kdarling@hobbes.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (02/11/91)
In <1991Feb10.211625.24078@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> in amiga.hardware rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: | [much quoting deleted] | Here is where the controversy starts. With all this "superior" hardware | CD-I must be expensive. Perhaps almost $2000. Good thinking, but no :-). See, there's a reason CDTV is priced at $1000: that's the long-planned introductory price of most CD-I units. Background: 2 or 3 years ago when RAM and hardware costs were much higher, Sony/Philips intended to subsidize early buyers by selling at an intro price of $999.99, even tho it should be more. But costs have since dropped. Also, it was originally planned that CD-I players would fall to around $450 within a couple of years of intro... and I suspect that's even more true now. In addition, Motorola has committed to creating new CD-I chipsets. | Commodore has stated that they are awaiting the MPEG standard Everyone is :-). Virtually all will be using that for full-motion video. CD-I players using preliminary versions have already been demo'd, I hear. |Another thing people are overlooking is that CD-I has to compete |with DVI which both IBM and Apple are going to support. No, the markets are different. CD-I is for standalone units, DVI is intended as a personal computer addon. There will be some minor crossover, perhaps. Apple doesn't like CD-I partly because it relies on a multitasking OS, and it's not theirs ;-). The other beef was that it was based on a 68000. In any case, you won't see Apple trying to do a CDTV-like thing; they're smart enough to stay out of a mass-consumer-market feature/price war. Also, while we're here, <AXN100@psuvm.psu.edu> adds in another article: | If C= can get some market share before CD-I comes out, and | then licence the technology to others, it will succeed. If CDTV had come out last fall as first announced, it might have gotten some kind of market share; altho the original prophecy that "a hundred" discs would also be ready by then, was humorous. Good titles take huge amounts of work. As for licensing... license to whom???! Nobody is left! ;-). | These units are probably for the Japanese home market, and only marginally | affects what will happen here in the U.S.. Wow. We must live on different planets :-). Seriously, the first units will be intro'd in Japan, and then hit the US shortly thereafter. As for the Beta/VHS comparisons -- understandable, as that's about the only handy historical comparison; but it's pretty invalid in this case. This time we have the _creators_ of CDROM and CD-A issuing another new global standard, CD-I. Not following it is akin to creating your own one-off, inferior DAT standard. The marketplace won't like it. Also keep in mind: Sony and Matsushita bought up Columbia, MCA, CBS, etc. Guess why? They _own_ the rights to a huge amount of raw material now. They've also implemented US groups to do R&D on interactive software over radio, TV, and ISDN. Someone jokingly said "juggernaut". You were right. Finally, back to rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) and the _real_ crux: | Commodore has a lot of elbow room in the options to market CDTV. It | could be the video-game hit of the century, or a 'cheap' alternative. THAT is the key: to find a niche for CDTV. It won't be the cheap alternative. It's also extremely unlikely that it would succeed as a $1000 video game. However, its main (only?) strong point is that it's supposedly "easy" to create homebrew titles on normal Amigas. This is really where discussion should center: the non-mass-consumer markets. But it's tricky: For example, I once suggested that with a future Amiga/WORM drive, an educator could create discs for use on CDTV players in a classroom... then someone shot that down by asking why a school would buy $1000 _players_, instead of, say, a bunch of more capable CDROM-equipped A500's. Thoughts?? Regards - kevin <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>
AXN100@psuvm.psu.edu (02/11/91)
kdarling@hobbes.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) Writes: [stuff... deleted] >If CDTV had come out last fall as first announced, it might have gotten some >kind of market share; altho the original prophecy that "a hundred" discs would >also be ready by then, was humorous. Good titles take huge amounts of work. >As for licensing... license to whom???! Nobody is left! ;-). How about RCA, Zenith, ect.. I don't seem to recall that all of the home electronic compaines deciding upon a format. I think most sit out and see which is more accepted by the consumers. If CDTV can grab some marketshare quickly, others will join in. >| These units are probably for the Japanese home market, and only marginally >| affects what will happen here in the U.S.. >Wow. We must live on different planets :-). Seriously, the first units >will be intro'd in Japan, and then hit the US shortly thereafter. My point is that what succeeds in Japan is not guranteed to succeed In the U.S.. Mark seems to think that everything introduced from Japan will succeed here, and that is just not the Case. >As for the Beta/VHS comparisons -- understandable, as that's about the >only handy historical comparison; but it's pretty invalid in this case. >This time we have the _creators_ of CDROM and CD-A issuing another new >global standard, CD-I. Not following it is akin to creating your own >one-off, inferior DAT standard. The marketplace won't like it. Speaking of introducing new formats talk to Phillips about their new DAT standard. But all of this is a moot point since there really is no "standard", just several compaines at the starting line. >Also keep in mind: Sony and Matsushita bought up Columbia, MCA, CBS, etc >Guess why? They _own_ the rights to a huge amount of raw material now. >They've also implemented US groups to do R&D on interactive software ove >radio, TV, and ISDN. Someone jokingly said "juggernaut". You were right This is the one thing I forgot to put in the post. This is the biggest obsticle to CDTV. Unless, C= can get software from big houses, CDTV will not work. Still there are still several independent entertainment co. still left. >It's also extremely unlikely that it would succeed as a $1000 video game ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is just a side point, but I recently was looking in Babbages (A software store, mainly viedo game software), and they had this new video game, I think it was named Neo Geo. Well anyway, it costs $600 for the console, and $400 for each game. The games, all five them, looked neat, until I saw the price. So it is a possiblity. > Regards - kevin <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu> P.S. Thanks for moving this to advocacy. I like a boob posted twice and forgot to redirect it. Ajai
kdarling@hobbes.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (02/12/91)
AXN100@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > How about RCA, Zenith, etc.. I don't seem to recall that all of the > home electronic companies deciding upon a format. I think most > sit out and see which is more accepted by the consumers. If CDTV can > grab some marketshare quickly, others will join in. Thanks Ajai! I couldn't think of anyone. RCA and GE developed DVI originally, spent lotsa $$, and sold it to Intel. So they're probably on the sidelines for a while. I can't recall offhand if Zenith is getting into this area. The key questions are: 1) would CBM license their Amiga chips? 2) would they even be competitive in price and features? Both are very doubtful. > My point is that what succeeds in Japan is not guranteed to succeed > In the U.S.. Mark seems to think that everything introduced from > Japan will succeed here, and that is just not the Case. Yes, you're right. The difference with CD-I is that it's a joint effort; people in many countries worked on it, including many companies in the US. One reason for bringing up the Japanese companies is that their backing will mean mass availability, advertising, feature and price competition. So it's not a case of Japanese intro, but one of having their mass support. These companies intend to make CD-I players as common in homes as VCRs. > But all of this is a moot point since there really is no "standard", > just several companies at the starting line. MB was correct (and so are you) that the potential success/failure of any kind of new interactive-TV device cannot yet be predicted for sure. The recent hype about multimedia helps; the current recession does not :-(. As you indicated, we're all guessing right now. Still, the odds are worse for CDTV: CD-I has overwhelming support, has had hundreds of million$ in R&D since 1986, and has superior base hardware. It can be expanded into a home computer, will be available as handhelds, and will drop in price at a rate CDTV could not possibly match. Ironic sidenote: I think the CD-I video is what a 1990 Amiga should've had. My guess is that CBM came up with CDTV for several reasons. It was fairly easy to do, using existing Amiga stuff. CD-I might still get delayed. It brought good/free advertising. But most importantly, it provided a quick bootstrap into having some CDROM apps written/ported to the Amiga <=. IMO, Commodore was/is not counting on CDTV to succeed as a consumer item. If it did, great. Otherwise, they _still_ gained a starting point for future Amiga-specific CDROM sales, sources, and support. A good move! I think that most of us would be far happier with CDROM drives/discs for our current Amiga computers, rather than apps for a $1000 standalone player. Or put another way: most people are going to want the CD-I player anyway, so why not buy IT for the living room, and an Amiga/CDROM computer elsewhere? Thanks for your thoughts, btw. I've been thinking about this home I-TV for several years; good to hear other opinions. - kev <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>