jeremy@math.lsa.umich.edu (Jeremy Teitelbaum) (03/12/91)
I am currently considering purchase of an Amiga 3000 and I have been following the discussion in .advocacy, as well in .hardware and .apps, for a couple of weeks. Now I am ready to actively solicit opinions. I have extensive UNIX experience (I am typing this on a Sun IPC running X11 in my office) and I am finally looking to buy a computer for home. I would like to get something which I can use for my main applications, while at the same time allowing my kids to have some fun (and maybe learn something about computers.) I essentially rely on TeX, Maple, and Emacs at work. I would also like to be able to do some financial stuff on my home system -- like print checks, do my taxes, etc. I am willing to make a substantial monetary investment in this home system, and I plan to buy a laser printer with the CPU. As I see it, my choices are: Apple IIsi/5M RAM/80M hard drive + HP laserjet IIP with appletalk/postscript (or Apple "Personal Laserwriter NT") Amiga 3000/5M RAM/100M drive + HP laserjet IIP with postscript + VGA (or better) monitor (I really don't like the way the 1950 looks.) Since I'm talking to Amiga fanatics here, let me tell you my reservations about the Amiga (since the amiga system is probably cheaper...) 1. Will Commodore survive in the US? 2. If the system breaks, can I get it fixed? 3. Is my selection of "canned" software too limited? I've followed the recent discussion about Amiga wordprocessors, for example, with some concern; Although I use TeX, my wife and kids are happy with something like Microsoft Word for letters and school papers. 4. Is the Amiga a hacker's machine, which needs a lot of fiddling to get it to do stuff? I spend many hours at work administering a substantial UNIX network; I don't need a computer at home that has to be tinkered with endlessly. 5. What is the overall hardware quality like? Do the keyboards, mice, etc. hold up over time? And of course anything else you might want to tell me. Just to prevent my own flame destruction, let me make the following stipulations about the Amiga: 1. In terms of hardware specifications, it is a better buy than the Mac. 2. I agree that it has a very sophisticated architecture for a PC and that, particularly for color graphics, it has better performance than the Mac. 3. Most importantly to me, it is a relatively open system in comparison with the Mac. 4. Apple Computer is a parasite which should be boycotted because of its anti-competitive lawsuits and its secrecy about its system design (actually, this point means a lot to me as I have a lot of sympathy with the FSF, and if you can convince me that Amiga is the way to go you will help my conscience considerably...) I await your advice.... Jeremy Teitelbaum Math Dept. U. of Illinois -- Chicago Chicago, IL 60680 312-996-2371
al158305@mtecv2.mty.itesm.mx (Gustavo Cordova Avila) (03/12/91)
jeremy@math.lsa.umich.edu (Jeremy Teitelbaum) writes: >learn something about computers.) I essentially rely on TeX, >Maple, and Emacs at work. I would also like to be able Those three run on the amiga, so you'll be able to do your work at home too :) >to do some financial stuff on my home system -- like print checks, >do my taxes, etc. There's also some progs that'll do exactly that which you'r looking for, you should buy some amiga mags and do some reading, just a suggestion. >Since I'm talking to Amiga fanatics here, let me tell you my reservations >about the Amiga (since the amiga system is probably cheaper...) >1. Will Commodore survive in the US? I really believe so, it's just starting to look good right now :) >2. If the system breaks, can I get it fixed? Can't help you here. I have an A1000 ( *real* old ) that hasen't given me a *single* problem in about... 5 years, almost. Well, ok, so the delete (not backspace) key jumped out, but I can get to glueing it back in :) >3. Is my selection of "canned" software too limited? I've >followed the recent discussion about Amiga wordprocessors, for >example, with some concern; Although I use TeX, my wife and kids >are happy with something like Microsoft Word for letters and school >papers. I think you should look at ProWrite 3 or Excellence 2 for this. ProWrite 3 is supposedly as easy to use as (bleargh) macwrite, or something like that. And Excellence has built in postscript output support. >4. Is the Amiga a hacker's machine, which needs a lot of fiddling >to get it to do stuff? I spend many hours at work administering a >substantial UNIX network; I don't need a computer at home that has >to be tinkered with endlessly. I really don't know, but a lot of people have amigas as usenet sites.. I'm looking forward to doing mine like that too. >5. What is the overall hardware quality like? Do the keyboards, >mice, etc. hold up over time? >And of course anything else you might want to tell me. Well... I like mine a lot, even if it only has 512k (ok, ok, I'm already thinking of upgrading :) >Just to prevent my own flame destruction, let me make the following >stipulations about the Amiga: >1. In terms of hardware specifications, it is a better buy than the Mac. yup! >2. I agree that it has a very sophisticated architecture for a PC and that, >particularly for color graphics, it has better performance than the Mac. I'd like to see a 24 color bit chipset out though.. but what do you want for the price? :) >3. Most importantly to me, it is a relatively open system in comparison >with the Mac. YEAH! And include the NeXT station in the closed box list. :p >4. Apple Computer is a parasite which should be boycotted because of >its anti-competitive lawsuits and its secrecy about its system design >(actually, this point means a lot to me as I have a lot of sympathy with >the FSF, and if you can convince me that Amiga is the way to go you will >help my conscience considerably...) Well, in case you want to know, there's *tons* of good quality free and shareware software out there. I'm starting to use a pascal compiler, and there's 2 or 3 C compilers too. The niceness of the machine really built a nice environment around it (talking about people). Besides, where can you get 1.9 Mb/sec transfer rates with a mac or a pc? :) >I await your advice.... >Jeremy Teitelbaum >Math Dept. >U. of Illinois -- Chicago >Chicago, IL 60680 >312-996-2371 Gustavo Cordova -- | From Mexico! Majoring in Electronics Systems Engineering, | | ITESM presents to you: Gustavo Cordova Avila!!! | | And then I woke up :) +------------------------------------+ +-----------------------+
manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) (03/12/91)
In article <1991Mar11.161412.14449@math.lsa.umich.edu>, jeremy@math.lsa.umich.edu (Jeremy Teitelbaum) writes: > > [Stuff Deleted] > > I have extensive UNIX experience (I am typing this on a Sun IPC running > X11 in my office) and I am finally looking to buy a computer for home. > I would like to get something which I can use for my main applications, > while at the same time allowing my kids to have some fun (and maybe > learn something about computers.) I essentially rely on TeX, > Maple, and Emacs at work. I would also like to be able > to do some financial stuff on my home system -- like print checks, > do my taxes, etc. > > I am willing to make a substantial monetary investment in this > home system, and I plan to buy a laser printer with the CPU. > > As I see it, my choices are: > > Apple IIsi/5M RAM/80M hard drive + HP laserjet IIP with appletalk/postscript > (or Apple "Personal Laserwriter NT") > > > Amiga 3000/5M RAM/100M drive + HP laserjet IIP with postscript + > VGA (or better) monitor (I really don't like the way the 1950 looks.) > > Since I'm talking to Amiga fanatics here, let me tell you my reservations > about the Amiga (since the amiga system is probably cheaper...) > > 1. Will Commodore survive in the US? I certainly believe that the worst is over for Commodore. They survived a very rough time in microcomputer history. I think the microcmputer world is finally noticing that not all good ideas (or affordable ones) come from Apple and IBM. Commodore stock recently has been very exciting, especially if you purchased it at $5 a share. I am not a fortune teller, but I bet with my pocketbook that Commodore will be around for a long long time in the United States. > 2. If the system breaks, can I get it fixed? Absolutely! In fact the A3000 is considered a "professional" system and therefore is granted 1 year on-site service (at your home!), or you can choose to have your local Amiga dealer repair it. This is so much better than having to package it up, send it via Federal Express and wait. I bought a computer that costs professional dollars, it is nice to be treated as such. Hopefully I will not have to test this "repair" concept. :-) > 3. Is my selection of "canned" software too limited? I've > followed the recent discussion about Amiga wordprocessors, for > example, with some concern; Although I use TeX, my wife and kids > are happy with something like Microsoft Word for letters and school > papers. TeX certainly is available and popular with most of the techies out here, but I dare say your wife should be more than pleased with Pro-Write or WordPerfect. I know WordPerfect gets a bad rap on the Amiga (and some of it deserved mind you!) but it does do a very nice job. > 4. Is the Amiga a hacker's machine, which needs a lot of fiddling > to get it to do stuff? I spend many hours at work administering a > substantial UNIX network; I don't need a computer at home that has > to be tinkered with endlessly. I think this is where the Amiga truly shines. It is a hackers machine AND it is a machine that can be as simple to use as a Mac. The Mac forces you into doing things _its_ way, and for some folks who just want to get a job done that is fine. The Amiga does this with its workbench, if you however want to do complex inner-process communication with AREXX etc. etc, you can do that as well. > 5. What is the overall hardware quality like? Do the keyboards, > mice, etc. hold up over time? The quality appears to me to be exceptionaly good. Mouses and keyboards are generally religious items though. :-) > > And of course anything else you might want to tell me. > One _very_ important thing that is missing in your comparison. You are _used_ to having multitasking at your finger tips. You will _really_ miss it on the Mac. The Amiga 3000 has a very snappy and responsive multitasking operating system that does not seem to get in the way, like some multitasking systems I have seen. Not only that, X Windows is available for your Amiga under AmigaDOS or you can run UNIX. For that matter you can emulate a Mac, an IBM PC, or a C64! > Just to prevent my own flame destruction, let me make the following > stipulations about the Amiga: > > 1. In terms of hardware specifications, it is a better buy than the Mac. I disagree. > 2. I agree that it has a very sophisticated architecture for a PC and that, > particularly for color graphics, it has better performance than the Mac. I agree. > 3. Most importantly to me, it is a relatively open system in comparison > with the Mac. I agree. > 4. Apple Computer is a parasite which should be boycotted because of > its anti-competitive lawsuits and its secrecy about its system design > (actually, this point means a lot to me as I have a lot of sympathy with > the FSF, and if you can convince me that Amiga is the way to go you will > help my conscience considerably...) I believe you just answered your own question. :-) Rule 4 seems to overide all other rules. :-) > > I await your advice.... > Consider it given! > > Jeremy Teitelbaum > Math Dept. > U. of Illinois -- Chicago > Chicago, IL 60680 > 312-996-2371 -mark= +--------+ ================================================== | \/ | Mark D. Manes "Mr. AmigaVision, The 32 bit guy" | /\ \/ | manes@vger.nsu.edu | / | (804) 683-2532 "Make up your own mind! - AMIGA" +--------+ ==================================================
ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (03/12/91)
In article <1991Mar11.161412.14449@math.lsa.umich.edu> jeremy@math.uic.edu (Jeremy Teitelbaum) writes: >Apple IIsi/5M RAM/80M hard drive + HP laserjet IIP with appletalk/postscript An Apple IIsi?? :-) (Of course, you meant the Mac si) OK, and now for My Humble Opinions: >1. Will Commodore survive in the US? Probably survive. Never flourish. In the US "success" is defined by the amount of business purchaser dollars you can capture (the business of America really *is* business). The clones have locked that up tight, it doesn't matter *how* good your alternative platform is. Look at NeXT, a far more sophisticated platform than the A3000, and with the NeXTstation a faster and cheaper one too. They even have the PC heavy-hitting developers writing for it, Lotus, Ashton-Tate, WordPerfect. The best estimates show about 10K units shipped. This is abysmal, and I predict the NeXT will never really make a showing on businessmen's desks. Neither will the Amiga. No matter what. >2. If the system breaks, can I get it fixed? Yes. This is getting better and better in fact. You just have to find a good dealer. There are a few around. >3. Is my selection of "canned" software too limited? The Amiga has about one or two of most things. Yes choices are limited, and packages don't measure up to PC packages, where fierce competition has forced vendors to refine their products or perish. Whether choices are "too limited" will end up being you own subjective opinion, depending on whether you find software you're pleased with. >4. Is the Amiga a hacker's machine, which needs a lot of fiddling >to get it to do stuff? If you want to fiddle there are plenty of things to fiddle with. If not then it's very useable right from the box. >5. What is the overall hardware quality like? Do the keyboards, >mice, etc. hold up over time? I think the hardware is of good quality, excellent compared to the clone market PC stuff. I personally haven't had a keyboard or mouse fail, on the Amigas (an A1000, an A2000, and now an A2500) I've used. I love the keyboard. -- First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / \\ / / Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/
cseaman@sequent.UUCP (Chris "The Bartman" Seaman) (03/13/91)
jeremy@math.lsa.umich.edu (Jeremy Teitelbaum) writes:
< I have extensive UNIX experience (I am typing this on a Sun IPC running
< X11 in my office) and I am finally looking to buy a computer for home.
< I would like to get something which I can use for my main applications,
< while at the same time allowing my kids to have some fun (and maybe
< learn something about computers.) I essentially rely on TeX,
< Maple, and Emacs at work. I would also like to be able
< to do some financial stuff on my home system -- like print checks,
< do my taxes, etc.
As others have already pointed out, TeX, Maple, and Emacs are all
available on the Amiga. I couldn't give an objective opinion of the
quality of the Emacs versions available (I am a die-hard vi user), but
the Amiga versions of TeX and Maple compare very favorably to versions
available for other platforms.
< Apple [Mac] IIsi/5M RAM/80M hard drive + HP laserjet IIP
< with appletalk/postscript (or Apple "Personal Laserwriter NT")
<
< Amiga 3000/5M RAM/100M drive + HP laserjet IIP with postscript +
< VGA (or better) monitor (I really don't like the way the 1950 looks.)
If you do choose an Amiga, I would be very cautious about which monitor
you select. You may not like the 1950, but other monitors have a
tendency to leave a black border around the displayed area of the
screen.
< Since I'm talking to Amiga fanatics here, let me tell you my reservations
< about the Amiga (since the amiga system is probably cheaper...)
We are an impassioned bunch, aren't we?
< 1. Will Commodore survive in the US?
While it would be nice to be able to give this a definitive 'yes', no
one can be entirely certain whether any company will survive in any
given market. However, I feel confident that Commodore will survive,
though, as someone else said, they may not 'flourish'.
< 2. If the system breaks, can I get it fixed?
Yes, you should be able to get your system repaired in a reasonable
manner, provided you work with a knowledgeable and reputable dealer.
Fortunately, my vintage A1000 (5 1/2 years young), and my more recent
A2500/20 have both been spared the need for a trip to the repair
bench.
< 3. Is my selection of "canned" software too limited? I've
< followed the recent discussion about Amiga wordprocessors, for
< example, with some concern; Although I use TeX, my wife and kids
< are happy with something like Microsoft Word for letters and school
< papers.
The list of canned software packages is growing daily, and the quality
has dramatically improved over the last couple of years. For word
processing, my wife is quite pleased with ProWrite, and when I need
higher quality output, I filter the document through ProScript, then
print it to a PostScript printer (or to my DeskJet, using Post, a
distributable PostScript interpreter for the Amiga).
< 4. Is the Amiga a hacker's machine, which needs a lot of fiddling
< to get it to do stuff? I spend many hours at work administering a
< substantial UNIX network; I don't need a computer at home that has
< to be tinkered with endlessly.
To some extent, the Amiga is still a hacker's machine, but there are
many non-hackers (now numbering, I suppose, in the millions) who are
able to use their Amigas quite efficiently. Although I can appreciate
your sentiments, I must admit that I find the tinkering on my Amiga to
be quite enjoyable, and a refreshing break at times.
As an aside, you mentioned that one of the uses for a computer in your
home would be to allow your children to learn about them. If, by this,
you mean to learn about a particular software program, then this need
can be served equally well by a Mac or an Amiga. If, however, you want
them to learn a little about how computers function, they can, in my
opinion, learn more, and more quickly, by using an Amiga. Most of the
Mac users I know still don't know much beyond pointing and clicking,
although some have been 'using' the machine for years.
< 5. What is the overall hardware quality like? Do the keyboards,
< mice, etc. hold up over time?
Occasionally, you will find a bad mouse, or a problematic keyboard,
but no more than in any other platform, at least from my personal
experience. My 5+ year old A1000 mouse is still working quite
well, but I did have to replace one of the button switches on my
2500 mouse. There are SEVERAL third party mice available, however,
as well as the plethora of IBM compatible BUS mice, which should
work well, but do require an adapter cable.
< And of course anything else you might want to tell me.
I would heartily recommend an Amiga, but I would also forewarn you
that there will be a learning curve, albeit a brief one.
True, I can get things done on a Mac (or an MS-DOS machine, for that
matter), but I can get things done with my Amiga, AND have fun in the
process.
< Just to prevent my own flame destruction, let me make the following
< stipulations about the Amiga:
<
< 1. In terms of hardware specifications, it is a better buy than the Mac.
< 2. I agree that it has a very sophisticated architecture for a PC and that,
< particularly for color graphics, it has better performance than the Mac.
< 3. Most importantly to me, it is a relatively open system in comparison
< with the Mac.
< 4. Apple Computer is a parasite which should be boycotted because of
< its anti-competitive lawsuits and its secrecy about its system design
< (actually, this point means a lot to me as I have a lot of sympathy with
< the FSF, and if you can convince me that Amiga is the way to go you will
< help my conscience considerably...)
You are obviously a very astute individual. :-)
Regards,
Chris
--
Chris (Insert phrase here) Seaman | ///
cseaman@sequent.com <or> | /// Make up your own
...!uunet!sequent!cseaman | \\\/// mind.
The Home of the Killer Smiley | \XX/ekrimen@ecst.csuchico.edu (Ed Krimen) (03/13/91)
In article <731.27dc06ae@vger.nsu.edu> manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) writes: >> >> 1. Will Commodore survive in the US? > >I certainly believe that the worst is over for Commodore. They survived >a very rough time in microcomputer history. I think the microcmputer >world is finally noticing that not all good ideas (or affordable ones) >come from Apple and IBM. Commodore stock recently has been very exciting, >especially if you purchased it at $5 a share. > I must disagree with your point that the microcomputer world is finally noticing that not all good ideas (or affordable ones) come from Apple and IBM. Certainly, as more and more people come in contact with others who have non-Apple and non-IBM systems, it may seem that way. While hanging around comp.sys.amiga.*, it may seem that way, but there are still others who only come in contact with other IBM and Mac users, who 'never see the light.' Look how far back-ordered Apple is with the Mac Classic. I think that this example demonstrates perhaps that it's unfortunately just the opposite -- that people still see Apple and IBM as the 'saviors.' >I am not a fortune teller, but I bet with my pocketbook that Commodore >will be around for a long long time in the United States. I agree here. I don't think that Commodore (nor Atari :^) are going anywhere. They'll be around for some time. -- Ed Krimen ............................................... ||| Video Production Major, California State University, Chico ||| INTERNET: ekrimen@ecst.csuchico.edu FREENET: al661 / | \ SysOp, Fuji BBS: 916-894-1261 FIDONET: 1:119/4.0
fhwri%CONNCOLL.BITNET@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu (03/13/91)
> Since I'm talking to Amiga fanatics here, let me tell you my reservations > about the Amiga (since the amiga system is probably cheaper...) > > 1. Will Commodore survive in the US? It's a company in pretty good shape these days; its stock did VERY well this winter, and worldwide sales are excellent (which cannot but help US sales and support). > 2. If the system breaks, can I get it fixed? You certainly can. You get a year warranty and free UPS pickup/delivery for machines under warranty. > 3. Is my selection of "canned" software too limited? I've > followed the recent discussion about Amiga wordprocessors, for > example, with some concern; Although I use TeX, my wife and kids > are happy with something like Microsoft Word for letters and school > papers. I too wish that MS Word was available, but WordPerfect is available, and rumor has it that a big upgrade is coming for this workhorse. For DTP, Professional Page or Pagestream would be hard to beat, and Amiga TeX is super, from what the users say. > 4. Is the Amiga a hacker's machine, which needs a lot of fiddling > to get it to do stuff? I spend many hours at work administering a > substantial UNIX network; I don't need a computer at home that has > to be tinkered with endlessly. It's a hacker's delight, in that the operating system can be reconfigured, and new commands inserted at will, but it's not that hard for a novice. You'd like it... > 5. What is the overall hardware quality like? Do the keyboards, > mice, etc. hold up over time? I find the hardware quality to be very good indeed; mice do wear out, of course, but it's no worse than other manufacturers, IMHO. --Rick Wrigley fhwri@conncoll.bitnet ~~~second-hand smoke is THEFT~~~
rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (03/13/91)
In article <1991Mar12.220732.12078@ecst.csuchico.edu> ekrimen@ecst.csuchico.edu (Ed Krimen) writes: >In article <731.27dc06ae@vger.nsu.edu> manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) writes: >>> >>> 1. Will Commodore survive in the US? >> >>I certainly believe that the worst is over for Commodore. They survived >>a very rough time in microcomputer history. I think the microcmputer >>world is finally noticing that not all good ideas (or affordable ones) >>come from Apple and IBM. Commodore stock recently has been very exciting, >>especially if you purchased it at $5 a share. >> > >I must disagree with your point that the microcomputer world is finally >noticing that not all good ideas (or affordable ones) come from Apple and >IBM. Certainly, as more and more people come in contact with others who >have non-Apple and non-IBM systems, it may seem that way. While hanging >around comp.sys.amiga.*, it may seem that way, but there are still others >who only come in contact with other IBM and Mac users, who 'never see the >light.' Look how far back-ordered Apple is with the Mac Classic. I think >that this example demonstrates perhaps that it's unfortunately just the >opposite -- that people still see Apple and IBM as the 'saviors.' I'm sure NewTek is probably equally backordered for the Toaster. The reason for this is advertising. IBM has the business market locked up. They always will. The wildcard is the consumer market. Until recently, Commodore had the most sucessful consumer home machine...The COmmodore 64. Since October, Commodore has grown 200% with stocks zooming from 4 1/2 to a high of 18 7/8. NewTek is living proof that advertising works. NewTek has been present at every major user group show, comdex, ces, Neb, Mac Expo, IBM expo, etc. They have advertised in major magazines and received recognition in others. For now, I am pleased with the market penetration and recognition Commodore is getting. >>I am not a fortune teller, but I bet with my pocketbook that Commodore >>will be around for a long long time in the United States. > >I agree here. I don't think that Commodore (nor Atari :^) are going >anywhere. They'll be around for some time. Where do you expect them to go? Even the mighty Apple can't penetrate IBM's business market. COmmodore is not going to take any business away from IBM, but I predict it will grab a finite amount of Apple's market. Of course, neither Apple nor IBM can penetrate Commodore's European strong hold on the game market. 8 million C64's and 2 million Amiga's. Again, sucess depends on how you measure it. No US company is going to take IBM's business market. There are billions of dollars tied up in IBM's, business's aren't going to chuck all that invested money to upgrade to a new architecure when PC's can be kludged to fit anyone's needs provided you throw enough money at them. SO what other markets are there? There's the personal consumer market, the game market, the science/education market, and the workstation market. Commodore has a good chance of penetrating all of those, especially #2. >-- > Ed Krimen ............................................... > ||| Video Production Major, California State University, Chico > ||| INTERNET: ekrimen@ecst.csuchico.edu FREENET: al661 > / | \ SysOp, Fuji BBS: 916-894-1261 FIDONET: 1:119/4.0
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (03/14/91)
In article <55065@sequent.UUCP> cseaman@sequent.UUCP (Chris "The Bartman" Seaman) writes: >jeremy@math.lsa.umich.edu (Jeremy Teitelbaum) writes: > >< 2. If the system breaks, can I get it fixed? > >Yes, you should be able to get your system repaired in a reasonable >manner, provided you work with a knowledgeable and reputable dealer. >Fortunately, my vintage A1000 (5 1/2 years young), and my more recent >A2500/20 have both been spared the need for a trip to the repair >bench. > Has everyone forgotten already? Free onsite service for the first year of ownership is automatic to all but A500 owners. -- Ethan Upon leaving office, Ronald Reagan began renting an office in the penthouse of the Fox Plaza, the Los Angeles high-rise used as the location for the terrorist movie "Die Hard".
navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David C. Navas) (03/15/91)
In article <1991Mar11.161412.14449@math.lsa.umich.edu> jeremy@math.uic.edu (Jeremy Teitelbaum) writes: >I am currently considering purchase of an Amiga 3000 and I have been >following the discussion in .advocacy, as well in .hardware and >.apps, for a couple of weeks. Now I am ready to actively solicit >opinions. You poor sap :) But seriously. >I have extensive UNIX experience (I am typing this on a Sun IPC running >X11 in my office) and I am finally looking to buy a computer for home. >I would like to get something which I can use for my main applications, >while at the same time allowing my kids to have some fun (and maybe >learn something about computers.) I essentially rely on TeX, >Maple, and Emacs at work. I would also like to be able >to do some financial stuff on my home system -- like print checks, >do my taxes, etc. TeX, Maple, and various wonderful text editors are all available on the Amiga. Maple will really cost you from what I hear... I am fearful that the financial side of the scene will be rather sparse -- the good news is that the Amiga will run Mac and/or IBM software, so.... >As I see it, my choices are: > >Apple IIsi/5M RAM/80M hard drive + HP laserjet IIP with appletalk/postscript > (or Apple "Personal Laserwriter NT") > > >Amiga 3000/5M RAM/100M drive + HP laserjet IIP with postscript + >VGA (or better) monitor (I really don't like the way the 1950 looks.) [My Nec 4d works well, and is *mucho* sexier than the 1950. Better be for what I paid for it...] >1. Will Commodore survive in the US? Absolutely. One cannot tell exactly what sorts of things they will be limited to, but Commodore isn't losing money anymore -- their Amiga sales are doing very well, and they've announced two new Un*x configurations, and possibly the A3500 at CeBit, although who can really tell... >2. If the system breaks, can I get it fixed? If you buy an Amiga3000, you have 48hour in-house warantee. They'll come to *you* -- that's something I haven't heard about from Apple. And it is certainly *not* standard from Apple. >3. Is my selection of "canned" software too limited? I've >followed the recent discussion about Amiga wordprocessors, for >example, with some concern; Although I use TeX, my wife and kids >are happy with something like Microsoft Word for letters and school >papers. This is the real limitation of the system. My guess is that software will become rather better with the release of 2.0, but I certainly wouldn't guarantee it. Fortunately you can buy an AT (or an AT card) *extremely* cheaply, and run Microsoft Word on that. Personally, however, I have found ProWrite to be completely adequate for the job of letter writing and school papers. It's not Microsoft Word, but it's not wordstar either... >4. Is the Amiga a hacker's machine, which needs a lot of fiddling >to get it to do stuff? I spend many hours at work administering a >substantial UNIX network; I don't need a computer at home that has >to be tinkered with endlessly. My A3000 has required *no* tinkering (except the addition of countless Megs of RAM :) :)). My A500 was another story. Many times have I thanked the Lord that AmigaDos != Un*x Of course, you will have the initial curve to overcome, but you have that with any system. (Remember the post from the Mac proponent? "If you had *read* your manual you would have known that 'command-.' cancelled those type of requesters." Command-. indeed! How about the ESC key you nerds...) It also depends on what you want to do. Want to use all the PD stuff? You'll be hacking for sure! Want to use ProWrite?, stick it into the harddrive and away you'll go. Perhaps a good question to ask: who will be using what? You (as the expert) will probably be using the kinds of software that need tinkering to get to work (initially -- not repeatedly as with Unix), whereas your family will have a plug-and-go affair. The Amiga makes more things possible than with the Mac, the Mac makes fewer things a lot easier. The question is can you do away with the things the Mac won't be able to do? >5. What is the overall hardware quality like? Do the keyboards, >mice, etc. hold up over time? Mice will have problems if you play games on it that require the leftbutton to be constantly pressed. Guess what? Over time that switch will need a replacement. I've had my A3000 since ~august. It has given me a sum total of *ZERO* problems. If you decide to add memory, you'll have loads of fun taking the system apart. As you might have guessed, a lot of things are really crammed in there -- it's better than taking an A2000 floppy drive assembly apart, but it's not a Mac pop-drop-pop-and play affair either. [Of course, I haven't seen how the IIsi looks...] >And of course anything else you might want to tell me. It seems like you want a system that will do everything for you. Not surprising, so would I. The problem is that such a system does not exist -- so we deal with what we got. The way I looked at it was that I can *program* my system to do what *I* want it to do. I wouldn't even know where to begin with the Mac -- many things are simply counter-intuitive (command-3 saves the screen image to disk, huh???), some are impossible (multi-tasking?) and many things leave me with a dry taste in my mouth (there's no relocation done for absolute addresses -- so they're just ignored??!!!). For my Amiga I wish that half of the PD was polished up, given a decent manual, good user-interfaces and *sold*. I can't imagine why they aren't. Given half a chance things like parNet, DNet, mandelbrot programs in the dozens, scheme, etc. would be decent commercial successes, and would add to the typical user usable base of software. There is a lot to be said for shareware. A lot to be said against it too. Oh well. In sum: Cmdre etc. have a lot to learn about user interfaces, and detailed attention to them -- number of icons on the screen, menu placement, etc. Apple etc. have a lot to learn about making machine architectures and operating systems. Which of these are important and why? Who do you think will make it further faster? Which company will abandon their current line of machines for more profitable ones? Etc. etc. Hard questions that are inevitably best answered by yourself, unfortunately. >Just to prevent my own flame destruction, let me make the following >stipulations about the Amiga: >1. In terms of hardware specifications, it is a better buy than the Mac. Absolutely, without equivocation. >2. I agree that it has a very sophisticated architecture for a PC and that, >particularly for color graphics, it has better performance than the Mac. Mostly true, needs a decent device-independent graphics system -- all things with time. >3. Most importantly to me, it is a relatively open system in comparison >with the Mac. Oh yes! I have just recently been paging through Mac manuals, trying to figure out where I can get *real* technical documentation for it. I have come to the simple conclusion, that even in the hotbed of Mac activity (the Bay Area), there simply isn't any. Lots of guidelines for creating *standard* looking programs, but pretty sparse thereafter. Sad, really -- their user interface is so nice it's a shame they shafted programmer's interface. >4. Apple Computer is a parasite which should be boycotted because of >its anti-competitive lawsuits and its secrecy about its system design >(actually, this point means a lot to me as I have a lot of sympathy with >the FSF, and if you can convince me that Amiga is the way to go you will >help my conscience considerably...) Well, maybe. Maybe Apple just went too far copying Xerox, and ended up copying their lawyer image as well. If we're lucky, they'll stagnate just like Xerox has as well, and better, more innovative designs will make it to the market. >Jeremy Teitelbaum >Math Dept. >U. of Illinois -- Chicago >Chicago, IL 60680 >312-996-2371 Whew, hope that mess helped! Take care, and the best of luck, whichever machine you buy. David Navas navas@cory.berkeley.edu "Oh, that's an Apple??? I though they just shot themselves in the head..." [Also try c186br@holden, c260-ay@ara and c184-ap@torus]