davidm@uunet.UU.NET (David S. Masterson) (06/01/91)
Somebody I know who works at a television station mentioned that they've used Amigas with Video Toasters for some work, but don't consider the output of the Toaster to be "truly" professional. Being a layman myself, I'm not quite sure what he means (something about the "cleanness" of the signal). Can someone shed some light? -- ==================================================================== David Masterson Consilium, Inc. (415) 691-6311 640 Clyde Ct. uunet!cimshop!davidm Mtn. View, CA 94043 ==================================================================== "If someone thinks they know what I said, then I didn't say it!"
sheasby@dgp.toronto.edu (Michael C. Sheasby) (06/02/91)
cimshop!davidm@uunet.UU.NET (David S. Masterson) writes: >Somebody I know who works at a television station mentioned that they've used >Amigas with Video Toasters for some work, but don't consider the output of the >Toaster to be "truly" professional. Being a layman myself, I'm not quite sure >what he means (something about the "cleanness" of the signal). Can someone >shed some light? Hokay... The output from the toaster is just vanilla ntsc composite, which just doesn't cut the mustard in a professional setting. For a television station worth its salt, only 'component' video hardware will do. Component boxes split the image down into R-Y,G-Y,and Y (Betacam), Y and C (S-VHS) or R,G,and B (computer output before encoding)... the basic idea being to preserve the quality of the video as long as possible before it gets mashed down into a composite signal for consumer audiences. The toaster doesn't have the bandwidth (horizontal resolution) to compete with truly pro effect boxes, and would look pretty cheesy beside them. It just doesn't make sense to shoot Betacam, convert to composite for a frame store, doodle on the image with a toaster, then output from composite back to Betacam/Abekas/3/4 SP or whathaveyou. so there ya go. $.02, please. ---Mike. .
wright@etsuv2.etsu.edu (BRIAN WRIGHT) (06/02/91)
In article <CIMSHOP!DAVIDM.91May31154525@uunet.UU.NET>, cimshop!davidm@uunet.UU.NET (David S. Masterson) writes... >Somebody I know who works at a television station mentioned that they've used >Amigas with Video Toasters for some work, but don't consider the output of the >Toaster to be "truly" professional. Being a layman myself, I'm not quite sure >what he means (something about the "cleanness" of the signal). Can someone >shed some light? What he may be talking about is the composite output. The composite output in and among itself degrades the signal. Probably the cleanest signal you can produce is the RGB signal that the computer generates, unfortunately that signal isn't very compatible with MOST broadcast set-ups. When you start combining things into one signal degredation is inevetible. The electronics included to produce the composite output within the toaster may not be quite as good as it possibly can be. This means, the output may or may not be 'broadcast quality'. Of course, considering the Toaster with everything you need (computer, memory and everything) is around $5000 it does give quite superb output. However, if you compare this system to a $90,000+ setup it would sort of lack. That DOESN'T mean that it isn't a viable alternative to the $90,000 setup because the monetary difference is QUITE large. >-- >==================================================================== >David Masterson Consilium, Inc. >(415) 691-6311 640 Clyde Ct. >uunet!cimshop!davidm Mtn. View, CA 94043 >==================================================================== >"If someone thinks they know what I said, then I didn't say it!" -------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Wright wright%etsuvax2@ricevm1.rice.edu or wright@etsuvax2.bitnet -------------------------------------------------------------- Standard Disclaimer... not my words and all that jazz.
bobl@graphics.rent.com (Bob Lindabury - SysAdm) (06/03/91)
sheasby@dgp.toronto.edu (Michael C. Sheasby) writes: > The output from the toaster is just vanilla ntsc composite, which just > doesn't cut the mustard in a professional setting. For a television > station worth its salt, only 'component' video hardware will do. Component > boxes split the image down into R-Y,G-Y,and Y (Betacam), Y and C (S-VHS) > or R,G,and B (computer output before encoding)... the basic idea being > to preserve the quality of the video as long as possible before it gets > mashed down into a composite signal for consumer audiences. The toaster > doesn't have the bandwidth (horizontal resolution) to compete with > truly pro effect boxes, and would look pretty cheesy beside them. It > just doesn't make sense to shoot Betacam, convert to composite for > a frame store, doodle on the image with a toaster, then output from > composite back to Betacam/Abekas/3/4 SP or whathaveyou. > > so there ya go. $.02, please. Erg. Why don't you tell that to Cap. Cities who purchased several Toasters for thier edit suites. Try finding even a composite effects box for $1500. In all reality, you can't find anything comparable to the Toaster for under $10k. The composite output serves several peoples needs for the money. All of the above is fine and dandy when you have some major bucks to spend but it's all achedemic because the final output and what we all see is only that lousy vanilla NTSC composite video anyway. If you work smart and don't drop too many generations, you can do quite a nice job with the Toaster for certain things. -- Bob The Graphics BBS 908/469-0049 "It's better than a sharp stick in the eye!" ============================================================================ InterNet: bobl@graphics.rent.com | Raven Enterprises UUCP: ...rutgers!bobsbox!graphics!bobl | 25 Raven Avenue BitNet: bobl%graphics.rent.com@pucc | Piscataway, NJ 08854 Home #: 908/560-7353 | 908/271-8878
sheasby@dgp.toronto.edu (Michael C. Sheasby) (06/03/91)
bobl@graphics.rent.com (Bob Lindabury - SysAdm) writes: >sheasby@dgp.toronto.edu (Michael C. Sheasby) writes: >> The output from the toaster is just vanilla ntsc composite, which just >> doesn't cut the mustard in a professional setting. For a television >> station worth its salt, only 'component' video hardware will do. Component .. Blah blah blah... >> just doesn't make sense to shoot Betacam, convert to composite for >> a frame store, doodle on the image with a toaster, then output from >> composite back to Betacam/Abekas/3/4 SP or whathaveyou. >Erg. Why don't you tell that to Cap. Cities who purchased several >Toasters for thier edit suites. Try finding even a composite effects >box for $1500. In all reality, you can't find anything comparable to >the Toaster for under $10k. The composite output serves several >peoples needs for the money. All of the above is fine and dandy when Thinks: Everybody goes on about how the toaster is just $1500. Give me a huge break. Amiga + 8Megs + SCSI + Accelerator + 100Meg drive + 2 TBCs + Toaster = 2000+600+100+500+600+2000+1500=$7300 (at least in Canada). Don't get me wrong: I appreciate what the toaster is doing and think it's a pretty amazing machine for the money. Of course. And I'm aware of how much a good non-composite effects box is. But another thought to keep in mind is that the video effects on the toaster are strictly NOT curvilinear... ie only squash and stretch effects, no smooth rotations in the z direction and no perspective keystoning. These are the sorts of effects you get with true effects boxes for only a few K more... ie the Sony DME, which can be upgraded to SVHS easily. For my money I find it more intelligent to add 24-bit functionality using a DCTV unit and then to go to a studio with better effects to do the editing. At $30/hour for beautiful effects, the studio I use has in essence earned me the price of a toaster several times over. Owning your own equipment is a bad plan... you have to pay maintenance, keep it competitive with other companies, put up with having strangers use it to pay it off, and of course come up with the capital to buy it all in the first place. If you use your computer as a switcher, it means that it's tied up for other uses... a studio I go to sometimes found it necessary to buy another Amiga to do titling and bookkeeping offline, instead of mucking up the edit suite all the time. So the cost just went up by another $3000 right there. I'm not about to say that there isn't a place for the toaster... but if you read the original post, somebody wanted to know why professional studios sniff at the toaster. That's what I was responding to; I wasn't responding to the question, "Is the toaster any good for non-broadcast applications? " >you have some major bucks to spend but it's all achedemic because the >final output and what we all see is only that lousy vanilla NTSC >composite video anyway. If you work smart and don't drop too many Pretty specious logic. It most certainly isn't academic. One last think: Don't flame back with something to the effect that this is all well and good if you can afford a complete component system with dedicated video hardware. I CAN'T afford to buy all this equipment myself. But who cares? You don't pay for the editing and post work on your productions, your client does. I'm the original starving student, but I can still produce videos that weren't shot edited or sent through post equipment on composite. I'd prefer to rent a studio and keep it financially solvent with the help of other indie producers than go through with blowing several tens of thousands on my own equipment. >-- Bob ---Mike.
bobl@graphics.rent.com (Bob Lindabury - SysAdm) (06/04/91)
sheasby@dgp.toronto.edu (Michael C. Sheasby) writes: > >Erg. Why don't you tell that to Cap. Cities who purchased several > >Toasters for thier edit suites. Try finding even a composite effects > >box for $1500. In all reality, you can't find anything comparable to > >the Toaster for under $10k. The composite output serves several > >peoples needs for the money. All of the above is fine and dandy when > > Thinks: Everybody goes on about how the toaster is just $1500. Give > me a huge break. Amiga + 8Megs + SCSI + Accelerator + 100Meg drive > + 2 TBCs + Toaster = 2000+600+100+500+600+2000+1500=$7300 (at least > in Canada). That's why I quoted the 10k figure. > I'm not about to say that there isn't a place for the toaster... > but if you read the original post, somebody wanted to know why > professional studios sniff at the toaster. That's what I was > responding to; I wasn't responding to the question, "Is the toaster > any good for non-broadcast applications? Well, I don't know where you get your information but I told you in the first paragraph that Capital Cities purchased several Toasters. Do you know who they are? That's ABC. I would have to say they are a pretty major studio. > ---Mike. -- Bob The Graphics BBS 908/469-0049 "It's better than a sharp stick in the eye!" ============================================================================ InterNet: bobl@graphics.rent.com | Raven Enterprises UUCP: ...rutgers!bobsbox!graphics!bobl | 25 Raven Avenue BitNet: bobl%graphics.rent.com@pucc | Piscataway, NJ 08854 Home #: 908/560-7353 | 908/271-8878