rnollman@maxzilla.encore.com (Richard Nollman) (05/31/91)
I just wanted to post a reply that I got from Wayne Knapp (HASH Marketing) to
my recent post about the availability of Animation Journeyman. I have no more
comments because for me it is a lost cause. My apologies to Sean Cunningham
who posted an excellent and honest review of the software and seems to be
very happy with his purchase. His contribution is productive and informative.
I do not want this dialogue to escalate any more. I wish HASH Enterprises the
best of luck with their product.
So here is Wayne Knapp's reply:
Not to make you angry, but the answer is simple:
1. Go to Siggraph, we will be there
2. If you can't afford the $500 for Jman which is a lot of program,
then to honest, you can't afford to do real animation.
We are far more interested in the people trying to do a 20 minute animation,
the the people that are just toying with animation. If you are doing a big
project, then $500 is nothing.
Also we are an animation company, not an Amiga company. We have a lot of
stuff running on the Amiga, but also on the IBM and even the MAC.
I'm afraid that $500 is an introductory price. We will not be able to
survive forever at that pricing, so it will be higher. The IBM and MAC
version will most likely be priced at $1000. We will just be starting to
sell them this summer.
Wayne Knapp
P.S. It sounds like you are angry, because we are selling the product at a
price that you like. But is that really fair to us? My personal feeling is
that if $500 (which we would refund if you were not happy) is too big of a
deal, than you can't afford the investiment it takes to really produce an
high quality animation.
--
waynekn@techbook.COM ...!{tektronix!nosun,uunet}techbook!waynekn
Public Access UNIX at (503) 644-8135 (1200/2400) Voice: +1 503 646-8257
Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbookswaynekn@techbook.com (Wayne Knapp) (06/01/91)
rnollman@maxzilla.encore.com (Richard Nollman) writes: >I just wanted to post a reply that I got from Wayne Knapp (HASH Marketing) to I'm not the HASH marketing guy. I have nothing to do with marketing at all, other than working with Martin to figure out what we what to do in reguards to marketing! I have worked with Martin on the programming end of Hash enterprises for the last four years, off and on. Hence I was just giving you information since Martin is not on the net, and refuses to log in. However, my comments are valid. We are suppling tools for animation, but we are not just another flying logo generating company. Wayne Knapp -- waynekn@techbook.COM ...!{tektronix!nosun,uunet}techbook!waynekn Public Access UNIX at (503) 644-8135 (1200/2400) Voice: +1 503 646-8257 Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
jason@cbmami.UUCP (Jason Goldberg) (06/01/91)
Martin, Let me just say I am sorry to have caused you this grief on the net with my origonal post. I did not intend to imply anything negative about your product, I believe I stated several times that from the little I have seen of Jman I really like it. Personally, I was/am disappointed with your decision not to sell through dealers. As one potential customer of your products I decided to let you know, and I encouraged other potential customers to do the same. If you were to find that many people wanted to buy your products from a dealer then perhaps you would change your policy. If no one else felt the same as me then you would have had your policy confirmed. Now you know how I feel and you know how some others feel as well. I am sorry you took my post as a flame, it was not intended as such. However, you and some others have some misconceptions that I would like to address. First of all, if you really thing that I expected to make any money selling JMan then you are crazy. You get your cut on evey Jman sold where I only get my cut on the ones I sell. You get a piece of every JMan I sell, plus you act as my competator and get both pieces when you can sell direct. The market for JMan is very small (the market for any serious Animation package is small), I couldn't sell many and I couldn't sell them at a very bit profit. So why you ask would I even want your product in my store? Simple, when a customer walks into my store and says I just quit my job so that I can start my own animation company, I can sell him X number of Accellerated Amigas, HardDrives, Sysquests, Monitors, 24-bit cards, single-frame controllers and decks, etc... all with your software! Now guess where my profit is there? Not with your software, but your software makes the sale, thats why I need it in the store. When I called your company, all I asked is that you let me break even on the product. If you are selling the product for $500 then you have to sell it to me for $450 so that I can cover my costs in ordering the product, displaying the products, training my staff, etc... and still sell the product for $500 so I am competative with you. Its funny that you are worried about me undercutting you, because I am worried about you undercutting me! It seems all too likely that I buy JMan for $500 and sell it to my customers at my loss for $500, only to have you walk around a shows saying "JMan costs $500 but if you buy today I can give it to you for $450." What I am trying to avoid is spending my time promoting your product, only to have my customers go to you and buy it for less. Even more important than that if I have 3 copies of your software v1.3 on my self and you come out with v2.0 I can't take the loss on that, you need to stock balance my 1.3's in exchange for 2.0's plus the difference in price, and you were not willing to do that! So currently I can't afford to have your product in my store. I sell Amigas to proffesional animation studio's all the time, I have even sold to Disney and IL&M! I can't sell or recomend your product to anyone because you won't play ball. Your arguments about Distributors or outstanding bills are mute since I called Hash and tried to order 3 JMans COD, before I was told your upgrade policy and pricing structure. I wish you and your customers all the luck in the world with JMan. I hope you make $$ and are always able to support your customers. I can't help but to keep thinking, there was a time when EA could have taken the same marketing stratagy with DeluxePaint that you are taking with JMan, and they would have been able to make all the same arguments, Newtek surely could have done what you are doing... -Jason- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jason Goldberg UUCP: ucsd!serene!cbmami!jason Del Mar, CA
bobl@graphics.rent.com (Bob Lindabury - SysAdm) (06/03/91)
jason@cbmami.UUCP (Jason Goldberg) writes: > When I called your company, all I asked is that you let me break > even on the product. If you are selling the product for $500 then you have > to sell it to me for $450 so that I can cover my costs in ordering the > product, displaying the products, training my staff, etc... and still sell > the product for $500 so I am competative with you. Its funny that you are > worried about me undercutting you, because I am worried about you > undercutting me! It seems all too likely that I buy JMan for $500 and sell > it to my customers at my loss for $500, only to have you walk around a > shows saying "JMan costs $500 but if you buy today I can give it to you for > $450." What I am trying to avoid is spending my time promoting your > product, only to have my customers go to you and buy it for less. I believe your above stated logic is wrong. You do *not* have to purchase Jman for $450 to cover your costs. I don't know what kind of business you are running there but it seems to me that if you are basing your profit on the sale of hardware that is working around the Jman product, then you can slip in an additional "system" fee and cover your costs that way. We sell systems to people but when we talk to them we tell them right up front that if they are shopping for price, they should look elsewhere. We provide a *complete* solution to our clients particular needs and that type of service comes at a premium. We don't sell them a system and itemize each piece. We quote a solution to them and a cost for that solution. Since people purchasing he Jman product need much more than a stock Amiga, it would seem to me that they are going to need the expertise and knowlegable help of a reputable dealer/VAR. The payback comes in service and a training program. I suggest that instead of bellyaching to Wayne about how terrible Hash's pricing structure is, you rethink how *you* market your systems and come up with a solution. After all, $500 for a product like Jman is ludicrous. It should be going for > $1000 a pop. Would you feel better with a list price of $1000 and you paying around $800? At that point, you are just playing the old numbers game where the middlemen win and you lose. We charge close to list for everything we put into our systems because we are supplying the knowhow to the people so that when they get to thier studio they are not sitting in front of a bunch of high-priced hardware not knowing which end is up. We provide the training and procedures our clients need to immediately start producing on the system. This is where you should be thinking about making money. Not on margins and quantities. What ever happened to customer service in America!? -- Bob The Graphics BBS 908/469-0049 "It's better than a sharp stick in the eye!" ============================================================================ InterNet: bobl@graphics.rent.com | Raven Enterprises UUCP: ...rutgers!bobsbox!graphics!bobl | 25 Raven Avenue BitNet: bobl%graphics.rent.com@pucc | Piscataway, NJ 08854 Home #: 908/560-7353 | 908/271-8878
lord_zar@ucrmath.ucr.edu (wayne wallace) (06/03/91)
waynekn@techbook.com (Wayne Knapp) writes: >not interested in the same type of business as those companies. So comparing >us to them is MUTE. That's MOOT. And for a real question, would you please tell us why the idea of Letting dealers have your product on their shelves to entice people into buying complete Amiga systems would not work? Price does not matter to most people starting an animation company, so if your software were to sell for $1000 retail, $700-$800 dealer price, dealers would not only have your product on the shelves, but have a WONDERFUL piece of software to show off to anyone interested in using the Amiga for animation. And no, I am not a dealer, nor a distributor, nor do I run my own company, so please POST as to why this approach (originally suggested by another poster within the past week) would not work. I'm interested, because your product could help Amiga sales as well as your own, and the Amiga needs all the positive PR it can get. > Wayne Knapp Wayne Wallace
waynekn@techbook.com (Wayne Knapp) (06/03/91)
jason@cbmami.UUCP (Jason Goldberg) writes: >Martin, > Let me just say I am sorry to have caused you this grief on the net >with my origonal post. I did not intend to imply anything negative about >your product, I believe I stated several times that from the little I have >seen of Jman I really like it. To reach Martin, call him at (206) 573-9427. He isn't on the net and he doesn't want to be. I'm not going to take the time to download his messages and print them out for him to see. > Personally, I was/am disappointed with your decision not to sell >through dealers. As one potential customer of your products I decided to It isn't so much dealers, as it is Amiga stores. A person that is selling the product is one thing. Paying for shelf space is another. > I am sorry you took my post as a flame, it was not intended as >such. However, you and some others have some misconceptions that I would >like to address. Most things on the net come off as flames. People tend to see the negitive, es. in public. >Now guess where my profit is there? Not with your software, but your >software makes the sale, thats why I need it in the store. If the software makes the sale, you should be reasonalbe about selling it. >are mute since I called Hash and tried to order 3 JMans COD, before I was >told your upgrade policy and pricing structure. This is the problem. We are going to sell blank, (non-protected) JMans. You would have to collect the money and call in the orders with the customers name, address and phone. Every copy of JourneyMan get personalised. This is our only protection. > I wish you and your customers all the luck in the world with JMan. >I hope you make $$ and are always able to support your customers. >I can't help but to keep thinking, there was a time when EA could have taken >the same marketing stratagy with DeluxePaint that you are taking with JMan, >and they would have been able to make all the same arguments, Newtek surely >could have done what you are doing... What about IBM, HP, DEC, SUN, and many, many, many, more companies. If you want to sell our product, you need to sell on our terms. DPaint is a very different product in a very different market. Newtek is a very different company. We don't want to be either of them. They are NOT role models to us. Wayne Knapp -- waynekn@techbook.COM ...!{tektronix!nosun,uunet}techbook!waynekn Public Access UNIX at (503) 644-8135 (1200/2400) Voice: +1 503 646-8257 Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
kudla@jec313.its.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) (06/03/91)
waynekn@techbook.com (Wayne Knapp) writes: >Just for your interest. We are not EA or NewTek, nor do we want to be. We >have had a lot of dealings with both of these companies. Not everything is >as rosey as it always seems. However, we are not in the same market, and >not interested in the same type of business as those companies. So comparing >us to them is MUTE. "Moot", Wayne. I would suggest that posting to Usenet might have a better effect on your company's sales and public image if you can manage to post *without* digs at other companies or at your potential customers. If you go on claiming that this or that person is not one of your customers... chances are they won't be. Your image as representative of a company that markets to the Amiga is probably already hurting enough from your spiel last year about how far superior that Japanese AT clone was over the Amiga. -- Robert Jude Kudla <kudla@rpi.edu> You cannot go against nature, because when you do Going 'gainst nature is part of nature too....
waynekn@techbook.com (Wayne Knapp) (06/03/91)
waynekn@techbook.com (Wayne Knapp) writes: >jason@cbmami.UUCP (Jason Goldberg) writes: >This is the problem. We are going to sell blank, (non-protected) JMans. >You would have to collect the money and call in the orders with the >customers name, address and phone. Every copy of JourneyMan get personalised. >This is our only protection. I meant that we are NOT going to sell non-copy protected versions of JMan. Every copy must be personalised, or it isn't shipped. This is our way of protecting our investment. (Don't try to convince me that there is not any illegal coping of software in the Amiga market. It is just as bad as the IBM/Mac markets.) The key issue is that producing a program like Animation:Jourenyman is years of work. It is hard to put a price on it. It is normal for us to try to protect our investment. If we just wanted to make a fast buy, maybe we would sell it cheap and fast, but instead we are trying to build a real market with some holding power. That is we have a lot of plans of where to go to next. Animation:Jouneryman 1.3 is by no means the end. Also we will continue to support the Amiga market. As we use Amigas ourselfs. Wayne Knapp -- waynekn@techbook.COM ...!{tektronix!nosun,uunet}techbook!waynekn Public Access UNIX at (503) 644-8135 (1200/2400) Voice: +1 503 646-8257 Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
wright@etsuv2.etsu.edu (BRIAN WRIGHT) (06/03/91)
In article <1991Jun2.221830.1635@techbook.com>, waynekn@techbook.com (Wayne Knapp) writes... >jason@cbmami.UUCP (Jason Goldberg) writes: >It isn't so much dealers, as it is Amiga stores. A person that is selling >the product is one thing. Paying for shelf space is another. All I can really say about the above is that this is just a lame excuse to stop the piracy on a product that will probably never see the light of day. Sorry be so blunt about it, but without dealer help this product will probably NEVER get off the ground. The Amiga is a small market anyway, and to sell this product exclusively through mail order is really a sure way to keep this product out of the hands you hold so dear. Let me put it another way, let's say Joe User just walks in your Amiga store and asks, "What 3D and animation packages do you have?", JMan will NEVER come up in the conversation. Why? It's NOT on the shelves and a dealer isn't going to endorse a product that they don't have. They also aren't going to lose a sale by saying, "Oh, perhaps you should mail or call HASH enterprises and ask about JMan". Surely NOT. If I owned an Amiga store, I certainly would NEVER do that. No matter HOW good the product claims to be. No hands on = no sale (in my book). Even a freely redistributable demo MIGHT help you to that end, but still can't cut the mustard for dealer support. >>Now guess where my profit is there? Not with your software, but your >>software makes the sale, thats why I need it in the store. > >If the software makes the sale, you should be reasonalbe about selling it. And who is being unreasonable with software? Yes, there always tends to be a mark-up on software in your local retail establishment, but they have to pay bills too. Especially considering the difference between a mail-order ONLY outlet and a commercial retail venture with store space. >>are mute since I called Hash and tried to order 3 JMans COD, before I was >>told your upgrade policy and pricing structure. > >This is the problem. We are going to sell blank, (non-protected) JMans. >You would have to collect the money and call in the orders with the >customers name, address and phone. Every copy of JourneyMan get personalised. >This is our only protection. Yes and as I have said above, it is a futile attempt at piracy prevention. Once the pirates get ahold of it, it's not going to stop them just because of a little personalization. The only thing this marketing strategy will do is hinder the sale of your product. It may be a great package, but without hands on (which people usually get from their dealer), your product will never get the support which it needs. I do not condone piracy, but personalization isn't going to stop them. The only thing that your marketing for this product will do is keep your sales on this product to word-of-mouth. Joe Next-Door-Neighbor might have accidentally found out about JMan and bought one on a whim. Then shows it to HIS next door neighbor who has an IBM. That's as far as it goes. Of course, I can NEVER afford to plop down $350-$400 without hands on. That's TOO expensive of a risk. You're probably saying, "But it's a great product". That may be, but to ME it's still a risk that I can't afford. >> I wish you and your customers all the luck in the world with JMan. >>I hope you make $$ and are always able to support your customers. >>I can't help but to keep thinking, there was a time when EA could have taken >>the same marketing stratagy with DeluxePaint that you are taking with JMan, >>and they would have been able to make all the same arguments, Newtek surely >>could have done what you are doing... > >What about IBM, HP, DEC, SUN, and many, many, many, more companies. If you >want to sell our product, you need to sell on our terms. DPaint is a very >different product in a very different market. Newtek is a very different >company. We don't want to be either of them. They are NOT role models to >us. No, it's not a good idea to emulate any other company, but dealer support IS necessary to make your product really take off. If you MUST personalize the product, why not give the stores instructions on how to do this? But then I guess you don't trust dealers. Nevermind that trust was what the country was founded on. > Wayne Knapp >-- >waynekn@techbook.COM ...!{tektronix!nosun,uunet}techbook!waynekn >Public Access UNIX at (503) 644-8135 (1200/2400) Voice: +1 503 646-8257 >Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks Just some thoughts... -------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Wright wright%etsuvax2@ricevm1.rice.edu or wright@etsuvax2.bitnet -------------------------------------------------------------- Standard Disclaimer... not my words and all that jazz.
barber@jazz.concert.net (Scott Barber) (06/03/91)
For sanity's sake, give it a rest, people! Hell, if it's so important to some dealer somewhere to have this product on their shelves, let 'em buy it for what it the producer is charging. They can mark it up to $550 if they want (btw, since Goldberg said he wasn't planning on making a software profit anyway, what does he care if someone wants to go to the trouble of going to Hash directly to save a few bucks after spending a few $K on hardware?). There's usually mail-order competition on software, anyway. And what do any of you care if Hash goes out of business because they don't sell enough?!? Most of you that are bitching just want to get your hands on some nice animation software cheap, and it burns you that you can't play with it in the stores. That's your problem, not Hash's. And if they go out of business because of their pricing policy, that's their own damn business, literally, ain't it? Geezz... >... Nevermind that trust was what the country was >founded on. God, our educational system is more $($#ed-up than I had imagined. Scott Barber barber@jazz.concert.net
skank@iastate.edu (Skank George L) (06/03/91)
In article <1991Jun3.022713.4109@techbook.com> waynekn@techbook.com (Wayne Knapp) writes: >waynekn@techbook.com (Wayne Knapp) writes: > >I meant that we are NOT going to sell non-copy protected versions of JMan. >Every copy must be personalised, or it isn't shipped. This is our way of >protecting our investment. (Don't try to convince me that there is not >any illegal coping of software in the Amiga market. It is just as bad as >the IBM/Mac markets.) > >The key issue is that producing a program like Animation:Jourenyman is years >of work. It is hard to put a price on it. It is normal for us to try to >protect our investment. If we just wanted to make a fast buy, maybe we would >sell it cheap and fast, but instead we are trying to build a real market with >some holding power. That is we have a lot of plans of where to go to next. >Animation:Jouneryman 1.3 is by no means the end. Also we will continue to >support the Amiga market. As we use Amigas ourselfs. > > Wayne Knapp I think a lot of people here may not realize that *much* commerical software on larger systems, mainframes and workstations particularly, CANNOT BE BOUGHT! You have to LICENCE it! Take the DEC C compiler for VAX/VMS systems for example, I've heard that the software licence here at Iowa State costs $10000 annually, just for the C compiler. We also have COBOL, BASIC, FORTRAN, and OPS5, which all have similar licences. And that's the educational price. Some Mentor Graphics software costs $50-100,000 annually! You should be happy that Wayne SELLS JMan rather than licencing it. --George -- George L. Skank |Five years ago I couldn't spell engineer. /// Senior, Electrical Engineering |Now I are one. /// Iowa State University, Ames, IA | \\\ /// skank@iastate.edu |Phone: (515) 233-2165 \\X//
kudla@jec313.its.rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) (06/03/91)
skank@iastate.edu (Skank George L) writes: > I think a lot of people here may not realize that *much* commerical >software on larger systems, mainframes and workstations particularly, CANNOT >BE BOUGHT! You have to LICENCE it! Take the DEC C compiler for VAX/VMS As a matter of fact, I'm unaware of any commercial productivity software (and probably any game software as well) that you *don't* license. Next time you pick up an upgrade package for Quattro on the clone, or ProPage or whatever on the Amiga, see if the license agreement that you theoretically agree to before actually seeing it (i.e. by breaking the shrinkwrap) doesn't say something to the effect of "You are granted a limited license that may be revoked at any time by Obnoxious Commercial Software Inc.". Higher price really hasn't much to do with it.... it's just standard operating procedure. For my purposes, of course, I think I've only bought two commercial packages in the last few years (ARexx and MusicX) which didn't have equivalents in the FR software market. When I get a sampler I'll be using MED, in all probability, and hopefully developing my own stuff too. You also don't "own" PD or shareware software.... that's the nature of copyright law (at least in the US). -- Robert Jude Kudla <kudla@rpi.edu> You cannot go against nature, because when you do Going 'gainst nature is part of nature too....
moonhawk@bluemoon.uucp (David Culberson) (06/04/91)
waynekn@techbook.com (Wayne Knapp) writes: > I meant that we are NOT going to sell non-copy protected versions of JMan. > Every copy must be personalised, or it isn't shipped. This is our way of > protecting our investment. (Don't try to convince me that there is not > any illegal coping of software in the Amiga market. It is just as bad as > the IBM/Mac markets.) Wait. Think about it. Do you think that someone who could AFFORD to spend $500 on a software product would pirate it? I think not, he would want the support, the manual, and the tech. help that he gets from buying the product in the stores. If someone is a pirate, I SINCERELY doubt that he could afford the $500 that JMAN costs. He wouldn't buy it, even if he couldn't pirate it. He would do without. Do you think that, just because someone can 't copy it off a friend, that the $500 is going to magically appear in his wallet? Just my experience with pirates is that they couldn't, and wouldn't buy the SW no matter HOW great the price, or HOW hard the protection is. These guys THRIVE on protection. Do you honestly think your protection is so innovative that the thousands of pirates out there can never break it? And, once it's broken, the unprotected version will spread like wildfire. No bull. David Now the world has gone to bed, MoonHawk@Bluemoon.uucp ////|all Darkness won't engulf my head, moonhawk%bluemoon@nstar.rn.com //// |hail I can see by infrared, \\\\///__|the How I hate the night. Yeah, this IS an annoying SIG. \\\\/ |miga
schur@isi.edu (Sean Schur) (06/04/91)
In article <1991Jun3.070812.11563@news.iastate.edu> skank@iastate.edu (Skank George L) writes: >In article <1991Jun3.022713.4109@techbook.com> waynekn@techbook.com (Wayne Knapp) writes: >>waynekn@techbook.com (Wayne Knapp) writes: >> >>I meant that we are NOT going to sell non-copy protected versions of JMan. >>Every copy must be personalised, or it isn't shipped. This is our way of >>protecting our investment. (Don't try to convince me that there is not >>any illegal coping of software in the Amiga market. It is just as bad as >>the IBM/Mac markets.) >> > > I think a lot of people here may not realize that *much* commerical >software on larger systems, mainframes and workstations particularly, CANNOT >BE BOUGHT! You have to LICENCE it! Take the DEC C compiler for VAX/VMS >systems for example, I've heard that the software licence here at Iowa >State costs $10000 annually, just for the C compiler. We also have COBOL, >BASIC, FORTRAN, and OPS5, which all have similar licences. And that's the >educational price. Some Mentor Graphics software costs $50-100,000 annually! >You should be happy that Wayne SELLS JMan rather than licencing it. > > --George >-- I wasn't going to get involved in this argument, but a good point has been made here. There has been recent discussion about ALIAS and WAVEFRONT software as well. This policy holds true not only for C compilers and system software, but for other high end animation/raytracing software as well. We just were donated 6 SGI Personal Irises, great. ALIAS software is $8000 for each piece. Each piece will only work on 1 particular machine. Most of these software companies use a hardware "key" that enables the software on that machine. This is even how some IBM software works, look at TIPS or Truevision. On top of that you have to pay several thousand dollars per year (I don't have the exact figures in front of me right now) for phone support, plus several thousand more per year just for upgrades!!! This is the same situation for Wavefront. And ALL of these companies ONLY sell direct. And of course, as pointed out above this software is only licenced to you. Hash offers you free upgrades and free software support for a $500 piece of software with really only minimal copy protection (a minor screen stating who bought the software when one module is started). Let's get real here. Lightwave has a $1500 copy protection scheme. Yes, it has been publicly stated that Lightwave will NEVER be available as a standalone package, not because it needs the Toaster, but because the Toaster is Lightwave's copy protection. And Newtek is asking at least $100 for the first software upgrade (2.0). Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents worth. ======================================================================= Sean Schur USENET: schur@isi.edu Assistant Director Amiga/Media Lab Compuserve: 70731,1102 Character Animation Department Plink: OSS259 California Institute of the Arts =======================================================================
roddi@bruce.cs.monash.OZ.AU (Roddi Walker) (06/04/91)
In <NguZ33w164w@bluemoon.uucp> moonhawk@bluemoon.uucp (David Culberson) writes: > Wait. Think about it. Do you think that someone who could AFFORD >to spend $500 on a software product would pirate it? I think not, he would >want the support, the manual, and the tech. help that he gets from buying >the product in the stores. If someone is a pirate, I SINCERELY doubt that >he could afford the $500 that JMAN costs. He wouldn't buy it, even if he >couldn't pirate it. He would do without. Do you think that, just because >someone can >'t copy it off a friend, that the $500 is going to magically appear in his >wallet? Just my experience with pirates is that they couldn't, and >wouldn't buy the SW no matter HOW great the price, or HOW hard the >protection is. These guys THRIVE on protection. Do you honestly think your >protection is so innovative that the thousands of pirates out there can >never break it? And, once it's broken, the unprotected version will spread >like wildfire. No bull. > David I think you underestimate the resources these pirates have. Many groups generate revenue by selling the latest cracked games for $5 a pop. I know a professional pirate (his collection is ~4000 disks of Amiga software) who makes > $1000 a WEEK (no tax, of course) just for selling copies of software at $2 a disk (not including media). Other pirate groups send around their junior members to his house to get disks off him - I have seen a junior members go through the week's new arrivals copying every disk - regardless of the quality/type of software. Just go through a local second-hand ad paper (such as the Melbourne Trading Post) - I guarantee you'll find dozens of advertisements for "the lastest software <titles> for $5 each" in the Computer Section. It's no different on the other side of the fence - my Mac friend (well, acquaintance make that :-) has a copy of Mac software which retails for huge amounts (Page Maker ~ $1000, Pixel Paint Professional ~ $1000). The only way I can see of customising software is to imbed a registration number into the code (something that wouldn't look out of place when disassembled) and sell direct to the user. The software company could then wait for pirate copies to come up (they should be able to get a pirate copy easily as the next guy) and then identify the registration number - giving the identity of the customer it was sold to. Naturally, this registration number would be invisible to the customer. Also, it would do away with the need for nasty programs that are so heavily copy protected that they can't run on fast machine, install on the HD, multitask etc etc. Roddi PS: I have no connection with the above pirate. My only contact with him is to buy hardware (GVP Series II [nice], Epson LQ400 etc) from him.
tope@enea.se (Tommy Petersson) (06/04/91)
In article <VBiX32w164w@graphics.rent.com- bobl@graphics.rent.com (Bob Lindabury - SysAdm) writes: -jason@cbmami.UUCP (Jason Goldberg) writes: - -> When I called your company, all I asked is that you let me break -> even on the product. If you are selling the product for $500 then you have -> to sell it to me for $450 so that I can cover my costs in ordering the -> product, displaying the products, training my staff, etc... and still sell -> the product for $500 so I am competative with you. Its funny that you are -> worried about me undercutting you, because I am worried about you -> undercutting me! It seems all too likely that I buy JMan for $500 and sell -> it to my customers at my loss for $500, only to have you walk around a -> shows saying "JMan costs $500 but if you buy today I can give it to you for -> $450." What I am trying to avoid is spending my time promoting your -> product, only to have my customers go to you and buy it for less. - -I believe your above stated logic is wrong. You do *not* have to -purchase Jman for $450 to cover your costs. I don't know what kind -of business you are running there but it seems to me that if you are -basing your profit on the sale of hardware that is working around the -Jman product, then you can slip in an additional "system" fee and -cover your costs that way. We sell systems to people but when we -talk to them we tell them right up front that if they are shopping -for price, they should look elsewhere. We provide a *complete* -solution to our clients particular needs and that type of service -comes at a premium. We don't sell them a system and itemize each -piece. We quote a solution to them and a cost for that solution. -Since people purchasing he Jman product need much more than a stock -Amiga, it would seem to me that they are going to need the expertise -and knowlegable help of a reputable dealer/VAR. The payback comes in -service and a training program. I suggest that instead of -bellyaching to Wayne about how terrible Hash's pricing structure is, -you rethink how *you* market your systems and come up with a solution. - -After all, $500 for a product like Jman is ludicrous. It should be -going for > $1000 a pop. Would you feel better with a list price of -$1000 and you paying around $800? At that point, you are just -playing the old numbers game where the middlemen win and you lose. - -We charge close to list for everything we put into our systems -because we are supplying the knowhow to the people so that when they -get to thier studio they are not sitting in front of a bunch of -high-priced hardware not knowing which end is up. We provide the -training and procedures our clients need to immediately start -producing on the system. This is where you should be thinking about -making money. Not on margins and quantities. - -What ever happened to customer service in America!? - *** So, following your logic about Journeyman: If Commodore decided to charge you list price for their Amigas, as Hash do, you would still be satisfied? *** --- Bob - - The Graphics BBS 908/469-0049 "It's better than a sharp stick in the eye!" - ============================================================================ - InterNet: bobl@graphics.rent.com | Raven Enterprises - UUCP: ...rutgers!bobsbox!graphics!bobl | 25 Raven Avenue - BitNet: bobl%graphics.rent.com@pucc | Piscataway, NJ 08854 - Home #: 908/560-7353 | 908/271-8878
seanc@pro-party.cts.com (Sean Cunningham) (06/06/91)
In-Reply-To: message from moonhawk@bluemoon.uucp
Hash's "copy protection" isn't exactly what it seems. It's more of a copy
deterent.
If you've got a piece of software with your name and a serial number
plastered into the code, you're not going to be distributing it to your
thief budies.
People pirate $500 software all the time. There's a certain BBS in
California (probubly more than one) that contains almost any title you
could ever want...it's a real shame. If these guys like the Amiga so much,
they sure are doing their best to make sure the software companies kiss it
off because of a bunch of ex-C64 owners (nothing personal about the C64...I
had one and loved using it...but pirating was (is) very heavy on it, and it
wasn't even hidden from{view).
Sean
/\
RealWorld: Sean Cunningham / \ "Doing our business is what
INET: seanc@pro-party.cts.com VISION Amigas are for."
Voice: (512) 992-2810 \ /
// \/ "Holy #@*!" - any Psygnosis
KEEP THE COMPETITION UNDER \X/ GRAPHICS game playerrcj2@cbnewsd.att.com (ray.c.jender) (06/06/91)
In article <4415@bruce.cs.monash.OZ.AU> roddi@bruce.cs.monash.OZ.AU (Roddi Walker) writes: > > >I think you underestimate the resources these pirates have. Many groups >generate revenue by selling the latest cracked games for $5 a pop. I know >a professional pirate (his collection is ~4000 disks of Amiga software) >who makes > $1000 a WEEK (no tax, of course) just for selling copies of >software at $2 a disk (not including media). > Whoaaa. Is this a fact? Why don't you turn this asshole in? Is this against the law where you are from? Even if it is not, something should be don't to discourage this.
ns4@sdcc12.ucsd.edu (Ellisman EM Lab) (06/07/91)
In article <1991Jun3.070812.11563@news.iastate.edu> skank@iastate.edu (Skank George L) writes: > I think a lot of people here may not realize that *much* commerical >software on larger systems, mainframes and workstations particularly, CANNOT >BE BOUGHT! You have to LICENCE it! Take the DEC C compiler for VAX/VMS >systems for example, I've heard that the software licence here at Iowa >State costs $10000 annually, just for the C compiler. We also have COBOL, >BASIC, FORTRAN, and OPS5, which all have similar licences. And that's the >educational price. Some Mentor Graphics software costs $50-100,000 annually! >You should be happy that Wayne SELLS JMan rather than licencing it. > > --George The systems that run such software costs about as much, also. And in limited quantities (ie. much smaller numbers). But the point of the Amiga is a low cost animation station. To sell a product at $500 isn't too bad, considering it could be priced at PC and Mac versions. Plus, from what Wayne has said, he is providing customer support for their products for the price, which licensed products rave. As far as dealer's profits go, if they don't make something of it, they don't carry it. That's why they're in business. Same goes for HASH. True, they don't have to structure their business policies towards themselvs and more towards dealer interaction, but that's their business decision. Whether it works or not is proven later in time. SO LAY OFF!! :^) If anyone doesn't like someone's personal policy, deal with them personally, but don't have a fiasco about it, repeating the same thing over and over on the net. But I have to admit, I like these conversations (flame wars?) :^P