kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (04/11/91)
[The Q came to me in email, but since it seems to be of interest to many...] >I seem to have been living in a cave for the past several years. Could you >give me some example of a CD-I application? Why would I want to buy a player? >The sorts of things that I read only discuss the technology involved, not >the application of the product of the technology <sigh>. If you were in a cave, you weren't alone, don't worry :-). This kind of thing has been vaguely touched on lately with personal computers (especially the Amiga), but the overall possibilities of widespread home consumer players, using CDROM storage capacities, may be something you have to experience firsthand to really get excited over. Good Interactive TV on any player will be neat! Ah heck, let me just give you some examples (some are real): Your player sits with the rest of your A/V equipment, hooked to TV and stereo. You place the disc in the player, and sit back on your couch with the remote control (a thumb-controlled joystick at the top, on some players). You hit the play button, and up comes the title screen and sounds of "Treasures of the Smithsonian". You're viewing a photographic quality view of a museum room with various objects... as you move the on-screen pointer around, an overhead floodlight seems to focus on different things. You flick around spotlighting display cases, sculptures, but decide to click on the portrait on the wall... And you move into a portrait hall of Presidents... you click on Lincoln and he springs into focus (note that there's a small navigation/map menu at the bottom of the screen in case you get "lost") reciting the Gettysburg Address. A little playing around with menus and you can get textual info on this man, but behind him is a flag so you click on it and the... Battle Hymn of the Republic is played as you segue into a Civil War section. There you explore the sights and sounds of various exhibits until you come across one of the famous photographers, and clicking on his camera takes you to the... Photographic section, where you get interested in movies and end up viewing Judy Garland's ruby red slippers and parts of the Wizard of Oz. Later, you might find your way back to the President's area where you hear Depression Era speeches and end up reviewing newspapers of the time. Well, it would take literally days to fully explore the Smithsonian. OR: You insert your Time-Life Photography disc, and in one section a famous photographer teaches you how to set your 35mm camera, which you do with the remote control and "snap" a picture... hey, no waiting! The resulting "photograph" is displayed so that you can be instantly critiqued on your subject placement and focus/light settings. Pretty soon you're a pro :-). OR: You insert a Tour of Washington, DC, and from a photographic view of your approach from the air you click on and tour Grant's Tomb and the Washington Monument... or check out a map of the city's public transit. Now you're getting hungry and that prompts you to check out the available five-star restaurants, with interior views and sounds, while you scroll through their food menus overlaid on one side. OR: You decide to play some armchair golf, so you put in your golf disc and choose the Augusta National course. Before starting play, you view a documentary about it, with top quality photographic views of the course from the ground and air, layouts of the holes, all while an inset video is showing the 1986 comeback victory of Jack Nicklaus. The background music and narration is CD quality. Then you play some realistic golf! OR: Your kids come home, so you let them use their Sesame Street disc... almost anything they click on takes them to another room where their favorites such as Big Bird entertain and teach them. You're amazed at how much they're learning from sitting in front of an interactive player: their interests are always catered to instead of them having no control. Naturally, there are also coloring book discs; and even one which lets them script and control their own interactive storybook tales. OR: You need to repair your bathtub faucet, so you pick up your LCD-screen handheld player and take it back to the bathroom with your Home Repair disc and set it up where you can see it, but remove the tiny remote control and put it beside you. You click your way over to the bathroom part of the house, click on the picture of the faucet, and study the exploded view while a full-motion inset of Bob Villa explains how to make the repair. He probably also gives you some grief, but that's a danger of Interactive-TV ;-). Click on any piece of the faucet, and details about it specifically come up. OR: Your monthly National Geographic disc comes with the magazine (you'll still want both). There's a map of Africa, so you click on Egypt and take a tour of the Pyramids. A photo with the Nile in the background catches your eye, and later you end up at Victoria Falls deep in Africa, viewing the roaring waterfall. Later you hear/see native animals, learn about gold mining, etc. And there will be games, and photograph-quality flight simulators, and gardening discs; Berlitz has just signed up to do CD-I teach-yourself language courses; and I'm sure you can imagine other neat uses. But the main thing is always the nice video, the great sound, and the total interactivity and simplicity of navigation by often just clicking on objects of interest. Most importantly, you need know nothing about computers at all. Zip. Zero. A good disc takes enormous preparation, and lots of good quality digitized sound and images. A good disc is an adventure! A bad one makes you think you're at a computer, retrieving data. Oh well enuf for now. Sorry for the length of this, but I hope it's better than the NeXt-vs-Amiga bandwidth :). cheers - kev <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (04/11/91)
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and say that I don't think interactive TV will be the next revolutionary home device. People are used to being passive watchers/listeners. People usually don't interact with TV/CD Players. It may be a 'neat' thing, but I think I-TV players will collect dust in the majority of American homes. Kids may use it to play games, or education. The family may use it for a library, but most people will still prefer to watch normal TV. I think I-TV players will mostly be used for games and information retrieval. This is where CDTV steals the market. The Amiga has by far the best games on the market. This library can be ported easily. Game programmers in the past have written games for 512k 1 drive A500's. They usually crammed all the graphics they could onto 2 880 disks. Now imagine CDTV games made to run in 1meg using 600mbs of disk space! Sure CD-I has better specs, and is backed up by major Japanese companies. So what? The C64 stood up to the same kind of opposition, and won! Another major benefit is CDTV is OUT! It will have atleast a 6 month lead on CD-I (to be released in September, but I bet it will be delayed a few months). If Commodore advertises it well (Television, Radio, and large print media) it will get an installed base that will give it an advantage, like Nitendo had over Sega, TurboGraphics, Neo Geo, etc. Remember, the consumer doesn't base purchases on the spec sheet. I don't know whether CDTV will succeed or not, all I Know is I want one. -- /~\_______________________________________________________________________/~\ |n| rjc@albert.ai.mit.edu Amiga, the computer for the creative mind. |n| |~| .-. .-. |~| |_|________________________________| |_| |________________________________|_|
nkb@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Norman K Bucknor) (04/11/91)
At the price point indicated, I don't think CDTV is going to be that successful. Most consumer electronics products don't generally take off until they drop below the $500 mark (e.g. VCRs, CD players etc.) and CDTV could wind up having the same fate as the laserdisc player-a great technology that nobody bought because there were cheaper, albeit inferior, alternatives. Ditto CD-I unless they can make them cheap enough (which maybe the Japanese can). I would think most such products would likely end up in schools as a cheaper alternative to interactive laserdisc systems.
kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (04/12/91)
In <1991Apr11.143222.13728@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and say that I don't think > interactive TV will be the next revolutionary home device. Surprise: you're not alone in thinking that. This question has been pondered for over half a decade now, and reams of marketing surveys, interviews, books, and forecasts have been written about it. Hard to tell for sure; altho again, one _good_ experience sells one on I-TV. > People are used to being passive watchers/listeners. People usually > don't interact with TV/CD Players. It may be a 'neat' thing, but I > think I-TV players will collect dust in the majority of American homes. > Kids may use it to play games, or education. The family may use it for > a library, but most people will still prefer to watch normal TV. Perhaps. OTOH, there are now a great many people who grew up with TV as a familiar appliance, and also it should be noted that a growing percentage of home gameplayers are adults... I don't think that is because they are really into games; that's just all there is right now. Anyway, there are already a lot of people already used to some I-TV. > I think I-TV players will mostly be used for games and info retrieval. > This is where CDTV steals the market. The Amiga has by far the best > games on the market. This library can be ported easily. I think the problem is that Amigans look at I-TV from a viewpoint of porting Amiga stuff, and that is too simplistic. As for games, there are plenty of _really_ good, cheap game machines out there now. To take advantage of the extra space on CDROM would take a lot of extra authoring. Personally, I think that home users will find most interest in travel discs. Games are common, videotapes are common, but interactive touring is new. In any case, all this is moot until some time has passed. > Sure CD-I has better specs, and is backed up by major Japanese companies. > So what? The C64 stood up to the same kind of opposition, and won! [enter rare sarcastic mode] Oh great. An argument for pushing mediocrity. "Sure, the Amiga has better specs than the IBMs, but so what? The PC won!" I can accept most other arguments to back any system, but to actually promote less capable hardware for the masses because of lame brandname loyalty, is not what I expected, especially _here_ of all places. It's a little disappointing. And scary. sadly - kev <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (04/12/91)
In article <1991Apr11.143222.13728@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > > I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and say that I don't think >interactive TV will be the next revolutionary home device. People are >used to being passive watchers/listeners. People usually don't interact >with TV/CD Players. Hmm, but the advertising industry complains heavily about people doing too much zipping, i.e. changing channels immediately when ads come up. So people indeed are heavily using their remote controls! And there's nothing else they'll have to do with a CDTV or CD-I. The applications Kevin cited (e.g. walking through a museum) sure must consider this issue: They have to provide a default path through such an application when the user does nothing, so that he just can watch passively if he doesn't have special interest in certain details. This is no complicated issue, many games today already show such a behaviour. When the user doesn't act after a certain timeout, the prog falls into a demo mode. The same timeout mechanism should be built-in into CDTV applications. (Though the user should be able to cut in at any moment, when he recognizes something interesting.) And considering the huge capacity of a CD-ROM, those demo modes could show much more than in the past, where obviously memory considerations tightened some of the demos to only minimal fractions of a game. -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/12/91)
In article <1991Apr12.022130.3180@ncsu.edu> kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) writes: >In <1991Apr11.143222.13728@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> > rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > >> Sure CD-I has better specs, and is backed up by major Japanese companies. >> So what? The C64 stood up to the same kind of opposition, and won! > >[enter rare sarcastic mode] Oh great. An argument for pushing mediocrity. >"Sure, the Amiga has better specs than the IBMs, but so what? The PC won!" > >I can accept most other arguments to back any system, but to actually >promote less capable hardware for the masses because of lame brandname >loyalty, is not what I expected, especially _here_ of all places. > >It's a little disappointing. And scary. sadly - kev <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu> If CD-I has better specs and the software is also much better, and the price is on the same level as CDTV, then so be it, it will win and the world will be happier. But I'm not confident of that. There is NO way that their price-point can be close to Commodore's. The Amiga 500, which is what CDTV is, is 4 year old technology. Those chips in the A500 have been made for over 6 years. And Commodore makes them themselves. I don't know what Commodore's "COST" is on the A500, but I know that 3 1/2 years ago I bought the A500 with A1080 for the price that the A500 and A1084S sell at today, no change whatsoever, $750. Over these 3 1/2 years you can be sure Commodore's cost has dropped. I would be surprised if they couldn't make money selling it at $350 for both. Also, if the CD software for CD-I is being done so intricately, those CDs are going to cost a heck of a lot of money. Now, we have our own priorities of quality and price, but if you are selling to the American mass-market, by now I think we've all discovered that THINKING has very little to do with the decision to buy. 8) It is glitz and price. -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (04/12/91)
In article <1991Apr12.022130.3180@ncsu.edu> kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) writes: >In <1991Apr11.143222.13728@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> > rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >I can accept most other arguments to back any system, but to actually >promote less capable hardware for the masses because of lame brandname >loyalty, is not what I expected, especially _here_ of all places. > >It's a little disappointing. And scary. sadly - kev <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu> The problem is, I don't think CD-I's hardware is all that great. What happens when the market gets littered with this CD-I "standard"? It will be hard for any other machine to get on the market. What about when CD drives improve in a few years and get better transfer rates? HDTV? What about cheap MPEG chips and 24bit color vs RLE compression? What about having a 68040 as the standard processor onboard? You see, CD-I doesn't make any significant improvements in graphics rendering, or CD-ROM technology. Instead, it's been kludged on top of the old hardware except for a few VLSI chips. It doesn't even have a blitter as standard. I bet CD-I games will fall very short of Amiga games. All the faults CD-I has, CDTV also has. The reason I'd rather have a less capable machine promoted ahead of a mediocre machine because what's good for Commodore (profit) is good for the Amiga. If those big Japanese companies would have developed a better CD-ROM drive perhaps transfer rates would have been fast enough for HDTV when it arrives. -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | // The opinions expressed here do not in any way | | uunet!tnc!m0023 | \X/ reflect the views of my self. | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
kudla@rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) (04/12/91)
In article <1991Apr12.022130.3180@ncsu.edu> kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) writes: > Sure CD-I has better specs, and is backed up by major Japanese companies. > So what? The C64 stood up to the same kind of opposition, and won! [enter rare sarcastic mode] Oh great. An argument for pushing mediocrity. "Sure, the Amiga has better specs than the IBMs, but so what? The PC won!" That wasn't the analogy he was making. The C64's competition was first the PC-jr and Apple, which I feel were both about its equivalent (well, maybe the jr. was slightly superior) in terms of pure hardware specs. They were also shloads more expensive, like 2 or 3 times as much. But I think the competition he was talking about were the Japanese "MSX" machines, made by a whole bunch of different manufacturers (I only ever had contact with the Yamaha one but I know about a dozen other companies were involved) but which actually had mediocre specs compared to the c64 - 256x192x16 colors, its processor was a stock Z-80, the sound (except for the Yamaha one which had a little FM synth inside it) was abysmal, it just wasn't terribly exciting and it didn't catch on. And there was *plenty* of software for them upon their introduction. On the other hand, CD-I has at least as impressive hardware specs as CDTV, and will cost about the same. Commodore has a chance to win this one if they put some serious effort and money into marketing this summer, but I also think they should probably cut the list price before Christmas time so they'll have a strong user base, product recognition *and* a price advantage. Hey, look at me! I've turned into a regular armchair market researcher.... Robert Jude Kudla <kudla@rpi.edu> No more bars! No more cages! Just rollerskating, disco music, and the occasional light show....
ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (04/12/91)
[ Since this group is equivalent to /flames, I'm taking a bit of liberty here... ] In article <1991Apr11.163702.13171@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> nkb@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Norman K Bucknor) writes: >At the price point indicated, I don't think CDTV is going to be that >successful. Most consumer electronics products don't generally take off until >they drop below the $500 mark (e.g. VCRs, CD players etc.) and CDTV could >wind up having the same fate as the laserdisc player-a great technology that >nobody bought because there were cheaper, albeit inferior, alternatives. >Ditto CD-I unless they can make them cheap enough (which maybe the Japanese >can). I would think most such products would likely end up in >schools as a cheaper alternative to interactive laserdisc systems. Here's what I think: Commodore releases CDTV now at an artificially high price, to recoup development costs quickly by soaking the first few, pioneering buyers. Then when CD-I appears, Commodore lowers CDTV's price to $500, like they've already promised, while CD-I is either delayed by additional cost-cutting measures or else dies on the shelves next to CDTV because of fewer titles and far higher price. In other words, it's just business. -- First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / ckp@grebyn.com \\ / / Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/
kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (04/13/91)
In <1107@cbmger.UUCP> peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) writes: In article <1991Apr11.143222.13728@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >> I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and say that I don't think >>interactive TV will be the next revolutionary home device. People are >>used to being passive watchers/listeners. People usually don't interact >>with TV/CD Players. > >Hmm, but the advertising industry complains heavily about people doing >too much zipping, i.e. changing channels immediately when ads come up. >So people indeed are heavily using their remote controls! And there's >nothing else they'll have to do with a CDTV or CD-I. > >The applications Kevin cited (e.g. walking through a museum) sure must >consider this issue: They have to provide a default path through such >an application when the user does nothing, so that he just can watch >passively if he doesn't have special interest in certain details. All very well said! (on both sides!) This is excellent discussion about some of the issues to be considered on the future of Interactive TV. Gawd, I love it when people actually THINK about a topic without resorting to kneejerk brandname-oriented responses. (Hard for me to do at times, too!) Much admiration - kev <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>
vsolanoy@ozonebbs.UUCP (Victor Solanoy) (04/14/91)
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > > I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and say that I don't think > interactive TV will be the next revolutionary home device. People are > used to being passive watchers/listeners. People usually don't interact > with TV/CD Players. It may be a 'neat' thing, but I think I-TV players > will collect dust in the majority of American homes. Kids may use it > to play games, or education. The family may use it for a library, but > most people will still prefer to watch normal TV. I think I-TV players > will mostly be used for games and information retrieval. This is where > CDTV steals the market. The Amiga has by far the best games on the market. > This library can be ported easily. Game programmers in the past have > written games for 512k 1 drive A500's. They usually crammed all the > graphics they could onto 2 880 disks. Now imagine CDTV games made to run > in 1meg using 600mbs of disk space! > > Sure CD-I has better specs, and is backed up by major Japanese companies. > So what? The C64 stood up to the same kind of opposition, and won! > Another major benefit is CDTV is OUT! It will have atleast a 6 month lead > on CD-I (to be released in September, but I bet it will be delayed a few > months). If Commodore advertises it well (Television, Radio, and large > print media) it will get an installed base that will give it an > advantage, like Nitendo had over Sega, TurboGraphics, Neo Geo, etc. > Remember, the consumer doesn't base purchases on the spec sheet. > I don't know whether CDTV will succeed or not, all I Know is I want > one. > I'll have to dispute that.... the real market in this interactive TV thing is in education. Recently in San Jose (where I live) there was a conference on multi-media technology and this CD ROM thing was the hot issue... it is basically the wave of the future (for now that is). Even more recently was an educational conference of sorts on the use of interactive systems (computer/laser disc based) in education. The basic idea behind that is kids have FUN at it... just as kids today adapt to computers faster than adults... it is viewed as a appliance rather than a tool to children. CDTV is just such an appliance... it's educational (it could be if marketed correctly). At the price CDTV is set at, it's not going to have all too much competition since there very few (if any at all) competitors that have a CD-ROM and computer built into one machine. Of coarse there are the add ons, but it may still be cheaper than an educational purchase of a color Mac with a CD ROM or an IBM PC/XT/AT type machine equipped with all the necessary hardware to handle graphics and sound. Victor
jejones@mcrware.UUCP (James Jones) (04/14/91)
In article <1991Apr11.143222.13728@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and say that I don't think >interactive TV will be the next revolutionary home device. People are >used to being passive watchers/listeners. I'm not sure how to reconcile that with the success of video games, though OTOH I don't know how many video game units are out there. > Sure CD-I has better specs, and is backed up by major Japanese companies. >So what? The C64 stood up to the same kind of opposition, and won! Won in what sense? Seen any articles on C64 programs in many computer mags lately? The C64 has perhaps survived as a niche item with a small group of dedicated users, but I can't persuade myself that that is "winning." James Jones
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (04/15/91)
In article <5967@mcrware.UUCP> jejones@mcrware.UUCP (James Jones) writes: >In article <1991Apr11.143222.13728@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >> I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and say that I don't think >>interactive TV will be the next revolutionary home device. People are >>used to being passive watchers/listeners. > >I'm not sure how to reconcile that with the success of video games, though >OTOH I don't know how many video game units are out there. > >> Sure CD-I has better specs, and is backed up by major Japanese companies. >>So what? The C64 stood up to the same kind of opposition, and won! > >Won in what sense? Seen any articles on C64 programs in many computer >mags lately? The C64 has perhaps survived as a niche item with a small ^^^^^ >group of dedicated users, but I can't persuade myself that that is >"winning." > > James Jones It won in the sense of selling over 10 million units. Niche item? Hardly. It seems you don't know much about the C64 market. Major computer magazines are not a gauge of success. They provide coverage based on their advertisers. The C64 was never advertised very much, however, it sold very well, and probably still sells well. I'm not saying it's a superior computer. What I'm suggesting is that technical superiority doesn't determine whether a product is a success. IBM proved that. On the other side of the spectrum, Beta video proved it also. Being good at graphics and games may be the catalyst that puts CDTV in the lead. CD-I and CDTV may be priced the same, but CDTV will have more software in the beginning, and since CD-I doesn't have a blitter or sprites, it won't be able to move many objects around the screen like the Amiga/CDTV can. (Also consider the extra computation it takes to render into DYUV space rather than vanilla bitplanes.) And it worse comes to worse, you can always plug DCTV into CDTV. DCTV provides DYUV color the same as CD-I. -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | // The opinions expressed here do not in any way | | uunet!tnc!m0023 | \X/ reflect the views of my self. | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/15/91)
In article <5967@mcrware.UUCP> jejones@mcrware.UUCP (James Jones) writes: >In article <1991Apr11.143222.13728@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > >> Sure CD-I has better specs, and is backed up by major Japanese companies. >>So what? The C64 stood up to the same kind of opposition, and won! > >Won in what sense? Seen any articles on C64 programs in many computer >mags lately? The C64 has perhaps survived as a niche item with a small >group of dedicated users, but I can't persuade myself that that is >"winning." > You didn't read that right. He said that C64 WON, passed tense. Which is true. The C=64 is the largest selling single model of computer ever, over 15 million sold. > James Jones -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
kuch@reed.edu (04/15/91)
In regard to the slavering discussion that has started, in response to the line that "The C64 stood up to superior systems backed by major Japanese companies..." etc. etc. I think the meaning that was intended is from the past, not the present. Of course the 64 is no big deal today...8 bit micros are effectively DEAD! Find a valid surviving computer that is in the C64's market now? The 8 bit micro field is not current! Hanging on by its fingernails as it bleeds to death, maybe... I think the "standing up to Japanese backed systems" refers to the 1983/84 doomsayers talking of MSX. MSX was an operating system developed at Microsoft to be used on a set of hardware and software compatible, standardized machines coming out of various japanese manufacturers. The MSX operating system was designed to run on a generic, common hardware nucleus consisting of: An 8-bit Z-80 microprocessor A TMS-9918 A graphics processor (as in the TI-99/4A or Colecovision) A General Instruments 8-octave, 3-channel sound chip (8514 I think?) (once again, straight out of the TI or Colecovision) The operating system, in its final version, was, I believe to fill 32K of ROM. The RAM built into the machines was variable, from some manufacturers claiming that they would have 8K, to others talking of 64K or 128K. Where is MSX now? Try Davey Jones' locker. By the time MSX was ready to move on the U.S. market, there really wasn't one. The bottom partially fell out on the low end, and there was almost a saturation effect due to the C64 hitting a street price of $200. Sure, there were all kinds of noble plans to put the above "hardware nucleus" of the MSX machines on a single VLSI chip and drive the cost under $100, but that would have taken time and money to develop that none of these companies deemed worthwhile in the end. Meanwhile the 64 lived on into 86 and 87. The "stood up to systems backed by major Japanese companies" thread seems to have grown out of a memory of MSX. Not, as the one poster seemed to believe, an attempt to justify the C64 as a current "wonder product". (I personally would question the "superior" part in the original posting. The TMS-9918 was no great shakes compared to the MOS 6567 Video Interface II chip in the 64, as it had no more colors, lower resolution, and fewer available sprites per scan line. The General Instruments sound chip....well, in addition to the Colecovision and the TI, it floated in adequacy/mediocrity until it eventually wound up in the original Atari ST systems :-) Flame away, Jerry
kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (04/15/91)
> What I'm suggesting is that technical superiority doesn't determine > whether a product is a success. IBM proved that. On the other side > of the spectrum, Beta video proved it also. Political commentary: I don't think anyone disagrees with that. Still, a pity when it happens. Am I the only one who bought Beta, Saab front-wheel drive, and Amiga years back? Okay, okay, so the front-wheel drive _did_ finally make it big <g>. The Amiga kinda has, too... but both took too many years. > Being good at graphics and games may be the catalyst that puts CDTV > in the lead. CD-I and CDTV may be priced the same, but CDTV will have > more software in the beginning, Announced title (available and pending) counts seem very similar for both. If I understand you tho, you're guessing that many Amiga games will be quickly copied onto discs for CDTV. Hadn't heard that yet, but it does belatedly remind me that Sony and Nintendo have signed a deal on cdrom game R&D. > DCTV provides DYUV color the same as CD-I. That's the first I'd heard that about DCTV. Please tell us more details! In fact, I haven't yet seen a decent article up here about DCTV's guts. Got a file or two you can post over in .graphics or .hardware? (There are some questions from others there too). thx - Kevin <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu> feeling better after fighting a cold ;-)
kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (04/15/91)
vsolanoy@ozonebbs.UUCP (Victor Solanoy) writes: >> CDTV players will mostly be used for games and information retrieval. > > I'll have to dispute that.... the real market in this interactive TV thing > is in education. Bingo! Meaning I agree, at least as a market where CDTV could win big; and more importantly from my viewpoint, actually be an okay I-TV system. > CDTV is just such an appliance... it's educational (it could be if marketed > correctly). Apparently (I assume/hope I'm giving away no secrets) some at CBM do realize the educational possibilities. I am given to understand that they're looking for universities who wish to develop CDTV discs. There is, or will be, a deal where if a university buys a CDTV development system, their first disc will be mastered for free if CBM gets demonstration rights. More than fair! > At the price CDTV is set at, it's not going to have all too much competition > since there very few (if any at all) competitors that have a CD-ROM and > computer built into one machine. No, not at first. But they'll need to move quickly. CDROM-equipped computers are getting cheaper and more numerous almost by the week. Cheap writeable CDROM technology is not terribly far off now, which may change everything. Another CDTV advantage is in authoring tools; this'll change in the next year. And other educational giants (or wannabes) such as Tandy, may get into the CDROM player market before the end of the year. I give it 50-50 odds. Apple already said they will. I personally think Commodore would've won bigger with an inexpensive CDROM-equipped Amiga. By opening the player Pandora's Box, they have (among other things) lit a shorter fuse under their educational window. regards - kevin <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/15/91)
In article <1991Apr15.111414.10624@ncsu.edu> kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) writes: > >Announced title (available and pending) counts seem very similar for both. >If I understand you tho, you're guessing that many Amiga games will be quickly >copied onto discs for CDTV. Hadn't heard that yet, but it does belatedly >remind me that Sony and Nintendo have signed a deal on cdrom game R&D. > Psygnosis, Sierra On-Line, and one other game company I can't remember are porting to CDTV. They have a lot of hit game titles from both action and thinking sides of the spectrum. >> DCTV provides DYUV color the same as CD-I. > >That's the first I'd heard that about DCTV. Please tell us more details! >In fact, I haven't yet seen a decent article up here about DCTV's guts. >Got a file or two you can post over in .graphics or .hardware? (There >are some questions from others there too). > Ohh. I think I understand. At one point I was saying that DCTV provided TV quality video and you thought I was crazy. You probably assumed I was typing CDTV. No, no! DCTV, by Digital Creations, plugs into the Amiga RGB port and gives a composite output, perfect for output into a VCR. It gives the full color spectrum of NTSC and almost equal resolution. I saw Back to the Future III playing (5 minutes) off of a hard drive and through DCTV and the image quality was indistinguishable from my TV. Now, I realize you can't play back full screen real time off of the CD, but with compression you can. Also, since this already uses some interesting techniques the image is only about 100K/frame, so you can do quarter screen as is with no special tricks. >thx - Kevin <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu> feeling better after fighting a cold ;-) -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
fhwri%CONNCOLL.BITNET@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu (04/16/91)
> > At the price point indicated, I don't think CDTV is going to be that > successful. Most consumer electronics products don't generally take off until > they drop below the $500 mark (e.g. VCRs, CD players etc.) and CDTV could > wind up having the same fate as the laserdisc player-a great technology that > nobody bought because there were cheaper, albeit inferior, alternatives. > Ditto CD-I unless they can make them cheap enough (which maybe the Japanese > can). I would think most such products would likely end up in > schools as a cheaper alternative to interactive laserdisc systems. > Here at Connecticut College in New London, an Arts & Technology symposium was held last weekend. The local Commodore dealer, One Byte of Quaker Hill, CT was given both the "Struggles for Justice" videodisk/AmigaVision package and a CDTV. Teachers liked the videodisk package a LOT better than the CDTV; the CDTV controller (which strongly resembles a Nintendo controller, with the same directional keys and an A and B button) was criticized by one teacher as being inferior to a joystick or mouse. Other people, _notably students_ at the school, were VERY intrigued by the fact that it would play CD+G disks (Lou Reed's "New York" was playing). It seems that record stores would make a most effective showplace for CDTV, and I urge CBM Marketing to investigate this technique for building interest in CDTV in the marketplace. CDTV is something different; a completely unique device, and it'll either become something that lots of people just have to have (like a VCR, Walkman, or microwave oven) (or, hey...a Commodore 64) or it will become another Plus 4 for Commodore. I THINK that it will take off, especially when the street price drops to about $600. More than one person observing it said that if they were buying a CD player, they'd definitely think about CDTV instead. --Rick Wrigley fhwri@conncoll.bitnet I *ALSO* want a game that looks like SHADOW OF THE BEAST and plays like LEISURE SIUT LARRY...
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/16/91)
In article <m0jSNab-0003OuC@reed.edu> kuch@reed.bitnet (Jerry Kuch) writes: > >I think the meaning that was intended is from the past, not the present. Of >course the 64 is no big deal today...8 bit micros are effectively DEAD! Find >a valid surviving computer that is in the C64's market now? The 8 bit micro >field is not current! Hanging on by its fingernails as it bleeds to death, >maybe... > In the US it may be dead, but the C=64 sold over 700,000 machines last year, somehow, somewhere. Dead? Nah. Old? Definitely. -- Ethan Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb A: None. It's a hardware problem.
kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (04/16/91)
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: >>> DCTV provides DYUV color the same as CD-I. >> >>That's the first I'd heard that about DCTV. Please tell us more details! >>In fact, I haven't yet seen a decent article up here about DCTV's guts. >>Got a file or two you can post over in .graphics or .hardware? (There >>are some questions from others there too). >> > Ohh. I think I understand. At one point I was saying that >DCTV provided TV quality video and you thought I was crazy. You >probably assumed I was typing CDTV. No, no! > DCTV, by Digital Creations, plugs into the Amiga RGB port No sir, I knew what you meant :-). I'd just never read that DCTV used DYUV. Ahh, maybe you mean it can read/write DYUV files? That makes perfect sense. But no, my question had nothing to do with CDTV/CD-I. It was curiousity about DCTV, about which I don't think I've seen a good tech report up yet. thx again - kev <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (04/16/91)
In article <1991Apr16.003917.1628@ncsu.edu> kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) writes: >es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: >>>> DCTV provides DYUV color the same as CD-I. >>> >>>That's the first I'd heard that about DCTV. Please tell us more details! >>>In fact, I haven't yet seen a decent article up here about DCTV's guts. >>>Got a file or two you can post over in .graphics or .hardware? (There >>>are some questions from others there too). >>> >> Ohh. I think I understand. At one point I was saying that >>DCTV provided TV quality video and you thought I was crazy. You >>probably assumed I was typing CDTV. No, no! >> DCTV, by Digital Creations, plugs into the Amiga RGB port > >No sir, I knew what you meant :-). I'd just never read that DCTV used DYUV. >Ahh, maybe you mean it can read/write DYUV files? That makes perfect sense. >But no, my question had nothing to do with CDTV/CD-I. It was curiousity >about DCTV, about which I don't think I've seen a good tech report up yet. > thx again - kev <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu> DCTV encodes a 3 or 4 bitplane hires image into a composite NTSC 'television' quality image contain ~4million colors. DCTV usually demos their unit by playing back a movie clip at 30fps from the harddrive. DCTV uses a proprietary file format, but I've heard them mention their box works on DYUV space. Usually DCTV IFF files compress down to ~30k which is suitable for animation especially if frame to frame delta's are applied. CDTV+DCTV would not only rival CD-I video, it would beat it. With this combination you'd have the Amiga's sprites and blitter at your disposal which is much better than the simple dual-playfield/overlay CD-I has. DCTV will work with CDTV, however since Commodore hasn't licensed it for CDTV as default, it won't really be used much. One thing I don't understand is why CD-I chose RLE compression for their images. RLE isn't a very good compression technique. It works best on line art, not raw digitized picturres. Quad Trees, Huffman encoding, or LZ/Yabba/Whap all provide better compression. -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | // The opinions expressed here do not in any way | | uunet!tnc!m0023 | \X/ reflect the views of my self. | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (04/16/91)
In article <m0jSNab-0003OuC@reed.edu> kuch@reed.bitnet (Jerry Kuch) writes: > >I think the meaning that was intended is from the past, not the present. Of >course the 64 is no big deal today...8 bit micros are effectively DEAD! Find ^^^^ >a valid surviving computer that is in the C64's market now? The 8 bit micro >field is not current! Hanging on by its fingernails as it bleeds to death, >maybe... Oh boy, didn't you hear the recent sales figures of the C 64? They still count by the 100,000's! If you call this a "dead" market, then you sure must have BIG spare money :-). Only your other statement is correct that no other computer in this market has survived. -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
kudla@rpi.edu (Robert J. Kudla) (04/16/91)
In article <5967@mcrware.UUCP> jejones@mcrware.UUCP (James Jones) writes:
Won in what sense? Seen any articles on C64 programs in many computer
mags lately? The C64 has perhaps survived as a niche item with a small
group of dedicated users, but I can't persuade myself that that is
"winning."
He said "won", not "winning". The 8-bit "battle" is long since
over..... only the Nintendo and XT clones remain and they're starting
to fade. As will the 16-bit systems (like CD-I and CDTV) eventually.
Robert Jude Kudla <kudla@rpi.edu>
No more bars! No more cages! Just rollerskating, disco music, and
the occasional light show....davidm@uunet.UU.NET (David S. Masterson) (04/17/91)
>>>>> On 15 Apr 91 14:04:16 GMT, kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) >>>>> said: Kevin> vsolanoy@ozonebbs.UUCP (Victor Solanoy) writes: Victor> I'll have to dispute that.... the real market in this interactive TV Victor> thing is in education. Kevin> Bingo! Meaning I agree, at least as a market where CDTV could win big; Kevin> and more importantly from my viewpoint, actually be an okay I-TV system. Wouldn't CDTV be even more attractive to the education market if it could learn from its environment and adjust itself to the quirks of its user over time? (As a for instance, as a history quiz system that keeps track of how the particular user does over time.) This, though, requires some amount of floppy/hard disk space for memory. I know CDTV allows such things to be hooked in, but are software developers going to make use of them to provide a more personalized environment for the customer? -- ==================================================================== David Masterson Consilium, Inc. (415) 691-6311 640 Clyde Ct. uunet!cimshop!davidm Mtn. View, CA 94043 ==================================================================== "If someone thinks they know what I said, then I didn't say it!"
kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (04/17/91)
cimshop!davidm@uunet.UU.NET (David S. Masterson) writes: > Wouldn't CDTV be even more attractive to the education market if it could > learn from its environment and adjust itself to the quirks of its user over > time? (As a for instance, as a history quiz system that keeps track of how > the particular user does over time.) This, though, requires some amount of > floppy/hard disk space for memory. I know CDTV allows such things to be > hooked in, but are software developers going to make use of them to provide > a more personalized environment for the customer? Sounds like a good idea; we'll have to wait and see if someone does this. And as you suggested, a floppy disk is a good idea for storing the info, as a personal RAM card for each student probably would be cost prohibitive. I'd probably also suggest a hardwired joystick, to save on batteries and to keep remotes from "disappearing" ;-). No, actually, a keyboard would be even better, as then more than just multiple choice tests could be given. I like your thinking. best regards - kev <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu> PS: I do mildly cringe at the idea of tests being given from an I-TV device. Or even the usual coursework. First off, that's boring stuff <g>. Secondly, advanced educators got burned on the concept of using interactive videodiscs in years past, and reports say many are still wary. However, as an _adjunct_ to books, films, and so on, I can see I-TV as being a very good way to coax students into delving more deeply into say, history and geography. My advice to CBM? <serious, but tongue in cheek at first>... Give Nolan the heave-ho and use his salary to _buy_ favor with a California or Texas schoolbook firm (if some other CD company hasn't already). _Give_ them as many development systems as they wish, and enormous support. NO amount is too much, because the _return_ on having discs included with almost every textbook (plus the needed players in schools and often at home) would be HUGE. Alas, I fear tho that this relies too much on future returns, and US businesses would rather pay their execs well and quickly instead. <sigh>
ltf@ncmicro.lonestar.org (Lance Franklin) (04/17/91)
In article <CIMSHOP!DAVIDM.91Apr16113329@uunet.UU.NET> cimshop!davidm@uunet.UU.NET (David S. Masterson) writes: }Wouldn't CDTV be even more attractive to the education market if it could }learn from its environment and adjust itself to the quirks of its user over }time? (As a for instance, as a history quiz system that keeps track of how }the particular user does over time.) This, though, requires some amount of }floppy/hard disk space for memory. I know CDTV allows such things to be }hooked in, but are software developers going to make use of them to provide a }more personalized environment for the customer? This is simple. Imagine a classroom package with multiple CDTV's paired with a 3.5" disk drive and a master console, an A3000 with a CD drive. Imagine them all networked with a simple RS232 network. Now, a student sits at the system at the beginning of class and "logs on" to the CDTV. The master system downloads his current status to the system and begins his lesson. At the end of the class, the teacher tells his master system to "log off" all the students and read their current status. Now, say the student has a question during the class. The teacher (who has an identical CD in his master system) could have the master system query the students CDTV as to it's current positioning and replay the sequence leading to the students question. In addition, the master system could instruct any students CDTV to continuously update the master system, allowing the teacher to monitor the student's progress in real-time (kind of like the music labs where the teacher can monitor the students electric piano via a switching system). The teacher might even be able to pop up a window on the student's system while the program was in progress to give a suggestion if he notices the student was having problems. Now, what should be really interesting is when they start giving tests via the CDTV. I imagine they'll still have to put the answers on paper, since it would be difficult to hide the screens from other students, but having the capability to pose each question using the multi-media capabilities of CDTV has real possibilities. Lance -- Lance T. Franklin +----------------------------------------------+ (ltf@ncmicro.lonestar.org) | "You want I should bop you with this here | NC Microproducts, Inc. | Lollipop?!?" The Fat Fury | Richardson, Texas +----------------------------------------------+
tcr@tcr.UUCP (John B. Sobernheim) (04/19/91)
In article <1991Apr17.135214.12413@ncsu.edu>, kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) writes: > cimshop!davidm@uunet.UU.NET (David S. Masterson) writes: > > > Wouldn't CDTV be even more attractive to the education market if it could > > learn from its environment and adjust itself to the quirks of its user over > > time? (As a for instance, as a history quiz system that keeps track of how > > the particular user does over time.) This, though, requires some amount of > > floppy/hard disk space for memory. I know CDTV allows such things to be > > hooked in, but are software developers going to make use of them to provide > > a more personalized environment for the customer? > > Sounds like a good idea; we'll have to wait and see if someone does this. > And as you suggested, a floppy disk is a good idea for storing the info, > as a personal RAM card for each student probably would be cost prohibitive. > I'd probably also suggest a hardwired joystick, to save on batteries and > to keep remotes from "disappearing" ;-). No, actually, a keyboard would be > even better, as then more than just multiple choice tests could be given. It looks to me like CDTV does have some built-in battery backed RAM that developers can write to and read from. What I don't know is if this is a _legal_, Commodore supported thing or just a _feature_. (Actually, I'm not even sure if it's battery backed up,... I haven't tried the below test after pulling the plug on the unit). The disk "Classic Board Games" allows you to change the language in which its prompts appear and the digitized voice uses. I can change the language to Japanese, Spanish, etc., turn off CDTV, wait a few minutes, boot it back up, and walla, it's still Japanese, or Spanish. This without a Personal Memory Card or Disk Drive attached, Ie. a stock CDTV. --- John Sobernheim tcr@tcr.UUCP | ...boulder!tcr!{tcr!root!news} The Computer Room CIS 76625,1210 | 76625.1210@compuserve.com Denver, Colorado "But Moma, that's where the fun is!" (Manfred Man, BS)
kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (04/20/91)
tcr@tcr.UUCP (John B. Sobernheim) writes: >In article <1991Apr17.135214.12413@ncsu.edu>, kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) writes: >> cimshop!davidm@uunet.UU.NET (David S. Masterson) writes: >> >> > Wouldn't CDTV be even more attractive to the education market if it could >> > learn from its environment and adjust itself to the quirks of its user over >> > time? (As a for instance, as a history quiz system that keeps track of how >> > the particular user does over time.) This, though, requires some amount of >> > floppy/hard disk space for memory. >> Sounds like a good idea; we'll have to wait and see if someone does this. >> And as you suggested, a floppy disk is a good idea for storing the info, >> as a personal RAM card for each student probably would be cost prohibitive. > >It looks to me like CDTV does have some built-in battery backed RAM that >developers can write to and read from. What I don't know is if this is >a _legal_, Commodore supported thing or just a _feature_. (Actually, I'm >not even sure if it's battery backed up,... I haven't tried the below test >after pulling the plug on the unit). Yes, according to published specs (could have changed), CD-I has 8K, and CDTV has 2K, of nonvolatile RAM. Storing preferences such as language there seems an ideal use. Doesn't sound enough for storing student quirks, tho <g>. For that, you'd use external storage in the form of a disk, or the personal RAM cards (up to 64K each, I believe). - kev <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>