tcapener@watserv1.waterloo.edu (CAPENER TD - ENGLISH ) (06/24/91)
I realise this posting is going to be flame bait, but...
I'm really disappointed with some of the common traits of Amiga applications
software. Obviously, not all Amiga applications share these flaws, but a good
deal seem to. It is the flawed software I'm talking about, not the (IMHO)
well-written software.
1) I haven't found one application yet which takes advantage of the clipboard.
I should be able to draw something in DPAINT 3, put it in the clipboard
and draw it directly into PageSetter II or into HyperBook. Likewise, I
should be able to copy text onto the clipboard from HyperBook and take
it directly into Word Perfect. Come on, we've had the clipboard since
WB 1.3, when are people going to start using the damn' thing?
2) Very few applications use the standard keyboard short-cuts outlined in
the Commodore Amiga OS Libraries and Includes book. When I'm in a paint
or draw program and want bold text I want to hit Amiga-B. When I'm in
any program and want to cut or delete something I want to hit Amiga-X.
This isn't very hard to implement, and (IMHO) programmers who don't do
it are just being lazy.
3) Amiga software does not have a consistent look and feel. I know a lot
of people say that Mac-style interface guidelines cramp creativity and
result in dull programs. I will not argue this point. But, having to
learn a different interface for each program is a real pain. Maybe I'm
just stupid, but I hate having to remember a different set of rules for
every program. At least menus all tend to work the same, but that's about
it. I don't know how many times I've been in Perfect Sound, highlighted
a section and pressed Amiga-D only to erase the entire sample. Very
few programs (even by the same company) offer a similar interface.
And on a second note: the Commodore programming guidelines say that the
best user interface is one the user doesn't even notice is there. Since
when do we need exciting user-interfaces? The kind of excitement that
that CanDo's user-interface gives me is the kind I don't need.
I realize that the above three points are a bit of a tirade, but I
think that the issues are important (IMHO, of course) and need to be discussed.
It's not just me, either. In the latest issue of Byte (which, like it or not
is an authority in the computer world) they had a survey of GUI systems and
one of the major points about AmigaDOS/Intuition was that applications had
and inconsistent look and feel.
I'm not knocking the Amiga, which (again, IMHO) is the best computer platform
at its market level, just offering some hopefully constructive criticism to
make the system all that much better.
Travis Capenerhonp9@menudo.uh.edu (Jason L. Tibbitts III) (06/24/91)
In article <1991Jun23.200930.17561@watserv1.waterloo.edu> tcapener@watserv1.waterloo.edu (CAPENER TD - ENGLISH ) writes: > I realise this posting is going to be flame bait, but... No flames here... >I'm really disappointed with some of the common traits of Amiga applications >software. [...] >1) I haven't found one application yet which takes advantage of the clipboard. > I should be able to draw something in DPAINT 3, put it in the clipboard > and draw it directly into PageSetter II or into HyperBook. Likewise, I > should be able to copy text onto the clipboard from HyperBook and take > it directly into Word Perfect. Come on, we've had the clipboard since > WB 1.3, when are people going to start using the damn' thing? It's been there long before that. My ancient manuals (I think they're pre-1.0) mention the clipboard. In the not so ancient RKM's (1986), the documentation for the Clipboard Device mentions some interesting things. Under 'Clipboard Data' (page 441): "The clipboard tool, which is the application that allows a Workbench user to view a clip, understands only the text (FTXT) and graphics (ILBM) form types." (Without permission) I've seen neither hide nor hair of this mythical tool. What happened? I'm assuming that it was a good idea that never shone in the full light of day. It would be a nice thing to have, though. Maybe it's time for a standard clipboard support package to show up; something like MinREXX did to open up AREXX ports. [More gripes (mainly on interfact style and consistency) deleted] I can't really disagree here, but I think that with the advent ot the Style Guide things might get better. Of course, programmers have tended to ignore Chapter 12 ot the Intuition manual (the one on style) so I guess we'll have to wait and see. >Travis Capener -- Jason L. Tibbitts III | Moderator: comp.sys.amiga.reviews "Blob Shop Programmers:| Send submissions to HONP9@menudo.uh.edu Because We're Bored!" | Check comp.sys.amiga.reviews for submissions Disclaimer: Opinions...| guide, disclaimers, etc. Fnord.
ewilts@janus.mtroyal.ab.ca (Ed Wilts) (06/26/91)
In article <1991Jun23.200930.17561@watserv1.waterloo.edu>, tcapener@watserv1.waterloo.edu (CAPENER TD - ENGLISH ) writes: > 1) I haven't found one application yet which takes advantage of the clipboard. You're not looking very hard... Most text editors (as opposed to work processors), utilize the clipboard. For example, you could cut a section in the demo of TurboText (which doesn't support the Save function), paste it into TxEd, and then save the file. Most Clipboard applications have been restricted to text, not graphics, that I'll agree on... > 2) Very few applications use the standard keyboard short-cuts outlined in Agreed. Some programmers just haven't learned that because we have a windowing interface, that the keyboard is obsolete. There is a definite advantage to being able to utilize BOTH keyboard and mouse. > This isn't very hard to implement, and (IMHO) programmers who don't do > it are just being lazy. Yup. > I realize that the above three points are a bit of a tirade, but I > think that the issues are important (IMHO, of course) and need to be discussed. What do you think the RESULT of the discussion will be? I believe that a lot of programmers know what should be done, especially those that frequent Usenet. To those, this discussion is a waste of time. Those that don't frequent Usenet won't benefit. WE know what we want; they don't. If you really want to help, refuse to buy (support) a product that doesn't meet your requirements. If everybody did that, the developers would listen. > Travis Capener -- .../Ed Preferrred: Ed.Wilts@BSC.Galaxy.BCSystems.Gov.BC.CA Ed Wilts Alternate: EdWilts@BCSC02.BITNET (604) 389-3430 B.C. Systems Corp., 4000 Seymour Place, Victoria, B.C., Canada, V8X 4S8
phil@phd.UUCP (H Phil Duby) (06/27/91)
In article <1991Jun23.200930.17561@watserv1.waterloo.edu> tcapener@watserv1.waterloo.edu (CAPENER TD - ENGLISH ) writes: > I realise this posting is going to be flame bait, but... > > I'm really disappointed with some of the common traits of Amiga applications > software. Obviously, not all Amiga applications share these flaws, but a good > deal seem to. It is the flawed software I'm talking about, not the (IMHO) > well-written software. > > 1) I haven't found one application yet which takes advantage of the clipboard. > I should be able to draw something in DPAINT 3, put it in the clipboard > and draw it directly into PageSetter II or into HyperBook. Likewise, I > should be able to copy text onto the clipboard from HyperBook and take > it directly into Word Perfect. Come on, we've had the clipboard since > WB 1.3, when are people going to start using the damn' thing? Try a few other programs. ExpressPaint uses, and has used for some time, the clipboard for graphics. Excellence! uses the clipboard for both graphics and text. > 2) Very few applications use the standard keyboard short-cuts outlined in > the Commodore Amiga OS Libraries and Includes book. When I'm in a paint > or draw program and want bold text I want to hit Amiga-B. When I'm in > any program and want to cut or delete something I want to hit Amiga-X. > This isn't very hard to implement, and (IMHO) programmers who don't do > it are just being lazy. You don't like it, then only buy software that follows the rules YOU do like. Convice enough people to do this, (assuming they agree with your selections), and programmers/publishers will change real fast <grin>. [... next complaint and summary deleted ...] My second comment could be considered flame bait as well, but the first is <hopefully> informative. There ARE available Amiga programs that use the clipboard. You just have to find them. If there are features of your current <no clipboard> programs that you MUST have <and not in the clipboard supporting programs>, then do without clipboard support. If the clipboard is important enough to you, then switch. I feel somewhat the same about AREXX support (though it has not been around as long as the clipboard). I make a point of trying to only get software packages that support it. Others may not <and probably don't> care. Vote with your wallet. > Travis Capener H. Phil Duby uunet!keyword!calgary!ajfcal!mtroyal!phd!phil (AMiga Users of Calgary) AMUCexpress BBS - 650 meg PD Software Fido net node 1:134/27 (403) 282-5137/5171/5224/5238 3/12/24/24 MNP bps
tcapener@watserv1.waterloo.edu (CAPENER TD - ENGLISH ) (06/28/91)
In article <phil.7996@phd.UUCP>, phil@phd.UUCP (H Phil Duby) writes: > In article <1991Jun23.200930.17561@watserv1.waterloo.edu> tcapener@watserv1.waterloo.edu (CAPENER TD - ENGLISH ) writes: > > Try a few other programs. ExpressPaint uses, and has used for some time, > the clipboard for graphics. Excellence! uses the clipboard for both > graphics and text. > > You don't like it, then only buy software that follows the rules YOU do > like. Convice enough people to do this, (assuming they agree with your > selections), and programmers/publishers will change real fast <grin>. > > [... next complaint and summary deleted ...] > > My second comment could be considered flame bait as well, but the first is > <hopefully> informative. There ARE available Amiga programs that use the > clipboard. You just have to find them. If there are features of your > current <no clipboard> programs that you MUST have <and not in the > clipboard supporting programs>, then do without clipboard support. If the > clipboard is important enough to you, then switch. > > I feel somewhat the same about AREXX support (though it has not been around > as long as the clipboard). I make a point of trying to only get software > packages that support it. Others may not <and probably don't> care. Vote > with your wallet. > > H. Phil Duby uunet!keyword!calgary!ajfcal!mtroyal!phd!phil > (AMiga Users of Calgary) AMUCexpress BBS - 650 meg PD Software > Fido net node 1:134/27 (403) 282-5137/5171/5224/5238 3/12/24/24 MNP bps This is good advice, but a little impractical for me. I can't just go around plunking down $60-$200 for new applications all the time--and software producers don't always include all the little features on the boxes or in ads. Magazine reviews are good for aleviating this, but magazines don't get around to reviewing products all that fast and don't review all products. Finally, I was not pointing out my own situation exclusively. The industry (Amiga industry) as a whole needs a good dose of standardization (IMHO) and that was what I was getting at. You wonder why the market doesn't take the Amiga seriously? Part of it is the ignorance we all say it is, but more importantly, (IMHO) is that the Amiga market just isn't serious. A lot of applications programmers are off following their own drummer, convinced that their own particular view of the world is best, writing programs with ideosyncratic interfaces and ignoring system conventions like the clipboard. Sure, word processors and text editors all have clipboard support and rougly standard interfaces, but the DTP programs don't. The paint programs don't. The hypermedia programs sure as hell don't. One more thing, if I'm not going to buy software that doesn't live up to my (arguably high standards) then there are things (like hypermedia) that I'm just not going to be able to do on the Amiga--and where does that leave me? Do I go out and get a Mac or a PC and grind my teeth while I use it? Or do I bitch and complain until someone listens? Look, I know that this is just my opinion (which I'll admit doesn't count for much) but I work with all three major computer platforms and I see what the other markets are doing and there are some good things going on there. The Amiga is the best hardware platform around, but the software, by and large--and excluding video, is primitive compared to stuff on the Mac and PC. BTW, I'm not just bitching on the net but writing the software companies, too. I've sent out a bunch of letters but its not just me that's going to cause changes to happen. Another poster asked me what I was hoping to accomplish with these posts (implying that posting to the net was useless). I'm not really sure, but hell, if people can talk about disemboweling cats on alt.evil then I can bitch about software here. Maybe I might start giving people ideas who otherwise might not have thought about it. That sounds really pretentious, I know, but what else am I supposed to say? If you agree with me then maybe you'll write the software companies, too. Having worked for a software company myself, I know that they often just attribute loss of sales to piracy and hardly ever say to themselves "hey, maybe people just aren't buying my product because it's not very good." Travis Capener
sdl@lyra.mitre.org (Steven D. Litvintchouk) (06/30/91)
In article <1991Jun28.160813.11224@watserv1.waterloo.edu> tcapener@watserv1.waterloo.edu (CAPENER TD - ENGLISH ) writes: > Finally, I was not pointing out my own situation exclusively. The industry > (Amiga industry) as a whole needs a good dose of standardization (IMHO) and > that was what I was getting at. You wonder why the market doesn't take > the Amiga seriously? Part of it is the ignorance we all say it is, but more > importantly, (IMHO) is that the Amiga market just isn't serious. You're right about that, but the lack of standardized interfaces isn't the main symptom of this. > A lot of > applications programmers are off following their own drummer, convinced that > their own particular view of the world is best, writing programs with > ideosyncratic interfaces and ignoring system conventions like the clipboard. Many, perhaps most, IBM PC software had idiosyncratic interfaces (and no cut/paste across applications) prior to windowing systems like Microsoft Windows. Even now these applications aren't as standardized as those on the Mac. Yet IBM PC's outsell Macs and Amigas by wide margins. The "seriousness" of IBM PC software is due to three things: 1. Availability of IBM PC clones, so that you can buy PC software and shop for computers by price. 2. Attention to the quality that business people want. This includes easy to follow installation instructions, training courses (especially important for secretaries and clerical people who aren't programmers), etc. 3. A dealer network that knows how to cater to the needs of business. This means segregating the kids with the arcade games away from areas where serious discussions about business needs can take place with business executives who are potential customers. It also means dealers that are fluent in business needs: networking, databases, laser printers, film recorders, etc. While some (not all) Amiga dealers are familiar with video technology, they usually aren't familiar with these other things that make up a complete solution. 4. Supporting the Amiga in a PC-dominated (or Mac-dominated) environment. This means networking, software filters that can convert between Microsoft Word/Mac and ProWrite/Amiga, converting among PageMaker and Professional Page, etc. (I've given up hope that we'll ever see Microsoft Word itself ported to the Amiga.) -- Steven Litvintchouk MITRE Corporation Burlington Road Bedford, MA 01730 Fone: (617)271-7753 ARPA: sdl@mitre-bedford.arpa UUCP: ...{att,decvax,genrad,ll-xn,philabs,utzoo}!linus!sdl "Those who will be able to conquer software will be able to conquer the world." -- Tadahiro Sekimoto, president, NEC Corp.
sbeagle@kennels.actrix.gen.nz (Thomas Farmer) (07/01/91)
tcapener@watserv1.waterloo.edu (CAPENER TD - ENGLISH ) writes: > In article <phil.7996@phd.UUCP>, phil@phd.UUCP (H Phil Duby) writes: > > In article <1991Jun23.200930.17561@watserv1.waterloo.edu> tcapener@watserv1 > > > > Try a few other programs. ExpressPaint uses, and has used for some time, > > the clipboard for graphics. Excellence! uses the clipboard for both > > graphics and text. > Finally, I was not pointing out my own situation exclusively. The industry > (Amiga industry) as a whole needs a good dose of standardization (IMHO) and > that was what I was getting at. You wonder why the market doesn't take > the Amiga seriously? Part of it is the ignorance we all say it is, but more > importantly, (IMHO) is that the Amiga market just isn't serious. A lot of > applications programmers are off following their own drummer, convinced that > their own particular view of the world is best, writing programs with > ideosyncratic interfaces and ignoring system conventions like the clipboard. > Sure, word processors and text editors all have clipboard support and rougly > standard interfaces, but the DTP programs don't. The paint programs don't. > The hypermedia programs sure as hell don't. To a large extent I agree with you. However, things are not as bad as they seem. Think of a clipboard on a PC. Now, would you store the graphics in GIF? PCX? IFF? EPS? MSP? IMG? or one of the versions of TIFF? (I've missed a few too.) One nice thing about the Amiga when it comes to moving stuff around is that we have IFF for graphics and sound with ASCII for text. Using these standard formats, I use the RAM disk as a clipboard and just save and load. I admit it isn't quite is nice, but it does work. I've used this quite happily with such diverse programs as Amigavision, Deluxe Paint, Digipaint, PIXMate, Cygnus-Ed, Professional Page, and countless PD stuff. sbeagle@kennels.actrix.gen.nz aka Thomas Farmer Ph.+64-4-796306 "Apricot sometimes wished she lived in as ordinary a household as did her neighbours; though the more she considered the neighbours the less ordinary they seemed. ... perhaps all the normal people lived down another street?" Darcy's Utopia - Fay Weldon