rjc@mole.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (02/12/91)
Ok, you asked for the real comparison? Well here it is.
The Amiga 500 (slab) vs NeXT (slab)
NeXT Slab $3200
Amiga 500 $500
040 CPU board $1500 *
Unix $500-800 ?
A2024 $600 ?
---------------------------------- ---------------------------------
Total: $3200-3400 $3200
* - The 040 board will includes a cheap SCSI controller ($200)
cheap ethernet, and a 100mb HD and 8mb of ram.
(note: If this were integrated and priced educationally the ram/A500/Unix/2024
would be cheaper)
Comparisons:
The A500 will run AmigaDOS and AT&T Unix (1 point for the Amiga!)
Has color (1 point)
Has 1 expansion slot (heheh 1 point)
NeXT has DSP (1 point for NeXT)
Summary:
While this is a fantasy comparison, it just shows that you can take
just about any computer, strip it down, add in an 040 and it will
price about the same as the NeXT.
Not only that, My A500 slab STILL looks more attractive than the NeXT
because it also comes with AmigaDOS, an expansion slot and color (optional
monitor).
The recent threads in this conference really depress me. People are
acting like Apple/Ibm.
Remember these old lines:
"You don't need multitasking!"
"You don't need color!"
"You don't need sound!"
and now
"You don't need expansion slots."
Sheesh, what's next? "You don't need a computer, use pencil and paper."
Some of those old lines came from Apple and IBM who used to brainwash
their consumers telling them what they do and don't need.
Not everyone needs everything, but I think a computer should deliver ALL
of the above and MORE as standard operating equipment. Why? Because
when you push up the lowest common denominator of hardware/software,
you're not held back by 'backwards compatibility.' Better yet,
when a computer has certain features built in as default programs
tend to use these features more readily. The only reason this doesn't
work with the IBM is because of the sheer size of the market. It's so
big and there are so many companies that almost every little
third party hardware enhancement/os improvement gets supported
adequately. If a company creates a DSP board for the Amiga, maybe 2 or 3
software companies will support it (depending how popular it is), if
you did the same thing on the IBM, you could generate 30-40 packages
that support it perhaps more, just for that small little niche.
Now 'integrated computer' and 'open computer' are not mutually exclusive.
Its possible to build a computer with everything a user could think of
needing. But you cannot forsee the future, thats why it's better to plan
for the future and make your computer 'open' instead of being so
arrogant to think that you know what the user wants, and what he will
want in the future.
One or two NeXT users mentioned 'If I ever want to upgrade my
CPU or graphics <color>, I'll just sell my NeXT and buy a different model.'
THIS IS NOT A SOLUTION. It's one of the reasons expansion slots were
invented. I don't want my computer to become obsolete every 1 or 2
years when a new processor revision/hardware add-on becomes availible forcing
me to buy a new model.
The more expensive computers are, the more open they should be. I don't
mind selling a C64 to get a C128. But if a $10,000 computer becomes
obsolete every 1 or 2 years, its a problem. (Imagine how difficult it
would be to replace all the computers on the internet everytime a
new Ethernet card/software became availible.)
My end opinion is that the slab is not the 'NeXT generation of computers
for the 90s.' In 1, perhaps 2 years it could become obsoleted by an
A3000 with a faster 040 card, 050,etc.
The Cube may be able to compete, but the price needs to fall.
Someone mentioned that the SPARC is not very expandible either. True, look
at the consequences. CISC computers (pcs, etc) have been able to 'catch up'
with SPARCstations. If it was possible to merely place a card in the
SPARCStation 1, and instantly turn it into a SPARCStation2, SPARC would still
be in the lead.
Who will buy the A3000UX? Perhaps people who want an expandible machine,
perhaps people who want AmigaDOS and Unix (to possible cross develop),
perhaps people who want the video capabilities of the Amiga, and Unix.
I dunno. People buy IBMs everyday yet there are other more technologically
advanced computers out there.
The choice to buy the A3000UX won't be based on SPEC sheets alone,
and neither will the purchases of NeXTs, Sun's, VAXes, or any other
computer for that matter.
The same goes for CDTV, Atari STs, Macs, Nitendo's etc.peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (02/13/91)
I'm sorry, but the standard Amiga color monitor is not adequate for X. Add a multisync monitor and ECS to the cost of your 500. (100 MB hard drive, plus 68040, in an Amiga 500 expansion card? For $1500? In your dreams maybe...) -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (02/13/91)
In article <1991Feb12.210216.19479@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >I'm sorry, but the standard Amiga color monitor is not adequate for X. Add a >multisync monitor and ECS to the cost of your 500. A2024. >(100 MB hard drive, plus 68040, in an Amiga 500 expansion card? For $1500? > In your dreams maybe...) How much do you think the 68040 will cost in bulk? $1000 a chip? If 68040s cost 1k a chip, this means NeXT makes almost no profit on the slab. ($1000 68040, $800 for 8mb of ram, $600 Quantum, $300 Ethernet?, + the cost of the motherboard, monitor, VLSI chips) I have no idea what NeXT price NeXT is buying 040's for, but if you look the the GVP A3001 ($2800), remove the cost of the 030/882, slap in a 040, and a $300 ethernet, plus a $400 A500 motherboard, you could compete with the NeXT. Remember, I'm assuming that Commodore could purchase the 040's for the same price/priveleges NeXT gets, and that the A500 slab woul be highly integrated to all this hardware like the A3000 is. Your answer to every NeXt gripe seems to be 'Well if the NeXT can't do this, you may as well buy a RISC box.' The NeXT slab (smallest version) will never succeed as a 'personal' workstation. (too me, it looks like an overpriced terminal that needs a lab environment to get any real work done.) >-- >Peter da Silva. `-_-' ><peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) (02/13/91)
In article <1991Feb13.044829.11371@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >In article <1991Feb12.210216.19479@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >>(100 MB hard drive, plus 68040, in an Amiga 500 expansion card? For $1500? >> In your dreams maybe...) > How much do you think the 68040 will cost in bulk? $1000 a chip? >If 68040s cost 1k a chip, this means NeXT makes almost no profit on >the slab. ($1000 68040, $800 for 8mb of ram, $600 Quantum, $300 Ethernet?, >+ the cost of the motherboard, monitor, VLSI chips) Remember that NeXT helped Moto out quite a bit. I wouldn't be surprised if most of those early chips were popcorn. > I have no idea what NeXT price NeXT is buying 040's for, but if you >look the the GVP A3001 ($2800), remove the cost of the 030/882, slap in >a 040, and a $300 ethernet, plus a $400 A500 motherboard, you could >compete with the NeXT. Remember, I'm assuming that Commodore could >purchase the 040's for the same price/priveleges NeXT gets, and >that the A500 slab woul be highly integrated to all this hardware >like the A3000 is. Well, this is all pretty academic. We'll never see an '040 A500, and C= will likely have to pay a good deal more than NeXT has for their '040s. > The NeXT slab (smallest version) will never succeed as a 'personal' >workstation. (too me, it looks like an overpriced terminal that needs >a lab environment to get any real work done.) I've spoken to some NeXT employees that share this sentiment. The 100Meg Slab is pretty useless as a stand-alone UNIX box. The optimal environment for this would be on a network. The one I use is linked to two '030 Cubes, and it is S L O W. Optimal? I'd hate to see it run on its own ;-) >>-- >>Peter da Silva. `-_-' >><peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>. Dave Hopper | /// The Amiga: | The great strength of the total- | __ /// | itarian state is that it forces bard@jessica. | \\\/// The Cybernetic | those who fear it to imitate it. Stanford.EDU | \XX/ Revolution is NOW! | --Adolph Hitler
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (02/13/91)
> >(100 MB hard drive, plus 68040, in an Amiga 500 expansion card? For $1500? > > In your dreams maybe...) > Remember, I'm assuming that Commodore could > purchase the 040's for the same price/priveleges NeXT gets, and > that the A500 slab woul be highly integrated to all this hardware > like the A3000 is. Be cheaper to make an A3000 slab. I was assuming you were talking about upgrading the A500 to NeXT levels. That means a self-powered expansion box. For $1500? No way. > Your answer to every NeXt gripe seems to be 'Well if the NeXT can't do > this, you may as well buy a RISC box.' No, just being rational about the cost-benefit tradeoffs. The A3000UX is competing at the very low-end of workstations. Once you start putting substantial hardware in there you *are* competing against RISC boxes, and they have a serious performance advantage. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (02/13/91)
In article <1991Feb13.071047.16549@portia.Stanford.EDU> bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) writes: > >Well, this is all pretty academic. We'll never see an '040 A500, and C= >will likely have to pay a good deal more than NeXT has for their '040s. Don't bet on this! The fastest Amiga available today is indeed an A500 with a 50 MHz 68030 card named Stormbringer. Well, this is not from Commodore, but it works. -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (02/14/91)
In article <1991Feb12.043247.6171@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, rjc@mole.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > > Ok, you asked for the real comparison? Well here it is. ---- I'll make it a bit more real: > > The Amiga 500 (slab) vs NeXT (slab) > NeXT Slab $3200 > Amiga 500 $500 > 040 CPU board $1500 * Hmm. _Is_ there such a board? Or just a rumor? Is the rest of the machine designed so, that it will someday accommodate a '040? > Unix $500-800 ? PLUS the price for some Unix graphics interface - and better take the best you can find. > A2024 $600 ? What kind of display is the A2040? You should get a 2-page DTP display if you tried to be fair. On _Workstation market_ you need _High quality_ graphics. Most people who are using the machine something else than video graphigs rather take the 1200x850 4-shade system than some not-so-high-quality color with a small monitor. And for _real_ video graphics, you need 24-bits or more. > ---------------------------------- --------------------------------- > Total: $3200-3400 $3200 I guess the price will be more. Add to this that NeXT has the DSP and 16-bit CD-quality stereo-audio, this is not cheap. It also comes with complete programming environment. And if you are an university customer, you get Mathematica (might be worth almost $1000) etc. etc. > > * - The 040 board will includes a cheap SCSI controller ($200) > cheap ethernet, and a 100mb HD and 8mb of ram. > > (note: If this were integrated and priced educationally the ram/A500/Unix/2024 > would be cheaper) > > Comparisons: > The A500 will run AmigaDOS and AT&T Unix (1 point for the Amiga!) What's the point in AmigaDOS? How is it better than NeXTStep? > Has color (1 point) Read above. > Has 1 expansion slot (heheh 1 point) Not if you put the '040 in it. (I don't know if you put it there, actually.) > NeXT has DSP (1 point for NeXT) > > Summary: > > While this is a fantasy comparison, it just shows that you can take > just about any computer, strip it down, add in an 040 and it will > price about the same as the NeXT. > Not only that, My A500 slab STILL looks more attractive than the NeXT > because it also comes with AmigaDOS, an expansion slot and color (optional > monitor). I think that MOST people would prefer a Slab to your super-A500. Really. > > The recent threads in this conference really depress me. People are > acting like Apple/Ibm. > > Remember these old lines: > "You don't need multitasking!" > "You don't need color!" > "You don't need sound!" > > and now > "You don't need expansion slots." Oh, you can't have EVERYTHING for $3000. You just have to decide _what_ you need most. (Amiga, for example doesn't really have sound on $3000 range - only because of the insufficent quality for anything more than games.) > Sheesh, what's next? "You don't need a computer, use pencil and paper." > > Some of those old lines came from Apple and IBM who used to brainwash > their consumers telling them what they do and don't need. > > > One or two NeXT users mentioned 'If I ever want to upgrade my > CPU or graphics <color>, I'll just sell my NeXT and buy a different model.' > THIS IS NOT A SOLUTION. It's one of the reasons expansion slots were > invented. I don't want my computer to become obsolete every 1 or 2 > years when a new processor revision/hardware add-on becomes availible forcing > me to buy a new model. The most important function of expansion slots is to make it possible to a computer have some extra hardware functionality. They are not there to make the computer "live forever". Face it, if you have a computer with the main board on slot, the only thing that you have to keep is the case. And cases are not that expensive. So, that's why I think it's not much different to first buy a machine with no slots and then change to a same kind of machine with slots _when you actually NEED those slots_. You don't loose much. Just change the case and buy the slots, really. (And if you don't happen to need the slots, you actually win.) > The more expensive computers are, the more open they should be. I don't > mind selling a C64 to get a C128. But if a $10,000 computer becomes > obsolete every 1 or 2 years, its a problem. (Imagine how difficult it > would be to replace all the computers on the internet everytime a > new Ethernet card/software became availible.) > > My end opinion is that the slab is not the 'NeXT generation of computers > for the 90s.' In 1, perhaps 2 years it could become obsoleted by an > A3000 with a faster 040 card, 050,etc. More likely is, that NeXTstation will be obsoleted with a NeXTstation II with '050 (or perhaps there will be a motherboard upgrade). What do you do with your '030 on the A3000 when you uprade to '040, anyway? > > The Cube may be able to compete, but the price needs to fall. Jouni Alkio, Helsinki, Finland
rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (02/14/91)
In article <1991Feb13.161930.4861@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >In article <1991Feb12.043247.6171@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, rjc@mole.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >> >> Ok, you asked for the real comparison? Well here it is. > ---- > >I'll make it a bit more real: Or a little twisted. >> >> The Amiga 500 (slab) vs NeXT (slab) >> NeXT Slab $3200 >> Amiga 500 $500 >> 040 CPU board $1500 * > >Hmm. _Is_ there such a board? Or just a rumor? Is the rest of the >machine designed so, that it will someday accommodate a '040? Look this is a thought experiment, I thought everyone understood that. >> Unix $500-800 ? > >PLUS the price for some Unix graphics interface - and better take the >best you can find. XWindows is free. >> A2024 $600 ? > >What kind of display is the A2040? You should get a 2-page DTP display >if you tried to be fair. The A2024 is 1024x1024 mono. It's a monitor not a card. >On _Workstation market_ you need _High quality_ graphics. Most people >who are using the machine something else than video graphigs rather take >the 1200x850 4-shade system than some not-so-high-quality color with a >small monitor. And for _real_ video graphics, you need 24-bits or more. ^^^^^^^ Hmm. I guess my lowly TV set isn't real. Because NTSC can't do 24bit color. Toaster. 'Nuff said. Aha, but more and more UNIX's these days are getting graphics and color. >> ---------------------------------- --------------------------------- >> Total: $3200-3400 $3200 > >I guess the price will be more. > >Add to this that NeXT has the DSP and 16-bit CD-quality stereo-audio, >this is not cheap. It also comes with complete programming environment. >And if you are an university customer, you get Mathematica (might be >worth almost $1000) etc. etc. "You don't need a DSP!" If your going to argue expansion slots that are not being used, you may as well argue the logic of why every NeXT has a DSP when not every user needs one. >> >> * - The 040 board will includes a cheap SCSI controller ($200) >> cheap ethernet, and a 100mb HD and 8mb of ram. >> >> (note: If this were integrated and priced educationally the ram/A500/Unix/2024 >> would be cheaper) >> >> Comparisons: >> The A500 will run AmigaDOS and AT&T Unix (1 point for the Amiga!) > >What's the point in AmigaDOS? How is it better than NeXTStep? It's a better single user system. Built for speed and real-time applications. I can do in 512k, what it takes over 8mb to do on a NeXT. >>Has 1 expansion slot. >Not if you put the '040 in it. (I don't know if you put it there, actually.) Nope. This card would patch into the 68000 slot like the MegaMidget racer does. >> NeXT has DSP (1 point for NeXT) >> >> Summary: >> >> While this is a fantasy comparison, it just shows that you can take >> just about any computer, strip it down, add in an 040 and it will >> price about the same as the NeXT. >> Not only that, My A500 slab STILL looks more attractive than the NeXT >> because it also comes with AmigaDOS, an expansion slot and color (optional >> monitor). > >I think that MOST people would prefer a Slab to your super-A500. Really. I think most people would prefer a computer they could USE for $3200. >> >> The recent threads in this conference really depress me. People are >> acting like Apple/Ibm. >> >> Remember these old lines: >> "You don't need multitasking!" >> "You don't need color!" >> "You don't need sound!" >> >> and now >> "You don't need expansion slots." > >Oh, you can't have EVERYTHING for $3000. You just have to decide _what_ >you need most. (Amiga, for example doesn't really have sound on $3000 >range - only because of the insufficent quality for anything more than >games.) 16 bit DAC's are cheap. All it takes for NeXT quality sound is a use 16bit DACs (and perhaps a chip to feed them). CDTV (which is an Amiga) has 16bit CD sound (it plays CDs) so obviously it can be done. And to follow on in your footsteps "You don't need SOUND. An internal beep will do." >> One or two NeXT users mentioned 'If I ever want to upgrade my >> CPU or graphics <color>, I'll just sell my NeXT and buy a different model.' >> THIS IS NOT A SOLUTION. It's one of the reasons expansion slots were >> invented. I don't want my computer to become obsolete every 1 or 2 >> years when a new processor revision/hardware add-on becomes availible forcing >> me to buy a new model. > >So, that's why I think it's not much different to first buy a machine >with no slots and then change to a same kind of machine with slots _when >you actually NEED those slots_. You don't loose much. Just change the >case and buy the slots, really. (And if you don't happen to need the slots, >you actually win.) Would you buy a car if you knew it was going to break down in 5 years? When I buy something, I want it to last. Your "Buy this model now to hold you over, then sell it and get this model." mentality is not appealing. > >> My end opinion is that the slab is not the 'NeXT generation of computers >> for the 90s.' In 1, perhaps 2 years it could become obsoleted by an >> A3000 with a faster 040 card, 050,etc. > >More likely is, that NeXTstation will be obsoleted with a NeXTstation II >with '050 (or perhaps there will be a motherboard upgrade). What do you >do with your '030 on the A3000 when you uprade to '040, anyway? Yea, and you'll have to sell your slab to upgrade. The 030 stays in the A3000 dormat while the 040 runs. Unless someone (like the board manufacturer) writes a small patch to OS to put the 030 to good use, like an i/o processor, or an IBM AT emulator, etc. >> >> The Cube may be able to compete, but the price needs to fall. > > > Jouni Alkio, Helsinki, Finland
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (02/14/91)
In article <1991Feb13.212430.4657@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > Would you buy a car if you knew it was going to break down in 5 years? Attention, you have been detected creating a flawed analogy. This Analogy Detector software would like to suggest an alternative: Would you buy a car when you know it wouldn't be able to be fitted with ABS, 4-wheel drive, passive restraints, or a pick-up bed, and would require removing the engine to install a larger one? Thank you for your support. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (02/15/91)
In article <1991Feb13.071047.16549@portia.Stanford.EDU> bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) writes: >Remember that NeXT helped Moto out quite a bit. Really? In what way? Certainly not by buying 68030 chips; C=, Apple, HP, Sun, maybe even GVP bought more of those puppies. By testing the '040? Plenty of others, like HP, several VME board makers, etc. were pushing the '040 much harder during its development. If you caught the Motorola's original '040 add, there were quite a few names on the list. Most were presumably working with '040s, even if they haven't shipped any such system yet. And it would be reasonable to expect companies like Apple, who weren't on the list, have been likewise looking at the chip. So what's left? Well, NeXT did get good press on these new machines, and that does benefit Motorola, since you pretty much have to believe a chip is real when its shipping in a system. >Well, this is all pretty academic. We'll never see an '040 A500, and C= >will likely have to pay a good deal more than NeXT has for their '040s. Not necessarily. You tend to pay based on the volume you need. If C= does get into the '040 machine business, they might buy more '040s than NeXT. Anyone who puts one in an A500 at the right price has a real good chance of selling more '040s -- NeXTs are measured in O(10,000) quantity, A500s are measured in O(1,000,000) quantity. Personally, I haven't had a chance to work with the '040 myself, but it's a cool chip. >Dave Hopper | /// The Amiga: | The great strength of the total- -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "What works for me might work for you" -Jimmy Buffett
dtiberio@csserv2.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (02/15/91)
In article <888@cbmger.UUCP> peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) writes: >In article <1991Feb13.071047.16549@portia.Stanford.EDU> bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) writes: >> >>Well, this is all pretty academic. We'll never see an '040 A500, and C= >>will likely have to pay a good deal more than NeXT has for their '040s. > >Don't bet on this! The fastest Amiga available today is indeed an >A500 with a 50 MHz 68030 card named Stormbringer. Well, this is >not from Commodore, but it works. > >-- >Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... >Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk Well, as soon as RedySoffed comes out with their new NeKST Emulator, we will know which computer to buy! :) DavidTiberio SUNYStonyBrook2-3605 AMIGA TotoProductions DDDMEN
bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) (02/15/91)
In article <18988@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >In article <1991Feb13.071047.16549@portia.Stanford.EDU> bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) writes: > >>Remember that NeXT helped Moto out quite a bit. > >Really? In what way? I have heard (from a reliable source ;-) that Moto was pretty grateful for NeXT's role in debugging the '040; grateful to the point of supplying a bunch (read: a BUNCH) of chips for free. >>Well, this is all pretty academic. We'll never see an '040 A500, and C= >>will likely have to pay a good deal more than NeXT has for their '040s. > >Not necessarily. You tend to pay based on the volume you need. If C= does >get into the '040 machine business, they might buy more '040s than NeXT. >Anyone who puts one in an A500 at the right price has a real good chance of >selling more '040s -- NeXTs are measured in O(10,000) quantity, A500s are >measured in O(1,000,000) quantity. Good point. I sure hope Moto isn't playing favorites. I wouldn't think they are the kind of company that would (unlike Lotus, MiserySoft, Borland, WP, et. al.). >Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" Dave Hopper | /// The Amiga: | The great strength of the total- | __ /// | itarian state is that it forces bard@jessica. | \\\/// The Cybernetic | those who fear it to imitate it. Stanford.EDU | \XX/ Revolution is NOW! | --Adolph Hitler
skipper@motaus.sps.mot.com (Skipper Smith) (02/16/91)
In article <1991Feb15.052723.19212@portia.Stanford.EDU> bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) writes: >In article <18988@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >>In article <1991Feb13.071047.16549@portia.Stanford.EDU> bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) writes: >> >>>Remember that NeXT helped Moto out quite a bit. >> >>Really? In what way? > >I have heard (from a reliable source ;-) that Moto was pretty grateful for >NeXT's role in debugging the '040; grateful to the point of supplying a bunch >(read: a BUNCH) of chips for free. It is fairly normal procedure to supply our good customers with BETA silicon at no cost- after all, the only thing they can do with it is try to debug their own systems; they can't make any money off of them. As for the debugging the '040- I can't tell you who is on our BETA site list or who provided us with bug reports, but what I can say is that we are grateful to all of our customers that helped us work out the bugs from our silicon (and considering the number of customers that we work with, I have a feeling that NeXT probably didn't supply us with all that much- total- although perhaps they were able to do a lot relative to size). ... > >>Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" > >Dave Hopper | /// The Amiga: | The great strength of the total- > | __ /// | itarian state is that it forces >bard@jessica. | \\\/// The Cybernetic | those who fear it to imitate it. > Stanford.EDU | \XX/ Revolution is NOW! | --Adolph Hitler -- Skipper Smith | skipper@motaus.sps.mot.com Motorola Technical Training | 8945 Guilford Rd Ste 145 All opinions are my own, not my employers | Columbia, MD 21046
stevew@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Steven L Wootton) (02/19/91)
In article <1991Feb13.212430.4657@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >In article <1991Feb13.161930.4861@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >>In article <1991Feb12.043247.6171@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, rjc@mole.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > On a hypothetical mutant 500: >>> Unix $500-800 ? >> >>PLUS the price for some Unix graphics interface - and better take the >>best you can find. > > XWindows is free. BWAAAHAHAHAHA... heh. I like this. How much is your time worth? >Toaster. 'Nuff said. Running X? (snicker) See above. Steve Wootton stevew@ecn.purdue.edu
rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (02/19/91)
In article <1991Feb18.164538.14932@en.ecn.purdue.edu> stevew@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Steven L Wootton) writes: >In article <1991Feb13.212430.4657@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >>In article <1991Feb13.161930.4861@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >>>In article <1991Feb12.043247.6171@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, rjc@mole.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >> > >On a hypothetical mutant 500: > >>>> Unix $500-800 ? >>> >>>PLUS the price for some Unix graphics interface - and better take the >>>best you can find. >> >> XWindows is free. > >BWAAAHAHAHAHA... heh. I like this. How much is your time worth? 'Shows how much you know, Xwindows is already being ported the the Amiga's graphics hardware for FREE by a team at funet.fi. In fact, they also ported GCC, GDB (I think) and are porting G++. >>Toaster. 'Nuff said. > >Running X? (snicker) See above. Once X is ported (by the PD team) its quite easy to make it run on the toaster assuming you did a smart port and kept all the Amiga hardware dependent code outside in a seperate module. >Steve Wootton >stevew@ecn.purdue.edu
hychejw@infonode.ingr.com (Jeff W. Hyche) (02/19/91)
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >Add to this that NeXT has the DSP and 16-bit CD-quality stereo-audio, >Oh, you can't have EVERYTHING for $3000. You just have to decide _what_ >you need most. (Amiga, for example doesn't really have sound on $3000 >range - only because of the insufficent quality for anything more than >games.) Okay I have tried to stay out off all flame wars reguarding my computer is better than yours. Over the years I have found that all compters have there place in the world. But I have to point something out here. The Amiga does have 8 bit sound, that is true, and so does the MacII. So the NeXT has 16 bit audio, thats nice. But what good is it? The people that I know who do real work in sound editing and producing all use Mac II, Amiga and Atari STs, and you know why they do. Simple, they edit the sound on the computer and send it trought a MIDI port to a dedacated instrument. No one in their right mind is gonna use a computers built in sound chips, at least not a Pro. Now does MIDI ports exist for the NeXT, is sound manuplating software there? Most of the people I know use MacII and Amigas and non that I know use the NeXT, hell most of them didn't know what it was or had even heard of Stevie Jobs. Reason simple because it doesn't have MIDI or the software to support it. -- // Jeff Hyche There can be only one! \\ // Usenet: hychejw@infonode.ingr.com \X/ Freenet: ap255@po.CWRU.Edu
gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) (02/20/91)
From article <1991Feb19.142411.17216@infonode.ingr.com>, by hychejw@infonode.ingr.com (Jeff W. Hyche): > Most of the people I know use MacII and Amigas and non that I > know use the NeXT, hell most of them didn't know what it was or had even > heard of Stevie Jobs. Reason simple because it doesn't have MIDI or the > software to support it. > -- Wait. Don't tell me. Before the NeXT maniac, peter, says something, let me tell you the solution: "I'm sure they have one for the SCSI port." With all of this crap on the scsi bus, I wonder. Doesn't scsi have a limit of how many devices can be on the bus? Seven? Do I hear seven??? Going once, Going twice "eight!!!" The man in the funny blue hat says eight! Going once, going twice, SOLD! To the man in the funny blue hat!!! :) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu | Amigas, Amigas everywhere, but not a one can think. ----Gregory R Block---- | Where's an AI when you need one? ________________________| A Mac, by any other name, would smell like a lawsuit.
kent@swrinde.nde.swri.edu (Kent D. Polk) (02/21/91)
In article <9643@uwm.edu> gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu writes: > With all of this crap on the scsi bus, I wonder. Doesn't scsi have >a limit of how many devices can be on the bus? Seven? Do I hear seven??? >Going once, Going twice > > "eight!!!" You forgot about logical subunits. There can be 256 logical subunits for each device. Thus, if there is one host and every peripheral is a logical subunit there can be a big mess of peripherals on the bus. And thats for each host controller. Kent Polk: Southwest Research Institute (512) 522-2882 Internet : kent@swrinde.nde.swri.edu UUCP : $ {cs.utexas.edu, gatech!petro, sun!texsun}!swrinde!kent
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (02/23/91)
In article <1991Feb19.142411.17216@infonode.ingr.com>, hychejw@infonode.ingr.com (Jeff W. Hyche) writes: > jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: > >>Add to this that NeXT has the DSP and 16-bit CD-quality stereo-audio, > >>Oh, you can't have EVERYTHING for $3000. You just have to decide _what_ >>you need most. (Amiga, for example doesn't really have sound on $3000 >>range - only because of the insufficent quality for anything more than >>games.) Uurgh. I think I will try to clear the water a bit... > > Okay I have tried to stay out off all flame wars reguarding my > computer is better than yours. Over the years I have found that all > compters have there place in the world. But I have to point something > out here. The Amiga does have 8 bit sound, that is true, and so does > the MacII. So the NeXT has 16 bit audio, thats nice. But what good is > it? The people that I know who do real work in sound editing and > producing all use Mac II, Amiga and Atari STs, and you know why they do. > Simple, they edit the sound on the computer and send it trought a MIDI Editing _synthesizer_ sounds is quite different from editing samples. You _can_ send samples through MIDI but it is so slooow. > port to a dedacated instrument. No one in their right mind is gonna use > a computers built in sound chips, at least not a Pro. Now does MIDI Well, SoundTools for MAC has the same Motorola 560001 chip than NeXT does. So do many other boards. There are boards containing 8 DSPs and more for NeXT (and surely for other computers, too). > ports exist for the NeXT, is sound manuplating software there? You can use the MAC midi interfaces on NeXT, too. NeXT isn't the ulitmate _MIDI_ platform, but the people at music research seldom use MIDI anyway. MIDI is just a slowish interface for commercial keyboards etc. (It would be nice to see a good MIDI sequencer on NeXT, though.) > Most of the people I know use MacII and Amigas and non that I > know use the NeXT, hell most of them didn't know what it was or had even > heard of Stevie Jobs. Reason simple because it doesn't have MIDI or the > software to support it. NeXT doesn't have many _MIDI_ programs, but MIDI is a kind of a dinosaur (or will be) anyway. NeXT is more suitable for more advanced music usage, like Csound etc. _Any_ computer can handle MIDI. I have had an Atari MEGA4 for 5 years and I have used with several MIDI synthesizers, etc. Now I want to leave that behind and move to something different and more flexible. > -- > // Jeff Hyche > There can be only one! \\ // Usenet: hychejw@infonode.ingr.com > \X/ Freenet: ap255@po.CWRU.Edu
gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) (02/24/91)
From article <1991Feb23.014310.4975@cc.helsinki.fi>, by jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi: >> >> Okay I have tried to stay out off all flame wars reguarding my >> computer is better than yours. Over the years I have found that all >> compters have there place in the world. But I have to point something >> out here. The Amiga does have 8 bit sound, that is true, and so does >> the MacII. So the NeXT has 16 bit audio, thats nice. But what good is >> it? The people that I know who do real work in sound editing and >> producing all use Mac II, Amiga and Atari STs, and you know why they do. >> Simple, they edit the sound on the computer and send it trought a MIDI > > Editing _synthesizer_ sounds is quite different from editing samples. > You _can_ send samples through MIDI but it is so slooow. > Yes, but you only need to do it once. Once it's through, you can save it on the master, or on the computer... And most master keyboards do have disk drives, yes. At least most of the good and useful ones do... > > Well, SoundTools for MAC has the same Motorola 560001 chip than NeXT > does. So do many other boards. There are boards containing 8 DSPs and > more for NeXT (and surely for other computers, too). > Oh, that's great. I'm sure there ARE boards containing 8 or more dsp's. Of course, only the CUBE can use BOARDS!!! The NeXTStation is "scuzzy cludges", not "state of the art boards".... It has no "slots". And since that is the comparison at hand... >> ports exist for the NeXT, is sound manuplating software there? > > You can use the MAC midi interfaces on NeXT, too. NeXT isn't the > ulitmate _MIDI_ platform, but the people at music research seldom use > MIDI anyway. MIDI is just a slowish interface for commercial keyboards > etc. (It would be nice to see a good MIDI sequencer on NeXT, though.) > It may be slow, and it may be poor at times. But it is a STANDARD, it is WIDELY USED, and it is COMMON among electronic synthesizers and instruments. The support is there. The interface is there. The standard is there. The NeXTStation is NOT. The Amiga IS. I'd say that's a plus. >> Most of the people I know use MacII and Amigas and non that I >> know use the NeXT, hell most of them didn't know what it was or had even >> heard of Stevie Jobs. Reason simple because it doesn't have MIDI or the >> software to support it. > > NeXT doesn't have many _MIDI_ programs, but MIDI is a kind of a dinosaur > (or will be) anyway. NeXT is more suitable for more advanced music > usage, like Csound etc. _Any_ computer can handle MIDI. I have had an > Atari MEGA4 for 5 years and I have used with several MIDI synthesizers, > etc. Now I want to leave that behind and move to something different and > more flexible. > Yes, but that doesn't exist for it, either. It's a lovely idea, but it is not as widely used, or as common as MIDI. Also, not ANY computer can. But the ATARI systems are built around it, and most 16-32 bit processors can handle it. It's nice that you want to leave it behind, but on the next, YOU DIDN'T LEAVE ANYTHING! You have gone from a computer with GREAT MIDI support, and gone to a computer with support for a built-in DSP. And that will replace MIDI??? I believe that maybe there are ways to get around the SLUGGISHNESS of MIDI. That is part of my job... I've found a way to get around most of the problems that occur. But, unless everyone plans on a "build-it-yourself" response on MIDI software for the NEXT, you're up **** creek without a paddle, if you have no software... Are there any CSOUND implementations for the NeXT? Or is it as much vaporware as MIDI on the NeXT? Or do you need to use the Macintosh interface for THAT, TOO??? -- gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu | Amigas, Amigas everywhere, but not a one can think. ----Gregory R Block---- | Where's an AI when you need one? ________________________| A Mac, by any other name, would smell like a lawsuit Roses are red, Violets are blue: Go buy a Mac, and you'll be screwed too...