xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (01/17/91)
tron1@tronsbox.xei.com (Kenneth Jamieson) writes: > Ok, well, with the A3000out in the world, all the specs now known. I > think it is more than time to start talking about the A3500 (or would > it be the A4000 ?) Which is a topic specifically meant to be isolated to c.s.a.advocacy; please _start_ such discussions there, and save the rest of the groups the pain of moving them. > In the long tradition of c.s.a I will expect this to get very spirited > and look forward to all the rumors and wish lists (1/2 ;-) Which is why it should be in .advocacy, and not the groups you chose. Those of us interested in participating in such discussions are already running a permanent floating net.riot in .advocacy; do join the fun. > Actually, I am not trying to stir up trouble here, but I was thinking > the other day abou this topic. My development env here is bogging > down, and my choice is to spend approx 1800$ now and get a '486 MB or > wait and get a A3000/UX. A posting that both points to a future path for the Amiga and suggests that any other piece of trash has a hope of acting as a sop until you get an Amiga is an _excellent_ and 100% guaranteed way to stir up trouble; use some sense! > But I just cant justify the expense of a A3000/UX for >UNIX< > development over a '486 IN MY CASE because I would need a entire > A3000/UX as opposed to just a '486 MB. Tell someone who cares. I call that throwing good money after bad. > So I started thinking, "Ok, get the '486 now and start saving for the > NEXT generation Amiga, or a A3000/UX and a Toaster when they make it > fit." .. but what WILL be the next generation Amiga ?? "Next" is not a word we like to hear around here a lot, either. > Ok... on to the rumors... Heeeeere's Kenny.....: > I have heard that (from the rumors guy at our users group) (Actually, > they are such logical changes that they should be true) > 1) The A3500 will be a tower case with 6-8 slots. Probably. > 2) The A3500 will be sized to fit a Toaster. The _A3000_ was sized to fit a Toaster; it isn't Commodore's fault that Newtek didn't employ anyone competent to read an engineering drawing, and made a card that wouldn't fit the perfectly well delimited space allowed. Screw 'em; let Newtek fix their own engineering gaffes. > These have been alternately mentioned for a "A3500" or "A4000" so I'll > list em here... > 3) A possible '040 at > 25 MHZ Probably the best you can do. Yawn. Wake me up when you can do that at 100 MHz with memory fast enough to keep up. > 4) New 256 or 4096 color modes (640x400 or better) Far too little imagination; if CBM is going to keep a lock on the Video market in the face of the fast oncoming competition, without an adequate advertising budget, then there _must_ be a stock 24bit color system _from CBM_. If you can't suck them in with advertising bullshit, you have to actually blow the competition out of the water with technical merit. > 5) Standard ethernet ? (rumored workstation configuration) Depends a lot on your intended market; if you are still targeting the high end home market, then ethernet is a bull-nipple as a standard feature for 90% of your market, and should probably be left out to reduce the base price; if you only intend to sell into the workstation market, then you are going to have to jack the machine speed up to outcompete the R6000 class machines, and the cost of ethernet is going to disappear into the noise level compared to the cost of the whole unit, so you might as well toss it in to help you compete on techinical merit. If you're competing in this market, you'd better be striving for 1280x1024 resolution as well, or you'll keep being seen as a toy vendor. > My WISH LIST would start as follows... > 1) Commodore to embrace C++ as the new standard in the way they did > with C. Gag! Follow comp.std.c++. The C++ language is rapidly going the way of Ada -- too damned complicated and counterintuitive to be used for anyone of less than deific competence. Like Ada, C++ has incomprehensible identifier visibility rules, bizarre separate compilation interactions, and adds poor compromises between upward compatibility with C and object oriented programming support, baroque inheritance rules, et ad nauseum cetera. > 2) The better video modes. Keen plan; that's what CBM's been about. The hardware is in place, it is unclear to what extent software support/compatibility has been accomplished. I'm not the least bit thrilled with a monitor technology that seems to paint the screen in quadrants, though; that tremendously complicates the "draw after the scanline is passed" schemes to support BOB motion without double buffering overhead or screen trash from uncoordinated blits. > 3) A standard >3< button mouse. Looks like it will be crucial for AmigaUnix to be used smoothly with the existing software base; it would be nice to see it hacked in to become a standard part of AmigaOS, but that implies that the A3000 should ship with a three button mouse, and the user community will need to upgrade or to have a keypress that emulates the middle mouse button. > Hehehe -- have fun! Sure, but there's a playground for this kind of stuff; please use it. Deliberately starting a thread like this _away_ from .advocacy is just being hostile to the c.s.a.* community. /// It's Amiga /// for me: why Kent, the man from xanth. \\\/// settle for <xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us> \XX/ anything less? -- Convener, COMPLETED comp.sys.amiga grand reorganization.
hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) (01/18/91)
In article <1991Jan17.050949.11038@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: [...lotsa stuff deleted...] :> 2) The A3500 will be sized to fit a Toaster. : :The _A3000_ was sized to fit a Toaster; it isn't Commodore's fault that :Newtek didn't employ anyone competent to read an engineering drawing, and :made a card that wouldn't fit the perfectly well delimited space allowed. :Screw 'em; let Newtek fix their own engineering gaffes. From all the reports I have read, NewTek designed the Toaster to fit in just about every available bit of the space allowed. It is the A3000 that is slightly smaller than what was specififed for the A2000's video slot. The blame lies with Commodore as NewTek followed the rules. Then again, it doesn't really matter in the long run. The Toaster may be the thing to put the Amiga on the map finally. To take a "Screw 'em" attitude to one of thier MAJOR products is just plain stupid. Commodore's Big Wigs apparrently agree as was mentioned in a report in both AmigaWorld and .INFO after they had gone to Kansas to see the Toaster in action. They felt it was important to the future of the Amiga. [....lots more deleted....] :> Hehehe -- have fun! : :Sure, but there's a playground for this kind of stuff; please use it. :Deliberately starting a thread like this _away_ from .advocacy is just :being hostile to the c.s.a.* community. Some of us still do not recieve the new newsgroups such as .advocacy and therefor can not post to them. -Moriland -- | hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu | __ | | | __/// Viva Amiga! | | Founder Of: Evil Young | \XX/ | | Mutants For A Better Tomorrow | "Single Tasking: JUST SAY NO!" |
tron1@tronsbox.xei.com (Kenneth Jamieson) (01/18/91)
In article <1991Jan17.050949.11038@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >Kent, the man from xanth. \\\/// settle for ><xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us> \XX/ anything less? >-- >Convener, COMPLETED comp.sys.amiga grand reorganization. Actually, it has seemed to me that .advocacy was just the place to shout silly names at people. As I HAD actually hoped to have a discussion with a POINT I deliberately avoided that group. I will, however, respect the followup line and put the thread over there and not worryt about it. Just as a point, will ANY discussion of Amiga abilities and futures be relegated to the "riot" of unreasonable flaming in .advocacy???? I happen to feel that these topics deserve a little better than that. -- ========[ Xanadu Enterprises Inc. Amiga & Unix Software Development]======= = "I know how you feel, you don't know if you want to hit me or kiss me - = = --- I get a lot of that." Madonna as Breathless Mahoney (Dick Tracy) = =========== Ken Jamieson: uunet!tronsbox.xei.com!tron1 =================== = NONE of the opinions represented here are endorsed by anybody. = === The Romantic Encounters BBS 201-759-8450(PEP) / 201-759-8568(2400) ====
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (01/18/91)
In article <4708@vela.acs.oakland.edu> hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) writes: >In article <1991Jan17.050949.11038@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: >:The _A3000_ was sized to fit a Toaster; it isn't Commodore's fault... >From all the reports I have read, NewTek designed the Toaster to fit >in just about every available bit of the space allowed. It is the >A3000 that is slightly smaller than what was specififed for the >A2000's video slot. The blame lies with Commodore as NewTek followed >the rules. Guess again. NewTek designed the Toaster to fit in just about all the space that was THERE. That being considerably more space than was _allowed_. They did the same thing for the Toaster connectors, which occupy much more space than was permitted for connectors. The A500/A2000 Technical Reference Manual has a specification for a Video Slot card, indicating the maxium supported size and the space connectors may occupy on the card's edge. Really, we considered the configuration that get in the A3000 long before any 2000s actually shipped. The A2000 video slot configuration has always been considered a problem. The card edge there isn't the kind designed to support connectors, it's one of these screw-in panels used in PCs as a place to bolt on extra connectors that don't fit on the back of a normal card. Also, the A2000 casework puts drives and hardware in the way of the card, and provides no support for it in the front of the case. So the Video Slot physical card specification was drafted with movement to a normal type slot configuration fully in mind. Just like with software, you can only tell the hardware people what the rule are, you can't force them to follow the rules. >Commodore's Big Wigs apparrently agree as was mentioned in a >report in both AmigaWorld and .INFO after they had gone to Kansas to >see the Toaster in action. They felt it was important to the future of >the Amiga. I think it's pretty clear that the Toaster is an important product for the Amiga. >| hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu | __ | -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "Don't worry, 'bout a thing. 'Cause every little thing, gonna be alright" -Bob Marley
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (01/19/91)
tron1@tronsbox.xei.com (Kenneth Jamieson) writes: > Actually, it has seemed to me that .advocacy was just the place to > shout silly names at people. As I HAD actually hoped to have a > discussion with a POINT I deliberately avoided that group. No, .advocacy is working about as expected; lots of stupid name calling, but also quite a bit of reasoned discussion and good technical information being exchanged. It's just that this kind of discussion is not at all interesting to people trying to leaen how to use the Amiga's they have _now_, and also inevitably spawns subthreads in which people have long lost their tempers, so a separate place has been provided to hold such discussions, however innocently they begin. > I will, however, respect the followup line and put the thread over > there and not worry about it. Thank you, the whole of c.s.a.* will be the better for it if everyone does likewise; almost none of .misc so far is appropriate to .misc, folks are still having trouble getting used to the idea of taking the trouble to target postings to the appropriate groups. > Just as a point, will ANY discussion of Amiga abilities and futures be > relegated to the "riot" of unreasonable flaming in .advocacy???? I > happen to feel that these topics deserve a little better than that. I hope all are relegated to this "riot"; lots of CBM folks participate here, and "discussion" seems inevitably to turn to advocacy at the drop of a hat. If you want to talk about what the Amiga should be rather than what it is, .advocacy is the place. It really isn't all that bad, so far, and the other groups are already better for having this discussion here. Kent, the man from xanth. <xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us>
farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) (01/19/91)
hastoerm@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Moriland) writes: >The blame lies with Commodore as NewTek followed the rules. No, no, NO! NewTek designed the Toaster to use all the space in an A2000. This happened to be more space than the Commodore engineering drawings said would be allowable. Any card designed TO COMMODORE'S SPECS will fit into an A3000 nicely - NewTek ignored the specs, and broke the rules. Not Commodore. NewTek. -- Mike Farren farren@well.sf.ca.us
ttt@convex.cl.msu.edu (tommy t thornton) (01/20/91)
I think something VERY important to add on the "new" 3500 would be internal 1.44 high density drive w/ electronic eject buttons. Thus making it Mac and MS-DOS compatibile (similar to what the new Mac Superdrives do) and the electronic eject will stop the "eject me while I'm still writing to the disk" problem that alot of Amiga users fall victim to. For that matter at 3500 mmight\as well use the extended density 2.88 meg drives like on the NeXT. especially if you want to break into the workstation environment. -t3
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (01/21/91)
In article <15797@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> cleland@sdbio2.ucsd.edu (Thomas Cleland) writes: > but PLEASE keep a button on the drive itself. My largest Mac > peeve (I have several ;*)) is that I can't remove a disk > without pleading on my knees to the OS (which may well be > busy doing something else like downloading) or getting out > my little bent-up paperclip. Of course this wouldn't, barring crashes, be a problem with the Amiga. The O/S is unlikely to be "busy doing something else". -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) (01/23/91)
In article <7560@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >In article <15797@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> cleland@sdbio2.ucsd.edu (Thomas Cleland) writes: >> but PLEASE keep a button on the drive itself. My largest Mac >> peeve (I have several ;*)) is that I can't remove a disk >> without pleading on my knees to the OS (which may well be >> busy doing something else like downloading) or getting out >> my little bent-up paperclip. > >Of course this wouldn't, barring crashes, be a problem with the Amiga. The >O/S is unlikely to be "busy doing something else". It also isn't a problem on the Mac. Unless the machine has crashed, you can eject any floppy at any time by typing command-shift {1,2, or 0}. If you crash, all you need to do is hold down the mouse button during boot and the Mac will eject all diskettes from all the 3.5" drives. The only time the paperclip trick is need is during a harware failure, and the utility is questionable even there. If the hardware problem is due to a jammed diskette or the read head of the drive being mis-positioned, forcing the floppy out could do even more damage.
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (01/23/91)
In article <15794@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> cleland@sdbio2.ucsd.edu (Thomas Cleland) writes: >To the best of my knowledge, NewTek exceeded Commodores >specifications (as opposed to available space). They wouldn't >be the only company to do so. That's true. >CBM made the 3000 pretty close to minimum specified size, That's not true. The video card specifications let you build a card no longer than 210mm. The A3000's video card, being in-line with a Zorro III slot, can be 337.19mm long. It turns out, if you build the longest card that can be crammed into an A2000 video slot, you're just a little (my guess, looking at my 2000 here, is about 20-30mm) over the size the A3000 will physically allow. Connector space on the video card is specified for an 84mm region, out of something slightly less than 114mm you might be able to cram onto the back of the card (leaving screw clearance, of course). The A3000/ZorroII/ZorroIII end connector leaved 93.75mm of space for connectors. >Not that that's really an issue now. I have heard that >Toaster's in the A3000 (hanging out the back...) It would hang out the front, and you might have to chop a little A3000 case to fit all the connectors in the back. > // / Thom Cleland / It is easier / -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "What works for me might work for you" -Jimmy Buffett
rwm@atronx.OCUnix.On.Ca (Russell McOrmond) (01/26/91)
In a message posted on 22 Jan 91 18:43:43 GMT,
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) wrote:
DH>>Not that that's really an issue now. I have heard that
DH>>Toaster's in the A3000 (hanging out the back...)
DH>
DH>It would hang out the front, and you might have to chop a little A3000 case to
DH>fit all the connectors in the back.
It does not hang out at all - It is no length problem at all (My theory is that
this was a roomer started by newtek to avoid people trying to put Toasters
in A3000's and finding the OTHER problems). The only Physical problem is one of the
first Video Input being 'HIGHER' (Well, more towards the side of the machine in
the A3000) than there is space for. If one 'Cuts' a bit out of the casing, all will
fit quite easily.
*** Thus VOIDING any warranty on the Machine ***
Which is why it is not done (Unless you are willing to take FULL responsibility
for the machine).
There are a few minor electrical and timing problems, but this isn't the place
for this. Suffice to say that this HAS been done to a few machines by myself,
and it works quite well.
---
Opinions expressed in this message are my Own. I represent nobody else.
Russell McOrmond rwm@Atronx.OCUnix.On.Ca {tigris,alzabo,...}!atronx!rwm
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