peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (02/05/91)
In article <1991Feb1.160317.27931@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> griffin@eecae.uucp (Danny Griffin) writes: > Commodore will offer 2 models of the machine. The 3000UX-B, which retails > for $5499, comes with 4 MB of fast RAM and a 100- MB hard drive. THe > 3000UX-D, priced at $6999, comes with 8 MB of fast RAM and a 200-MB hard > drive. OK, everyone who was telling me "sure, it'll be priced to beat the NeXT"... how are they gonna sell this sucker at this price point? -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (02/06/91)
In article <7709@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >In article <1991Feb1.160317.27931@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> griffin@eecae.uucp (Danny Griffin) writes: >> Commodore will offer 2 models of the machine. The 3000UX-B, which retails >> for $5499, comes with 4 MB of fast RAM and a 100- MB hard drive. THe >> 3000UX-D, priced at $6999, comes with 8 MB of fast RAM and a 200-MB hard >> drive. > >OK, everyone who was telling me "sure, it'll be priced to beat the NeXT"... >how are they gonna sell this sucker at this price point? Maybe its because those are LIST prices. Everytime someone compares the A3000 to the NeXT, they always compare the 040 NeXT to the 030 Amiga, and the EDUCATIONAL price of the NeXT to the LIST price of the Amiga! Talk about an unfair comparision.... Besides, I believe Howard Diamond posted the A3000UX-B costs below $4000 for institutions. Remember, when comparing the NeXT, the A3000UX not only gives you ATT UNIX, it also gives you Amiga/AmigaDOS/Color and all those awesome games! 2 Machines in 1. I don't wish to start another NeXT vs Amy war (the last one lasted for months!) I just want to point out, if you compare the NeXT, use a model that has an 030, some color, and the ability to expand! >-- >Peter da Silva. `-_-' ><peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
torrie@cs.stanford.edu (The Ghost Who Walks) (02/06/91)
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >In article <1991Feb1.160317.27931@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> griffin@eecae.uucp (Danny Griffin) writes: >> Commodore will offer 2 models of the machine. The 3000UX-B, which retails >> for $5499, comes with 4 MB of fast RAM and a 100- MB hard drive. THe >> 3000UX-D, priced at $6999, comes with 8 MB of fast RAM and a 200-MB hard >> drive. >OK, everyone who was telling me "sure, it'll be priced to beat the NeXT"... >how are they gonna sell this sucker at this price point? Ha ha ha... Yeah, just what I was thinking Peter. If you really want a laugh, you should have kept archives of all the A3000UX messages about two to three months ago... Isn't it strange how all that pre-release "price" information was SO FAR OFF? Remember the Byte article for "approx $4000"? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu "I like you Bob, you've got balls." - Lord Edmund Blackadder
torrie@cs.stanford.edu (The Ghost Who Walks) (02/06/91)
rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >In article <7709@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >>In article <1991Feb1.160317.27931@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> griffin@eecae.uucp (Danny Griffin) writes: >awesome games! 2 Machines in 1. I don't wish to start another NeXT vs Amy >war (the last one lasted for months!) I just want to point out, if you compare >the NeXT, use a model that has an 030, some color, and the ability to expand! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This comparison is impossible. NeXT doesn't make 030 colour boxes. Besides, as far as I know, you can no longer buy an 030 NeXT at all (unless you're looking at BusinessLand clearance sales). -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu "I like you Bob, you've got balls." - Lord Edmund Blackadder
n177ac@tamuts.tamu.edu (Daryl Biberdorf) (02/06/91)
In article <1991Feb5.220132.21422@Neon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (The Ghost Who Walks) writes: >peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > >>In article <1991Feb1.160317.27931@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> griffin@eecae.uucp (Danny Griffin) writes: >>> Commodore will offer 2 models of the machine. The 3000UX-B, which retails >>> ... >>OK, everyone who was telling me "sure, it'll be priced to beat the NeXT"... >>how are they gonna sell this sucker at this price point? > > Ha ha ha... Yeah, just what I was thinking Peter. If you really >want a laugh, you should have kept archives of all the A3000UX >messages about two to three months ago... Isn't it strange how all >that pre-release "price" information was SO FAR OFF? Remember the >Byte article for "approx $4000"? > The last figure I heard was $5k for an 8MB/100MB model. That's not too far off from the $5499 mark for the 4MB/100MB list price. As for how they're gonna sell it against an 040 NeXT at $5k, I'd imagine they'll push the fact that the 3000 has EXPANSION capability, COLOR, an ACCEPTED version of UNIX (NeXT's Mach implementation is apparently nonstandard enough to cause lots of porting agony), a second operating system (AmigaOS), and a system architecture that can still perform well with an 030 (030 NeXTs are slugglish, to put it mildly). The NeXT has bundled apps and built-in Ethernet, but some people would question the value of the complete works of Shakespeare on a low-end workstation. (:personal_opinion. I think both the NeXT and the 3000 are good values, but I'd be willing to bet the 3000 gets wider acceptance in less time than the NeXT, due primarily to its System V operating system and the style-without-substance perception of the NeXT:personal_opinion_off) --Daryl Biberdorf, n177ac@tamuts.tamu.edu
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (02/06/91)
In article <1991Feb5.220132.21422@Neon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (The Ghost Who Walks) writes: > Ha ha ha... Yeah, just what I was thinking Peter. If you really >want a laugh, you should have kept archives of all the A3000UX >messages about two to three months ago... Isn't it strange how all >that pre-release "price" information was SO FAR OFF? Remember the >Byte article for "approx $4000"? Yeah, so why are you laughing? The LIST price is way up there. The EDUCATIONAL price, which will be near the street price, is slightly under $4,000 for the A3000UX-B to institutions. > >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu >"I like you Bob, you've got balls." - Lord Edmund Blackadder -- Ethan Q: What's the definition of a Quayle? A: Two right wings and no backbone.
CXW148@psuvm.psu.edu (02/06/91)
Yes, there are CD-ROM drives for the Amiga, but the better bet is the Tahiti Rewritable Optical drive that stores *one gigabyte* of memory, and is therefore a better option for a machine potentially expandable to a few gigabytes. By the way, an internal CD-ROM drive costs about $550, while the Tahiti rewritable optical drive weighs in at a price of ten internal CD-ROMs at only $5500. A neat piece of technology, but hardly economical for a machine like the Amiga. (Think about a Unix-bundled A3000 with this drive.....about $10000 for a system!)
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (02/06/91)
In article <1991Feb6.005537.7551@Neon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (The Ghost Who Walks) writes: >es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > >> Yeah, so why are you laughing? The LIST price is way up >>there. The EDUCATIONAL price, which will be near the street >>price, is slightly under $4,000 for the A3000UX-B to institutions. > > And quite a bit more to individuals I believe... > Does this include a 1100 x 800 17" grayscale monitor? > Does it include the tape drive which you'll need if you ever want to >update your software?? (Why on earth Commodore doesn't go CD-ROM is >beyond me. Are there ANY CD-ROM drives for the Amiga?) > The price was $4,279 I believe to individuals, which is close to the $4,000 reported in Byte. It doesn't appear to include monitor or tape drive. However both are available. As well, Xetec makes a CD-ROM for the Amiga and Commodore will be, essentially, whenever CD-TV starts shipping. >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu >"I didn't get where I am today without knowing a good deal when I see one, > Reggie." "Yes, C.J." -- Ethan Q: What's the definition of a Quayle? A: Two right wings and no backbone.
torrie@cs.stanford.edu (The Ghost Who Walks) (02/07/91)
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > The price was $4,279 I believe to individuals, which is >close to the $4,000 reported in Byte. Since when has Byte started quoting educational prices? >It doesn't appear to >include monitor or tape drive. However both are available. At what cost? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu "I like you Bob, you've got balls." - Lord Edmund Blackadder
dtiberio@csserv2.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (02/07/91)
In article <1991Feb6.005537.7551@Neon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (The Ghost Who Walks) writes: >es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > >>In article <1991Feb5.220132.21422@Neon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (The Ghost Who Walks) writes: >>> Ha ha ha... Yeah, just what I was thinking Peter. If you really >>>want a laugh, you should have kept archives of all the A3000UX >>>messages about two to three months ago... Isn't it strange how all >>>that pre-release "price" information was SO FAR OFF? Remember the >>>Byte article for "approx $4000"? > >> Yeah, so why are you laughing? The LIST price is way up >>there. The EDUCATIONAL price, which will be near the street >>price, is slightly under $4,000 for the A3000UX-B to institutions. > > And quite a bit more to individuals I believe... > Does this include a 1100 x 800 17" grayscale monitor? > Does it include the tape drive which you'll need if you ever want to >update your software?? (Why on earth Commodore doesn't go CD-ROM is >beyond me. Are there ANY CD-ROM drives for the Amiga?) > Your lucky if you got a grayscale monitor! I here its better than 24 bit NTSC video boards! :) Tape drives are NOT necessary to update software. Obviously, all you have to do is copy all of your applications to disk (of course people will also have original copies of their commercial software). Backups only require files that actually CHANGE over its lifetime. My DeluxePaint III is the same as the day I got it, so backing it up once a week does me no good. Then again, their are tape drives and VCR drivers available for the amiga. Yes, of course there are CD ROMS for the Amiga, as well as optical drives. I can name CDTV (CD ROM), and the Xetec CD ROM. I think $600 is a good price for the Xetec CD ROM drive, but then again, I only use 10 megs of software anyway... >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu >"I didn't get where I am today without knowing a good deal when I see one, > Reggie." "Yes, C.J." DavidTiberio SUNYStonyBrook2-3605 AMIGA TotoProductions DDDMEN
barrett@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Dan Barrett) (02/07/91)
In article <1991Feb6.005537.7551@Neon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (The Ghost Who Walks) writes: >es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: >> Yeah, so why are you laughing? The LIST price is way up >>there. The EDUCATIONAL price, which will be near the street >>price, is slightly under $4,000 for the A3000UX-B to institutions. >>In article <1991Feb5.220132.21422@Neon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (The Ghost Who Walks) writes: > And quite a bit more to individuals I believe... $4274 for individuals, $3724 for institutions. But note that the NeXT prices are higher too unless your institution buys them in quantity and resells them (a process that NeXT encourages). We can buy NeXTstations (8 MB RAM, 100 MB disk, ethernet) for $3,220, but only because a nearby university bought hundreds and is reselling them. Not bad at all. But on the other hand, a NeXT with a disk this small is useless to me. (On the other hand, a 100 MB Amiga is very usable.) If you want a bigger disk, the price jumps to $4,888 (340 MB). And you can't upgrade the RAM -- you have to throw out the RAM you have and replace it with bigger chips. (Amiga allows 18 MB on the motherboard, and can address 1.7 GB RAM.) > Does this include a 1100 x 800 17" grayscale monitor? No, an 800x600 14" color multisync monitor. And you don't have to buy the monitor if you want a bigger one. Want color on a NeXT? Price jumps to $5,587 and your disk shrinks to 100 MB again. If you want both color and disk, it jumps to $7,683. These prices are ALL educational discount prices from a bulk institutional purchase. > Does it include the tape drive which you'll need if you ever want to >update your software?? I don't know. The NeXTstation doesn't. Neither do DECstations, SPARCstations, RS/6000's, .... >Are there ANY CD-ROM drives for the Amiga?) Yes. Disclaimer: I like the Amiga and the NeXT. Dan //////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ | Dan Barrett, Department of Computer Science Johns Hopkins University | | INTERNET: barrett@cs.jhu.edu | | | COMPUSERVE: >internet:barrett@cs.jhu.edu | UUCP: barrett@jhunix.UUCP | \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////////////////////
dtiberio@csserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (02/08/91)
In article <7498@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU> barrett@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Dan Barrett) writes: >In article <1991Feb6.005537.7551@Neon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (The Ghost Who Walks) writes: >>es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > > $4274 for individuals, $3724 for institutions. > > But note that the NeXT prices are higher too unless your institution >buys them in quantity and resells them (a process that NeXT encourages). We >can buy NeXTstations (8 MB RAM, 100 MB disk, ethernet) for $3,220, but only >because a nearby university bought hundreds and is reselling them. Not >bad at all. > But on the other hand, a NeXT with a disk this small is useless to >me. (On the other hand, a 100 MB Amiga is very usable.) If you want a >bigger disk, the price jumps to $4,888 (340 MB). And you can't upgrade the >RAM -- you have to throw out the RAM you have and replace it with bigger >chips. (Amiga allows 18 MB on the motherboard, and can address 1.7 GB RAM.) > >> Does this include a 1100 x 800 17" grayscale monitor? > > No, an 800x600 14" color multisync monitor. And you don't have to >buy the monitor if you want a bigger one. Want color on a NeXT? Price >jumps to $5,587 and your disk shrinks to 100 MB again. If you want both >color and disk, it jumps to $7,683. These prices are ALL educational >discount prices from a bulk institutional purchase. > Yeah, and I heard that NeXT charges $100 more for the surge protector, $250 for the mechanical mouse, and $80 for a mouse pad! (Just a Montgomery Grant joke). :)
CXW148@psuvm.psu.edu (02/08/91)
Just a side note about storage space, but has anyone seen the rewritable
optical drives available thru Bri-wall mail order? I recall seeing the Tahiti
rewritable optical drive for the Amiga (most likely available for other
machines as well) which has a storage capacity of 1 Gigabyte. But you pay for
that storage, too. This drive was listed at a price of $5500.
Chris Winward
userid CXW148 on PSUVMicsu8053@ming.cs.montana.edu (Craig Pratt) (02/08/91)
In article <1991Feb5.173151.12089@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >In article <7709@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >>In article <1991Feb1.160317.27931@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> griffin@eecae.uucp (Danny Griffin) writes: >>> Commodore will offer 2 models of the machine. The 3000UX-B, which retails >>> for $5499, comes with 4 MB of fast RAM and a 100- MB hard drive. THe >>> 3000UX-D, priced at $6999, comes with 8 MB of fast RAM and a 200-MB hard >>> drive. >> >>OK, everyone who was telling me "sure, it'll be priced to beat the NeXT"... >>how are they gonna sell this sucker at this price point? > Maybe its because those are LIST prices. Everytime someone compares >the A3000 to the NeXT, they always compare the 040 NeXT to the 030 Amiga, and >the EDUCATIONAL price of the NeXT to the LIST price of the Amiga! Talk >about an unfair comparision.... Actually, the LIST price of the NeXTstation IS $4995. Currently, this includes a 200MB drive, 8 MB RM, Lotus Improv and version 2.0 of the system software, not to mention the MegaPixel display. The educational price for this system ranges from $3300 to $3900 depending upon the educational reseller. Even if the NeXT came with a 68030 instead of a 68040, it would be a better deal. It is fair to compare the two machines. > Besides, I believe Howard Diamond posted the A3000UX-B costs below $4000 >for institutions. Remember, when comparing the NeXT, the A3000UX not >only gives you ATT UNIX, it also gives you Amiga/AmigaDOS/Color and all those >awesome games! 2 Machines in 1. I don't wish to start another NeXT vs Amy >war (the last one lasted for months!) I just want to point out, if you compare >the NeXT, use a model that has an 030, some color, and the ability to expand! This is rediculous. Computers are not necessarilly compared because they have equivilant features but because they are targeted for the same market. A *fair* comparison will help the buyer determine which computer better fits their needs. Let the comparisons continue. I'm sure many people here are having difficult time deciding which will be their next computer purchase. -- /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// | Craig Pratt _ icsu8053@cs.montana.edu / | Montana State University, Bozeman ( )Craig.Pratt@msu3.oscs.montana.edu / |_____________________________________/ \__________________________________/
rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (02/08/91)
In article <3455@dali> icsu8053@ming.cs.montana.edu (Craig Pratt) writes: >In article <1991Feb5.173151.12089@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > >This is rediculous. Computers are not necessarilly compared because they >have equivilant features but because they are targeted for the same market. >A *fair* comparison will help the buyer determine which computer better >fits their needs. Let the comparisons continue. I'm sure many people here >are having difficult time deciding which will be their next computer >purchase. Fine. I still think the $3300 040 Slab is a dumb comparison. 100mb HD, Monochrome, and BSD Unix. The only thing that makes it stand out is the 040. The 3000UX can provide a Megapixel display with the A2024 monitor. With the 3000UX, you get Color, ATT Unix, and Expansion capabilities. The Slab is a closed machine from what I hear. If the 3000 had an 040, the Slab wouldn't be a comparison, since Display Postscript will easily drag the system performance down more than ATT UNIX will. I've seen 030 NeXT's and they are SLOW! It takes an 040 just to make the machine usuable. When I originally read about the NeXT a year or two ago, I thought 'Awesome, a machine for the 90s, pushing the LCD of hardware from floppies up to CDs, and providing a DSP with Voice Mail.' Then the CD drive was removed, the unit was still over $10,000 and SPARCs were getting cheap. Now the slab is sorta like the A500 is to the A2000. I don't need to run Unix, but if I had too, I'd have my eyes set on a SparcStation. Also, the new Pen based computers are looking nice (for on-the-go computing). With computers evolving faster than people can keep track, I doubt any computer can claim to be 'state of the art' anymore. >-- > /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > | Craig Pratt _ icsu8053@cs.montana.edu / > | Montana State University, Bozeman ( )Craig.Pratt@msu3.oscs.montana.edu / > |_____________________________________/ \__________________________________/
swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) (02/09/91)
In article <1991Feb8.133703.4810@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >In article <7498@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU>, barrett@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Dan Barrett) writes: >> And you can't upgrade the >> RAM -- you have to throw out the RAM you have and replace it with bigger >> chips.(Amiga allows 18 MB on the motherboard, and can address 1.7 GB RAM.) > >Hmm? If you >want to upgrade Amiga's memory while the slots are full, you have to >throw small SIMMs away, too! Mr. Jalkio, you don't know what you are talking about. The A3000 is upgradeable to 18 Mbytes on the motherboard, no slots are used or needed for this upgrade. No simms are used or needed. You take the 1Mbyte of ram out of the normal memory section of the motherboard and stick it in the display ram area with the other Meg that is already there (the machine comes with 1 meg 'chip ram' and 1 meg of 'fast ram'). This upgrades your 'chip ram' to 2 Mbytes. Then you take up to 16 Mbytes of 1Mx4 bit drams (in 4 Mbyte increments) and you plug the discrete chips into the empty sockets provided by Commodore on the motherboard. You now have 18 Mbytes. That is all there is to it. There is no need to "throw small SIMMs away". There aren't any in there. -- _. --Steve ._||__ DISCLAIMER: All opinions are my own. Warren v\ *| ---------------------------------------------- V {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; swarren@convex.com
mitroo@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Varun Mitroo) (02/09/91)
In article <1991Feb5.220132.21422@Neon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (The Ghost Who Walks) writes: >peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > >>In article <1991Feb1.160317.27931@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> griffin@eecae.uucp (Danny Griffin) writes: >>> Commodore will offer 2 models of the machine. The 3000UX-B, which retails >>> for $5499, comes with 4 MB of fast RAM and a 100- MB hard drive. THe >>> 3000UX-D, priced at $6999, comes with 8 MB of fast RAM and a 200-MB hard >>> drive. > >>OK, everyone who was telling me "sure, it'll be priced to beat the NeXT"... >>how are they gonna sell this sucker at this price point? > > Ha ha ha... Yeah, just what I was thinking Peter. If you really >want a laugh, you should have kept archives of all the A3000UX >messages about two to three months ago... Isn't it strange how all >that pre-release "price" information was SO FAR OFF? Remember the >Byte article for "approx $4000"? > The NeXTstation with 68040, 100 meg drive, 8 megs RAM, 2.8 meg floppy drive costs: $3299 at the campus computer store. This is the EDUCATIONAL price. List price is $4995. It's unfair to compare the NeXTstation with the 3000UX, but not because one has an '040. One is still vapor now. I can go to the computer store today and pick up a NeXTstation. They have one in stock, and the color stations are officially starting shipment next week. When is the 3000UX going to be available??? By the way, how fast is the 3000UX running X? You can boot up a NeXT without the windowing stuff. It does things like 'ls' very fast. Why don't you try comparing this to an amiga? >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu >"I like you Bob, you've got balls." - Lord Edmund Blackadder
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (02/09/91)
In article <1991Feb8.192647.25510@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu> mitroo@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Varun Mitroo) writes: >List price is $4995. > >It's unfair to compare the NeXTstation with the 3000UX, but not because one >has an '040. One is still vapor now. I can go to the computer store today >and pick up a NeXTstation. They have one in stock, and the color stations >are officially starting shipment next week. When is the 3000UX going to be >available??? > Check your facts. The 3000UX is shipping. That has been known for about 2-3 weeks. >By the way, how fast is the 3000UX running X? You can boot up a NeXT without >the windowing stuff. It does things like 'ls' very fast. Why don't you try >comparing this to an amiga? > Of course, X is always an add-on. It doesn't load X unless you tell it. -- Ethan Q: What's the definition of a Quayle? A: Two right wings and no backbone.
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (02/09/91)
In article <1991Feb1.160317.27931@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> griffin@eecae.uucp (Danny Griffin) writes: > 3000UX-B, $5499, 4 MB RAM, 100 MB disk > 3000UX-D, $6999, 8 MB RAM, 200 MB disk In article <7709@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > OK, everyone who was telling me "sure, it'll be priced to beat the NeXT"... > how are they gonna sell this sucker at this price point? In article <1991Feb5.173151.12089@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > Maybe its because those are LIST prices. The NeXTstation lists for $4995. > Everytime someone compares > the A3000 to the NeXT, they always compare the 040 NeXT to the 030 Amiga Because those are the machines they sell. You were happy enough comparing the 68000 Amiga to the 80286 IBM-PC. > , and > the EDUCATIONAL price of the NeXT to the LIST price of the Amiga! The Educational price of the NeXT is $3600. What is the educational price of the Amiga. > Besides, I believe Howard Diamond posted the A3000UX-B costs below $4000 > for institutions. How much below? -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (02/09/91)
Look, all this price twiddling is very interesting but it doesn't answer the question: how does Commodore plan on selling the A3000UX against competition from the NeXT... a machine that lists less, sells for less, has more features, and actually has a bunch of applications that run under UNIX? If you want to run AmigaOS (like me) a 3000/16 or even a 500 is a hell of a lot better value. Just what does Amiga UNIX provide that other commodity UNIXes don't? What is its mission? I hope it has one. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of getting an A3000UX. In fact I'm trying to talk my boss into getting it or a NeXT... anything but a 386 box. I've far too much experience with the agony of getting a good 386 UNIX box together. So what is the mission of the A3000UX? Why is it better than the less expensive NeXT? Color isn't it, that's for sure. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
griffin@frith.uucp (Danny Griffin) (02/10/91)
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >So what is the mission of the A3000UX? Why is it better than the less expensive >NeXT? Color isn't it, that's for sure. For one thing you *can* run AmigaDOS also. To me that alone is enough. If you were only going to run AmigaDOS or only going to run UNIX then maybe you wouldn't want the A3000UX, although people who have used the NeXT on a regualr basis say it is slow. I wonder why Commodore isn't slapping their name on someone's 16" color monitor? -- Dan Griffin griffin@frith.egr.msu.edu
cleland@sdbio2.ucsd.edu (Thomas Cleland) (02/10/91)
>>> Ha ha ha... Yeah, just what I was thinking Peter. If you really >>>want a laugh, you should have kept archives of all the A3000UX >>>messages about two to three months ago... Isn't it strange how all >>>that pre-release "price" information was SO FAR OFF? Remember the >>>Byte article for "approx $4000"? > >> Yeah, so why are you laughing? The LIST price is way up >>there. The EDUCATIONAL price, which will be near the street >>price, is slightly under $4,000 for the A3000UX-B to institutions. > > And quite a bit more to individuals I believe... > Does this include a 1100 x 800 17" grayscale monitor? > Does it include the tape drive which you'll need if you ever want to >update your software?? (Why on earth Commodore doesn't go CD-ROM is >beyond me. Are there ANY CD-ROM drives for the Amiga?) > For God's sake, are you in college or what? Some information is very easy to obtain (such as hardware availability), some poorly-understood information is easy to figure out (such as the difference between list prices, educational prices, and street prices), and some information is unfathomable (such as why some people seem to have little bette to do than lurk in foreign newsgroups and wait to leap somewhat childishly upon an expressed dissatisfaction by a user). This kind of tripe has no business being posted, it's a waste of other people's time and money. But to answer you--yes, there are Amiga CD-ROM drives. CBM is getting heavily into CD-ROM technology starting with CDTV. If you can't tolerate color and must have greyscale, you could get a Commodore A2024 "Hedley" monitor in lieu of the 1950. It's 1008x800 (sure gonna miss those extra 92 pixels...). Big, too. Commodore's not desperate--Amigas and other machines have a broad user base of highly disparate interests. NeXT isn't desperate either, I don't think, but their user base is/will be substantially narrower (home/office/technical versus technical), which should be a cause for concern for them. Two wishes: 1) People who should know better look up information rather than try to parlay their ignorance into an asinine flame. Asking on the net is fine, of course, but be civilized! 2) People stop saying "object-orientated", and say "object-oriented" instead, like in English. >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu >"I didn't get where I am today without knowing a good deal when I see one, > Reggie." "Yes, C.J." -- // / Thom Cleland / It is easier / // / tcleland@ucsd.edu / to get forgiveness / \X/ / ASOCC * Amiga Users' Group at UCSD / than permission... / \____________________________________\____________________/
cleland@sdbio2.ucsd.edu (Thomas Cleland) (02/10/91)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy Subject: Re: A3000UX at UniForum? Summary: Expires: References: <1991Feb1.160317.27931@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> <7709@sugar.hackercorp.com> <1991Feb5.173151.12089@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> <3455@dali> Sender: Reply-To: cleland@sdbio2.ucsd.edu (Thomas Cleland) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: University of California, San Diego Keywords: NeXT list price educational >> Maybe its because those are LIST prices. Everytime someone compares >>the A3000 to the NeXT, they always compare the 040 NeXT to the 030 Amiga, and >>the EDUCATIONAL price of the NeXT to the LIST price of the Amiga! Talk >>about an unfair comparision.... > >Actually, the LIST price of the NeXTstation IS $4995. Currently, this >includes a 200MB drive, 8 MB RM, Lotus Improv and version 2.0 of the system >software, not to mention the MegaPixel display. The educational price for >this system ranges from $3300 to $3900 depending upon the educational reseller. >Even if the NeXT came with a 68030 instead of a 68040, it would be a better >deal. It is fair to compare the two machines. > >>I just want to point out, if you compare >>the NeXT, use a model that has an 030, some color, and the ability to expand! > >This is rediculous. Computers are not necessarilly compared because they >have equivilant features but because they are targeted for the same market. >A *fair* comparison will help the buyer determine which computer better >fits their needs. Let the comparisons continue. I'm sure many people here >are having difficult time deciding which will be their next computer >purchase. > Because I was quite rude to a recent, misinformed NeXT zealot (who richly deserved it), I think I need to regain moderation by lauding a Good Post of the same fundamental nature as the one I flamed. Confirmable facts. Civil and intelligent. Not necessarily pro- or anti- anything. Thanks for posting. BTW, I think the most common cries of "unfair comparison" are benchmark related. It is unfair to compare '040 to '030 in this way. It is fair to laud NeXT for having an '040 box first (Amiga CPU slot cards notwithstanding). >-- > /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > | Craig Pratt _ icsu8053@cs.montana.edu / > | Montana State University, Bozeman ( )Craig.Pratt@msu3.oscs.montana.edu / > |_____________________________________/ \__________________________________/ -- // / Thom Cleland / It is easier / // / tcleland@ucsd.edu / to get forgiveness / \X/ / ASOCC * Amiga Users' Group at UCSD / than permission... / \____________________________________\____________________/
davewt@NCoast.ORG (David Wright) (02/10/91)
In article <1991Feb6.193608.17592@Neon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (The Ghost Who Walks) writes: > Since when has Byte started quoting educational prices? Are you forgetfull or just stupid? (I think the latter). If you actually READ the article (which I doubt), it clear stated that the price WAS the educational price, and that this was a PREVIEW, *not* a REVIEW. Since up until recently the only way you could get a 3000UX was to be either a student or a certified developer (who get better prices), the "about $4000" was correct and quite accurate. In fact, back when they reviewed it the machine came with slightly less memory for that same price then it does now. > At what cost? Certainly less than the cost of upgrading (oops you can't do that) the mono NeXT Station to color. After all, even ignoring the rediculous comparison of an '030 machine to an '040 machine, just which machine are you saying beats the 3000UX's value? Certainly not the color system, and I don't think ANY mono system that can't be upgraded compares to a color system that gives you the choice of three basic video displays (normal Amiga for 700+x500+ (or 1000x800/960, if you only want 4 colors), the 1024x1024 mono monitor, or the 1024x1024x256 color (out of 16m) TARGA display standard on many other computer systems), without losing your investment in hardware. Just what are you going to do with a mono NeXT Station if you later find out you need color? The 3000UX doesn't seem expensive now, does it. I find it funny that not one person I know who I would consider even slightly above normal in computer literacy is interested in the NeXT, and most of the people that I know who were considering it changed their minds when they found out about the upgrade prices, non-standard Unix, slow display speed, using the host CPU to do the job of the printer, lack of expandability, and lack of total machines sold. I mean come on, there are only just over 15,000 NeXTs (of all models) in the US. What kind of market is that? Dave
torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) (02/10/91)
cleland@sdbio2.ucsd.edu (Thomas Cleland) writes: >> And quite a bit more to individuals I believe... >> Does this include a 1100 x 800 17" grayscale monitor? >> Does it include the tape drive which you'll need if you ever want to >>update your software?? (Why on earth Commodore doesn't go CD-ROM is >>beyond me. Are there ANY CD-ROM drives for the Amiga?) >For God's sake, are you in college or what? Actually, I'm attending a university. >Some information is very easy to obtain (such as hardware >availability), some poorly-understood information is easy to >figure out (such as the difference between list prices, >educational prices, and street prices), and some information is >unfathomable (such as why some people seem to have little bette >to do than lurk in foreign newsgroups and wait to leap somewhat >childishly upon an expressed dissatisfaction by a user). Well this is comp.sys.amiga.advocacy... ^^^^^^^^ Usually the best source of information is the net... Am I no longer allowed to ask questions about topics which interest me? Is this some new form of censorship? I was simply asking some questions, which were (to my knowledge), unanswered by the "press release" posted to the net. For example, nowhere does it mention anything about a monitor - yet, many people, including yourself seem to assume that the price includes a colour monitor. My question about CD-ROM may have been better phrased... perhaps "I am surprised that Commodore hasn't chosen CD-ROM as a distribution mechanism, given that most of the other heavyweights in the computer industry seem to be going that route". Once again, this question was inspired by unanswered questions in the posted article, which had words to the effect that "An optional tape unit will be required for upgrades of the operating system". >Two wishes: >1) People who should know better look up information rather than >try to parlay their ignorance into an asinine flame. >Asking on the net is fine, of course, but be civilized! I was trying to be... apologies if you feel I wasn't. >2) People stop saying "object-orientated", and say >"object-oriented" instead, like in English. Yes, this bugs me as well... Two more questions (if you deign to answer them): Has any independent body (who can post to the net) gone out and bought one of these A3000UXs which have been available for 3 weeks? Does the version of X use the custom chips for graphics acceleration, or is it relying solely on the 68030? Disclaimer: I neither own, nor intend to buy a NeXT. I am interested in Commodore's intended market for the A3000UX. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu "If it weren't for your gumboots, where would you be? You'd be in the hospital, or in-firm-ary..." F. Dagg
The Binary Warlock (02/11/91)
In <1991Feb5.220132.21422@Neon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (The Ghost Who Wanks) writes: -- >Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu >"I like you Bob, you've got balls." - Lord Edmund Blackadder IT WAS PERCY WHO SAID IT YOU IDIOT !!!!!!! -- Khaos the Binary Warlock, signing off "I love my Amiga" -Anon "Ah, ~ sweet ~" -Anon "Saddam Hussein - he's worse than a Hitler, worse than a Stalin, worse than waking up wearing a wedding ring next to a Roseanne Barr who's grown a moustache. He invaded Iran. He invaded Kuwait. He even invaded parts of his own country, that's how crazy Saddam Hussein is. He's got chemical weapons filled with...with... chemicals. He's got the Bomb. We're all going to die. Details on the News at Ten." -P.J. O'Rourke in Punch.
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (02/11/91)
In article <1991Feb9.164339.12035@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> griffin@frith.uucp (Danny Griffin) writes: > peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > >So what is the mission of the A3000UX? > For one thing you *can* run AmigaDOS also. That's fine for getting Amiga users to buy them, but that isn't going to get them any new market. For someone who wants a UNIX box, why would they get an A3000UX instead of a NeXT (or for that matter a SPARCstation)? -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (02/11/91)
In article <1991Feb08.170805.9961@convex.com>, swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) writes: > In article <1991Feb8.133703.4810@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >>In article <7498@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU>, barrett@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Dan Barrett) writes: >>> And you can't upgrade the >>> RAM -- you have to throw out the RAM you have and replace it with bigger >>> chips.(Amiga allows 18 MB on the motherboard, and can address 1.7 GB RAM.) >> >>Hmm? If you >>want to upgrade Amiga's memory while the slots are full, you have to >>throw small SIMMs away, too! > > Mr. Jalkio, you don't know what you are talking about. > > The A3000 is upgradeable to 18 Mbytes on the motherboard, no slots are used > or needed for this upgrade. No simms are used or needed. > > You take the 1Mbyte of ram out of the normal memory section of the > motherboard and stick it in the display ram area with the other Meg that > is already there (the machine comes with 1 meg 'chip ram' and 1 meg of > 'fast ram'). This upgrades your 'chip ram' to 2 Mbytes. Then you take > up to 16 Mbytes of 1Mx4 bit drams (in 4 Mbyte increments) and you plug > the discrete chips into the empty sockets provided by Commodore on the > motherboard. You now have 18 Mbytes. That is all there is to it. There > is no need to "throw small SIMMs away". There aren't any in there. Quite a logic there, huh? Do you mean that it would be better if NeXTStations came with less memory than 8 1MB simms so that when you upgrade your memory, you don't have to throw those 1MB simms away? You can upgrade to 32MB on motherboard - isn't that actually better than 18MB? And you get at least 8MB as stantard, how about the Amigas? > > -- > _. > --Steve ._||__ DISCLAIMER: All opinions are my own. > Warren v\ *| ---------------------------------------------- > V {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; swarren@convex.com Jouni Alkio
n177ac@tamuts.tamu.edu (Daryl Biberdorf) (02/11/91)
In article <1991Feb11.005426.24174@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > >That's fine for getting Amiga users to buy them, but that isn't going to >get them any new market. For someone who wants a UNIX box, why would they >get an A3000UX instead of a NeXT (or for that matter a SPARCstation)? >-- 3000UX over the NeXT: - slots. the only NeXT models with slots cost at least $2k more than the base 3000UX. The base 3000UX is only $500 more than the base NeXTstation. Compare this with $1.5 - $2k for the base cube over the 3000UX. You can do some things with NeXT's SCSI, but a lot of it isn't possible without really bad kludges. I also think that many people will still be using UNIX machines in 'traditional' ways, i.e. in TEXT mode. The 3000UX would probably work fairly well to support 3 or 4 students or administrative people at a time. It'd also allow you to run a database on it while providing terminals to everyone who needs them. The NeXT is limited in this regard because it has no provision for multiple serial ports. - System V UNIX. You have old System V code and want to run it on the new machine. - You *have* to have X or you don't like NextStep. (I do, but some don't.) 3000UX over SPARC. - price. who are we kidding. SPARC machines at the same price point as the 3000UX are diskless. By the time you add them, the price jumps substantially. - you want a 680x0 box, because you think SPARC is a really icky RISC implementation (which I've heard it is). just some thoughts. --Daryl Biberdorf, n177ac@tamuts.tamu.edu
aru@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Sriram Ramkrishna) (02/12/91)
In article <7498@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU> barrett@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Dan Barrett) writes: > > $4274 for individuals, $3724 for institutions. > This is only for the UXB version, which IMHO is rather useless if you only have 20 megs of space left after UNIX is loaded in. I can understand why this is so, since they want to make a cheaper option where you can then expand. However, I think spending a 1000 bucks more for the D version, doubling your diskspace and memory. I think thats a good deal... Yours, Sri
ptoper@obelix (Andy Nagy) (02/12/91)
In article <1991Feb10.031437.26710@Neon.Stanford.EDU>, torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) writes: [stuff deleted] > > Yes, this bugs me as well... > > Two more questions (if you deign to answer them): > > Has any independent body (who can post to the net) gone out and bought > one of these A3000UXs which have been available for 3 weeks? > Does the version of X use the custom chips for graphics acceleration, > or is it relying solely on the 68030? I believe that the one of the UX developers (can't remember which one) stated that the graphics coprocessors are NOT being used. It was argued that the 68030 could/would be able to do the job in about the same amount of time that it would take to set up the coprocessor with the correct information. (This is from the depths of my foggy memory.) > > Disclaimer: I neither own, nor intend to buy a NeXT. I am > interested in Commodore's intended market for the A3000UX. > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu > "If it weren't for your gumboots, where would you be? You'd be in the > hospital, or in-firm-ary..." F. Dagg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andy Nagy (ptoper@asterix.gaul.csd.uwo.ca) The University of Western Ontario, London, Canada "De do do, de da da, thats all I want to say to you" -- The Police
glmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matt Crowd) (02/12/91)
In article <1991Feb10.021744.6463@NCoast.ORG> davewt@NCoast.ORG (David Wright) writes: > I find it funny that not one person I know who I would consider >even slightly above normal in computer literacy is interested in the NeXT, >and most of the people that I know who were considering it changed their >minds when they found out about the upgrade prices, non-standard Unix, >slow display speed, using the host CPU to do the job of the printer, >lack of expandability, and lack of total machines sold. I mean come on, >there are only just over 15,000 NeXTs (of all models) in the US. What >kind of market is that? > Well I know a lot about computers, I certainly am more interested in the NeXT than the 3000UX. It is faster, has a nice UNIX (even if non-standard at least there are some applications already), and has a display totally IMHO much nicer than OpenLook. The NeXT will be faster at present than the 3000UX even after the overhead of display postscript. 3rd party products always usually make machines that are not designed for extra expansion, more expandible (eg. Amiga 500!!). At present there are no available 040 Amigas, so the point of comparing vapourware to something people can buy, bores me. And I own an Amiga, and like it! As for lack of machines sold... just how many of the 2 million Amigas sold, have been sold in the US? Figures anyone? Colin Adams
torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) (02/13/91)
davewt@NCoast.ORG (David Wright) writes: >In article <1991Feb6.193608.17592@Neon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) writes: >> Since when has Byte started quoting educational prices? > Are you forgetfull or just stupid? (I think the latter). Neither. (see (1) below) >If you >actually READ the article (which I doubt), it clear stated that the price WAS >the educational price, Well, judging from the article which sits on my desk, you must have a different edition of Byte December 1990 than I do. NOWHERE in the article does it mention the words "educational", "college", "higher education", "university" or "certified developer". In fact, the title of the article is "A Unix Graphics Workstation for the Rest of the World"... does "the Rest of the World" mean only university students and certified developers? Here's what the article has to say on price... "The Amiga 3000UX greatly outperforms the equivalent NeXT and Mac with A/UX. In raw Unix performance, it is roughly equivalent to a 20MHz 386 system, but it is much more suited to handling the graphics requirements of a graphical user interface like Open Look. At roughly $4000, it is an obvious choice as a low-end workstation." Then, in the "The Facts" box -------------------------------------- | THE FACTS | | | | Amiga 3000UX | | Approximately $4000 | | | | Commodore Business Machines, Inc. | | Computer Systems Division | | Brandywine Industrial Park | | 1200 Wilson Dr. | | West Chester, PA 19380 | | (215) 431-9100 | | Inquiry 1164 | -------------------------------------- >and that this was a PREVIEW, *not* a REVIEW. Since >up until recently the only way you could get a 3000UX was to be either a >student or a certified developer (who get better prices), the "about $4000" >was correct and quite accurate. Well, then Byte should have stated that these were "educational" prices, rather than titling the article "Unix for the Rest of the World"... And I have never known Byte to quote educational prices before (most vendors prefer to keep these private, so that their retail customers don't know how much they're getting gouged for). Therefore, rather than being "correct and quite accurate", I would say that the "about $4000" was incorrect and quite misleading. Of course, the question is "Where did Byte come up with the $4000 figure?" Did they just pull it out of the hat? Surely they would have asked Commodore "How much is this machine going to sell for?" >In fact, back when they reviewed it the >machine came with slightly less memory for that same price then it does now. Once again, from the article... "The base Amiga 3000UX machine includes a 25MHz MC68030, a math coprocessor, 8 megabytes of RAM, a 100MB SCSI drive (optional 200 MB)," 8 MB < 5MB?? The Ethernet board makes up for this though... > I find it funny that not one person I know who I would consider >even slightly above normal in computer literacy is interested in the NeXT, Well, there are a lot of universities which seem to be interested in the NeXT. I guess though this depends on your definition of "computer literate". (1) I don't mind if you call me forgetful or stupid for a good reason. But next time, I suggest you be 100% certain of your facts, otherwise you're the one who ends up looking "stupid". -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu "Dear Fascist Bully Boy, Give me some money, or else. Neil. P.S. May the seed of your loins be fruitful in the womb of your woman..."
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (02/13/91)
In article <1991Feb8.133703.4810@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >In article <7498@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU>, barrett@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Dan Barrett) writes: >Hmm? If you want to upgrade Amiga's memory while the slots are full, you have >to throw small SIMMs away, too! [a] The A3000 doesn't use SIMMs. [b] You never have to throw away memory when upgrading an A3000, at least one that's configured as-shipped by C=. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "What works for me might work for you" -Jimmy Buffett
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (02/13/91)
In article <12013@helios.TAMU.EDU> n177ac@tamuts.tamu.edu (Daryl Biberdorf) writes: > I also think that many people will still be using UNIX machines in > 'traditional' ways, i.e. in TEXT mode. In that case the competition isn't the NeXT, it's the 386-based PC clones, and they're a *whole* lot cheaper than the NeXT... in the same price range as an Amiga 2000 with no accelerator. > - System V UNIX. You have old System V code and want to run it on the new > machine. 386 AT clones. > - you want a 680x0 box, because you think SPARC is a really icky > RISC implementation (which I've heard it is). I don't care what the CPU is if it's running UNIX... just look at the system speed. I don't think *anyone* cares about the CPU unless it's a 386 so they can run an efficient Messy-DOS emulator, or if a 68000 so you can run Mac apps under A/UX. Now if you could run AmigaOS apps under Amiga UNIX, that'd make a difference. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
n368bq@tamuts.tamu.edu (Raoul Rodriguez) (02/13/91)
O-tay, here at Texas A&M, the price for Next's are (in educational and retial) NeXTStaion Computer - 105HD $4,995 ($3,328) NeXtStation Computer - 340HD $6,995 ($5,052) NeXTStation Color (4032 colors) - 105HD $7,995 ($5,774) NeXTStation Color - 420HD $10,995 ($7,941) NeXT Cube (The one with slots) - 105HD $7,995 ($5,774) NeXT Cube - 340HD $11,495 ($8,302) NeXT Cube Color (32 bit color?) - 105HD $14,115 ($10,194) NeXT Cube Color - 340HD $17,615 ($12,722) Accessories.... Laser Printer (toner not included) $1,792 ($1,282) Toner Cartridge $125 ($125) Paper Tray $75 ($75) 2.88MB Floppy disks (box of five) $39 ($39) 256MB Optical Disk Cartridge $149 ($149) It should be noted here that the new NeXT's come with the 68040 and no optical drive, the printer is so cheap becasue it is basically "brain dead" the computer does all of the math crunching for it. Based on what I have heard on the Net, the NeXT to compare to the A3000UX would be the "High capacity" versions (those with 340 HD's) and those are $5,052 and $7,941 (the mono (well greyscale) and the color "Slabs" respectivly) (educational price) Although I think the computer to compare is the the "Cube" (becuse of the slots (wihtout color) (High Capacity)) at $8,302 (educational) Also to note, the NeXT uses SCSI II drives (more expensive), but it can use regular SCSI drives with the additin of another $75 for the adapter. The sheet I had did not have the cost of Boards for the Cube... This certainly clears things up a bit (IMHO) Raoul Rodriguez "Several errant electrons jumped when they shouldn't have at a place they shouldn't have, resulting in what shouldn't have. In short, a short." -Bloom County
davewt@NCoast.ORG (David Wright) (02/13/91)
In article <3455@dali> icsu8053@ming.cs.montana.edu (Craig Pratt) writes: >This is rediculous. Computers are not necessarilly compared because they >have equivilant features but because they are targeted for the same market. No disagreement. But your earlier statements are false. There are broad ranges within almost any "class" you might want to create. Are you saying that it is fair to compare a Feiro with the old 4cyl engine to one with a 6 cyl engine? They are in the same class but only an idiot wouldn't know which one performs better. The NeXT is like a sports care that someone has tied on 2 tons of luggage (the user interface). When it only had a 4 cyl engine, it's performance was sluggish compared to machine with the same engine that lacked the overloaded bagage. By putting in a larger engine you get the expected performance boost. But what you are saying is that by now adding in a larger more powerfull engine this vehicle is "better" than the other car with the 4 cyl. Of course it is. But which one will be faster when the other car (which was faster before) also has the new engine installed? The fact that it is not there at the present time is moot. If it is available (and it is), and there are reasonable upgrade paths, you can assume that with the new engine the other car will once again outperform the overloaded one. Dave
davewt@NCoast.ORG (David Wright) (02/13/91)
In article <1991Feb8.133703.4810@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >large third party HD instead of a big one from NeXT. You can get 650MB >for about $2000 (external). Which would also work on the Amiga, with no changes. >Hmm? If you >want to upgrade Amiga's memory while the slots are full, you have to >throw small SIMMs away, too! But actually, selling the 1MEG SIMMs on >NeXTstation to someone shouldn't be a problem. And you only have to sell >4 of them - and the insert 4 4MEG SIMMs - that is total of 20MEG >(maximum 32MEG on motherboard). 1) Amiga's don't USE SIMM memory. 2) Why would you get rid of it? The Amiga has SLOTS which allow you to add as much memory as you wish. > >It is true that NeXT doesn't have very affordable color models. I guess >it is because their lowest color stantard is about 1200x850 resolution >with 12 bits (plus 4 alpha). Oh, you mean less than the Amiga's TARGA resolution. Dave
icsu8053@ming.cs.montana.edu (Craig Pratt) (02/14/91)
In article <1991Feb13.044705.635@NCoast.ORG> davewt@NCoast.ORG (David Wright) writes: >In article <3455@dali> icsu8053@ming.cs.montana.edu (Craig Pratt) writes: >>This is rediculous. Computers are not necessarilly compared because they >>have equivilant features but because they are targeted for the same market. > No disagreement. But your earlier statements are false. >There are broad ranges within almost any "class" you might want to >create. Are you saying that it is fair to compare a Feiro with the old 4cyl >engine to one with a 6 cyl engine? They are in the same class but only an >idiot wouldn't know which one performs better. Depends on what your "idiot" considers "better performance", doesn't it? Consumer Reports, IMHO one of the fairest rating organizations around, often compares a new car of a particular model to its older incarnations. Many times this new incarnation will include an larger engine and/or more fuel injectors. Why? There are also many different types of performance. Sure, the 6-cyl Fiero accelerates faster but it probably also eats more gas and may have less cargo space due to the increased enjine size. There are many facets of comparison. A fair comparison will simply describe them and the major consequences. ie, "The 4-cyl Fiero lacks the torque and horsepower its 6-cyl counterpart which is a great advantage on the highway. For city driving, however, the higher gas milage and shorter braking distance of the 4-cyl Fiero, as well as it's lower price, make it an ecenomical choice for the commuter." > The NeXT is like a sports care that someone has tied on 2 tons >of luggage (the user interface). When it only had a 4 cyl engine, it's >performance was sluggish compared to machine with the same engine that >lacked the overloaded bagage. By putting in a larger engine you get the >expected performance boost. But what you are saying is that by now >adding in a larger more powerfull engine this vehicle is "better" than the >other car with the 4 cyl. Of course it is. But which one will be faster >when the other car (which was faster before) also has the new engine >installed? The fact that it is not there at the present time is moot. >If it is available (and it is), and there are reasonable upgrade paths, >you can assume that with the new engine the other car will once again >outperform the overloaded one. Sometimes you need baggage if you're going for a long trip. The NeXT and the 3000UX (I assume) allow you to run without the user interface. Please try to remember that we are talking about the 3000UX which is intended for running Unix. To compare a NeXT running Mach and PostScript to a 3000 running AmigaDOS and Intuition decreases the basis of comparison since these would not really be targeted for the same market: Unix workstations/PCs. Unix/Mach is much more powerful than AmigaDOS. Any future comparisons should be made with the Next w/Unix/Mach and Display PostScript and the 3000UX running AT&T Unix and its windowing system (OpenLook?). Otherwise, the comparison means little. > Dave -- /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// | Craig Pratt _ icsu8053@cs.montana.edu / | Montana State University, Bozeman ( )Craig.Pratt@msu3.oscs.montana.edu / |_____________________________________/ \__________________________________/
gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) (02/15/91)
From article <3485@dali>, by icsu8053@ming.cs.montana.edu (Craig) writes: > Consumer Reports, IMHO one of the fairest rating organizations around, > often compares a new car of a particular model to its older incarnations. > Many times this new incarnation will include an larger engine and/or more > fuel injectors. Why? There are also many different types of performance. > Sure, the 6-cyl Fiero accelerates faster but it probably also eats more > gas and may have less cargo space due to the increased enjine size. There > are many facets of comparison. A fair comparison will simply describe them > and the major consequences. ie, "The 4-cyl Fiero lacks the torque and > horsepower its 6-cyl counterpart which is a great advantage on the highway. > For city driving, however, the higher gas milage and shorter braking > distance of the 4-cyl Fiero, as well as it's lower price, make it an > ecenomical choice for the commuter." > You've almost exactly described the point from the other viewpoint. The NeXT machine theoretically goes faster (accelerates faster) but also eats more gas(overhead), and has less cargo space (slots) due to the increased engine size( the cost of a 68040 over a 68030, maybe?). The 4-cyl Amiga 3000UX lacks the torque and horsepower of it's 6-cyl COMPETITOR (the NeXT) which is a great advantage on the highway (the NETWORKS). For city driving (personal use), however, the higher gas mileage (less overhead eating processor time) and shorter braking distance of the 4-cyl Amiga 3000UX, as well as it's lower price (and if it's not true now, I'm sure it will be... :) make it an economical (read BETTER) choice for the commuter (user)... :) OF course, I also have a problem with this, because we all know that the 3000UX is better than the NeXT, right??? :) Besides, the X-Windows under the 3000UX is faster than that of the NeXT, believe it or not... > > Sometimes you need baggage if you're going for a long trip. The NeXT > and the 3000UX (I assume) allow you to run without the user interface. > > Please try to remember that we are talking about the 3000UX which is > intended for running Unix. To compare a NeXT running Mach and PostScript > to a 3000 running AmigaDOS and Intuition decreases the basis of comparison > since these would not really be targeted for the same market: Unix > workstations/PCs. Unix/Mach is much more powerful than AmigaDOS. > Any future comparisons should be made with the Next w/Unix/Mach and > Display PostScript and the 3000UX running AT/(7`:&T Unix and its windowing > system (OpenLook?). Otherwise, the comparison means little. Okay. I'm willing to bet that the 3000UX benchmarks will beat that of Mach. for one simple reason. Mach was created so that unix could be optimized NOT for any processor optimizations, but so that it would be easy to implement and integrate Display PostScript into the system. Hooks were put in, calls to postscript routines optimized, but PostScript itself wasn't. They did little to optimize it for any one processor, or for that matter, anything. It's like comparing an IBM to a macintosh. The IBM is like the Display PostScript. Clunky, obtuse, using internal kludges so that it would be smooth looking. It is drawn out in places where it could (and should) have been more recursive. Whereas QuickDraw(TM/C Apple Computers) is like X-Windows (in general....) X-Windows is general, but is generally much more efficient than display postscript and NextWindows, or whate'er the thing is called. See, X-Windows is just that- X-Windows. That's the whole interface. But NeXTWindow is Display PostScript -AND- a windowing system. So let's say that the windowing system is roughly equivelant to that of X-windows. Where does that put Display postscript? What is the comparison on the amiga? Simple. THere is none. If the NextWindow system is more or less equivelant to X-Windows, Display Postscript would, as far as I can tell, compete with the Amiga's kernel (which maybe pieces of which control graphics, or something). Both X-Windows and NextWindows (I keep using that, I don't know if it's correct)... are the graphic interface. But the stuff from X-windows goes to no other process to get re-processed. NextWindows sends its (output? window code? postscript graphics?? Whatever, it sends it... ) stuff out to Display PostScript on TOP of that... Of course, I the master of speculation... :) Am not positive on this... and if Dave Haynie or anyone else from C= could delight in telling me how they handled the graphical interface (if they used bits and pieces of intuition, or if X-Windows does what intuition used to do in a completely different manner... I hope you get what I'm trying to say...) and tell us how it compares speed-wise to other GUI's on other systems, I'd be on cloud nine... But, of course, I babble.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu | Amigas, Amigas everywhere, but not a one can think. | Where's an AI when you need one??? :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------