@visix.com (Brett Bourbin) (05/21/91)
In article <1991May20.220317.10500@ariel.unm.edu>, nwickham@triton.unm.edu (Neal C. Wickham) writes: |> |> Its looking like NeXT is going to go under and C= may want the name Amiga |> identified with a high end computer since they are certainly after that |> market with the 3000UX. |> ... |> I know that for example, C= has rules that CDTV is never to be called a |> computer and it is never to be displayed in the same room with an Amiga. In the words of Col. Sherman T. Potter, "Popy-cock!" First, NeXT is not going under. If you keep current in the UNIX arena, you would know that they are doing quite well right now. Second, I have seen CDTV and Amigas sitting side-by-side. So much for these "facts". -- __ Brett Bourbin \ / /(_ /\/ 11440 Commerce Park Drive ..!uunet!visix!brett \/ / __)/ /\ Reston, Virginia 22091 brett@visix.com Software Inc (703) 758-2733
martin@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Daniel Martin) (05/22/91)
In article <1991May20.220317.10500@ariel.unm.edu> nwickham@triton.unm.edu (Neal C. Wickham) writes: > ... >Its looking like NeXT is going to go under and C= may want the name Amiga >identified with a high end computer since they are certainly after that >market with the 3000UX. a) Looking like NeXT is going under? On what fact do you base this judgement? b) For the 3000UX, Commodore is in the workstation and upgraded personnal Unix computer markets (home). Not quite the NeXT market (higher education). If Commodore market the 3000UX as a home Unix Workstation, they can survive. If they develop a multimedia Unix workstation, (with a Unix Video Toaster for instance) they certainly have a lead. If they compete against Sun, they have problems... >It seems like C= is certainly in a posistion >to force their will on NewTek more than vice versa. I 'think' that you'd >have a very hard time getting the toaster to work with another platform >...especially a Mac. It's working right now. You just plug the "Toaster Computer" to your Mac serial port. In two years you'll read in Mac World: Apple invented multimedia, and created the Toaster :-). > NCW -- // Daniel Martin Universite de Montreal \\ // MediaLab, ca vous regarde! C.P. 6128, Succursale A, \\ \\// Mail: martin@IRO.UMontreal.CA Montreal (Quebec), CANADA, \\// \/ Tel.: (514) 343-6111 poste 3494 H3C 3J7 \/
brianm@sco.COM (Brian Moffet) (05/22/91)
dcoteles@bonnie.ics.uci.edu (David Domenick Cotelessa) writes: >In article <3774@beguine.UUCP> Viet.Ho@bbs.acs.unc.edu (Viet Ho) writes: >>I got the blurb sheet, but too tired to type in now... >I would love to see the blurb sheet:::PRONTO! I am interested as well. How does it work? What does it plug into? What are its stats? brian moffet -- O Fortuna - velut luna - statu variabilis - semper crescis - aut decrescis vita detestabilis - nunc obdurat - et tunc curat - ludo mentis aciem egestatem - potestatem - dissolvit ut glaciem brianm@sco.com Speaking for Myself
nwickham@triton.unm.edu (Neal C. Wickham) (05/22/91)
In article <1991May21.151823.13069@visix.com> brett@visix.com writes: > >In the words of Col. Sherman T. Potter, "Popy-cock!" > >First, NeXT is not going under. If you keep current in the UNIX arena, you >would know that they are doing quite well right now. Second, I have seen >CDTV and Amigas sitting side-by-side. > >So much for these "facts". > In the April, 29 issure of Forbes, it says that NeXT sales are doing terrible, that the plant in Fremont Calif. is only running at 1/10 of capacity, that nearly all sales have been at a steep educational discount, and that Jobs will run out of cash in less than a year. ...sorry. I read that CDTV and the Amiga were not to be displayed in the same room. This second "fact" is the most questionable but the point is that in marketing, there are all sorts of things going on which could easily be misinterpreted. C= may just have changed the policy. If you want to flame, we should take this to .advocacy. And I say that people who like NeXT and people who buy NeXT are just plain fucking stupid! NCW
nwickham@triton.unm.edu (Neal C. Wickham) (05/25/91)
In article writes: > > a) Looking like NeXT is going under? On what fact do you base this > judgement? I posted "why" in another post. But NeXT is "bad"... it really really is. > > b) For the 3000UX, Commodore is in the workstation and upgraded personnal > Unix computer markets (home). Not quite the NeXT market (higher > education). I am sure that I read somewhere that sounded official that C= was after the higher education market. Amiga has several advantages I can think of over Sun. ...the AmigaOS and all its software, ...Mac emulation, and IBM emulation. The CE department where I go to school is taking a serious look a at Amiga. Some want Macs, some want IBMs, some want workstations ...why not just get it all in an Amgia 3000UX? > > It's working right now. You just plug the "Toaster Computer" to your >Mac serial port. In two years you'll read in Mac World: Apple invented >multimedia, and created the Toaster :-). > Its working but is dependent on an Amiga mother board and OS which sort of spoon feeds little baby Macintoy. Further discussion should be taken to .advocacy And why don't we let the future take care of itself! NCW
ACPS1072@RYERSON <ACPS1072@Ryerson.CA> (05/25/91)
> I am sure that I read somewhere that sounded official that C= was after the > higher education market. Amiga has several advantages I can think of over > Sun. ...the AmigaOS and all its software, ...Mac emulation, and IBM > emulation. The CE department where I go to school is taking a serious look a > at Amiga. Some want Macs, some want IBMs, some want workstations ...why not > just get it all in an Amgia 3000UX? I would like to point out that the SUN has IBM emulation capability (including drives). The SUNs also house a RISC chip, compared to the CISC processor (680x0) in the Amiga. More importantly (for me anyways) you can buy Alias Animator for it, a program capable of doing spline modelling (pretty gosh darn quick too). Derek Lang<<<<< | ACPS1072@Ryerson | "Get this clown trained. I want him in the games Toronto, ON | until he dies playing. Acknowledge." Canada | - Master Control Program
johnh@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (John J Humpal) (05/25/91)
In article <1991May24.233132.20643@ariel.unm.edu> nwickham@triton.unm.edu (Neal C. Wickham) writes: >In article writes: >> .... > lots of stuff about NeXT, 3000UX, Sun, etc. deleted > .... >> Can't this be moved to c.s.a.advocacy? Please? John J. Humpal -- johnh@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu -- short .sig, std. disclaimer
moonhawk@bluemoon.uucp (David Culberson) (05/25/91)
> It's working right now. You just plug the "Toaster Computer" to your > Mac serial port. In two years you'll read in Mac World: Apple invented > multimedia, and created the Toaster :-). It's an Amiga with an SCSI port! And it goes in the MAC SCSI port. They could not get the existing toaster to work in a MAC without a complete re-make, I'm sure. It's very Amiga-dependent, and I think the only way for them to get it to work on the MAC is to plug the mac into an AMiga!!! David Now the world has gone to bed, MoonHawk@Bluemoon.uucp ////|all Darkness won't engulf my head, moonhawk%bluemoon@nstar.rn.com //// |hail I can see by infrared, \\\\///__|the How I hate the night. Yeah, this IS an annoying SIG. \\\\/ |miga
moonhawk@bluemoon.uucp (David Culberson) (05/26/91)
ACPS1072@RYERSON <ACPS1072@Ryerson.CA> writes: > drives). The SUNs also house a RISC chip, compared to the CISC processor > (680x0) in the Amiga. I read that the 68040 is faster than the Sun's processor, and that a GVP 3050 board is faster than an '040, so a 3050 equipped Amiga is faster than a Sun. I didn't read this in AmigaWhirled. David Now the world has gone to bed, MoonHawk@Bluemoon.uucp ////|all Darkness won't engulf my head, moonhawk%bluemoon@nstar.rn.com //// |hail I can see by infrared, \\\\///__|the How I hate the night. Yeah, this IS an annoying SIG. \\\\/ |miga
uunix@triton.unm.edu (05/27/91)
In article <91145.032250ACPS1072@Ryerson.CA> ACPS1072@Ryerson.CA (ACPS1072@RYERSON) writes: > > >I would like to point out that the SUN has IBM emulation capability (including >drives). The SUNs also house a RISC chip, compared to the CISC processor >(680x0) in the Amiga. What kind of emulation? You can get XT eumlation on Amiga for $30. You can get AT emulation for $300, and I hear tell that C= is working on a 386 bboard which will display VGA graphics in a window under Intuition. I am sure all computers will be RISC before too long. Sun is good ...so I hear. But there are some advatages to an Amiga Unix system for some people. A multitasking native OS is one big one. I had a friend over last night who sells Mac and showed him a new PD floppy disk archiver I got and he said he just sold one about like it to one of his Mac customers for $100. > > More importantly (for me anyways) you can buy Alias Animator for it, a >program capable of doing spline modelling (pretty gosh darn quick too). > What kind of money are we talking about? Heck! I want one of them Silicon Graphics Workstations and the second I have a spare $20,000, I'm gonna get one. Then I can start working on buying some software for it. >Derek Lang<<<<< | >ACPS1072@Ryerson | "Get this clown trained. I want him in the games >Toronto, ON | until he dies playing. Acknowledge." >Canada | - Master Control Program NCW
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (05/28/91)
In article <1991May27.004518.21302@ariel.unm.edu> uunix@triton.unm.edu () writes: > >What kind of emulation? You can get XT eumlation on Amiga for $30. You can >get AT emulation for $300, and I hear tell that C= is working on a 386 bboard >which will display VGA graphics in a window under Intuition. > I hate to put this so bluntly, but without externally hardware, Intuition can't DO VGA graphics. Period. Try getting 256 simultaneous colors without using HAM, which cannot be used for the WB screen anyway. Now the world has gone to bed, Now I lay me down to sleep, Darkness won't engulf my head, Try to count electric sheep, I can see by infrared, Sweet dream wishes you can keep, How I hate the night. How I hate the night. -- Marvin
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (05/28/91)
In-Reply-To: message from moonhawk@bluemoon.uucp
If you check out the most recent Amazing, or Video Review, you'll see what
the "standalone" Toaster, or "Trojan Horse," really is.
It's an A2000 with a big Video Toaster sticker slapped over the Amiga
decal. It has a 52MB drive, and 5MB (I think).
Regardless of what the Macfolk wish to believe, they're buying an Amiga,
they're using an Amiga, it IS an Amiga. And the same effect can be
attained by plugging in any Amiga to a Mac...big deal.
Personally, I think New Tek is getting too kocky (trying to spell it so
that no one is offended :) From what I've heard, there is no mention of
the Amiga whatsoever in the literature on the "Trojan Horse," and it's
being billed as "Amiga compatible" by the press. On top of that, Tim
Jenison has supposedly said he is partial to Mac systems in on interview.
Add all this up, and it's reason enough for me to think twice about buying
one, even when they do get it up to snuff for the A3000. The only thing
right now that still makes me want one is Allen Hastings' renderer...
Sorry if this seems bitchy, but I don't have access to .advocacy :)
Sean
/\
RealWorld: Sean Cunningham / \ "Doing our business is what
INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com VISION Amigas are for."
Voice: (512) 992-2810 \ /
// \/ "Holy #@*!" - any Psygnosis
KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ GRAPHICS game playeruunix@triton.unm.edu (05/28/91)
In article <1991May27.221611.5425@crash.cts.com> seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) writes: > >Personally, I think New Tek is getting too kocky (trying to spell it so >that no one is offended :) From what I've heard, there is no mention of >the Amiga whatsoever in the literature on the "Trojan Horse," and it's >being billed as "Amiga compatible" by the press. On top of that, Tim >Jenison has supposedly said he is partial to Mac systems in on interview. > >Add all this up, and it's reason enough for me to think twice about buying >one, even when they do get it up to snuff for the A3000. The only thing >right now that still makes me want one is Allen Hastings' renderer... Yep, I was a little worried that Mac would sneak in and take the video market too. ...until I looked through several video magazines the other day. As far as the standalone Toaster and Macintoys go, I think it is a good idea. Both NewTek and C= is making money off the hard core Macintoy heads. Can you blame them? Macintoy heads have proven themselves to be easy to screw money out of. I just wish I could think up something to sell them. ...maybe some beautiful summerhome lots right next to the exciting Macintoy Land near Grants, New Mexico ...huh? A little radiation never hurt anyone. NCW
uunix@triton.unm.edu (05/28/91)
In article <1991May27.221214.19100@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: >> > I hate to put this so bluntly, but without externally >hardware, Intuition can't DO VGA graphics. Period. Try getting >256 simultaneous colors without using HAM, which cannot be used >for the WB screen anyway. > My post was messed up, I said a new 'board' with a 386 and VGA graphics. I have no idea if its true or not but I did read that ...on the net awhile back. I have know idea if it is true. Would it be possible to display VGA under intuition with a board? NCW
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (05/28/91)
In article <1991May28.062425.20507@ariel.unm.edu> uunix@triton.unm.edu writes: >In article <1991May27.221214.19100@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: >>> >> I hate to put this so bluntly, but without externally >>hardware, Intuition can't DO VGA graphics. Period. Try getting >>256 simultaneous colors without using HAM, which cannot be used >>for the WB screen anyway. >> > >My post was messed up, I said a new 'board' with a 386 and VGA graphics. I >have no idea if its true or not but I did read that ...on the net awhile >back. I have know idea if it is true. Would it be possible to display >VGA under intuition with a board? > > > NCW I see what you're saying (now 8), but it would seem like it would have to go in the video slot, and that would be a real waste, just to get VGA on the workbench screen. Seems like, if they are coming out with such a board, it also directly implies that they are coming out with a new chip set. 8-) I love fanning the flames. -- Ethan Now the world has gone to bed, Now I lay me down to sleep, Darkness won't engulf my head, Try to count electric sheep, I can see by infrared, Sweet dream wishes you can keep, How I hate the night. How I hate the night. -- Marvin
sschaem@starnet.uucp (Stephan Schaem) (05/29/91)
It would be possible if it was an hardware 'window'. The idea is not use the amiga video for the PC gfx but underlay it. Stephan.
mwm@pa.dec.com (Mike (My Watch Has Windows) Meyer) (05/29/91)
In article <ZRHk32w164w@bluemoon.uucp> moonhawk@bluemoon.uucp (David Culberson) writes: > drives). The SUNs also house a RISC chip, compared to the CISC processor > (680x0) in the Amiga. I read that the 68040 is faster than the Sun's processor, I've seen the '040 quoted at anywhere between 12 and 20 MIPS. The previous generation of Sun chips were quoted at 14 MIPS. The current generation is quoted at 25 MIPS(*). Ergo, the '040 isn't faster than Sun's processor, at least based on the numbers I've seen. and that a GVP 3050 board is faster than an '040 What clock speed '040? And running what application? And in the what system? There's no way a GVP 3050 will be faster than a (hypothetical) 50MHz '040 on a daughterboard on the 3050 card. It's unlikely that the 3050 is faster than a 25MHz or faster 040 in the same situation. On the other hand, the 3050 should blow the doors off an '040 card (any speed) in a 2000 CPU slot with no 32 bit memory. so a 3050 equipped Amiga is faster than a Sun. Well, it's certainly faster than the last one I used (a 3/50). Then again, so is my Amiga 3000. Of course, on the right applications, my Amiga 3000 is faster than the 3050. On the other hand, I'd be surprised if any of the above was faster than a SparcStation 2. I didn't read this in AmigaWhirled. I'll agree with that - while they may publish fluff, they usually get their fact straight. <mike (*) MIPS is, of course, the Meaningless Index of Processor Speed, and changes depending on marketing strategy. Don't buy anything based on the above numbers; test your application. -- Take a magic carpet to the olden days Mike Meyer To a mythical land where everybody lays mwm@pa.dec.com Around in the clouds in a happy daze decwrl!mwm In Kizmiaz ... Kizmiaz
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (05/29/91)
In-Reply-To: message from moonhawk@bluemoon.uucp
The Amiga World regurgitation of the GVP claim that their 50MHz '030 board
is faster than the '040 has SOME merit...sorta.
If you're the type of person that looks at MHz as the end-all, be-all of
CPUs, then yes 50MHz is faster than 25MHz.
However, this theory doesn't hold much water when you consider the '030
uses both clocks, meaning it's actually running at 12.5MHz, as opposed to
the '040 which has a single clock, giving it a "real" 25MHz clock.
The 50MHz '030 might get close to the integer performance of the '040, but
no other CISC chip out there has its floating point performance
(3-3.5MFLOPS). Floating point is where you'll see render times decrease by
an order of magnitude.
PS> I hope I got all the terminology right when I described the way the
clocks work on the '030 and '040. I seem to remember it being
described that way in a post from Dave Haynie, many moons ago.
Sean
/\
RealWorld: Sean Cunningham / \ "Doing our business is what
INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com VISION Amigas are for."
Voice: (512) 992-2810 \ /
// \/ "Holy #@*!" - any Psygnosis
KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ GRAPHICS game playertaab5@isuvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) (05/29/91)
In article <1991May27.221611.5425@crash.cts.com>, seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from moonhawk@bluemoon.uucp > >If you check out the most recent Amazing, or Video Review, you'll see what >the "standalone" Toaster, or "Trojan Horse," really is. > >It's an A2000 with a big Video Toaster sticker slapped over the Amiga >decal. It has a 52MB drive, and 5MB (I think). > >Regardless of what the Macfolk wish to believe, they're buying an Amiga, >they're using an Amiga, it IS an Amiga. And the same effect can be >attained by plugging in any Amiga to a Mac...big deal. > >Personally, I think New Tek is getting too kocky (trying to spell it so >that no one is offended :) From what I've heard, there is no mention of >the Amiga whatsoever in the literature on the "Trojan Horse," and it's >being billed as "Amiga compatible" by the press. On top of that, Tim >Jenison has supposedly said he is partial to Mac systems in on interview. Perhaps Mr. Jenison is starting to realize where the real money is. In the U.S., there are roughly 10 MACs for every Amiga, and most of the MACs are being used for professional purposes by people with money, while most of the Amigas are being used for games by people who have very little money. I figured NewTek would eventually find the MAC market utterly irresistable, and I was right. > >Add all this up, and it's reason enough for me to think twice about buying >one, even when they do get it up to snuff for the A3000. The only thing >right now that still makes me want one is Allen Hastings' renderer... > >Sorry if this seems bitchy, but I don't have access to .advocacy :) > >Sean > /\ > RealWorld: Sean Cunningham / \ "Doing our business is what > INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com VISION Amigas are for." > Voice: (512) 992-2810 \ / > // \/ "Holy #@*!" - any Psygnosis > KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ GRAPHICS game player ------------------------------------------------------------- / Marc Barrett -MB- | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / / ISU COM S Student | Internet: XGR39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU / ------------------------------------------------------------ \ ISU : The Home of the Goon / \ Who wants to Blow Up the Moon / -------------------------------------------------------
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (05/30/91)
In-Reply-To: message from es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
If Commodore is designing an i386 bridgecard, then there isn't anything to
keep them from passing the Amiga's video through and across to the PC side,
where it combines the VGA with the Amiga's display through some kind of
"genlocking" process. It could also contain the necessary scan-doubling
hardware to allow the user to hook up a single VGA moniter that would
function for both sides...hence, the VGA display in a window on the
WorkBench.
How can you state a limitation for a product that has yet to come into
existence, eh?
We can speculate all we want, but it isn't wise to say a product CAN'T do
something when neither you or anyone else has seen it.
Sean
/\
RealWorld: Sean Cunningham / \ "Doing our business is what
INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com VISION Amigas are for."
Voice: (512) 992-2810 \ /
// \/ "Holy #@*!" - any Psygnosis
KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ GRAPHICS game playerseanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (05/30/91)
In-Reply-To: message from uunix@triton.unm.edu
If NewTek wishes to get the Macfolk into the Toaster market via the "Trojan
Horse," that's their choice. And so long as it's as crippled a solution as
it is (in the sense that they still have own and use an Amiga) I don't see
why they shouldn't make money off of them.
What I DON'T like is the fact that they seem to be totally ignoring the
the fact that if it were not for the Amiga, they would have no product.
The Amiga was leading in the video market long before the Toaster was
released...NewTek just gave us a champion.
I'm afraid of them pulling an Electronic Arts and forgetting their
roots...forgetting where it was that they started. I have very little
respect at all for companies like EA and Byte-by-Byte because they seem to
have forgotten that it was the Amiga market that really got them going.
I have little use for the DVEs, and no use at all for ToasterPaint. But
to me, Lightwave alone is worth $1595.
If NewTek doesn't get on the ball and start producing versions that provide
component output, S-Video, etc. they're going to loose their hardware
advantage to the competition very shortly. They also need to incorporate a
GOOD chroma-key (that luminance keyer just doesn't cut it).
But Lightwave is another story. Even though it doesn't raytrace (I know it
raytraces shadows), I don't think anything short of Renderman for the Amiga
will beat it on rendering.
Sean
/\
RealWorld: Sean Cunningham / \ "Doing our business is what
INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com VISION Amigas are for."
Voice: (512) 992-2810 \ /
// \/ "Holy #@*!" - any Psygnosis
KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ GRAPHICS game playeres1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (05/30/91)
In article <1991May30.053626.24256@crash.cts.com> seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu > > >If Commodore is designing an i386 bridgecard, then there isn't anything to >keep them from passing the Amiga's video through and across to the PC side, >where it combines the VGA with the Amiga's display through some kind of >"genlocking" process. It could also contain the necessary scan-doubling >hardware to allow the user to hook up a single VGA moniter that would >function for both sides...hence, the VGA display in a window on the >WorkBench. > >How can you state a limitation for a product that has yet to come into >existence, eh? > >We can speculate all we want, but it isn't wise to say a product CAN'T do >something when neither you or anyone else has seen it. > I believe I did say that it was impossible unless the video slot is used, which, as I understand it, is required for the solution you mentioned. Few people are willing to waste their CPU slot just to put the VGA in a window rather than have a separate output. It seems like this would be ridiculously complicated/expensive. What happens if the VGA board is put into a 320x400 mode while the Amiga is in a 640x400 mode, for example. Or what about 732x480? Considering the bridge boards don't seem to be a priority at Commodore, and even if they were the cost of this would be enormous, ... Well, I'll concede it to be theoretically possible. It would seem a much cheaper option for Commodore to have a built-in VGA port on the BB and give you a switch-box. >Sean > /\ > RealWorld: Sean Cunningham / \ "Doing our business is what > INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com VISION Amigas are for." > Voice: (512) 992-2810 \ / > // \/ "Holy #@*!" - any Psygnosis > KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ GRAPHICS game player Now the world has gone to bed, Now I lay me down to sleep, Darkness won't engulf my head, Try to count electric sheep, I can see by infrared, Sweet dream wishes you can keep, How I hate the night. How I hate the night. -- Marvin
drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Donald Richard Tillery Jr) (05/31/91)
In a message From: mwm@pa.dec.com (Mike (My Watch Has Windows) Meyer) >I've seen the '040 quoted at anywhere between 12 and 20 MIPS. The Motorola literature indicates the 68040 @ 25Mhz runs 21 MIPS. >previous generation of Sun chips were quoted at 14 MIPS. The current >generation is quoted at 25 MIPS(*). Ergo, the '040 isn't faster than >Sun's processor, at least based on the numbers I've seen. > > and that a GVP 3050 board is faster than an '040 > >What clock speed '040? And running what application? And in the what >system? There's no way a GVP 3050 will be faster than a (hypothetical) >50MHz '040 on a daughterboard on the 3050 card. It's unlikely that the >3050 is faster than a 25MHz or faster 040 in the same situation. On >the other hand, the 3050 should blow the doors off an '040 card (any >speed) in a 2000 CPU slot with no 32 bit memory. > > so a 3050 equipped Amiga is faster than a Sun. WRONG! Even if you have a linear speedup from 25 to 50 MHZ (which you don't) the 50 MHz would only run at twice my 25 (now 30)Mhz '030 which achieves 7.5 MIPS - that's 15 MIPS and that is less than 75% of the 21 MIPS of the '040. Adding in the 10X speedup of the FPU (2X for transcendental functions) and the 68040 "should blow the doors off an" '030. > >Well, it's certainly faster than the last one I used (a 3/50). Then >again, so is my Amiga 3000. Of course, on the right applications, my >Amiga 3000 is faster than the 3050. On the other hand, I'd be Under WHAT applications is your 3000 faster than a 3050? Even if everything happens in chip RAM, the extra 16 bits doesn't make enough difference to out run a 50 MHz '030. I'd like to see one that did! Please upload such an application for me to test myself. >surprised if any of the above was faster than a SparcStation 2. > > I didn't read this in AmigaWhirled. > >I'll agree with that - while they may publish fluff, they usually get >their fact straight. > By the way, the comment in Amiga World (and elsewhere) was misquoted - as usual! What GVP said was that at present their 50 MHz 68030 out runs THEIR ALPHA 68040 card (which runs about 14 MIPS right now). They aren't satisfied with that speed, and they are working on it. But that does NOT mean that the eventual production version won't hit the 20MIPS mark (which it should). What I'm wondering is whether I can push the 68040 like I have my 68030 - right now I've stretched my 25 MHz 68030 to 30 MHz. 20% is a rather large push, but it seems to work fine so far. Rick Tillery (drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu)
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (05/31/91)
In-Reply-To: message from seanc@pro-party.cts.com
OOps..."the '030 uses both clocks, meaning it's actually running at
12.5MHz..."
This would be true for a 25MHz '030, like I have in my A3000, but it would
mean that the GVP board is actually running at 25MHz when you do the divide
by two.
Sean
/\
RealWorld: Sean Cunningham / \ "Doing our business is what
INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com VISION Amigas are for."
Voice: (512) 992-2810 \ /
// \/ "Holy #@*!" - any Psygnosis
KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ GRAPHICS game playerseanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (05/31/91)
In-Reply-To: message from taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu
Oh God, -MB- is back...
For one thing, most of the Macs in the world now are owned by individuals.
The individuals who use their Macs for professional purposes are mainly
interested in publishing, illustration, and graphic design...not what the
Video Toaster was intended for.
If a Mac user wants to use the Video Toaster to do some real video
production, then that's fine. But for every "Trojan Horse" that's bought
by a Mac user, that's one more Amiga in the world, whether it says it on
the box or not.
If the Mac people are the ones with the real money, then how come the top
selling Macs now are the low-end jobbers that don't have the power to do
much, and the SE/30, another low-power, limited expansion box. Gimme a
break!
Why not merge back in with the flock of sheep that follow Big Red's PR
hype...
Sean
/\
RealWorld: Sean Cunningham / \ "Doing our business is what
INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com VISION Amigas are for."
Voice: (512) 992-2810 \ /
// \/ "Holy #@*!" - any Psygnosis
KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ GRAPHICS game playerseanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (06/01/91)
In-Reply-To: message from es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
Why would it have to use the videoslot? The Firecracker 24 doesn't use the
videoslot, yet it supports the overlay of your WorkBench screen over a
24bit canvas.
In the screenshots of this in action was a standard (substandard in my
opinion) 640x200 non-interlaced WorkBench screen sitting on top of a
high-resolution overscanned 24bit screen. This could have been either
512x482 or 768x482...there's your two different resolution screens in
action. Also, television isn't 320x200 pixels, yet you can overlay a
screen of this resolution.
I agree that this would probubly be more expensive than just sticking the
VGA chipset onto a BB...but it is the more convenient option. Plus, you
still need to figure in the cost of buying a second moniter.
Sean
/\
RealWorld: Sean Cunningham / \ "Doing our business is what
INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com VISION Amigas are for."
Voice: (512) 992-2810 \ /
// \/ "Holy #@*!" - any Psygnosis
KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ GRAPHICS game playeres1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (06/01/91)
In article <1991Jun1.011609.5631@crash.cts.com> seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) writes: >In-Reply-To: message from es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu > > >Why would it have to use the videoslot? The Firecracker 24 doesn't use the >videoslot, yet it supports the overlay of your WorkBench screen over a >24bit canvas. > Hmm. So how did they do it? Did they connect a cable from the RGB port at the back into the FireCracker board itself? >I agree that this would probubly be more expensive than just sticking the >VGA chipset onto a BB...but it is the more convenient option. Plus, you >still need to figure in the cost of buying a second moniter. > Or a switchbox. That's what (apparently) a lot of people do. >Sean > /\ > RealWorld: Sean Cunningham / \ "Doing our business is what > INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com VISION Amigas are for." > Voice: (512) 992-2810 \ / > // \/ "Holy #@*!" - any Psygnosis > KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ GRAPHICS game player Now the world has gone to bed, Now I lay me down to sleep, Darkness won't engulf my head, Try to count electric sheep, I can see by infrared, Sweet dream wishes you can keep, How I hate the night. How I hate the night. -- Marvin
elg@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM (Eric Lee Green) (06/02/91)
From article <1991May31.041515.14091@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu>, by drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Donald Richard Tillery Jr): > In a message From: mwm@pa.dec.com (Mike (My Watch Has Windows) Meyer) > >>I've seen the '040 quoted at anywhere between 12 and 20 MIPS. The > > Motorola literature indicates the 68040 @ 25Mhz runs 21 MIPS. 1 MIP: Meaningless Indicator of Performance MIPS: Mythical Instructions Per Second People assign these mythical "MIPS" numbers to processors based upon "gosh, I think it's fast, what number can I give it that'll prove it?". I kid you not. That's exactly how DEC assigned the value "1 MIPS" to the Vax 780... they said "Well, this thing goes about as fast as an IBM 370 mainframe, which did a million (real) instructions per second... even though we only do 500,000 instructions per second, OUR instructions DO MORE... so we'll call it a 1 MIP machine!" -- Eric Lee Green elg@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM uunet!mjbtn!raider!elgamy!elg "One problem with Bruce Springsteen is that you can't construct .signatures from his lyrics, unless you want a novel."