rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (03/18/91)
Check out this article from the 3-15-91 issue of the Wall Street Journal. "Another proposed product...would represent Apple's entry into consumer electronics. This `living room' system combines a compact-disk player and a stripped down Macintosh (minus disk drives, a keyboard and a monitor). It can be oeprated by a remote-control device of the sort used to change TV channels... . The device, to sell for under $1,000, would display the audio, visual and text content of a specially made CD and would pit Apple against Ninetendo, Inc., for the loyalty of the world's electronic entertainment addicts... . Mr. Sculley declines to comment...but he does say: `We want to show that Apple can be as innovative in the mid-'90s as it was...in the mid '80s.' " It looks like Apple's definition of innovation is stealing ideas from other companies. First Xerox, now Commodore. Doesn't the described device above sound exactly like CDTV? Apple's system 7.0 has a new class of events called 'AppleEvents' which allow you to control applications from within other applications, _exactly_ like what Arexx ports do (AppleEvents=RexxMsgs). The only difference is Arexx is more flexible since things don't have to be hard-coded into the applications entirely. Some Mac shareware hacker could easily write a desk accessory to interpret a language such as rexx, basic, perl, whatever and Macs would have the same flexibility as Arexx. I just thought the WSJ article was amusing. Next Apple will be putting chips like Agnus into Macs and calling it innovation. -- /~\_______________________________________________________________________/~\ |n| rjc@albert.ai.mit.edu Amiga, the computer for the creative mind. |n| |~| .-. .-. |~| |_|________________________________| |_| |________________________________|_|
kdarling@hobbes.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (03/18/91)
In <1991Mar17.212322.15105@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > Check out this article from the 3-15-91 issue of the Wall Street Journal. > "Another proposed product...would represent Apple's entry into consumer >electronics. This `living room' system combines a compact-disk player and a >stripped down Macintosh (minus disk drives, a keyboard and a monitor)." > > It looks like Apple's definition of innovation is stealing ideas from > other companies. First Xerox, now Commodore. Doesn't the described > device above sound exactly like CDTV? No, it sounds exactly like CD-I, just as CDTV does. True innovation is pretty rare everywhere these days ;-). But I admit to being surprised that Apple would go into consumer electronics. Maybe the sales of under-$1000 Macs convinced them there was a market? > "visual and text content of a specially made CD and would pit Apple against > Ninetendo, Inc., for the loyalty of the world's electronic entertainment Yah, it was interesting to read in Computer Shopper just recently, that Apple keeps a close eye on Microsoft, IBM, and also game-machine makers. Makes sense; if all those 68K game machines out there suddenly could be expanded into inexpensive and nice home systems (as some makers proposed), then they could wrap up a lot of the supposedly reincarnated "home" market. Thx for the WSJ quotes! - kev <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (03/19/91)
In article <1991Mar17.212322.15105@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > "Another proposed product...would represent Apple's entry into consumer >electronics. This `living room' system combines a compact-disk player ... >The device, to sell for under $1,000, ... > It looks like Apple's definition of innovation is stealing ideas from >other companies. First Xerox, now Commodore. Well, all that aside, it does shed an interesting light on the real cost of Mac technology. Anyone notice that Apple currently doesn't sell a color Mac with even a floppy for under $1000. Or under $2000, for that matter, last I heard. Either Apple's dreaming here, planning to compete in black&white against color CDTVs and Nintendos, or they're currently ripping you all off on color Macs. Apple certainly has had some innovations in the past. This would certainly not add to that list. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "What works for me might work for you" -Jimmy Buffett
kdarling@hobbes.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (03/19/91)
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >In article <1991Mar17.212322.15105@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >> "Another proposed product...would represent Apple's entry into consumer >>electronics. This `living room' system combines a compact-disk player ... >>The device, to sell for under $1,000, ... > > Either Apple's dreaming here, planning to compete in black&white >against color CDTVs and Nintendos, or they're currently ripping you all off >on color Macs. Hey, good point! <chuckling> Also, thinking about it some more I decided that Ray was partially right about Apple getting an idea from CDTV... the idea of sticking an already designed motherboard in a consumer case with a CDROM player. cheers - kev <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>
awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) (03/20/91)
In article <19953@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >Well, all that aside, it does shed an interesting light on the real cost of >Mac technology. Anyone notice that Apple currently doesn't sell a color Mac >with even a floppy for under $1000. Or under $2000, for that matter, last I The LC with 2 meg RAM, 40 meg HD, and 512x342 color goes for about $2000 educational pricing. I've seen the LC go for about $1700 mail order, so you could add a cheap VGA monitor and squeeze in under $2000. Now, when you consider that Apple makes about 50% on each Mac sold, you can see lots of room for Apple to compete in the CDTV market. >heard. Either Apple's dreaming here, planning to compete in black&white >against color CDTVs and Nintendos, or they're currently ripping you all off >on color Macs. That second one, I think. Apple is sitting on a billion in cash. I think it can probably find a way to turn an LC into a CDTV. Apple is getting much more interested in the home market. Apple now has a games evangelist and I hear from at least one games developer that Apple gave more support than any of the other platforms the game runs on (Sim City). I don't think Commodore has that much to worry about. It is a much more "agile" company. On the other hand, Apple has lots more eggs, and can spread them among many more baskets.
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (03/20/91)
In article <45814@ut-emx.uucp> awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) writes: >In article <19953@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >>Well, all that aside, it does shed an interesting light on the real cost of >>Mac technology. Anyone notice that Apple currently doesn't sell a color Mac >>with even a floppy for under $1000. Or under $2000, for that matter, last I >The LC with 2 meg RAM, 40 meg HD, and 512x342 color goes for about $2000 >educational pricing. I've seen the LC go for about $1700 mail order, so you >could add a cheap VGA monitor and squeeze in under $2000. Now, when you >consider that Apple makes about 50% on each Mac sold, you can see lots of room >for Apple to compete in the CDTV market. The old Apple markup from cost to list was about 5x. They're less now. But you have to consider that a CD-ROM costs more than a 40 Meg Hard Disk Drive, to start with. Then consider that they would have to provide a 68020 based system to deliver enough video performance to compete with a CDTV; for quite a few operations, the blitter is as far or faster than a 14-16MHz '020. 68020 prices are still considerably above 68000 prices, and of course the cost of the system isn't simply the processor, but the width of the bus necessarily to support that processor. In short, they would need a Mac LC, or something very much like it, with a CD drive, to enter this market. I don't see them doing it any time soon. After all, they just entered the "low cost" (eg, under $1000) market, and it wasn't with a system anywhere near that. >>heard. Either Apple's dreaming here, planning to compete in black&white >>against color CDTVs and Nintendos, or they're currently ripping you all off >>on color Macs. >That second one, I think. Apple is sitting on a billion in cash. No doubts they used to be, and they're still on the pricey side, but no longer outrageous. They probably compare pretty well with IBM or Compaq now, on bang per buck. >Apple now has a games evangelist and I hear from at least one games developer >that Apple gave more support than any of the other platforms the game runs on >Sim City). Well, Sim City is a great game, no doubts, but it's hardly a typical video game. I don't see a CDTV or MacTV directly attacking video games; they both make a very good "information appliance". But they also replace the video game in the home, you don't likely have both. CDTV games will absolutely blow you away if you're used to Nintendo or Genesis type games, just based on the CD storage capability. Any real Mac OS is not going to be able to deliver the same graphics speed. I'm saying that Apple can't make a go of a CDTV clone (or a CD-I clone, if Phillips ever figures out what CD-I actually is), but I don't really understand why Apple picked something they're not good at as an example of mid-90's innovation. >I don't think Commodore has that much to worry about. Me neither. At least from Apple; we'll see if the CDTV catches on. The idea isn't that much of a new concept at Commodore. We've been throwing around the idea of a "stereo component computer" since the C128 days at least. Like a few other ideas that have been around for awhile, it's really taken a new technology like the CD-ROM to make this a reasonable thing to do. After mucking with a CDTV for while, I can say I'd certainly like one in my living room, even with all the Amiga horsepower sitting in my computer room at home. >On the other hand, Apple has lots more eggs, and can spread them among many >more baskets. They do have the cash to spend on developing it (since it's mainly existing technology nowadays, no biggie), and attracting software developers (who knows what problem that is -- game developers, when you mention "all the disk space you can use, and no way to copy it" seem to get real smiley). Of course, Commodore has it just about out the door.... -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "What works for me might work for you" -Jimmy Buffett