mpj@sequoia.cray.com (M. P. Johnson) (06/14/91)
Hello World, I am looking for a decent PCB design program for double-sided PCB production. I would like one that directly prints (postscript, plotter and dot-matrix) the finished track layout onto transparencies for direct use on a varnished copper board for subsequent exposure to UV. The package should have intelligent auto-routing and have a comprehensive (or at least user-expandable) library of chip packages. I currently use PCLO (Printed Circuit Layout) but it only has a Benson plotter driver. Postscript would be preferred! (The dot-matrix output available is not suitable for direct use on a PCB) Anyone used IntroCAD ? However I suspect that a general purpose CAD package won't auto-route! Any other recommended packages ? Any help greatly appreciated, thanks.. Marvin.
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (06/15/91)
In article <035643.28501@timbuk.cray.com> mpj@sequoia.cray.com (M. P. Johnson) writes: >I am looking for a decent PCB design program for double-sided >PCB production. I would like one that directly prints (postscript, >plotter and dot-matrix) the finished track layout onto transparencies >for direct use on a varnished copper board for subsequent exposure to UV. >The package should have intelligent auto-routing and have a comprehensive >(or at least user-expandable) library of chip packages. >I currently use PCLO (Printed Circuit Layout) but it only has a Benson >plotter driver. Postscript would be preferred! (The dot-matrix output available >is not suitable for direct use on a PCB) Actually, I'm not sure I would use laser printer output either; you generally want a photoplotter or high resolution laser plotter for PCB output. I guess it's possible to do simple boards with a laser printer, especially if you do the print at 2x. Anyway, there are two current PCB packages for the Amiga: BoardMaster from BlackBelt (a modern derivitive of PCLO), and Pro-Board from Prolific. I would really like a combination of their best features, neither is perfect. Pro-Board is a very basic interactive PCB editor. It reads a standard Calay compatible netlist, and will display either single nets, nets connected to a specific part, or the whole ratsnet, as an aid to placement and routing. There's a point-to-point "autorouter", basically a "route one wire" function, which is pretty bad. It's reasonbly fast and easy to lay down traces by hand, though editing stinks, you pretty much have to rip up the whole trace and start all over again. It will let you make connections not in the netlist without interactive warning, but it will warn ask for a design check. On the down side, the program is very "un-Amiga", you might think you're on a PC when using it. It's plot options are limited to HPGL or Gerber, and it can only handle standard trace boards (one wire between pins), and two or four layers. BoardMaster is weird. I'm still just learning it, but it's weird. The basic BoardMaster program, unlike any PCB layout package I've used on any other system, doesn't learn your netlist. It's 100% manual layout. The editing features seem much better than those of Pro-Board, if a bit harder to get used to. It handles one or two traces between pins, and four layer boards, though it seems much easier to "fool" BoardMaster into working on multilayer boards. It stores each layer as a separate file, and you can have two signal layers being edited at any given time, no reason you can't manually swap stuff in and out. The program is very Amiga-ish, with gadgets, pulldown menus, and AREXX. BoardMaster's big advantage is that it has what Black Belt claims is a full autorouter (I'll let you know in a week or two). The autorouter, as you might imagine, requires a netlist. It's a proprietary netlist, so you'll need to write some kind of netlist conversion utility to take much advantage of this autorouter, Black Belt doesn't supply one (I'm writing a flat EDIF to BoardMaster converter in XLISP). The router apparently can apparently swap pins and gates for layout efficiency, which can be a big plus. There doesn't seem to be any real good way to do a decent placement with BoardMaster, though. You can't get a rats nest for your part, like most PCB layout programs provide, and it doesn't do autoplacement, so you're pretty much left up to your own guesses for placement. With all the AREXX support, it wouldn't surprise me if you could add some kind of rat's nest capability or even run time checks againt a netlist, to bring it up to the level of most others for interactive routine. The problem is, who's got time for that. The autorouter, on the other hand, is worth some time invested; if it's as good as the notes on it imply, though, this will be the PCB package of choice for the Amiga. >Anyone used IntroCAD ? However I suspect that a general purpose CAD package >won't auto-route! Any other recommended packages ? You really don't want to use a generic CAD program if you can help it. The PCB packages, either of them, do the proper design rules enforcements, etc. And they know how to manipulate PCB's, dealing with traces, parts, and all those layers automatically. With a generic CAD program, you'd have to do all of this yourself. And autorouting is impossible without a netlist. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "This is my mistake. Let me make it good." -R.E.M.
bernie@metapro.DIALix.oz.au (Bernd Felsche) (06/17/91)
In <22462@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >Anyway, there are two current PCB packages for the Amiga: BoardMaster from >BlackBelt (a modern derivitive of PCLO), and Pro-Board from Prolific. I would >really like a combination of their best features, neither is perfect. How about posting an article in c.s.a.reviews when you're done checking out both packages? The rest of your article is almost 70% of a review already! I know of one Amiga developer who gave up in disgust after battling with PCLO for a week. He now uses a PeeCee, because he couldn't find the software to run on his Amiga. -- Bernd Felsche, _--_|\ #include <std/disclaimer.h> Metapro Systems, / sold \ Fax: +61 9 472 3337 328 Albany Highway, \_.--._/ Phone: +61 9 362 9355 Victoria Park, Western Australia v Email: bernie@metapro.DIALix.oz.au
billsey@agora.UUCP (Bill Seymour) (06/18/91)
In article <035643.28501@timbuk.cray.com>, M. P. Johnson writes: > I am looking for a decent PCB design program for double-sided PCB production. > I would like one that directly prints (postscript, plotter and dot-matrix) > the finished track layout onto transparencies for direct use on a varnished > copper board for subsequent exposure to UV. The package should have > intelligent auto-routing and have a comprehensive (or at least user- > expandable) library of chip packages. Well, other than the intelligent auto-router, Pro-Board would work for you. Although it doesn't do Postscript, it does do a good job with HPGL plotters and Gerber photoplotters. The components packages can be customized on .001 centers with a fairly wide range of pad sizes, and there are several built-in basic packages also (DIP, SIP, two pin, etc...) > I currently use PCLO (Printed Circuit Layout) but it only has a Benson > plotter driver. Postscript would be preferred! (The dot-matrix output available > is not suitable for direct use on a PCB) You may want to look at BoardMaster then, I believe this is the product PCLO has evolved into. From what I hear (I haven't seen anything close to a current version) it's *much* nicer than it was when it was still being marketed as PCLO. > Any help greatly appreciated, thanks.. > > Marvin. Best place to find Pro-Board/Pro-Net seems to be from Creative Computers, BoardMaster is by Black Belt, don't know where the best prices are... -Bill Seymour nesbbx!billsey@agora.uucp or nesbbx!billsey@agora.rain.com ***** American People/Link Amiga Zone Hardware Specialist NES*BILL ***** Bejed, Inc. NES, Inc. NAG BBS NES BBX BBS Home Sometimes (503)281-8153 (503)246-9311 (503)656-7393 (503)640-9337 (503) 640-0842
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (06/19/91)
In article <1991Jun17.052843.7744@metapro.DIALix.oz.au> bernie@metapro.DIALix.oz.au (Bernd Felsche) writes: >In <22462@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >>Anyway, there are two current PCB packages for the Amiga: BoardMaster from >>BlackBelt (a modern derivitive of PCLO), and Pro-Board from Prolific. I would >>really like a combination of their best features, neither is perfect. >How about posting an article in c.s.a.reviews when you're done >checking out both packages? The rest of your article is almost 70% of >a review already! I actually did write a review of the Pro-Board program for the now-defunct Amiga Sentry many moons ago. My conclusion was, if you're paying for simple boards to be done outside, you can save money starting with the second board if you do it yourself. With BoardMaster at $99, you'll save with the first, but I wouldn't do a very complicated board without a netlist-knowledgable program. It's reasonably simple to write a program that'll extract a netlist from the BoardMaster database, so it's not like you'd be sending something out without electronic verification, it's just not as handy as the automatic method. Anyway, I'll certainly put up my impressions of BoardMaster when I'm done, and most likely, some associated support code. >I know of one Amiga developer who gave up in disgust after battling >with PCLO for a week. He now uses a PeeCee, because he couldn't find >the software to run on his Amiga. I guess it depends on what you want and where you look. I tried (admittedly older versions) of a few popular PC packages, and couldn't find one that ran at an even acceptable speed (on a 16MHz '386SX) or was sufficiently bug-free to be at all useful. I didn't get the lastest of any of these, because it [a] wasn't that big of a deal to have this capability at home, and [b] I'm not paying big bucks just to try one, but a few people around here had older OrCADs and Schemas I could loan for a weekend trial. A $99 program is cheap enough to be wrong about, a $999 program isn't. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "This is my mistake. Let me make it good." -R.E.M.
bernie@metapro.DIALix.oz.au (Bernd Felsche) (06/22/91)
In <22556@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >In article <1991Jun17.052843.7744@metapro.DIALix.oz.au> bernie@metapro.DIALix.oz.au (Bernd Felsche) writes: >>How about posting an article in c.s.a.reviews when you're done >>checking out both packages? The rest of your article is almost 70% of >>a review already! [ some stuff deleted ] >method. Anyway, I'll certainly put up my impressions of BoardMaster when I'm >done, and most likely, some associated support code. Thanks. I'm looking forward to it. -- Bernd Felsche, _--_|\ #include <std/disclaimer.h> Metapro Systems, / sold \ Fax: +61 9 472 3337 328 Albany Highway, \_.--._/ Phone: +61 9 362 9355 Victoria Park, Western Australia v Email: bernie@metapro.DIALix.oz.au