melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/01/91)
In article <86aJZ2w164w@ozonebbs.UUCP> vsolanoy@ozonebbs.UUCP (Victor Solanoy) writes:
Some of the weaknesses you mention are probably a result of the limited
abilities of the 68000 processor used in 'stock' Amigas... and not the
operating itself.
Victor
True, this is why it's nice to use a machine that uses a 15 mip 68040
in its base model. During the NeXT several years, developers can
assume this where the NeXT is concerned, but they will have to develop
for the A500 when they program on the Amiga. Of course, most
developers probably aren't going to bother with the Amiga at all.
-Mikedaveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (04/03/91)
In article <igdG0j+d1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <86aJZ2w164w@ozonebbs.UUCP> vsolanoy@ozonebbs.UUCP (Victor Solanoy) writes: > Some of the weaknesses you mention are probably a result of the limited > abilities of the 68000 processor used in 'stock' Amigas... and not the > operating itself. >True, this is why it's nice to use a machine that uses a 15 mip 68040 >in its base model. That's also why it's not nice to use a machine that uses a 15 MIPS 68040 as its base model (though in truth, the discontinued 68030 NeXT is the base NeXT model). Software can set higher goals with a higher base processor, but it also requires that base processor just to squeak by. The first generation 64K/4.77MHz 8088 IBM PC, 128K/7.8MHz 68000 Mac, the 256K/7.16MHz 68000 Amiga 1000, and the 4MB/25MHz 68030 NeXT were each in this category for what they were trying to achieve, though they were not all in the same computer class (I see three different ones there myself). The basic performance of the 68040 generation NeXT, to the average GUI user at least, is on the order of what 2nd generation Amiga users have been enjoying for a long time. While it won't number crunch faster, an A3000 does nearly everything else faster than a 68040 based NeXT. And you haven't seen a 68040 based Amiga yet. >Of course, most developers probably aren't going to bother with the Amiga at >all. Or the NeXT. MOST developers develop for MS-DOS. A visable percentage are developing for MS-Windows as well, and for the Mac. Standard UNIX, or perhaps one of the standard UNIXs, is another growing target. Amiga has lots of development in a few specific areas. NeXT has the kind of fringe the Amiga did in its early days, and some hired guns, which are of course nice, and something I wish C= had had the startup money to afford. That is an effective, if expensive, way to get acceptance for a new system, as long as you can afford to pay the big companies and scare away the little guys. >-Mike -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (04/03/91)
In article <igdG0j+d1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > True, this is why it's nice to use a machine that uses a 15 mip 68040 > in its base model. During the NeXT several years, developers can > assume this where the NeXT is concerned, but they will have to develop > for the A500 when they program on the Amiga. Of course, most > developers probably aren't going to bother with the Amiga at all. No. Most developers will continue to develop for MS-DOS and Windows. The NeXT and Amiga are both way back in the race, with the Mac in an intermediate position (and holding it largely through the clever use of lawyers). All the arguments about the technical excellence of the NeXT apply equally well to the technical excellence of the Amiga over the past 5 years. See how well that's worked... -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/03/91)
In article <20267@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes:
That's also why it's not nice to use a machine that uses a 15 MIPS 68040
as its base model (though in truth, the discontinued 68030 NeXT is the base
NeXT model). Software can set higher goals with a higher base processor,
but it also requires that base processor just to squeak by. The first
generation 64K/4.77MHz 8088 IBM PC, 128K/7.8MHz 68000 Mac, the 256K/7.16MHz
68000 Amiga 1000, and the 4MB/25MHz 68030 NeXT were each in this category
for what they were trying to achieve, though they were not all in the same
computer class (I see three different ones there myself).
Software is the name of the game. Make it as easy as possible for
developers to write software on your machine. So what if the first
generation of software is a bit on the slow side. Slow software is
better than no software.
The basic performance of the 68040 generation NeXT, to the average GUI user
at least, is on the order of what 2nd generation Amiga users have been
enjoying for a long time. While it won't number crunch faster, an A3000 does
nearly everything else faster than a 68040 based NeXT. And you haven't seen
a 68040 based Amiga yet.
Commodore just got the 030 Amiga 3000 out the door. I think it will
be a while before we see an 040 machine from you guys, knowing
Commodore's track record. I suggest skipping the 040 and going
straight to a RISC processor. Things are going to heat up with
introduction HP's Snake computers. NeXT year 15 mips isn't going to
seem all that fast, unless your selling it for $2000.
Or the NeXT. MOST developers develop for MS-DOS. A visable percentage are
developing for MS-Windows as well, and for the Mac. Standard UNIX, or perhaps
one of the standard UNIXs, is another growing target. Amiga has lots of
development in a few specific areas. NeXT has the kind of fringe the Amiga
did in its early days, and some hired guns, which are of course nice, and
something I wish C= had had the startup money to afford. That is an effective,
if expensive, way to get acceptance for a new system, as long as you can afford
to pay the big companies and scare away the little guys.
Who has NeXT paid to develop software? I've heard this before, but no
one is naming names. Is it just a rumor? In fact this newgroup is
the only place that I've heard it. Anyway, NeXT (or Commodore)
doesn't need everyone to develop software for their machine, just a
few good companies(or ones that people recognize :-)) in the necessary
areas like DTP, CAD, accounting, etc.
You would think with over 2 million machines more developers would
support the Amiga. As of last year, that was half as many as Apple.
That should be enough to make developers look your way. I think a
Word Perfect 5.0 and a Lotus 123 for the Amiga would sell a lot more
machines. Commodore can afford to at least pay these guys, if
necessary.
-Mikemelling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/03/91)
In article <1991Apr2.192023.26598@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
No. Most developers will continue to develop for MS-DOS and Windows. The
NeXT and Amiga are both way back in the race, with the Mac in an intermediate
position (and holding it largely through the clever use of lawyers).
All the arguments about the technical excellence of the NeXT apply equally
well to the technical excellence of the Amiga over the past 5 years. See
how well that's worked...
I don't care if most developers continue to develop for DOS machines
as long as some good developers write software for the NeXT. The Mac
is still the best(IMHO) computer for WP and DTP.
The Amiga lost because it was branded a GAME MACHINE, the user
interface didn't/doesn't look as good/professional (Zzzz) as the Macs,
and it used to GURU meditate a little too much. Lest we forget,
Commodore didn't know how to market the machine either.
-Mikerjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (04/03/91)
In article <gi1Gxwqf1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <1991Apr2.192023.26598@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > > No. Most developers will continue to develop for MS-DOS and Windows. The > NeXT and Amiga are both way back in the race, with the Mac in an intermediate > position (and holding it largely through the clever use of lawyers). > > All the arguments about the technical excellence of the NeXT apply equally > well to the technical excellence of the Amiga over the past 5 years. See > how well that's worked... > >I don't care if most developers continue to develop for DOS machines >as long as some good developers write software for the NeXT. The Mac >is still the best(IMHO) computer for WP and DTP. > >The Amiga lost because it was branded a GAME MACHINE, the user ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ When did the Amiga lose? Amiga's are selling better now than they have ever done before. Let's not forget that the Commodore 64 was also branded a game machine yet it sold 10 million machines world wide and is still selling. I predict NeXT's aren't going to achieve much of a market penetration. There are low-end Amigas (500), low end Macs(Classic), lo end IBM's (pc/xt), but there is no low-end NeXT. The cheapest model is over $3000 and that's just the educational price. >interface didn't/doesn't look as good/professional (Zzzz) as the Macs, >and it used to GURU meditate a little too much. Lest we forget, >Commodore didn't know how to market the machine either. Regardless of that fact, the Amiga continues to sell without any marketing. Just think how good it would sell with marketing. The Commodore 64 sold 10 million with hardly any marketing. I guess that says alot about Commodore's technical excellence and price. >-Mike You need to wake up to the fact that the general populace isn't going to purchase a NeXT anymore than they'd purchase a Sun or Vax. Sure, it's cool to develop on the NeXT (objective-c, yuck), but you can't sell a machine to developers only, developers need consumers to buy what developers develop. An Amiga or Mac w/040 would kill NeXT in speed considering the overhead of NeXTStep, Display Postscript, and Unix compared to that of AmigaDOS or Finder. And about Interface builder. The NeXT isn't the only machine that has interface building programs.They are availible on the Ibm, Mac, and Amiga as well. Considering how long the NeXT has been around, and how many units it has sold, i'd say it's more of a loser than Commodore. -- /~\_______________________________________________________________________/~\ |n| rjc@albert.ai.mit.edu Amiga, the computer for the creative mind. |n| |~| .-. .-. |~| |_|________________________________| |_| |________________________________|_|
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/03/91)
In article <ibbG+qlf1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >Commodore just got the 030 Amiga 3000 out the door. I think it will >be a while before we see an 040 machine from you guys, knowing >Commodore's track record. I suggest skipping the 040 and going >straight to a RISC processor. Things are going to heat up with >introduction HP's Snake computers. NeXT year 15 mips isn't going to >seem all that fast, unless your selling it for $2000. > You sound like someone who doesn't know what he is talking about and doesn't want to. It is becoming more and more apparent that you are here simply to cause trouble, not to express real opinions. Commodore has been shipping a 68030 machine for over a year and a half in the form of the A2500/30. Commodore seems to have caught up with the industry pretty fast. The 040 isn't being shipped in machines by anyone except NeXT and maybe HP. The 040s have been available to developers for SO long that everyone has their boards done, they are just waiting for 040s to put in them! I'd say you'll see it for the Amiga as soon as you see it for the Mac. And why do you type NeXT when you using it to mean the word next? And, as to 15 mips not being fast enough, that's why Motorola does things called R&D which allow them to come out with new and faster chips! What a concept! There was the 68000, 010, 020, 030, now the 040, and there'll likely be an 050 as well. And how about a 50MHz 040! > >You would think with over 2 million machines more developers would >support the Amiga. As of last year, that was half as many as Apple. >That should be enough to make developers look your way. I think a >Word Perfect 5.0 and a Lotus 123 for the Amiga would sell a lot more >machines. Commodore can afford to at least pay these guys, if >necessary. > >-Mike The problem with paying these companies is that if they are being bribed into making for the Amiga and otherwise don't want to, their committment will be as bad as WordPerfect's is for the Amiga today. We want companies who WANT to be in the Amiga market. And, as to that 2 million machine base, as most of those machines are A500s without much expansion, the 2 million is a deceptive number. -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/03/91)
In article <1991Apr3.033827.1716@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes:
When did the Amiga lose? Amiga's are selling better now than they have
ever done before. Let's not forget that the Commodore 64 was also branded
a game machine yet it sold 10 million machines world wide and is still
selling. I predict NeXT's aren't going to achieve much of a market
penetration. There are low-end Amigas (500), low end Macs(Classic), lo end
IBM's (pc/xt), but there is no low-end NeXT. The cheapest model is over
$3000 and that's just the educational price.
I used to own a Commodore 64 and 128 so I know all about them. The
Amiga lost, in my opinion, because is could have done so much better.
They aren't accepted in Fortune 500 companies, you don't find too many
campus computer labs full of Amigas, and major developers still don't
write software for them. We have one where I work(A2500), but the
people who I work with would rather play with Toolbook -- Damn that
thing is slow. That's how much respect it gets.
Regardless of that fact, the Amiga continues to sell without any marketing.
Just think how good it would sell with marketing. The Commodore 64 sold
10 million with hardly any marketing. I guess that says alot about
Commodore's technical excellence and price.
Commodore sold 10 million 64's because they sold them for $200 a
piece. When an entire Amiga system goes for $500, they will take off
too(IMHO). Get WP and Lotus on the machine, and I think a lot of
people will them. Then again, you need a flicker fixer. People might
go for VGA machines instead.
You need to wake up to the fact that the general populace isn't going
to purchase a NeXT anymore than they'd purchase a Sun or Vax. Sure, it's
cool to develop on the NeXT (objective-c, yuck), but you can't sell
a machine to developers only, developers need consumers to buy what
developers develop. An Amiga or Mac w/040 would kill NeXT in speed
considering the overhead of NeXTStep, Display Postscript, and Unix
compared to that of AmigaDOS or Finder.
Most people aren't interested in speed, they want functionality. It's
what you do with the speed that matters. NeXT gives the consumer
Display Postscript, voice mail, and built in fax capabilities.
The Amiga gives you the best games in the business.
And about Interface builder. The NeXT isn't the only machine that has
interface building programs.They are availible on the Ibm, Mac, and Amiga
as well.
And Motif. There is a free IB with Interviews for generic X Windows,
but it is only an alpha version. So, spend a few hundred bucks and
buy the one for your machine. Do you have your calculator out?
Amiga 3000 + 040 board + C++ + IB + Mathematica + DSP + 92 dpi display =
Should we throw in ethernet? That costs an extra $500 on a Mac. And
why the hell is Commodore still using 800K drives in the Amiga?
Considering how long the NeXT has been around, and how many units it has
sold, i'd say it's more of a loser than Commodore.
I think NeXT released their first machines in Sept. 88. Their latest
machines shipped in December. Your right, the old machines didn't
sell well because they were a bit slow, but they have sold about
20,000 new machines so far. NeXT hasn't won yet, but they are poised
to make their mark.
-Mikees1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/03/91)
In article <.$2G0ysf1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >I used to own a Commodore 64 and 128 so I know all about them. The >Amiga lost, in my opinion, because is could have done so much better. So that makes you qualified to discuss the Amiga? If the Amiga were on the same level as the C=128, I'd give up too! You make it sound like the game is over and Commodore has stopped developing for the Amiga. There is still a bright future, especially now that sales are up and there is more money at Commodore to do things! >Then again, you need a flicker fixer. People might >go for VGA machines instead. > The A3000 has one built in and the cost of one is under $250. >Most people aren't interested in speed, they want functionality. It's >what you do with the speed that matters. NeXT gives the consumer >Display Postscript, voice mail, and built in fax capabilities. >The Amiga gives you the best games in the business. > That's just a cheap shot that lowers your credibility even more (didn't think it could go negative, did you 8) The Amiga is the BEST in video work in the micro/workstation industry. All the major video magazines are moving over towards HEAVY Amiga coverage. The quality of Amiga software in most business areas is acceptable although not miraculous. And, BTW, the Amiga DTP software is also quite good in its own right, capable of publishing magazines. >Should we throw in ethernet? That costs an extra $500 on a Mac. And >why the hell is Commodore still using 800K drives in the Amiga? > I guess that's why Commodore just developed/announced a HD Amiga disk drive! > >I think NeXT released their first machines in Sept. 88. Their latest >machines shipped in December. Your right, the old machines didn't >sell well because they were a bit slow, but they have sold about >20,000 new machines so far. NeXT hasn't won yet, but they are poised >to make their mark. > Not if they've only sold 20,000 new machines! If, after the initial burst of sales from the new machine launches, they've only made that many sales, then they can never make a profit (nor will Lotus or Word Perfect) and they will simply survive until Steve Jobs runs out of money with which to fund the company. And, BTW, they've already made a mark. That doesn't mean they'll be around in the long term. Commodore, however, will be, as they are making a clear profit and their sales are growing. >-Mike > -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (04/03/91)
In article <.$2G0ysf1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <1991Apr3.033827.1716@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > > When did the Amiga lose? Amiga's are selling better now than they have > ever done before. Let's not forget that the Commodore 64 was also branded > a game machine yet it sold 10 million machines world wide and is still > selling. I predict NeXT's aren't going to achieve much of a market > penetration. There are low-end Amigas (500), low end Macs(Classic), lo end > IBM's (pc/xt), but there is no low-end NeXT. The cheapest model is over > $3000 and that's just the educational price. > >I used to own a Commodore 64 and 128 so I know all about them. The >Amiga lost, in my opinion, because is could have done so much better. >They aren't accepted in Fortune 500 companies, you don't find too many >campus computer labs full of Amigas, and major developers still don't >write software for them. We have one where I work(A2500), but the >people who I work with would rather play with Toolbook -- Damn that >thing is slow. That's how much respect it gets. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Note this. > Regardless of that fact, the Amiga continues to sell without any marketing. > Just think how good it would sell with marketing. The Commodore 64 sold > 10 million with hardly any marketing. I guess that says alot about > Commodore's technical excellence and price. > >Commodore sold 10 million 64's because they sold them for $200 a >piece. When an entire Amiga system goes for $500, they will take off >too(IMHO). Get WP and Lotus on the machine, and I think a lot of >people will them. Then again, you need a flicker fixer. People might >go for VGA machines instead. > > You need to wake up to the fact that the general populace isn't going > to purchase a NeXT anymore than they'd purchase a Sun or Vax. Sure, it's > cool to develop on the NeXT (objective-c, yuck), but you can't sell > a machine to developers only, developers need consumers to buy what > developers develop. An Amiga or Mac w/040 would kill NeXT in speed > considering the overhead of NeXTStep, Display Postscript, and Unix > compared to that of AmigaDOS or Finder. > >Most people aren't interested in speed, they want functionality. It's ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Note this. >what you do with the speed that matters. NeXT gives the consumer >Display Postscript, voice mail, and built in fax capabilities. How can you send fax without a modem or ethernet? Sure NeXT has an ethernet port, buthow many people can afford an Internet connection? Voice-Mail from one NeXT to Another in the same computer lab is about as useful as making a telephone call from your bedroom to your basement. >The Amiga gives you the best games in the business. > > And about Interface builder. The NeXT isn't the only machine that has > interface building programs.They are availible on the Ibm, Mac, and Amiga > as well. > >And Motif. There is a free IB with Interviews for generic X Windows, >but it is only an alpha version. So, spend a few hundred bucks and >buy the one for your machine. Do you have your calculator out? PowerWindows on the Amiga costs about $30. MenuC costs nothing. Amiga interface builders generate in LOTS of languages not just Obj-C. PowerWindows generates Forth, Basic, Modula, Assembler, C, and other languages. >Amiga 3000 + 040 board + C++ + IB + Mathematica + DSP + 92 dpi display = $2600 + $800 +Free +Free/$30+Maple ?+Don't need DSP+A2024($499)= $3800 bucks for a Machine that's muchmore usuable than a NeXT. I'll take G++ over objective C anyday. >Should we throw in ethernet? That costs an extra $500 on a Mac. And >why the hell is Commodore still using 800K drives in the Amiga? Commodore puts 1.76mb drives in new Amiga's now. > Considering how long the NeXT has been around, and how many units it has > sold, i'd say it's more of a loser than Commodore. > >I think NeXT released their first machines in Sept. 88. Their latest >machines shipped in December. Your right, the old machines didn't >sell well because they were a bit slow, but they have sold about ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I thought you speed wasn't important? First you say your Amiga2500 was slow (an 030 running AmigaDOS slow? Doubtful), then you say speed isn't important, now your saying NeXT machines (030) didn't sell because they were slow? Which is it? >20,000 new machines so far. NeXT hasn't won yet, but they are poised >to make their mark. How? NeXT's in business/home use? Not bloody likely. You say Amiga's are game machines? Oh well, this fact alone guarantees that C= will be around alot longer than NeXT. the C64 market hasn't even died down yet. Commodore sold a few hundred thousand C64's last year which is more than the total number of NeXT's world wide. The C64 may have been a game machine, but a large number of people still used it to do work. I used it to do all my word processing. Many people I know ran BBSs on them, programmed, published, and played games. I can still run more software on my C64 than you could ever hope to run on your NeXT. NeXT isn't going anywhere. There will be 040's out for Amigas and Macs this year. >-Mike > -- /~\_______________________________________________________________________/~\ |n| rjc@albert.ai.mit.edu Amiga, the computer for the creative mind. |n| |~| .-. .-. |~| |_|________________________________| |_| |________________________________|_|
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/03/91)
In article <1991Apr3.051014.5474@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes:
How can you send fax without a modem or ethernet? Sure NeXT has
an ethernet port, buthow many people can afford an Internet connection?
Voice-Mail from one NeXT to Another in the same computer lab is about
as useful as making a telephone call from your bedroom to your basement.
It works great acrossed campus. I'm not sure how many Fortune 500
companies are using ethernet? Voice mail will work through a modem.
It's just a compress'ed tar file. And I guess you'd have to buy a fax
machine to send faxes. Fax machines are pretty common, ya know.
I thought you speed wasn't important? First you say your Amiga2500 was
slow (an 030 running AmigaDOS slow? Doubtful), then you say speed
isn't important, now your saying NeXT machines (030) didn't sell
because they were slow? Which is it?
It was refering to Toolbook, not the A2500. Reread my posting. My
point was Toolbook is incredibly slow, and the people where I work
would rather spend their time developing in it then the Amiga which
looks a helluva lot more impressive. No one uses the loaner A2500.
It will leave here untouch except for a few demos. Damn shame.
How? NeXT's in business/home use? Not bloody likely. You say
Amiga's are game machines? Oh well, this fact alone guarantees that
C= will be around alot longer than NeXT. the C64 market hasn't even
died down yet. Commodore sold a few hundred thousand C64's last year
which is more than the total number of NeXT's world wide.
The C64 may have been a game machine, but a large number of people
still used it to do work. I used it to do all my word processing.
Many people I know ran BBSs on them, programmed, published, and played
games. I can still run more software on my C64 than you could ever hope to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
run on your NeXT.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
How old are you? So what? It's what runs on your machine, not how
much software is available. Come on, think about this. By the way,
if you run acrossed any software that says "Cracked courtesy of the
Condor", that was me.
I'll let you figure out why Commodore sold more C64's than NeXT sold
NeXT computers.
NeXT isn't going anywhere. There will be 040's out for Amigas and Macs
this year.
Great statement. The big question is: "How much will they cost?"
-Mikemelling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/03/91)
In article <1991Apr3.045757.24803@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: >I used to own a Commodore 64 and 128 so I know all about them. The >Amiga lost, in my opinion, because is could have done so much better. So that makes you qualified to discuss the Amiga? If the Amiga were on the same level as the C=128, I'd give up too! You make it sound like the game is over and Commodore has stopped developing for the Amiga. There is still a bright future, especially now that sales are up and there is more money at Commodore to do things! Right, Commodore does have a niche market. All I was saying is that they could of had a lot more. >Then again, you need a flicker fixer. People might >go for VGA machines instead. > The A3000 has one built in and the cost of one is under $250. I know the A3000 has one built in, but that isn't Commodore's $1000 machine. People don't want to screw around with a flicker fixer, they want to pull the computer out of the box and start typing. Besides, when they are shopping for a computer, the flicker fixer isn't going to be installed. Commodore already has a two marks against them: Apple and IBM. People are going to look at the screens, and they are either going to like what they see or they're not. The people in my office were definitely turned off by the flicker. I suppose the salesman at the store could always explain it to the consumer(think about why this isn't good -- extra points). That's just a cheap shot that lowers your credibility even more (didn't think it could go negative, did you 8) The Amiga is the BEST in video work in the micro/workstation industry. All the major video magazines are moving over towards HEAVY Amiga coverage. The quality of Amiga software in most business areas is acceptable although not miraculous. And, BTW, the Amiga DTP software is also quite good in its own right, capable of publishing magazines. Isn't a Toaster being made for the Mac? And don't forget to watch out for the NeXTDimension board from NeXT. People aren't going to buy an Amiga(or NeXT) just because it has acceptable software, if they can get a Mac that does the same thing better. Very competitive software is needed! >Should we throw in ethernet? That costs an extra $500 on a Mac. And >why the hell is Commodore still using 800K drives in the Amiga? > I guess that's why Commodore just developed/announced a HD Amiga disk drive! Good to hear? I hope it reads/write DOS diskettes. What's their capacity? Why didn't they just use the 2.88MB floppies like NeXT did, or the 1.44MB drives that have been around for a couple of years? Not if they've only sold 20,000 new machines! If, after the initial burst of sales from the new machine launches, they've only made that many sales, then they can never make a profit (nor will Lotus or Word Perfect) and they will simply survive until Steve Jobs runs out of money with which to fund the company. Of course! And, BTW, they've already made a mark. That doesn't mean they'll be around in the long term. Commodore, however, will be, as they are making a clear profit and their sales are growing. And that doesn't mean that Commodore will be around either. They did go through some bad years a while back. -Mike
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/03/91)
In article <u76Ge_wf1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >It was refering to Toolbook, not the A2500. Reread my posting. My >point was Toolbook is incredibly slow, and the people where I work >would rather spend their time developing in it then the Amiga which >looks a helluva lot more impressive. No one uses the loaner A2500. >It will leave here untouch except for a few demos. Damn shame. > Well, what does your company do, what software do you have on the Amiga, and what are they expected to do with the machine? It doesn't make much sense to show an Amiga to people who are interested in doing SQL Database work, for example. > NeXT isn't going anywhere. There will be 040's out for Amigas and Macs > this year. > >Great statement. The big question is: "How much will they cost?" > For the A3000 it should be significantly under $1,000 from the figures I've heard. And, before you start quoting prices, just because Steve Jobs doesn't care about making a profit doesn't mean that Commodore can afford to. >-Mike -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/03/91)
In article <1991Apr3.040256.27402@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes:
You sound like someone who doesn't know what he is
talking about and doesn't want to. It is becoming more and more
apparent that you are here simply to cause trouble, not to
express real opinions. Commodore has been shipping a 68030
machine for over a year and a half in the form of the A2500/30.
Forgot about that? I wonder if that is what we have over in the
corner?
Commodore seems to have caught up with the industry pretty fast.
The 040 isn't being shipped in machines by anyone except NeXT and
maybe HP. The 040s have been available to developers for SO long
that everyone has their boards done, they are just waiting for
040s to put in them! I'd say you'll see it for the Amiga as soon
as you see it for the Mac.
You can buy an 040 Mac board for $3500 from Raduis. In case you don't
know, the NeXT costs $4995 retail. The 17" monitor, DSP, software,
105MB hard drive, 8MB RAM, 2.88MB floppy, and the software. If you go
to a university that sells NeXTs, you can buy everything for around
$3250. Yes, that's less than the Mac upgrade.
And why do you type NeXT when you using it to mean the
word next? And, as to 15 mips not being fast enough, that's why
Motorola does things called R&D which allow them to come out with
new and faster chips! What a concept! There was the 68000, 010,
020, 030, now the 040, and there'll likely be an 050 as well. And
how about a 50MHz 040!
We're all waiting for the 50MHz 040. Intel is releasing the 50MHz 486
soon. I wouldn't hold my breath until the 050 is released. RISC
machines are about to stomp all over CISC machines. Take the 57 mip
HP Snake for $12,000 as an example. Any company that is waiting for
the 050 is going to go out of business.
-Mikekopnicky@spotted.rice.edu (Lyle Warren Kopnicky) (04/03/91)
My roommate has a Mac, and it sure crashes a lot more than my Amiga, and it doesn't give you an error number like the Amiga when it GURUs, it just locks up or reboots itself. Plus, I've never seen more people get viruses than Mac people. True, the Mac's windowing interface was more powerful, but not now that the Amiga has 2.0. And at least on the Amiga the color icons don't look like colorized line art. Also, the hard drives built into Macs crash easily. Quantums never do. - Quantum (!) Seep
kopnicky@spotted.rice.edu (Lyle Warren Kopnicky) (04/03/91)
I was just wondering about your comment that Commodore is shipping 1.76MB drives with the new Amigas. Is this de facto or soon in the future? Are these really 1.76MB or 1.52MB as are the Applied Engineering drives, and will this cause problems for those who own AE drives? Also, do the drives have electronic eject buttons? If you or someone else could answer these questions, it would be appreciated. - Quantum Seep P.S. If the drives are being shipped, then in which models?
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/03/91)
In article <zs6G8pxf1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <1991Apr3.045757.24803@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > > > >Then again, you need a flicker fixer. People might > >go for VGA machines instead. > > > The A3000 has one built in and the cost of one is under $250. > >I know the A3000 has one built in, but that isn't Commodore's $1000 >machine. People don't want to screw around with a flicker fixer, they >want to pull the computer out of the box and start typing. Besides, Wait, wait, wait. Aren't you saying that the NeXT is the great machine? They don't even HAVE a model for the $1,000 area. The flicker-fixer can be added to an A2000, i.e. anything but an A500, and there is an adaptor for A500s made by third-parties (I believe ICD?). And, as to it not being in the machine, if you have a competent dealer they will install it for you. >Isn't a Toaster being made for the Mac? And don't forget to watch out >for the NeXTDimension board from NeXT. > (I hate to this, but it is well deserved) BZZZZZT Wrong answer! But thank you for playing! NewTek is definitely not making a Toaster for the Mac. While there are Apple companies who claim to be making similar devices, that is to be expected. I have seen no price estimates, and of course there is no hardware to SEE on the mac, just advertisements. Lots of vapor. >People aren't going to buy an Amiga(or NeXT) just because it has >acceptable software, if they can get a Mac that does the same thing >better. Very competitive software is needed! > That's why the Amiga has the best character generation software and the best 3-D modeling software of anything in its price range. Yes, a niche market, but that is how Apple started, not so? >Good to hear? I hope it reads/write DOS diskettes. What's their >capacity? Why didn't they just use the 2.88MB floppies like NeXT did, >or the 1.44MB drives that have been around for a couple of years? > The problem is that the standard Amiga disk-drive port uses the Agnus for decoding the info. In order to get high-density from Applied Engineering, they had the drive run at half speed. I don't know what Commodore did. Not all Amiga's have a SCSI port. The capacity is 1.76MB. And I'm sure that programs like CrossDOS will be made to support them. > Not if they've only sold 20,000 new machines! If, after > the initial burst of sales from the new machine launches, they've > only made that many sales, then they can never make a profit (nor > will Lotus or Word Perfect) and they will simply survive until > Steve Jobs runs out of money with which to fund the company. > >Of course! > > And, BTW, they've already made a mark. That doesn't mean > they'll be around in the long term. Commodore, however, will be, > as they are making a clear profit and their sales are growing. > >And that doesn't mean that Commodore will be around either. They did >go through some bad years a while back. > Yes, but there were never really any good years for the Amiga at that point. Now it has made its mark. Obviously the Amiga won't last forever, but Commodore can be considered a sure thing for the next 5-10 years, at least if stock-market analysts are to be believed. They've rated Commodore a 'strong-buy' and have said that it is a company to watch for in the 90s. >-Mike -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/03/91)
In article <f-6G-*xf1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >In article <1991Apr3.040256.27402@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > >You can buy an 040 Mac board for $3500 from Raduis. In case you don't Is it shipping, or just advertised? There have been advertisements for Amiga 040 accelerators in AmigaWorld for a heck of a lot less than $3,500, and for machines that are already 32 bit, i.e. the A3000, the cost should be appr. $700 street-price. >know, the NeXT costs $4995 retail. The 17" monitor, DSP, software, >105MB hard drive, 8MB RAM, 2.88MB floppy, and the software. If you go >to a university that sells NeXTs, you can buy everything for around >$3250. Yes, that's less than the Mac upgrade. > Yes, you've mentioned that before. 8) >We're all waiting for the 50MHz 040. Intel is releasing the 50MHz 486 >soon. I wouldn't hold my breath until the 050 is released. RISC >machines are about to stomp all over CISC machines. Take the 57 mip >HP Snake for $12,000 as an example. Any company that is waiting for >the 050 is going to go out of business. > No one is waiting for the 050, but Motorola has made a clear committment to their 680x0 line. If the current 040 is 15 mips then the 50MHz will be 30. And as top RISC machines stomping CISC machines, YOU CAN'T COMPARE MIPS BETWEEN RISC AND CISC CHIPS. The instructions on the RISC chip do less BY DEFINITION. There are lies, damned lies, and benchmarks. The world is hardly being run over by RISC chips, although they are becoming the in-thing in workstations. >-Mike -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (04/03/91)
In article <u76Ge_wf1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >In article <1991Apr3.051014.5474@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > > How can you send fax without a modem or ethernet? Sure NeXT has > an ethernet port, buthow many people can afford an Internet connection? > Voice-Mail from one NeXT to Another in the same computer lab is about > as useful as making a telephone call from your bedroom to your basement. > >It works great acrossed campus. I'm not sure how many Fortune 500 >companies are using ethernet? Voice mail will work through a modem. >It's just a compress'ed tar file. And I guess you'd have to buy a fax >machine to send faxes. Fax machines are pretty common, ya know. ^^^^^^^^^What does this have to do with NeXT? You can get send fax for Amiga, Mac, IBM, etc. To tell ya the truth, I'd rather use the telephone. I can't fancy uploading a multimegabyte sound file just to leave a few seconds of a message that I could have sent in ASCII, or used the telephone. (especially if the personal recieving it has a voice-mailbox system) > I thought you speed wasn't important? First you say your Amiga2500 was > slow (an 030 running AmigaDOS slow? Doubtful), then you say speed > isn't important, now your saying NeXT machines (030) didn't sell > because they were slow? Which is it? > >It was refering to Toolbook, not the A2500. Reread my posting. My >point was Toolbook is incredibly slow, and the people where I work >would rather spend their time developing in it then the Amiga which >looks a helluva lot more impressive. No one uses the loaner A2500. >It will leave here untouch except for a few demos. Damn shame. Too bad, your fellow employee's loss. You'd make more money developign AMiga software than you would doing NeXT software. > How? NeXT's in business/home use? Not bloody likely. You say > Amiga's are game machines? Oh well, this fact alone guarantees that > C= will be around alot longer than NeXT. the C64 market hasn't even > died down yet. Commodore sold a few hundred thousand C64's last year > which is more than the total number of NeXT's world wide. > The C64 may have been a game machine, but a large number of people > still used it to do work. I used it to do all my word processing. > Many people I know ran BBSs on them, programmed, published, and played > games. I can still run more software on my C64 than you could ever hope to > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > run on your NeXT. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >How old are you? So what? It's what runs on your machine, not how ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What does this have to do with it. I've owned Commodore products since 1982. I'm keeping it around for the memories. >much software is available. Come on, think about this. By the way, >if you run acrossed any software that says "Cracked courtesy of the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You sure do know how to increase your credibility on the net, don't you. Sorry, I never heard of you. You weren't in Eagle Soft, ATC, NEC, UCF, or TA which were the major American crack groups. The only Condor I even remotely recall was from a group called 'TSC-The Supreme Council' However, I knew the head of that group personally (He's serving in the persian gulf right now.) so I would know you. I'm not going to reveal my handle since that era of my life is past me, but I was in FBR,Public Enemy, and Conquest, not to mention a few other groups. I never cracked games myself, I programmed the flashy intros/demos for the game loaders. (I also released a few programs to patch games and install cheat modes.) This is all very interesting and brings back memories, but it has nothing to do your arguement. >Condor", that was me. > >I'll let you figure out why Commodore sold more C64's than NeXT sold >NeXT computers. My Commodore 64 system cost approx the same as an Amiga500 does. (C64=$200, 1541=$200, Monitor=$150, printer=$150) My Commodore128 system costed $299 when it first came out, the 1571 disk drive was over $200. Sure Commie 8bit systems were cheap, but not much cheaper than an a500. Especially when the C64 first hit the market. Why don't you figure out why people buy $7000 Mac II systems and not NeXT's? > NeXT isn't going anywhere. There will be 040's out for Amigas and Macs > this year. > >Great statement. The big question is: "How much will they cost?" Well, GVP and Supra (small companies) have quoted prices at $895 list. The Commodore card will probably be cheaper since Commodore can buy 040's and RAM in muchbigger quantities. NeXT owner's act like the no other computer will have an 040 at the same price. I remember NeXT users saying 040 Ami boards would cost $2000. The sad fact is, the headstart that the NeXT had with the 040 isn't going to help. 040's will be availible for the Amiga and Mac this year. >-Mike -- /~\_______________________________________________________________________/~\ |n| rjc@albert.ai.mit.edu Amiga, the computer for the creative mind. |n| |~| .-. .-. |~| |_|________________________________| |_| |________________________________|_|
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (04/03/91)
In article <zs6G8pxf1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <1991Apr3.045757.24803@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > >Then again, you need a flicker fixer. People might > >go for VGA machines instead. > > > The A3000 has one built in and the cost of one is under $250. > >I know the A3000 has one built in, but that isn't Commodore's $1000 >machine. People don't want to screw around with a flicker fixer, they >want to pull the computer out of the box and start typing. Besides, >when they are shopping for a computer, the flicker fixer isn't going >to be installed. Commodore already has a two marks against them: >Apple and IBM. People are going to look at the screens, and they are >either going to like what they see or they're not. The people in my >office were definitely turned off by the flicker. I suppose the >salesman at the store could always explain it to the consumer(think >about why this isn't good -- extra points). The same flicker fixer in the A3000 is availible on a card called the A2320. It is very cheap($250 and below). Also, Commodore's new custom chip chip has flickerfree modes. You can also purchase a $499 A2024 monitor that gives you 1024x800 NTSC or 1024x1024 PAL. > That's just a cheap shot that lowers your credibility > even more (didn't think it could go negative, did you 8) The > Amiga is the BEST in video work in the micro/workstation > industry. All the major video magazines are moving over towards > HEAVY Amiga coverage. The quality of Amiga software in most > business areas is acceptable although not miraculous. And, BTW, > the Amiga DTP software is also quite good in its own right, > capable of publishing magazines. > >Isn't a Toaster being made for the Mac? And don't forget to watch out >for the NeXTDimension board from NeXT. No the Toaster is not being made for the Mac, you have to buy an Amiga+Toaster+Parallel/Serial connection to use it. NeXTDimension is way to expensive considering the other boards availible now adays. It won't give you the same NTSC Video ability that the toaster does either. >People aren't going to buy an Amiga(or NeXT) just because it has >acceptable software, if they can get a Mac that does the same thing >better. Very competitive software is needed! People buy Amigas. For Video, Audio and Games. What Niche does the NeXT occuply? > >Should we throw in ethernet? That costs an extra $500 on a Mac. And > >why the hell is Commodore still using 800K drives in the Amiga? > > > I guess that's why Commodore just developed/announced a > HD Amiga disk drive! > >Good to hear? I hope it reads/write DOS diskettes. What's their >capacity? Why didn't they just use the 2.88MB floppies like NeXT did, >or the 1.44MB drives that have been around for a couple of years? It's 1.76mb. (880k * 2). It's getting to the point that incremental increases in floppy drives are giving diminishing returns. Screw 2.88mb, give me a 20/40mb floptical drive. > Not if they've only sold 20,000 new machines! If, after > the initial burst of sales from the new machine launches, they've > only made that many sales, then they can never make a profit (nor > will Lotus or Word Perfect) and they will simply survive until > Steve Jobs runs out of money with which to fund the company. > >Of course! > > And, BTW, they've already made a mark. That doesn't mean > they'll be around in the long term. Commodore, however, will be, > as they are making a clear profit and their sales are growing. > >And that doesn't mean that Commodore will be around either. They did >go through some bad years a while back. Commodore has been around since the early 80's/late 70's. I even remember an old Commodore 'brick' calculator they sold. They had bad years, but they pulled through to produce the most sucessfl home computer ever created. (C64). Now they produce one of the best multitasking PC's money can buy. NeXT's are ok, but the RISC workstations are just so much better in terms of performance. >-Mike -- /~\_______________________________________________________________________/~\ |n| rjc@albert.ai.mit.edu Amiga, the computer for the creative mind. |n| |~| .-. .-. |~| |_|________________________________| |_| |________________________________|_|
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/03/91)
In article <1991Apr3.070829.31178@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes:
Well, what does your company do, what software do you
have on the Amiga, and what are they expected to do with the
machine? It doesn't make much sense to show an Amiga to people
who are interested in doing SQL Database work, for example.
I am a student who works part time for Penn State as a programmer. We
develop educational software. We have Amiga Vision, and ...I'm not
sure what else.
For the A3000 it should be significantly under $1,000
from the figures I've heard. And, before you start quoting
prices, just because Steve Jobs doesn't care about making a
profit doesn't mean that Commodore can afford to.
The Mac upgrade from Radius costs $3500 as I posted earlier. Sun
sells their IPC(one of them) for $4995, the same as the NeXT. They
also offer an educational discount similar to NeXT's. I assume Sun is
making money. NeXT's is probably making money on their low-end
machines.
-Mikemelling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/03/91)
In article <1991Apr3.082443.12888@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >It works great acrossed campus. I'm not sure how many Fortune 500 >companies are using ethernet? Voice mail will work through a modem. >It's just a compress'ed tar file. And I guess you'd have to buy a fax >machine to send faxes. Fax machines are pretty common, ya know. ^^^^^^^^^What does this have to do with NeXT? You can get send fax for Amiga, Mac, IBM, etc. Faxing is an option from the print menu. You can use it from ANY application. Just click the fax button instead of the print button. > >It was refering to Toolbook, not the A2500. Reread my posting. My >point was Toolbook is incredibly slow, and the people where I work >would rather spend their time developing in it then the Amiga which >looks a helluva lot more impressive. No one uses the loaner A2500. >It will leave here untouch except for a few demos. Damn shame. Too bad, your fellow employee's loss. You'd make more money developign AMiga software than you would doing NeXT software. Actually, we develop mostly Mac and IBM software. We have only one NeXT project. You sure do know how to increase your credibility on the net, don't you. Sorry, I never heard of you. You weren't in Eagle Soft, ATC, NEC, UCF, or TA which were the major American crack groups. The only Condor I even remotely recall was from a group called 'TSC-The Supreme Council' However, I knew the head of that group personally (He's serving in the persian gulf right now.) so I would know you. I'm not going to reveal my handle since that era of my life is past me, but I was in FBR,Public Enemy, and Conquest, not to mention a few other groups. I never cracked games myself, I programmed the flashy intros/demos for the game loaders. (I also released a few programs to patch games and install cheat modes.) This is all very interesting and brings back memories, but it has nothing to do your arguement. Just reminiscing back to when I used to stay up all night playing with my C64. I wasn't a major pirate, just a kid who liked to poke around with the C64 :-). My Commodore 64 system cost approx the same as an Amiga500 does. (C64=$200, 1541=$200, Monitor=$150, printer=$150) My Commodore128 system costed $299 when it first came out, the 1571 disk drive was over $200. Sure Commie 8bit systems were cheap, but not much cheaper than an a500. Especially when the C64 first hit the market. Why don't you figure out why people buy $7000 Mac II systems and not NeXT's? Software and Apple's reputation. Also, people are still afraid of computers. They frequently buy what their friends have. >Great statement. The big question is: "How much will they cost?" Well, GVP and Supra (small companies) have quoted prices at $895 list. The Commodore card will probably be cheaper since Commodore can buy 040's and RAM in muchbigger quantities. I think the 040 itself normally costs around $700. If you're right, a lot of Mac users will be jumping ship. NeXT owner's act like the no other computer will have an 040 at the same price. I remember NeXT users saying 040 Ami boards would cost $2000. The sad fact is, the headstart that the NeXT had with the 040 isn't going to help. 040's will be availible for the Amiga and Mac this year. I'm sure that other companies will sell you an 040 machine for the same price as NeXT, but will they do it in 1991? Keep in mind that the NeXT is more than an 040. The Amiga still doesn't have virtual memory(even Macs have this) or memory protection. The Amiga is a nice machine, but the market is heating up and consumers educated enough to know the better machine by looking at spec. sheet. -Mike
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (04/03/91)
In article <g_7G$f.f1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >The Mac upgrade from Radius costs $3500 as I posted earlier. Sun >sells their IPC(one of them) for $4995, the same as the NeXT. They >also offer an educational discount similar to NeXT's. I assume Sun is >making money. NeXT's is probably making money on their low-end >machines. > >-Mike > The Mac has nothing to do with Amiga. The Mac architecture makes adding an 040 expensive, abut Mac users are used to paying high prices like the $7000 030 Mac IIfx. The Amiga 3000's CPU slot was DESIGNED with the 040 in mind. Just ask the designer, Dave Haynie, he's in this news group. An 040 card for the Amiga 2000 would be more expensive (>$2000) because the 32bit ram and HD controller had tobe put on the card. Difference: The Mac and A500/2000 are 16bit, the A3000 is 32bit. Comprehend? -- /~\_______________________________________________________________________/~\ |n| rjc@albert.ai.mit.edu Amiga, the computer for the creative mind. |n| |~| .-. .-. |~| |_|________________________________| |_| |________________________________|_|
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/03/91)
In article <1991Apr3.083845.13479@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes:
No the Toaster is not being made for the Mac, you have to buy an
Amiga+Toaster+Parallel/Serial connection to use it. NeXTDimension is
way to expensive considering the other boards availible now adays.
It won't give you the same NTSC Video ability that the toaster does either.
If the Toaster only worked in the A3000... NeXTDimension will have
NTSC output. I would think that it is comparable the the Toaster. It
should be, it costs $4000.
People buy Amigas. For Video, Audio and Games. What Niche does the
NeXT occuply?
None at the moment, which could be a problem. I think it has a chance
of taking a piece of the DTP market and, with the NeXTDimension board,
part of the video market.
Commodore has been around since the early 80's/late 70's. I even remember
an old Commodore 'brick' calculator they sold. They had bad years, but
they pulled through to produce the most sucessfl home computer ever created.
(C64). Now they produce one of the best multitasking PC's money can buy.
NeXT's are ok, but the RISC workstations are just so much better
in terms of performance.
It's price/performance, and the NeXT is still competitive. It's a 15
mip, 2.5 MFLOP machine for $5000($3250 educational) plus..., well you
know what else you get.
-Mikemelling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/03/91)
In article <1991Apr3.075643.4472@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > No one is waiting for the 050, but Motorola has made a clear committment to their 680x0 line. If the current 040 is 15 mips then the 50MHz will be 30. And as top RISC machines stomping CISC machines, YOU CAN'T COMPARE MIPS BETWEEN RISC AND CISC CHIPS. The instructions on the RISC chip do less BY DEFINITION. There are lies, damned lies, and benchmarks. The world is hardly being run over by RISC chips, although they are becoming the in-thing in workstations. That is why we use SPECmarks to compare computers instead of mips. Look at HP's Snake line, or any other workstation vendor, to see where the industry is going. -Mike
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (04/03/91)
In article <*68Gc&.f1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >Great statement. The big question is: "How much will they cost?" > Well, GVP and Supra (small companies) have quoted prices at $895 list. > The Commodore card will probably be cheaper since Commodore can buy > 040's and RAM in muchbigger quantities. > >I think the 040 itself normally costs around $700. If you're right, a >lot of Mac users will be jumping ship. Data Point: It is harder to add an 040 to a Mac than it is to an A3000. And and damn near impossible to upgrade the NeXTStation since it has NO SLOTS. Another point: Mac harder/softwaree is historically more expensive than Amiga hardware. > NeXT owner's act like the no other computer will have an 040 at the same > price. I remember NeXT users saying 040 Ami boards would cost $2000. > The sad fact is, the headstart that the NeXT had with the 040 isn't going to > help. 040's will be availible for the Amiga and Mac this year. > >I'm sure that other companies will sell you an 040 machine for the >same price as NeXT, but will they do it in 1991? Sure. Because other machines are expandible. Keep in mind, lots of companies have already announced and developed 040 boards/computers. They are merely waiting for Motorola to ship the chips. >Keep in mind that the NeXT is more than an 040. The Amiga still >doesn't have virtual memory(even Macs have this) or memory protection. >The Amiga is a nice machine, but the market is heating up and >consumers educated enough to know the better machine by looking at >spec. sheet. The Amiga has virtual memory/mmu protection if you purchase Unix for it which IS availible. AT&T Sys V R4 with X windows and openlook. S5R4 Unix incorperates everything BSD has and adds much more. There is lots more software availible for X than there is for NeXTSTEP. The Mac doesn't have VM unless you count unreleased System 7. There is another product called virtual that doesn't use an MMU but the only reason this hack works is because Macs reference memory by double dereferencing pointers. (They call it 'handles') >-Mike > > -- /~\_______________________________________________________________________/~\ |n| rjc@albert.ai.mit.edu Amiga, the computer for the creative mind. |n| |~| .-. .-. |~| |_|________________________________| |_| |________________________________|_|
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/03/91)
In article <1991Apr3.075121.18084@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: Wait, wait, wait. Aren't you saying that the NeXT is the great machine? They don't even HAVE a model for the $1,000 area. The flicker-fixer can be added to an A2000, i.e. anything but an A500, and there is an adaptor for A500s made by third-parties (I believe ICD?). And, as to it not being in the machine, if you have a competent dealer they will install it for you. I'm looking at the complete market. The A500 doesn't compete with the NeXT, it competes with cheap PC compatibles and the low-end Macs -- and Ataris. I was simply making an observation on how I thought the A500 could be improved so that people wouldn't look at a cheap PC clone with a VGA monitor then at the flickering Amiga monitor and decide to buy the PC. The average consumer isn't going to ask for flicker fixer! >Isn't a Toaster being made for the Mac? And don't forget to watch out >for the NeXTDimension board from NeXT. > (I hate to this, but it is well deserved) BZZZZT, wrong. I didn't make an inaccurate statement, I asked a question. However, you get BZZZZT for you lack of knowledge in your other posting about RISC vs. CISC. Do you think pc's outperform workstations? BZZZZZT Wrong answer! But thank you for playing! NewTek is definitely not making a Toaster for the Mac. While there are Apple companies who claim to be making similar devices, that is to be expected. I have seen no price estimates, and of course there is no hardware to SEE on the mac, just advertisements. Lots of vapor. That's why the Amiga has the best character generation software and the best 3-D modeling software of anything in its price range. Yes, a niche market, but that is how Apple started, not so? Why is it better? I'm not that familiar with the Amiga character generation software. How is it better than Display Postscript? Yes, but there were never really any good years for the Amiga at that point. Now it has made its mark. Obviously the Amiga won't last forever, but Commodore can be considered a sure thing for the next 5-10 years, at least if stock-market analysts are to be believed. They've rated Commodore a 'strong-buy' and have said that it is a company to watch for in the 90s. Technology is changing too fast to say that a company is going to be a strong buy throughtout the next decade. With the introduction of HP's Snake machines, all bets are off. What's going to happen when Microsoft, Compaq, and MIPS tell IBM this is how it's going to be? On another thread, how much raw CPU does it take a computer to make up for the advantage the Amiga has with its blitter? Does the blitter effectively run at 14MHz? Someone told me that it was only 3MHz. Does a 33 MHz PC have comparable graphics capabilities to an Amiga 500? -Mike
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/03/91)
In article <1991Apr3.093614.15967@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes:
Damn is it late. I can't believe I stayed up all night.
Data Point: It is harder to add an 040 to a Mac than it is to an A3000. And
and damn near impossible to upgrade the NeXTStation since it has NO SLOTS.
Another point: Mac harder/softwaree is historically more expensive than
Amiga hardware.
I'm not sure if you can upgrade the NeXT slabs either. You might just
buy a new one. The slab itself only costs $2300 after the educational
discount. The monitor is a major expense, but you can keep it.
The Amiga has virtual memory/mmu protection if you purchase Unix for it
which IS availible. AT&T Sys V R4 with X windows and openlook.
S5R4 Unix incorperates everything BSD has and adds much more. There is
lots more software availible for X than there is for NeXTSTEP.
You can't run Unix and your games(or video) at the same time. And X
Windows, along with Motif, is available for the NeXT. Runs in a
window, so you can have NeXTStep, SoftPC, and X Windows all running at
the same time.
The Mac doesn't have VM unless you count unreleased System 7. There is
another product called virtual that doesn't use an MMU but the only reason
this hack works is because Macs reference memory by double
dereferencing pointers. (They call it 'handles')
You can buy inits that give you virtual memory for the Mac. They(it)
have been available for at least a year. Actually, I think we are
thinking of the same product. If so, it requires the 68030 because it
does need the MMU. Anyway, System 7.0 is out next month so virtual is
available. Will Amiga DOS 2.0 be available for the A500 soon?
-Mikejudge@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us (rory toma) (04/03/91)
> > Keep in mind that the NeXT is more than an 040. The Amiga still > doesn't have virtual memory(even Macs have this) or memory protection. > The Amiga is a nice machine, but the market is heating up and > consumers educated enough to know the better machine by looking at > spec. sheet. > > -Mike > Which is exactly why people will buy Amigas, and why EDUCATED people already are. If what you said was true, though, no one in their right mind would pay $2000 for a PS/1 from Sears. The fact is, the average blue-collar, beer drinking person is going to buy a computer that he can pick up at a Sears, Montgomery Wards, Silo or whatever. You know what Mont Ward's top selling CPU has been recently? The Amiga 500. Even with salespeople that know absolutely nothing about it, it has still been selling. The reason? It's $11 a month on your Ward's card, compared to $30 for the 286 sitting next to it. The otherreason? It's a game machine. Why do people usually buy computers? For their kids, and the kids want to play games. Later, they begin to program, DTP and many other things, but they all start out playing games. We are graduating a generation of kids who had a 500 and are now moving in/out of college, andwill want to stick with C= and the Amiga. Who the hell is goingto buy a NeXT for their 11 year old kid? One, you can't get the thing anywhere - How many families with 11 year old kids do you know make regular trips up tothe University to check out NeXT prices? Tell me where you can buy a NeXT otherthan a University? Tell me where you can get a NeXT for under $1000. The C= 64 sold because it was cheap! I still think the Atari 800 was a better machine, but the 64 sold better. You have to realize that most people would rather not spend over $1000, because theyeither don't have it, or would rather spend it on a new boat, car, TV, etc. The # of people willing to shell out car-sized payments for a computer has to be limited, I'm sure. Another point. This NeXT thing, didn't we just go through the same thing with Atari. Why don't we call this comp.sys.Amiga.vs.the.World. Who's next? Sun? DEC? Why don't I tell you how much better my Silicon Graphics workstation is than an Amiga 500. Still another point. I could have sworn that VGA, with all it's niceties, was an OPTION. i.e. an expansion card. Gee, I coulda saved myself money by just hooking up my 1950 monitor to my AT without a card. Making comparisons of this type are like comparing a Hard disk system toa floppy system, because we're not even talking about prices that are close! Last point. Quit comparing your wonderful NeXT and saying you get all this for $3250. You don't. The Extended OS 2.0, which has C++, the debugger, and many otherfine tools, does not fit in the base model. I know, I was torn between a NeXT and a 3000. For a personal computer, it is ridiculous that a 105meg hard drive should be way to small. You really need the 200meg version, which is a little over $4000, I believe. These are just my impressions, but it sure seems like every attacker eventually gives up and leaves... rory P.S. You want a cool machine? Buy a Sun 3. People are practically giving them away.
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (04/03/91)
In article <y39Gf6-f1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <1991Apr3.075121.18084@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > That's why the Amiga has the best character generation > software and the best 3-D modeling software of anything in its > price range. Yes, a niche market, but that is how Apple started, > not so? > >Why is it better? I'm not that familiar with the Amiga character >generation software. How is it better than Display Postscript? He's talking about Video Titling. For instance, Turbo Titler, BroadCast Titler, Tv-Text/Show, not to mention the Toaster's CG. Display Postscript can obviously display text, but can it render it real time at 60 frames per second? The Amiga can do it better, for a cheaper price. > Yes, but there were never really any good years for the > Amiga at that point. Now it has made its mark. Obviously the > Amiga won't last forever, but Commodore can be considered a sure > thing for the next 5-10 years, at least if stock-market analysts > are to be believed. They've rated Commodore a 'strong-buy' and > have said that it is a company to watch for in the 90s. > >Technology is changing too fast to say that a company is going to be a >strong buy throughtout the next decade. With the introduction of HP's >Snake machines, all bets are off. What's going to happen when >Microsoft, Compaq, and MIPS tell IBM this is how it's going to be? 'With the introduction of the innovative revolutionary product X, we are posed to dominate the market.' We have heard this phrase over and over before. No doubt HP's machines will sell, but Sun, Dec, IBM and several other companies will most likely introduce new cheap workstations. >On another thread, how much raw CPU does it take a computer to make up >for the advantage the Amiga has with its blitter? Does the blitter >effectively run at 14MHz? Someone told me that it was only 3MHz. >Does a 33 MHz PC have comparable graphics capabilities to an Amiga >500? The blitter has an effective data rate of 14mhz. The blitter takes 2 cycles to copy data. One to fetch the source, and one to write the data. 14 million cycles per second / 2 cycles per operation = 7 MIPS. That's theoretical. The blitter can do much more than just copy data. It can perform 256 different logic operations to 3 input DMA channels. It can also fill, draw vectors, detect zero bytes, mask and shift data. The blitter isn't innovative anymore, but it still gets the job done. It's the reason the Amiga has such awesome games, and why the Amiga can multitask effectively with only a 68000. Most of the Amiga's hardware is DMA driven, so the processor can go on to more complex jobs rather than do the menial stuff like copying data, feeding a sound chip or loading from the disk drive. >-Mike -- /~\_______________________________________________________________________/~\ |n| rjc@albert.ai.mit.edu Amiga, the computer for the creative mind. |n| |~| .-. .-. |~| |_|________________________________| |_| |________________________________|_|
don@chopin.udel.edu (Donald R Lloyd) (04/04/91)
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >If the Toaster only worked in the A3000... NeXTDimension will have >NTSC output. I would think that it is comparable the the Toaster. It >should be, it costs $4000. It costs $4000 plus the price of a Cube, not the $3250 slab you keep mentioning. You can't plug it into the two pizza-box models. The Toaster will work in A3000's if they you leave the cover off and swap out one of the coprocessors (forget which one) & replace it with its pre-3000 counterpart. Rest assured that the Toaster will be 3000ized eventually. > >None at the moment, which could be a problem. I think it has a chance >of taking a piece of the DTP market and, with the NeXTDimension board, >part of the video market. > I remember someone on the net talking about Framemaker, the big NeXT DTP package. It cost something like $700, if I remember correctly, and a bug fix for it was an additional $500. PageStream on the Amiga costs ~$180 by mail, and a major upgrade from v1.8 to v2.1 only cost me $75. This kind of thing is where the NeXT's apparent price advantage disappears, and is one of the reasons I chose the A3000 over a NeXT slab (not that I'd mind having one around :-). >It's price/performance, and the NeXT is still competitive. It's a 15 >mip, 2.5 MFLOP machine for $5000($3250 educational) plus..., well you >know what else you get. > You get no color, no expansion slots, expensive software, and a long wait before you actually get the machine.... Although this post sounds fairly anti-NeXT, I really do like a lot of the machine's features (esp. that little 68040 feature :-), and I hope it's successful at sucking away a little of the MS-DOS/Mac market; I don't think, though, that it's going to kill the Amiga, any more than Ami has killed the Mac. -- Gibberish May the Publications Editor, AmigaNetwork is spoken fork() be Contact don@brahms.udel.edu for more information. here. with you. DISCLAIMER: It's all YOUR fault.
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/04/91)
In article <g_7G$f.f1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <1991Apr3.070829.31178@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > > Well, what does your company do, what software do you > have on the Amiga, and what are they expected to do with the > machine? It doesn't make much sense to show an Amiga to people > who are interested in doing SQL Database work, for example. > >I am a student who works part time for Penn State as a programmer. We >develop educational software. We have Amiga Vision, and ...I'm not >sure what else. > And so what are their complaints? Have they used AmigaVision for anything? If you just make quick comments on it there is no way to figure out the problem. >The Mac upgrade from Radius costs $3500 as I posted earlier. Sun >sells their IPC(one of them) for $4995, the same as the NeXT. They >also offer an educational discount similar to NeXT's. I assume Sun is >making money. NeXT's is probably making money on their low-end >machines. > I've heard reports that they are selling them at cost. As to Sun, they don't have the same worries as NeXT as they make their own CPU instead of buying from elsewhere. They don't include a DSP. There is also only one unit, just a monitor, no pizza-box. There is also no HD. I'd say their costs are much lower. >-Mike > -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/04/91)
In article <*68Gc&.f1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > > >Keep in mind that the NeXT is more than an 040. The Amiga still >doesn't have virtual memory(even Macs have this) or memory protection. >The Amiga is a nice machine, but the market is heating up and >consumers educated enough to know the better machine by looking at >spec. sheet. > Why is any of that necessary for a "great" machine? Memory protection is not seen in any PC (except for Unixes). As to VM, Commodore is working on that as well, and the Mac DOES NOT have it yet. System 7.0 is not shipping yet. >-Mike > > -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/04/91)
In article <ne8Ged?f1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >If the Toaster only worked in the A3000... NeXTDimension will have >NTSC output. I would think that it is comparable the the Toaster. It >should be, it costs $4000. > The Toaster and NeXTDimension are not comparable items. The NeXTD I believe can do things like display live video in a window, the toaster can't. The Toaster can do video effects such as wipes and fades which the dimension can't. The Dimension also doesn't come with software to take advantage of it, so it will have to be developed. > People buy Amigas. For Video, Audio and Games. What Niche does the > NeXT occuply? > >None at the moment, which could be a problem. I think it has a chance >of taking a piece of the DTP market and, with the NeXTDimension board, >part of the video market. > > > Commodore has been around since the early 80's/late 70's. I even remember > an old Commodore 'brick' calculator they sold. They had bad years, but > they pulled through to produce the most sucessfl home computer ever created. > (C64). Now they produce one of the best multitasking PC's money can buy. > NeXT's are ok, but the RISC workstations are just so much better > in terms of performance. > >It's price/performance, and the NeXT is still competitive. It's a 15 >mip, 2.5 MFLOP machine for $5000($3250 educational) plus..., well you >know what else you get. > >-Mike -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/04/91)
In article <y39Gf6-f1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <1991Apr3.075121.18084@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > >BZZZZT, wrong. I didn't make an inaccurate statement, I asked a >question. However, you get BZZZZT for you lack of knowledge in your >other posting about RISC vs. CISC. Do you think pc's outperform >workstations? > Weren't you saying that the NeXT is faster than the low-end Suns, and the NeXT uses a CISC and the Sun uses a RISC? > That's why the Amiga has the best character generation > software and the best 3-D modeling software of anything in its > price range. Yes, a niche market, but that is how Apple started, > not so? > >Why is it better? I'm not that familiar with the Amiga character >generation software. How is it better than Display Postscript? > Color, anti-aliasing and software to take advantage of that. >On another thread, how much raw CPU does it take a computer to make up >for the advantage the Amiga has with its blitter? Does the blitter >effectively run at 14MHz? Someone told me that it was only 3MHz. >Does a 33 MHz PC have comparable graphics capabilities to an Amiga >500? > It is 7.14MHz to be precise, which is a rate designed to be good for NTSC scan rates. Admittedly it is slow. My 25MHz 030 outperforms it, unless it is busy with other things. It is well known that Commodore is working on improving the custom chips, but it is a slow process if you intend to do a real improvement rather than a quick fix. >-Mike > -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (04/04/91)
In article <ibbG+qlf1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > The basic performance of the 68040 generation NeXT, to the average GUI user > at least, is on the order of what 2nd generation Amiga users have been > enjoying for a long time. While it won't number crunch faster, an A3000 does > nearly everything else faster than a 68040 based NeXT. And you haven't seen > a 68040 based Amiga yet. >Commodore just got the 030 Amiga 3000 out the door. I think it will >be a while before we see an 040 machine from you guys, knowing >Commodore's track record. C= first shipped an '030 machine, the A2500/30, in 1989. The A3000 shipped in June of '90, almost 10 months ago. >Who has NeXT paid to develop software? I've heard this before, but no >one is naming names. Is it just a rumor? Of course it's just a rumor; as a privately held company, NeXT doesn't have to tell. But if you look at any other new computer launch, and which companies get paid for ports, you can't imagine those same folks are jumping on the NeXT bandwagon for free. IBM, for example, has reportedly paid 100's of companies to do RS/6000 ports. And these things DO scare away the competition. Aston-Tate, for example, was working on one NeXT product, a port of their spreadsheet, apparently without funding from NeXT. Now they say it's been indefinitely tabled. Anyone care to guess why? >Anyway, NeXT (or Commodore) doesn't need everyone to develop software for >their machine, just a few good companies(or ones that people recognize :-)) >in the necessary areas like DTP, CAD, accounting, etc. Of course they don't need everyone. And in fact, from what I've seen of the PC market "leaders", I would rather see the #2 or #3 version of each application ported to the Amiga. Those guys in the #1 place, in general, seem to rest on their laurels far too much. >You would think with over 2 million machines more developers would >support the Amiga. As of last year, that was half as many as Apple. >That should be enough to make developers look your way. And there's half the installed base of computers. Like ya said, you don't need everyone writing for the system. NeXT, with about 30 shipping applications (as written up in the Personal Workstation "applications watch") must, by the same logic, really scare away the developers. >Word Perfect 5.0 and a Lotus 123 for the Amiga would sell a lot more >machines. Lotus 123G, maybe. There isn't a high end spreadsheet for the Amiga. I doubt Word Perfect 5.0 would compete all that much better against native Amiga wordprocessors than the original Word Perfect, unless they really got their act together and did things "the Amiga way". >-Mike -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (04/04/91)
In article <*68Gc&.f1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >Keep in mind that the NeXT is more than an 040. The Amiga still >doesn't have virtual memory(even Macs have this) or memory protection. Sure it does, just run Amiga UNIX. You get all that, and the standard AT&T/ Motorola 680x0 UNIX ABI. NeXT OS doesn't have the architectural speed of the AmigaOS. With an '30 or '040 based Amiga, you have your choice. And you can even get a place for add-in cards in that $4000 system. >The Amiga is a nice machine, but the market is heating up and >consumers educated enough to know the better machine by looking at >spec. sheet. Actually, the spec sheet is about as useful as basing a decision strictly on advertisements, since that's basically what it is. You base your decision for a new computer on what you want to do with it, both now and in the future. >-Mike -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
griffin@frith.egr.msu.edu (Danny Griffin) (04/04/91)
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >They aren't accepted in Fortune 500 companies, One reason they 'haven't' been accepted is because most people haven't heard of them or seen them. I work for General Motors [a slower-moving behemoth you'll never see, except maybe the federal government]. It took years for people to convince them to buy some Macs because they thought IBMs were the only real computers. We bought a few A3000s for one of our design departments, and now that people see them and what they can do they want more. Some A3000UXs are in their future, too. Multitasking played a big part of this. > you don't find too many >campus computer labs full of Amigas, and major developers still don't >write software for them. We have one where I work(A2500), but the Hopefully this wil change soon. >Most people aren't interested in speed, they want functionality. It's >what you do with the speed that matters. NeXT gives the consumer >Display Postscript, voice mail, and built in fax capabilities. >The Amiga gives you the best games in the business. I understand this discussion has been focused on the NeXT, but some people also confuse the issue of Amiga v. NeXT v. HP to be linked to the Amiga's future demise. >-Mike -- Dan Griffin griffin@frith.egr.msu.edu
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (04/04/91)
In article <y39Gf6-f1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > That's why the Amiga has the best character generation > software and the best 3-D modeling software of anything in its > price range. >Why is it better? I'm not that familiar with the Amiga character >generation software. How is it better than Display Postscript? Display Postscript is simply an interface layer, it has nothing to do with character generation, 3-D rendering, or any other application you'd care to point at. If you're asking about 3-D rendering software, the reason the Amiga has good 3-D rendering software is that it that it's had such software much longer than other platforms, and what's shipping now has the advantage of being its second or third generation. Same reason people like the Mac's DTP software; it's mature. People were attracted to the Amiga for this, I suppose, based on its natural support of video display and the fact it could support realtime animation, rather than requiring spooling out to videotape. The ability to spit out NTSC doesn't simply make a system good at video. The Amiga can also genlock. And it can display a 1280x400 (nominial) image, which helps out titling considerable. It supports overscan, crutial to video work. Video Toaster is even more suited to video display. It supports a full color 1500x900-something NTSC display. Multiple input sources switched in software. Digital video effects in real time. And, apparently, much more. Along with a boatload of softare. You can't do any better on any personal computer. >On another thread, how much raw CPU does it take a computer to make up >for the advantage the Amiga has with its blitter? Does the blitter >effectively run at 14MHz? Someone told me that it was only 3MHz. Someone was confused. The Amiga chip bus runs 280ns cycles, effectively the same speed as a 14.3MHz 68000. Except for the fact that Agnus' bit image manipulator ("blitter") does barrel shifting, line draw, and modulos in hardware. So it does image manipulation much faster than a 14MHz 68000. >Does a 33 MHz PC have comparable graphics capabilities to an Amiga 500? Yes and no. Typical 33MHz PClones can't move graphics around as efficiently, but the SVGA display adaptor certainly has better resolutions available -- 31kHz/35ns pixels, 24 bit CLUT, 8 bits/pixel, etc. The typical A500 SCSI hard disk controller is, as well, far more efficient than the typical EDSI interface on a 33MHz PClone (in PC parlance, the A500 controllers are bus masters), though this only becomes important when multitasking (which the A500 does, of course). >-Mike -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
vsolanoy@ozonebbs.UUCP (Victor Solanoy) (04/04/91)
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > True, this is why it's nice to use a machine that uses a 15 mip 68040 > in its base model. During the NeXT several years, developers can > assume this where the NeXT is concerned, but they will have to develop > for the A500 when they program on the Amiga. Of course, most > developers probably aren't going to bother with the Amiga at all. > > -Mike I was hoping you weren't gonna say anything like that. 8) Personally, the home market doesn't need anything like a 14 mip 68040, a SPARC-2, or an RS-6000... most businesses probably don't need it either. The Amiga is definately in trouble in terms of the scientific field if nothing is done about it though (I heard that Commodore is pushing in education, engineering, and the scientific fields now that the business market is saturated with IBM PC type computers and Macintoshes... have not I idea if this has an ounce of truth). Victor
mpierce@ewu.UUCP (Mathew Pierce) (04/04/91)
In article <u76Ge_wf1@cs.psu.edu>, melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > In article <1991Apr3.051014.5474@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > [a bunch of stuff deleted.] > > if you run acrossed any software that says "Cracked courtesy of the > Condor", that was me. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ I guess that's like saying "If you find a bunch of your stuff missing, I stole it."
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (04/04/91)
In article <gi1Gxwqf1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > The Amiga lost because it was branded a GAME MACHINE, the user > interface didn't/doesn't look as good/professional (Zzzz) as the Macs, > and it used to GURU meditate a little too much. Lest we forget, > Commodore didn't know how to market the machine either. They still sold more machines in the first year than NeXT. How is NeXT's great marketing doing? What are the final sales figures on the Cube, and how do they match up to the 100,000 Amiga 1000s (let alone the 2,000,000 Amiga 500s)? The NeXT has all the advantages and disadvantages as the Amiga did, and it's not selling as well... that tells me my analogy is pretty much on the mark. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) (04/04/91)
> It will leave here untouch except for a few demos. Damn shame. You're right. It is a damn shame. And unfortunately, its your loss. The amiga is one of the best computers I've ever owned, and believe me I've owned alot. And I'm not talking ancient crap either. IIci. Dumpied it. NeXT was an idea, but decided on an Amiga because unless I were to run an ethernet cable from here to school, it would be a useless lump of shit sitting on my computer table, getting about as much use as that funny green tie I got for christmas last year. The tie is a joke, and unfortunately, so is the NeXT. > How old are you? So what? It's what runs on your machine, not how > much software is available. Come on, think about this. By the way, > if you run acrossed any software that says "Cracked courtesy of the > Condor", that was me. > Ahh, what a genius. Calling people children, and then saying this. I hate to see the day when REAL software comes out for the NeXT. Because you'll probably be a pirate then, too. It's sad, really. This completely destroys any credibility you could ever have, Mr. Condor. It's a good thing you're near extinction... I wish I could finish you off. And it is how much software is available, pal. I will NOT be deadlocked into a particular piece of software, my fine, felonious friend. And because of what is NOT available on the NeXT, or is available in one or two packages at most, I would rather pull my hair out trying to learn MS-DOG then use software I use because I HAVE TO, not because it's the best. I can choose the best software for my Amiga, and right now you're pretty well deadlocked into all of that free software you get when you buy it. Have fun at the copy partys, fool. -- - gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu - | IBM's brain is on overload, and Apple Gregory Block | needs to be potty-trained. C= may not Toaster+Amiga=The One True DTV | be marketing geniuses, but theyre the ________________________________| best engineers I've seen... -Wubba
gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) (04/04/91)
From article <ne8Ged?f1@cs.psu.edu>, by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): > If the Toaster only worked in the A3000... NeXTDimension will have > NTSC output. I would think that it is comparable the the Toaster. It > should be, it costs $4000. The toaster DOES work on the 3000. Now, anyways. Adapters now exist. And does it offer framebuffers? Realtime DVI? 4 video ins? A preview? Okay how nifty. Now, the big one. Does it come with the BEST 3d raytracing package on the market? How's about maybe something like "ToasterPaint"? Or perhaps yours will be slightly less usable, and maybe more on the Useless side of things. And maybe live teleconferencing won't be quite so easy on yours as it is in a real-time system like the Amiga. You give the toaster far less credit than you think. Most importantly, you don't need to buy a 4000 dollar computer to use a 4000 dollar piece of equipment. You can buy a 2000, and 7 megs of ram, and it's still good. And don't forget that the toaster only costs 1500. Something else you can't say. > > None at the moment, which could be a problem. I think it has a chance > of taking a piece of the DTP market and, with the NeXTDimension board, > part of the video market. > > -Mike And you think THAT'S the problem? I hope that the NextDimension board is more than just a toaster clone. And I hope it's at LEAST as useful. Because Next is up for a fight. No, commodore may not know how to market (yet). But you can bet your butt that NewTek does. And with the marketing lead already held by NewTek, you're in for a helluva fight. -- - gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu - | IBM's brain is on overload, and Apple Gregory Block | needs to be potty-trained. C= may not Toaster+Amiga=The One True DTV | be marketing geniuses, but theyre the ________________________________| best engineers I've seen... -Wubba
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/04/91)
In article <20327@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes:
Sure it does, just run Amiga UNIX. You get all that, and the standard AT&T/
Motorola 680x0 UNIX ABI. NeXT OS doesn't have the architectural speed of the
AmigaOS. With an '30 or '040 based Amiga, you have your choice. And you can
even get a place for add-in cards in that $4000 system.
But you can't run Unix and the AmigaOS at the same time. Don't you
lose the advatage of having the current crop of Amiga apps being
available? And all your graphics programming must now be done in X.
-Mikemelling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/04/91)
In article <20329@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >On another thread, how much raw CPU does it take a computer to make up >for the advantage the Amiga has with its blitter? Does the blitter >effectively run at 14MHz? Someone told me that it was only 3MHz. Someone was confused. The Amiga chip bus runs 280ns cycles, effectively the same speed as a 14.3MHz 68000. Except for the fact that Agnus' bit image manipulator ("blitter") does barrel shifting, line draw, and modulos in hardware. So it does image manipulation much faster than a 14MHz 68000. The confused person was a local Amiga zealot. I tried telling him that the Amiga's graphics chip ran at 14MHz, but he refused to believe me. He kept insisting that it was only 3MHz. -Mike
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/04/91)
In article <q2aGezeg1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <20327@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: > > > Sure it does, just run Amiga UNIX. You get all that, and the standard AT&T/ > Motorola 680x0 UNIX ABI. NeXT OS doesn't have the architectural speed of the > AmigaOS. With an '30 or '040 based Amiga, you have your choice. And you can > even get a place for add-in cards in that $4000 system. > >But you can't run Unix and the AmigaOS at the same time. Don't you >lose the advatage of having the current crop of Amiga apps being >available? And all your graphics programming must now be done in X. > That is true. So what? You choose which operating system you want. If you want AmigaDOS only, get a non-Unix Amiga. If you want Unix, get a unix Amiga. Although Unix and AmigaDOS don't run concurrently, you can reboot into either and so use whatever you like. And your point about X isn't such a big deal either as X is a standard. BTW, you can safely expect all software made in the future for the Sun to be made for Amiga Unix, because all that will be necessary is a simple recompilation. >-Mike -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/04/91)
In article <1991Apr3.190802.11055@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
They still sold more machines in the first year than NeXT. How is NeXT's
great marketing doing? What are the final sales figures on the Cube, and
how do they match up to the 100,000 Amiga 1000s (let alone the 2,000,000
Amiga 500s)?
I think NeXT sold somewhere b/w 7,000 and 10,000 original machines.
They have sold around 20,000 new machines(this is all from following
the news rags and the net, NeXT doesn't release sales figures).
I do believe the original Amiga was prices around $1800. That might
be the reason that the sold more. What do ya think?
The NeXT has all the advantages and disadvantages as the Amiga did, and it's
not selling as well... that tells me my analogy is pretty much on the mark.
The NeXT is selling well. They are in the $5000 market. You just
don't sell as many machines there. Commodore has sold more machines
than Sun too, but most people would buy stock in Sun.
NeXT question.
-Mikees1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/04/91)
In article <n9bG2xgg1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >The NeXT is selling well. They are in the $5000 market. You just >don't sell as many machines there. Commodore has sold more machines >than Sun too, but most people would buy stock in Sun. > 20,000 machines isn't so hot, actually. It certainly isn't enought to keep the company afloat, nor will it generate enough sales to keep ANY software houses from the big-world happy. WordPerfect and Lotus will turn back unless sales pick up, as no matter what Steve Jobs wants, they want money. And despite the claims that Lotus couldn't do this on anything but the NeXT environment, they will soon port it to MS Windows and probably XWindows/Unix. I seriously doubt that developing on the NeXT and then porting is CHEAPER than just developing on the destination machine. Jobs probably promised these companies a rose garden. They will soon be disillusioned. Of course, CBM did the same thing back in 1985, and many were soon disillusioned. As to buying stock, as I mentioned before Commodore has been given "Strong Buy" status by a major Wall Street analyst firm. That, combined with very strong sales over the second half of 1990, have resulted in the stock quadrupling in the past 9 months (BTW, a round of applause to those with the vision and money to buy in at $4/share!) How's NeXT stock doing? That's right, they are afraid to make things public. >NeXT question. Arggggghhhhh!!! 8-) > >-Mike > -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
stevew@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Steven L Wootton) (04/04/91)
In article <n9bG2xgg1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >The NeXT is selling well. They are in the $5000 market. You just >don't sell as many machines there. Commodore has sold more machines >than Sun too, but most people would buy stock in Sun. Really? Sun is supposed to be selling more than 250,000 boxes this year (EE Times, April 1, 1991). How many boxes will Commodore ship? Steve Wootton stevew@ecn.purdue.edu stevew@pur-ee.uucp stevew%ecn.purdue.edu@purccvm.bitnet
dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (04/04/91)
In article <ne8Ged?f1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <1991Apr3.083845.13479@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > > >It's price/performance, and the NeXT is still competitive. It's a 15 >mip, 2.5 MFLOP machine for $5000($3250 educational) plus..., well you >know what else you get. > >-Mike Lets see now... the Next has had a 68040 for about five months now... AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! Tell me it's not true!! Human beings have been on the planet Earth for aproximately 2 million years. The Next 68040 has been around for bout one half of a year. That is about 0.00000025% of the span of history tha you have to be proud of! (The Amiga has 0.000003% of our existance, which is much higher than that weenie slice the Next has.... :) David :) -- David Tiberio SUNY Stony Brook 2-3481 AMIGA DDD-MEN -- Any students from SUNY Oswego? Please let me know! :) -- Looking to buy a used 68000 CPU and 1.3 Kickstart
schweige@aldebaran.cs.nps.navy.mil (Jeffrey M. Schweiger) (04/04/91)
In article <n9bG2xgg1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >The NeXT is selling well. They are in the $5000 market. You just >don't sell as many machines there. Commodore has sold more machines >than Sun too, but most people would buy stock in Sun. Considering that at close of business today the price of Sun common stock was about 120% of the price it was at close of business 23 August 1990 (32 3/8 vs. 26 3/8), and the price of Commodore common stock at close of business today was about 420% of what it was at close of business 23 August 1990 (19 3/8 vs. 4 5/8), may 'most people' should have bought stock in Commodore. >NeXT question. Next comment. >-Mike Jeff Schweiger -- ******************************************************************************* Jeff Schweiger Standard Disclaimer CompuServe: 74236,1645 Internet (Milnet): schweige@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil *******************************************************************************
schweige@aldebaran.cs.nps.navy.mil (Jeffrey M. Schweiger) (04/04/91)
In article <1991Apr4.021357.4013@en.ecn.purdue.edu> stevew@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Steven L Wootton) writes: >In article <n9bG2xgg1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >> >>The NeXT is selling well. They are in the $5000 market. You just >>don't sell as many machines there. Commodore has sold more machines >>than Sun too, but most people would buy stock in Sun. > >Really? Sun is supposed to be selling more than 250,000 boxes this year >(EE Times, April 1, 1991). How many boxes will Commodore ship? Considering that in the less than six years since the Amiga was first introduced, Commodore has sold over 2 million of them, that works out to an average of over 330,000 Amigas per year (and probably more, but I don't know when in 1985 the Amiga first started shipping, and I don't know how many Amiga's over the 2 million mark have been sold). I've seen nothing to indicate that Commodore will be shipping Amigas at any slower rate in the near future, either. Jeff Schweiger -- ******************************************************************************* Jeff Schweiger Standard Disclaimer CompuServe: 74236,1645 Internet (Milnet): schweige@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil *******************************************************************************
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/04/91)
In article <2045@aldebaran.cs.nps.navy.mil> schweige@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil (Jeffrey M. Schweiger) writes: >In article <1991Apr4.021357.4013@en.ecn.purdue.edu> stevew@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Steven L Wootton) writes: >>In article <n9bG2xgg1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >>> >>>The NeXT is selling well. They are in the $5000 market. You just >>>don't sell as many machines there. Commodore has sold more machines >>>than Sun too, but most people would buy stock in Sun. >> >>Really? Sun is supposed to be selling more than 250,000 boxes this year >>(EE Times, April 1, 1991). How many boxes will Commodore ship? > >Considering that in the less than six years since the Amiga was first >introduced, Commodore has sold over 2 million of them, that works out to >an average of over 330,000 Amigas per year (and probably more, but I don't >know when in 1985 the Amiga first started shipping, and I don't know how >many Amiga's over the 2 million mark have been sold). I've seen nothing >to indicate that Commodore will be shipping Amigas at any slower rate in the >near future, either. > I believe the number over the time from July 1, 1989 through June 30, 1990 was about 550,000 machines, and Commodore has reported that since then sales are up over 20%. As well, the Christmas quarter showed the third largest sales of any CBM quarter ever. >Jeff Schweiger >-- >******************************************************************************* >Jeff Schweiger Standard Disclaimer CompuServe: 74236,1645 >Internet (Milnet): schweige@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil >******************************************************************************* -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/04/91)
In article <1991Apr4.005212.17755@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > That is true. So what? You choose which operating system you want. If you want AmigaDOS only, get a non-Unix Amiga. If you want Unix, get a unix Amiga. Although Unix and AmigaDOS don't run concurrently, you can reboot into either and so use whatever you like. And your point about X isn't such a big deal either as X is a standard. BTW, you can safely expect all software made in the future for the Sun to be made for Amiga Unix, because all that will be necessary is a simple recompilation. Which X standard are you talking about? Motif or Open Look? Errrh, I should be asking which windowing system. I think you may be over simplifying the the ease with you are going to get Sun software to run on the Amiga. Anyway, wouldn't you much rather run that same software on an 040 NeXT, or better yet an HP Snake :-)? Why is it only future software? dBase IV, Lotus 123, and WP all run on the Sun now. -Mike
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/04/91)
In article <1991Apr4.015311.19714@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: 20,000 machines isn't so hot, actually. It certainly isn't enought to keep the company afloat, nor will it generate enough sales to keep ANY software houses from the big-world happy. WordPerfect and Lotus will turn back unless sales pick up, as no matter what Steve Jobs wants, they want money. It's a start. I think Sun sold around 180,000 machines last year, while its closest competitor sold half as many. NeXT should sell between 40,000 and 50,000 machines this year. They will need a lower priced machine to sell more, and I'm sure that they know that. However, the people/companies who can spend $5000 on a computer are also the ones who can afford to pay $500 for a word processor and another $500 for a spreadsheet. And despite the claims that Lotus couldn't do this on anything but the NeXT environment, they will soon port it to MS Windows and probably XWindows/Unix. I seriously doubt that developing on the NeXT and then porting is CHEAPER than just developing on the destination machine. But the NeXT is magical :-). You write software correctly the first time :-). Jobs probably promised these companies a rose garden. They will soon be disillusioned. Of course, CBM did the same thing back in 1985, and many were soon disillusioned. Commodore screwed up big time. They had the machine, but didn't know what to do with it. Too bad Jack Tramail couldn't buy the Amiga when he went to Atari. As to buying stock, as I mentioned before Commodore has been given "Strong Buy" status by a major Wall Street analyst firm. That, combined with very strong sales over the second half of 1990, have resulted in the stock quadrupling in the past 9 months (BTW, a round of applause to those with the vision and money to buy in at $4/share!) How's NeXT stock doing? That's right, they are afraid to make things public. What do you want NeXT to make public? What does it matter? >NeXT question. -Mike
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/04/91)
In article <jcGp1lg1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >Which X standard are you talking about? Motif or Open Look? Errrh, I >should be asking which windowing system. > Open Look comes with the system, and apparently some company is already working on Motif. >I think you may be over simplifying the the ease with you are going to >get Sun software to run on the Amiga. Anyway, wouldn't you much >rather run that same software on an 040 NeXT, or better yet an HP >Snake :-)? Why is it only future software? dBase IV, Lotus 123, and >WP all run on the Sun now. > Not at all oversimplified! That's why Commodore chose to follow the AT&T standard. With SVR4, any program which uses the standard Unix accompaniments, including X, will work with nothing more than a recompile on any other machine running SVR4. In fact, if the processor is the same no recompilation is necessary, the binary runs on both machines. Welcome to the wonderful world of ABI. 8) Why wouldn't I rather run them on an 040 NeXT? First, please, stop this "040" next stuff, cause everyone will be getting 040s soon enough. We're waiting for Motorola to get out those bugs that NeXT was willing to live with. Besides, you can't just do a recompilation to run it on the NeXT, and to use the pretty NeXTstep/Display Postscript interface will require a complete rewrite, so even if they did do a basic port (with changes) it still won't take advantage of the NeXT's main advantage. The reason I say future software is that, although Sun is adopting the SVR4 standard, I don't believe it is done yet. >-Mike -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/04/91)
In article <t11Gi=lg1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >In article <1991Apr4.015311.19714@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > > Jobs probably promised these companies a rose garden. > They will soon be disillusioned. Of course, CBM did the same > thing back in 1985, and many were soon disillusioned. > >Commodore screwed up big time. They had the machine, but didn't know >what to do with it. Too bad Jack Tramail couldn't buy the Amiga when >he went to Atari. > Commodore didn't commit serious money to the Amiga. They have a hard time shifting from the game machine -- no support company. As well, no one will believe that Commodore could possibly be making something other than a game machine. As to wishing Jack Tramiel had the Amiga, you're crazy! Look what he's doing over at Atari! He hasn't shown any interest in promoting things other than as a game machine. >What do you want NeXT to make public? What does it matter? > I would like to know how much money they take in in sales, and what their earnings are. Every publically traded company has to say that. > >NeXT question. > >-Mike -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) (04/04/91)
In article <u76Ge_wf1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >In article <1991Apr3.051014.5474@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > > How can you send fax without a modem or ethernet? Sure NeXT has > an ethernet port, buthow many people can afford an Internet connection? > Voice-Mail from one NeXT to Another in the same computer lab is about > as useful as making a telephone call from your bedroom to your basement. > >It works great acrossed campus. I'm not sure how many Fortune 500 >companies are using ethernet? Voice mail will work through a modem. >It's just a compress'ed tar file. And I guess you'd have to buy a fax >machine to send faxes. Fax machines are pretty common, ya know. So you're saying that a company or college can use voice mail or they can use their _already_existing_ telephone system. Sounds like Northern Telecom had better brace for a run on their business... ;-) Remember that nearly the same hype went on when the 030 NeXT was released. It wasn't long before the NeXT fell by the wayside. The software developers weren't making any money, and neither was NeXT. Software development by large companies came to a standstill. I predict that the same thing will happen today. The NeXT just doesn't have a good market. In the realm of personal computers, it a pricey machine with a handful of software titles (that are also quite pricey). In the business world, it has too many powerful competitors that offer more support (remember, businesses don't pay the educational price). In the video world, well, we know who has that tied up. ;) For music? There are many cheaper and more suited MIDI boxes. You might check into whether NeXT has ever shown a profit. You may be surprised... Greg -- Greg Harp |"How I wish, how I wish you were here. We're just two |lost souls swimming in a fishbowl, year after year, greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu|running over the same ground. What have we found? s609@cs.utexas.edu |The same old fears. Wish you were here." - Pink Floyd
cs326ag@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Loren J. Rittle) (04/04/91)
In article <1991Apr4.021357.4013@en.ecn.purdue.edu> stevew@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Steven L Wootton) writes: >Really? Sun is supposed to be selling more than 250,000 boxes this year >(EE Times, April 1, 1991). How many boxes will Commodore ship? Including C= 64's or not? :-) I won't as they aren't real boxes... >Steve Wootton >stevew@ecn.purdue.edu >stevew@pur-ee.uucp >stevew%ecn.purdue.edu@purccvm.bitnet Well, my guess, if current trends continue... C= will sell between 750,000 and 1,000,000 Amiga computers in 1991. Loren J. Rittle The only proof I offer is this: 2,000,000 Amiga's have been sold in the last 3 years. -- ``NewTek stated that the Toaster *would* *not* be made to directly support the Mac, at this point Sculley stormed out of the booth...'' --- A scene at the recent MacExpo. Gee, you wouldn't think that an Apple Exec would be so worried about one little Amiga device... Loren J. Rittle l-rittle@uiuc.edu
torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) (04/04/91)
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > The Mac doesn't have VM unless you count unreleased System 7. There is >another product called virtual that doesn't use an MMU Why is it then, that Virtual REQUIRES a 68851 PMMU on 68020 Macs? Could it possibly be that Virtual DOES use the MMU (in fact, it does, using 4KB paged virtual memory via the 68851 or the 68030). >but the only reason >this hack works is because Macs reference memory by double >dereferencing pointers. (They call it 'handles') As my good friend David would say, "What a load of WaldenBollocks". -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu "Dear Fascist Bully Boy, Give me some money, or else. Neil. P.S. May the seed of your loins be fruitful in the womb of your woman..."
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/05/91)
In article <46670@ut-emx.uucp> greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) writes:
So you're saying that a company or college can use voice mail or they can use
their _already_existing_ telephone system. Sounds like Northern Telecom had
better brace for a run on their business... ;-)
Mailing apps, documents, etc. is also turnkey with NeXT mail. That in
itself is very important to the average user.
Remember that nearly the same hype went on when the 030 NeXT was released.
It wasn't long before the NeXT fell by the wayside. The software developers
weren't making any money, and neither was NeXT. Software development by
large companies came to a standstill. I predict that the same thing will
happen today.
Can I quote you on that? :-)
The NeXT just doesn't have a good market. In the realm of personal
computers, it a pricey machine with a handful of software titles (that are
also quite pricey). In the business world, it has too many powerful
competitors that offer more support (remember, businesses don't pay the
educational price). In the video world, well, we know who has that tied
up. ;) For music? There are many cheaper and more suited MIDI boxes.
$5000 for a business computer is not that much. Check the prices of
last years Macs.
You might check into whether NeXT has ever shown a profit. You may be
surprised...
I thought we were comparing the merits of the machines, not the
companies? If we were all looking for safety, we would buy IBMs.
-Mikesss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Napalm) (04/05/91)
In article <0c9G.k-f1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <1991Apr3.093614.15967@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > The Mac doesn't have VM unless you count unreleased System 7. There is > another product called virtual that doesn't use an MMU but the only reason > this hack works is because Macs reference memory by double > dereferencing pointers. (They call it 'handles') > >You can buy inits that give you virtual memory for the Mac. They(it) >have been available for at least a year. Actually, I think we are >thinking of the same product. If so, it requires the 68030 because it >does need the MMU. Anyway, System 7.0 is out next month so virtual is We've heard this before. I think I first head this last year. "next month." >available. Will Amiga DOS 2.0 be available for the A500 soon? a month before system 7? it seems Ms-dos 5.0, Workbench 2.0 and System 7 are in a race to be the last os to be released. "next month" is all I hear. >-Mike > >
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/05/91)
In article <1991Apr4.212246.27944@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Napalm) writes: >You can buy inits that give you virtual memory for the Mac. They(it) >have been available for at least a year. Actually, I think we are >thinking of the same product. If so, it requires the 68030 because it >does need the MMU. Anyway, System 7.0 is out next month so virtual is We've heard this before. I think I first head this last year. "next month." >available. Will Amiga DOS 2.0 be available for the A500 soon? a month before system 7? it seems Ms-dos 5.0, Workbench 2.0 and System 7 are in a race to be the last os to be released. "next month" is all I hear. >-Mike > But you heard it from me so that makes it true. :-) Would I lie to you? -Mike
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (04/05/91)
In article <n9bG2xgg1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > I do believe the original Amiga was prices around $1800. That might > be the reason that the sold more. What do ya think? What, you mean the fact that the Amiga still gives you more bang for the buck than any other personal computer? Isn't that the point? > Commodore has sold more machines > than Sun too, but most people would buy stock in Sun. Gamblers are always impressed by style, and that's what the stock market is all about. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/05/91)
In article <1991Apr5.003122.2316@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: In article <n9bG2xgg1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > I do believe the original Amiga was prices around $1800. That might > be the reason that the sold more. What do ya think? What, you mean the fact that the Amiga still gives you more bang for the buck than any other personal computer? Isn't that the point? My point(answer to the original poster) was that the original Amigas were in a cheaper market than the original $8000 NeXT's. That is why Commodore sold more machines in the Amiga's first year, or at least my reasoning. -Mike
greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) (04/05/91)
In article <n9bG2xgg1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >In article <1991Apr3.190802.11055@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >The NeXT is selling well. They are in the $5000 market. You just >don't sell as many machines there. Commodore has sold more machines >than Sun too, but most people would buy stock in Sun. YOU haven't check Commodore's stock prices lately, have you? My April 4th _New_York_Times_ shows it at 19 3/8, up 1/8. The day before it was up 1 3/8. Last July (when I started watching Commodore stock) it was around $7. I _WISH_ I'd had the money to invest back then... I saw something recently recommending Commodore stock. >NeXT question. Ok, if you're so turned on by the NeXT, why are you here in an Amiga group? You've shown several times how uninformed you are about the Amiga. Maybe you should be posting to comp.sys.amiga.introduction... >-Mike Greg -- Greg Harp |"How I wish, how I wish you were here. We're just two |lost souls swimming in a fishbowl, year after year, greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu|running over the same ground. What have we found? s609@cs.utexas.edu |The same old fears. Wish you were here." - Pink Floyd
greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) (04/05/91)
In article <t11Gi=lg1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >What do you want NeXT to make public? What does it matter? Sales figures, profits, etc. Such things are important to developers. They have to know what to expect when they go to market. You see, keeping such data secret allows Steve Jobs to ignore the fact that NeXT isn't making any profits, nor have they ever done so. It allows him to pull his creditor's chains just a bit longer. It allows him to talk companies (with a bit o'the green in his hands) into developing, promising them many returns for their time invester. Steve Jobs' whole marketing strategy is based on secrecy and dishonesty. You want an example? Ok. Consider the big educational discount hype. Ol' Steve is trying to sell a crippled system (only 105MB drive, no compiler, no man pages, Mathematica's gone, Lotus is gone -- you get the license for the compiler and the man pages but you're SOL until you invest in another drive) as the perfect student's machine. WHAT?!?! In addition, the average student doesn't have internet access (ask most college students if they know what the internet IS) so the only software they can get is commercial and EXPEN$IVE! >-Mike Greg -- Greg Harp |"How I wish, how I wish you were here. We're just two |lost souls swimming in a fishbowl, year after year, greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu|running over the same ground. What have we found? s609@cs.utexas.edu |The same old fears. Wish you were here." - Pink Floyd
don@chopin.udel.edu (Donald R Lloyd) (04/05/91)
<jcGp1lg1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >I think you may be over simplifying the the ease with you are going to >get Sun software to run on the Amiga. Anyway, wouldn't you much >rather run that same software on an 040 NeXT, or better yet an HP >Snake :-)? Why is it only future software? dBase IV, Lotus 123, and >WP all run on the Sun now. > If the software is compliant with the ABI binary standard for 680x0-based UNIX systems, it should run without even the need for recompilation. Send me a NeXT or a Snake with some software & I'll let you know how I like 'em :-) -- Gibberish May the Publications Editor, AmigaNetwork is spoken fork() be Contact don@brahms.udel.edu for more information. here. with you. DISCLAIMER: It's all YOUR fault.
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/06/91)
In article <46749@ut-emx.uucp> greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) writes:
Sales figures, profits, etc. Such things are important to developers. They
have to know what to expect when they go to market.
You see, keeping such data secret allows Steve Jobs to ignore the fact that
NeXT isn't making any profits, nor have they ever done so. It allows him to
pull his creditor's chains just a bit longer. It allows him to talk companies
(with a bit o'the green in his hands) into developing, promising them many
returns for their time invester.
Steve Jobs' whole marketing strategy is based on secrecy and dishonesty. You
want an example? Ok. Consider the big educational discount hype. Ol' Steve
is trying to sell a crippled system (only 105MB drive, no compiler, no man
pages, Mathematica's gone, Lotus is gone -- you get the license for the
compiler and the man pages but you're SOL until you invest in another drive)
as the perfect student's machine. WHAT?!?! In addition, the average student
doesn't have internet access (ask most college students if they know what the
internet IS) so the only software they can get is commercial and EXPEN$IVE!
Let's consider the big educational discount. A 68040(has FPU built
in) machine with a 105MB hard drive, 8MB of RAM, a DSP, , a 2.88MB
floppy drive, a 17" 92dpi monochrome monitor(2 bit gray scale) with
only part of the software installed. What kind of Mac could you get
for that price($3300)? Of course we aren't interested in the Mac
here. I think $3300 will buy you a 105MB 25MHz Amiga 3000(how much
RAM? -- with Unix?). 8MB of RAM and a 105MB hard drive is not
optimal, but it is quite usable. How much space do you have free on
your hard disk?
You can get software from friends or a local users group, if one
exists. How did Amiga users deal with this when the Amiga was first
released?
-Mike
BTW: Lotus Improv was shipped free to users who bought their machines
before March 31. It wasn't included on the HD.melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/07/91)
In article <2wBuZ3w164w@ozonebbs.UUCP> vsolanoy@ozonebbs.UUCP (Victor Solanoy) writes:
I was hoping you weren't gonna say anything like that. 8)
Personally, the home market doesn't need anything like a 14 mip 68040, a
SPARC-2, or an RS-6000... most businesses probably don't need it either.
The Amiga is definately in trouble in terms of the scientific field if
nothing is done about it though (I heard that Commodore is pushing in
education, engineering, and the scientific fields now that the business
market is saturated with IBM PC type computers and Macintoshes... have not I
idea if this has an ounce of truth).
Victor
In 5 years, a machine more powerful than the SPARC II will easily sell
for a $1000. As for what to do with it, use your imagination.
-Mikegreg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) (04/08/91)
In article <_z8Gw7zh1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >Let's consider the big educational discount. A 68040(has FPU built >in) machine with a 105MB hard drive, 8MB of RAM, a DSP, , a 2.88MB >floppy drive, a 17" 92dpi monochrome monitor(2 bit gray scale) with >only part of the software installed. What kind of Mac could you get >for that price($3300)? Of course we aren't interested in the Mac >here. I think $3300 will buy you a 105MB 25MHz Amiga 3000(how much >RAM? -- with Unix?). 8MB of RAM and a 105MB hard drive is not >optimal, but it is quite usable. How much space do you have free on >your hard disk? Did you miss reading my post? I didn't say the NeXT's discount was _bad_. I said the sales program was. Since I didn't quote what I said, I'll paraphrase the jist of it. Steve Jobs has started another of his dishonest programs where he sells an under-equipped version of a machine at a low initial price and then soaks the user for all subsequent purchases. He sells a Unix box which doesn't even have space for the release software, much less enough to do any work. Once the user figures out they need more, he sticks them with high-priced expansions. Most users don't know that they can buy regular 8-bit SIMMs instead of NeXT's $2995-per-8MB ones. Many don't know how to install a hard drive, and will have to pay some NeXT-specific person (how should they know that anyone could do it) to install it for them. Once Steve Jobs has his foot in your door he's also got his hand in your wallet. >You can get software from friends or a local users group, if one >exists. How did Amiga users deal with this when the Amiga was first >released? With 30,000 machines what kind of user groups can you expect? It's possible that you _might_ know someone else who owns a NeXT, but it's a small chance. >-Mike > >BTW: Lotus Improv was shipped free to users who bought their machines >before March 31. It wasn't included on the HD. My mistake. Of course, how do you put it on an already-full 105MB drive? :) BTW, how much does Improv cost now? Greg -- Greg Harp |"How I wish, how I wish you were here. We're just two |lost souls swimming in a fishbowl, year after year, greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu|running over the same ground. What have we found? s609@cs.utexas.edu |The same old fears. Wish you were here." - Pink Floyd
tinman@agora.rain.com (David Tinnyo) (04/08/91)
There is a big issue that is really being ignored in this debate: The people buying Amiga's right now are a totally different class of people than the people interested in the NeXT. I see NeXT attempting to convert people from the workstation and possible PC-DOS markets. In other words, they are businessmen, educators, and scientists/engineers. Most of these people own computers already and expect certain applications (DB, SpreadSheet, Statistical, Graphing, WP, etc). The vast majority of Amiga people I've been exposed to don't give a S**T about those applications. Many of my friends are electronic musicians, video/performance artists etc. These are the kinds of people who are buying Amigas. They want a computer that will allow their own creativity to be enhanced/magnified. And with their budgets, it has to be dirt cheap. Showing them a computer that starts up with a login message is completely ridiculous. No matter how you feel about Commodore Marketing, you've got to give them credit for getting these kind of people interested in computers. It's really a blast to see a guy with a nose ring, dreadlocks, and cut off gloves boasting proudly about his new GVP add-on. Can you say 'bohemian technology?' I think that the NeXT (or something like it) will really revolutionize 'business/professional' computing. But I got tired of that kind of programming a long time ago. It's much more exciting to develop software for 'garage video/music producers.' And the parties are a lot more fun, too. :) --- David E. Tin Nyo "The key to the future is information, tinman@agora.rain.com and it is FREE." -The Phoenix Project ---
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/09/91)
In article <46835@ut-emx.uucp> greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) writes:
Did you miss reading my post? I didn't say the NeXT's discount was _bad_. I
said the sales program was. Since I didn't quote what I said, I'll paraphrase
the jist of it. Steve Jobs has started another of his dishonest programs
where he sells an under-equipped version of a machine at a low initial price
and then soaks the user for all subsequent purchases. He sells a Unix box
which doesn't even have space for the release software, much less enough to do
any work. Once the user figures out they need more, he sticks them with
high-priced expansions. Most users don't know that they can buy regular 8-bit
SIMMs instead of NeXT's $2995-per-8MB ones. Many don't know how to install a
hard drive, and will have to pay some NeXT-specific person (how should they
know that anyone could do it) to install it for them.
The basic NeXTstation is great for use on a network. If NeXT put a
larger drive on the low-end machine, it would cost more and then
people who network a dozen machines would have something to complain
about. It's not the ideal system for a single user system, but it's
such a great deal that it's hard to pass up.
Most users don't know that they can buy a NeXT. It's a Mac and IBM
world. I think Apple charges the similar prices for RAM and HD. How
about Commodore?
With 30,000 machines what kind of user groups can you expect? It's possible
that you _might_ know someone else who owns a NeXT, but it's a small chance.
I know three people. Think about it. What other machine are computer
literate people going to buy?
My mistake. Of course, how do you put it on an already-full 105MB drive? :)
You could delete the Improv demo. I'm not sure what all comes on the
105MB system. But in /NextDeveloper I get 24MB of example programs
with source. This might be part of the "OS", as misinformed people
like to call all 250MB of the NeXT software, that is only included on
the Extended release, but then again, if you really want it, I'll
e-mail it to you :-). The NeXT Tour is another program that can be
deleted.
BTW, how much does Improv cost now?
Not sure, somewhere b/w $495 and $695.
-Mikepeter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (04/09/91)
In article <?5Gwtik1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > The basic NeXTstation is great for use on a network. So the basic NeXTstation isn't so great standalone? > I know three people. Think about it. What other machine are computer > literate people going to buy? Well, I'm computer-literate. I bought an Amiga. It's useful standalone. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (04/09/91)
NeXT, in business? Not without orbital mind control lasers to reprogram purchasing officers. We can't even get VT320s instead of VT220s for our DEC droids (so they can run multiple sessions), because the requirements don't specify that. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.