Scott_Busse@mindlink.bc.ca (Scott Busse) (06/21/91)
Donald Richard Tillery writes about how it takes 15 seconds to load an image into the Firecracker... The loading time as I observed it was about 3 to 5 seconds, something I thought was rather fast, compared to the ATVista board loads I have watched. Not animating speeds of course, but 5 seconds is alot less aggravating than 15... -- * Scott Busse email: O O O_ _ ___ ..... * CIS 73040,2114 ||| /|\ /\ O/\_ / O )=| * scott_busse@mindlink.UUCP l | | |\ / \ /\ _\ * scott_busse@mindlink.bc.ca Live Long and Animate... \
jet@karazm.math.uh.edu (J Eric Townsend) (06/21/91)
I'd like to be able to display/edit 24bit images. Here's what I know: DCTV: displays/grabs/edits 24bits in any of the supported graphics modes, is shipping, can be had for around $400. Firecracker: displays/edits in 24bits. Cost around $1000. Shipping? Colorburst: displays in 24bits, cost? shipping? Mimetics framebuffer/grabber: displays/grabs in 24bits, can't edit. cost ~$700. (I used to own one of these, it was just fine for grabbing frames or displaying frames.) What am I missing/incorrect about? I've heard great things about the Firecracker, but don't know anyone who owns one. Is it worth the $$$? How fast can a frame be updated? I'd like to be able to dump 24bit anims in short bursts, not a frame at a time. I'd like to hear from anyone who owns any of these devices. -- J. Eric Townsend - jet@uh.edu - bitnet: jet@UHOU - vox: (713) 749-2126 Skate UNIX! (curb fault: skater dumped) PowerGlove mailing list: glove-list-request@karazm.math.uh.edu
drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Donald Richard Tillery Jr) (06/21/91)
In a message from: usenet@menudo.uh.edu (USENET News System) >I'd like to be able to display/edit 24bit images. Here's what I know: > >DCTV: displays/grabs/edits 24bits in any of the supported graphics modes, >is shipping, can be had for around $400. > Well, not exactly. DCTV is COMPOSITE video and that IS NOT 24 bits. However, if you are going to video (tape), it is a very good choice. It only outputs to composite monitors (the 108x HAVE composite in) (RGB adapter coming RSN), so if you want a true RGB and full 24 bits, this might not be what you are after. Also, DCTV plugs into the RGB port externally and has a pass through for your monitor. If you want to digitize, you must sacrifice your parallel port (where the data comes in), because there is not a pass-through there. Max res is not easy to state since it doesn't use a digital system. It is apparently (to your eye and mine) just slightly less than 768x480. I say less because with high resolution monitors (as opposed to TVs) the image is a bit "unfocussed" looking. Excellent for animations which are done by the Amiga hardware (the DCTV box reinterprets a hi-res picture in its own way so you just animate those hi-res frames - they look like crap without the DCTV - as if you would any hi-res anim). DCTV comes with what quite possibly is the best paint program I've seen (DPaint might beat it in several areas, but DCTV paint gives it a good run for its money). It is only missing an UNDO (coming in a upgrade I understand). > >Firecracker: displays/edits in 24bits. Cost around $1000. Shipping? > Yes, it has been shipping for quite a while (started about $1600) and can be had for as low as $800. The paint program is only partly finished, but seems adequate so far. It IS a full 24 bit board with amazing quality pictures (that can be said for ALL full 24 bit boards). It plugs into the Zorro slot (so it can be used in the 3000), and you can route your video through it for using the Firecracker display as a background (behind your WB or whatever). Max res is 1024x480(no PAL version). Animation is only possible with a single frame recorder. > >Colorburst: displays in 24bits, cost? shipping? > MAST is still waiting on FCC approval to begin shipping NTSC units. PAL units have been shipping for several months. Last week it passed Class A (commercial) and should pass Class B (public) within the next couple of weeks. The cost if you've already got your name on the list (mine is the first on the domestic list) is $499, retail will be $599. It also plugs into the RGB port but gives true 24 bit RGB output at a max res of 768x480(580 PAL). You can under, over, and in-between lay graphics. It will animate in 24 bit planes (and less), but on-board memory is limited so full frame 24 bit animation is only possible with a single frame recorder. Partial 24 bit anim is possible up to 20 fps and 256 color up to 30 fps is possible. It will ship with a very nice paint program. (Shipping as soon as the FCC lets it go) >Mimetics framebuffer/grabber: displays/grabs in 24bits, can't edit. >cost ~$700. (I used to own one of these, it was just fine for >grabbing frames or displaying frames.) > Like you said, not an edit platform. >What am I missing/incorrect about? I've heard great things about What about the Toaster? It will real-time capture 24 bit images, display them, edit them, and comes with the best rendering package available for the Amiga (Oh, NEWTEK, why won't you let the rest of us buy it!?). Cost <$1500. It won't animate without a single frame recorder, but it will do all kinds of fancy video effects in real-time. It outputs composite video (a bit better quality than DCTV). The paint program is a souped up version of Digi-PaintIII but isn't too bad. >the Firecracker, but don't know anyone who owns one. Is it worth I know someone with one, I can ask her any questions you can ask me that I haven't already asked her and can anser any questions you ask that I've already asked her (follow that?). >the $$$? How fast can a frame be updated? I'd like to be able I don't think it's worth the money. After several months of owning it, my friend went out and got DCTV because it had a paint program, captured images and seemed to have more support. She hardly ever uses it any more (probably will use it a bit more as the paint program gets finished). It takes between 5-10 seconds to load an image (Impulse format the quickest, Sculpt format the longest). Not good for animations. >to dump 24bit anims in short bursts, not a frame at a time. Sorry, that's the only way you'll get animation with the Firecracker (so far). > >I'd like to hear from anyone who owns any of these devices. I'll post a full review when I get my ColorBurst (if my money holds out until they ship) and answer any questions then. Rick Tillery (drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu)
jollick@amiglynx.UUCP (Jim Ollick) (06/25/91)
>them, edit them, and comes with the best rendering package available for the >Amiga (Oh, NEWTEK, why won't you let the rest of us buy it!?). Cost <$1500. >It won't animate without a single frame recorder, but it will do all kinds of >fancy video effects in real-time. It outputs composite video (a bit better >quality than DCTV). The paint program is a souped up version of Digi-PaintIII The Toaster Paint program lets you paint in HAM mode only in 1/4 of the screen at a time only. It then renders the picture to the 24 bit display. I have read that many Toaster owners are buying DCTV to paint with and use the Toaster for a display and DVE device.
mark@calvin..westford.ccur.com (Mark Thompson) (06/26/91)
In article <jollick.5522@amiglynx.UUCP> jollick@amiglynx.UUCP (Jim Ollick) writes: >The Toaster Paint program lets you paint in HAM mode only in 1/4 of the screen >at a time only. It then renders the picture to the 24 bit display. I have read >that many Toaster owners are buying DCTV to paint with and use the Toaster for >a display and DVE device. Actually you can paint on the whole image all at once but many of the tools only function in 1/4 screen mode. I do however use DCTV for most of my 24bit painting and only use Toaster Paint when I need to write a 24bit brush (why didn't Digital Creations include this ability?!?!). %~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~% % ` ' Mark Thompson CONCURRENT COMPUTER % % --==* RADIANT *==-- mark@westford.ccur.com Principal Graphics % % ' Image ` ...!uunet!masscomp!mark Hardware Architect % % Productions (508)392-2480 (603)424-1829 & General Nuisance % % % ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
rcj2@cbnewsd.att.com (ray.c.jender) (06/27/91)
In article <62170@masscomp.westford.ccur.com> mark@calvin.westford.ccur.com (Mark Thompson) writes: >In article <jollick.5522@amiglynx.UUCP> jollick@amiglynx.UUCP (Jim Ollick) writes: >>The Toaster Paint program lets you paint in HAM mode only in 1/4 of the screen >>at a time only. It then renders the picture to the 24 bit display. I have read >>that many Toaster owners are buying DCTV to paint with and use the Toaster for >>a display and DVE device. > >Actually you can paint on the whole image all at once but many of the tools >only function in 1/4 screen mode. I do however use DCTV for most of my 24bit >painting and only use Toaster Paint when I need to write a 24bit brush >(why didn't Digital Creations include this ability?!?!). >%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~% >% ` ' Mark Thompson CONCURRENT COMPUTER % >% --==* RADIANT *==-- mark@westford.ccur.com Principal Graphics % >% ' Image ` ...!uunet!masscomp!mark Hardware Architect % >% Productions (508)392-2480 (603)424-1829 & General Nuisance % >% % > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I thought I had a basic understanding of this 24bit business. Using ToasterPaint, if you paint in HAM mode (which is 12 bit, right?), then render it to the Toaster it becomes 24bit. What happens to the other 12 bits? How do you get 24bit out of 12bit???? 12bit is 4096 colors. 24bit is 16million colors. Are the left-over bits padded out? What good is ToasterPaint? Seems it's missing around 16,773,000 colors......
raible@cbmvax.commodore.com (Bob Raible - LSI Design) (06/27/91)
In article <1991Jun26.175454.26359@cbnewsd.att.com> rcj2@cbnewsd.att.com (ray.c.jender) writes: >In article <62170@masscomp.westford.ccur.com> mark@calvin.westford.ccur.com (Mark Thompson) writes: >>In article <jollick.5522@amiglynx.UUCP> jollick@amiglynx.UUCP (Jim Ollick) writes: >>>The Toaster Paint program lets you paint in HAM mode only in 1/4 of the screen >>>at a time only. It then renders the picture to the 24 bit display. I have read >>>that many Toaster owners are buying DCTV to paint with and use the Toaster for >>>a display and DVE device. >> >>Actually you can paint on the whole image all at once but many of the tools >>only function in 1/4 screen mode. I do however use DCTV for most of my 24bit >>painting and only use Toaster Paint when I need to write a 24bit brush >>(why didn't Digital Creations include this ability?!?!). >>%~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~% >>% ` ' Mark Thompson CONCURRENT COMPUTER % >>% --==* RADIANT *==-- mark@westford.ccur.com Principal Graphics % >>% ' Image ` ...!uunet!masscomp!mark Hardware Architect % >>% Productions (508)392-2480 (603)424-1829 & General Nuisance % >>% % >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > I thought I had a basic understanding of this 24bit business. > Using ToasterPaint, if you paint in HAM mode (which is 12 bit, right?), > then render it to the Toaster it becomes 24bit. What happens to > the other 12 bits? How do you get 24bit out of 12bit???? > 12bit is 4096 colors. 24bit is 16million colors. Are the left-over > bits padded out? What good is ToasterPaint? Seems it's missing > around 16,773,000 colors...... > Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but Toaster internal data is not 24bit RGB but rather 16 bit digitized composite. The latter is much more efficient for a box that lacks RGB outputs. The use of HAM mode is a compromise dictated by the underlying AMIGA graphics hardware. You are correct in stating that HAM is limited to 12 bits, but of course this does not necessrily constrain the internal data to 12 bits. Shading and smear type operations could result in a greater number of shades than could be displayed in HAM mode. Of course this is not as good as a paint program that allowed you to paint directly onto the frame buffer itself. I guess this is the point you are trying to make.
bobl@graphics.rent.com (Bob Lindabury - SysAdm) (06/27/91)
jollick@amiglynx.UUCP (Jim Ollick) writes: > The Toaster Paint program lets you paint in HAM mode only in 1/4 of the scree > at a time only. It then renders the picture to the 24 bit display. I have rea > that many Toaster owners are buying DCTV to paint with and use the Toaster fo > a display and DVE device. The above is true. Most professional users I know use DCTV for painting and the Toaster for DVE, CG and 3D. Toasterpaint falls flat on it's face. It is probably one of the *worst* paint packages I have ever seen. I believe it was a stop-gap program that has yet to be replaced with a *real* 24-bit paint package. -- Bob The Graphics BBS 908/469-0049 "It's better than a sharp stick in the eye!" ============================================================================ InterNet: bobl@graphics.rent.com | Raven Enterprises UUCP: ...rutgers!bobsbox!graphics!bobl | 25 Raven Avenue BitNet: bobl%graphics.rent.com@pucc | Piscataway, NJ 08854 Home #: 908/560-7353 | 908/271-8878
James_Hastings-Trew@tptbbs.UUCP (James Hastings-Trew) (06/28/91)
Toaster Paint works with 24 bits internally, and displays a 12 bit "workspace preview" to you while you work. You only get to see what you are "really" working on when you render to the 24 bit buffers. If you think this is lame, you are right. DCTVPaint is not perfect, but it is a whole lot better than ToasterPaint - has more power, and works in real-time on a pretty good representation of 24 bit. Future versions will preserve the true 24 bit data. Right now, DCTV paint makes compromises on the 24 bit files it reads - compromises based on how much information NTSC video can reproduce. Future versions (that require MUCH more memory) will leave the original 24 bit data intact.
mark@calvin..westford.ccur.com (Mark Thompson) (06/28/91)
raible@cbmvax.commodore.com (Bob Raible - LSI Design) writes: >rcj2@cbnewsd.att.com (ray.c.jender) writes: >> I thought I had a basic understanding of this 24bit business. >> Using ToasterPaint, if you paint in HAM mode (which is 12 bit, right?), >> then render it to the Toaster it becomes 24bit. What happens to >> the other 12 bits? How do you get 24bit out of 12bit???? >> 12bit is 4096 colors. 24bit is 16million colors. Are the left-over >Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but Toaster internal data is not >24bit RGB but rather 16 bit digitized composite. The latter is much more >efficient for a box that lacks RGB outputs. The use of HAM mode is a >compromise dictated by the underlying AMIGA graphics hardware. Yes, the Toaster 'frame' format (which I am nearly certain is the format used internally by the hardware) is not in RGB color space but in a 4:2:2 chroma/luma format akin to YUV video. The 4:2:2 represents the sample rate for luminance, chrominance axis 1, and chrominance axis 2 respectively. Each of the three channels are digitized to 8 bit precision (as in 24bit RGB) but since the two chroma channels are at half the sample rate of the luma, the data fits into a 16 bit quantity. Sampling chroma at a frequency equal to luma is unecessary because the extra information would be lost in the composite video output. If you were to take a 24bit IFF and save it in Toaster frame format and then convert it back to 24bit IFF, the colors will bleed past their original boundries when viewed on an RGB frame buffer. DCTV uses a similar approach except its sample rate is half that of the Toaster, hence the degredation in quality. %~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~% % ` ' Mark Thompson CONCURRENT COMPUTER % % --==* RADIANT *==-- mark@westford.ccur.com Principal Graphics % % ' Image ` ...!uunet!masscomp!mark Hardware Architect % % Productions (508)392-2480 (603)424-1829 & General Nuisance % % % ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
neil@celia.UUCP (Neil Richmond) (06/29/91)
I am not I understand the Colorburst device. It claims to be a true 24-bit
display device with 1.5 megs onboard, yet the signal comes through the
RGB port. I was not aware that data could be passed through the RGB port.
Is this possible? If it is, it is not bi-directional, right? DCTV seems to
be a decoder, with the display memory being in the Amiga. This makes sense.
The Colorburst does not. Is there a way to get the data from the Colorburst
into the Amiga? Would it use the parallel port like DCTV? I have worked in
computer graphics for years, but until recently I have never seen such a
strange, yet ingenious assortment of frame buffers as the ones available
for the Amiga. I it's what you get when you have graphics so tightly coupled
to a system. I guess it is whatever works.:-)
neil
--
Only 3109 shopping days left till the next millenium!
Neil F. Richmond INTERNET: celia!neil@usc.edu
Rhythm & Hues Inc. UUCP: ...{ames,hplabs}!lll-tis!celia!neil)kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (06/29/91)
> I am not I understand the Colorburst device. It claims to be a true 24-bit > display device with 1.5 megs onboard, yet the signal comes through the > RGB port. I was not aware that data could be passed through the RGB port. > Is this possible? If it is, it is not bi-directional, right? Right, it's unidirectional. These "outside" devices convert the RGB pixel output of the Amiga hires 16-color screen back into 4-bit values, then usually recombine those nybbles into bytes for further use. Clever. > DCTV seems to be a decoder, with the display memory being in the Amiga. > This makes sense. The Colorburst does not. Yes, that's correct. HAM-E and DCTV both decode and display the Amiga vidram output info in more or less realtime. Colorburst has its own buffer(s), which are updated via the Amiga output. I believe that: HAM-E has its display memory in the Amiga. It directly takes the output, combines it into bytes, decodes into either 256 or "HAM-Extended" colors. Therefore every pixel is displayed "immediately" (in 2 hires pixel time). DCTV also uses the Amiga vidram as its memory, altho pairs of output lines are combined to obtain the full info to display both the lines. That is, each even line contains the even line's luma and 1/2 the chroma info used for both lines; each odd line contains the odd line's luma and the other 1/2 of chroma info to be used for both lines. Colorburst uses the Amiga memory more indirectly... as a transfer buffer. This makes sense, as a 320x200x24-bit image (for example) would require 192K of info. So (in the above case), three Amiga display fields are used to send out first the R, then the G, then the B data. Or other info. But it stores the data in its own display memory. > Is there a way to get the data from the Colorburst into the Amiga? > Would it use the parallel port like DCTV? Umm. No need to. It's just an output device, and the info is already in Amiga memory (or was at the time of transfer :-). > I have worked in computer graphics for years, but until recently I have > never seen such a strange, yet ingenious assortment of frame buffers as > the ones available for the Amiga. I guess it's what you get when you have > graphics so tightly coupled to a system. I guess it is whatever works.:-) Yah. Actually, they could've used the video or bus slots (like Framegrabber and Firecracker). But the common RGB port was appealing, partly because of no card size restrictions, plus it allows easier sales for all Amiga models. It occurs to me that these devices could probably be used on any computer because of the way they attach. For that matter, someone could build a fairly simple output buffer onto a Zorro card, and boost the amount and/or speed of animations through these devices. You'd have to write your own software, of course. best - kev <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>