sjk@ut-emx.uucp (bob) (02/17/91)
So, can anyone start an intelligent debate comparing 3000UX (200MB drive and 8+MB RAM) vs. bottom line Sparcstation? Forgive me if this was done before, but I haven't seen it, yet. Thanks, Scot sjk@emx.utexas.edu Yow, am I President yet?! - Zippy
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (02/17/91)
In article <44277@ut-emx.uucp> sjk@ut-emx.uucp (bob) writes: > > >So, can anyone start an intelligent debate comparing 3000UX (200MB >drive and 8+MB RAM) vs. bottom line Sparcstation? Forgive me if >this was done before, but I haven't seen it, yet. One main difference is that the low end Sparcs have no HD and are unexpandable. They are meant to be added directly onto another network. The A3000UX is much more flexible in those areas. Of course, if you are just going to add an NFS connection onto your machine and don't need any disk drive locally, the priorities change a bit. >Thanks, >Scot >sjk@emx.utexas.edu > >Yow, am I President yet?! - Zippy -- Ethan Q: What's the definition of a Quayle? A: Two right wings and no backbone.
sjk@ut-emx.uucp (Phil Alvin) (02/17/91)
Ethan Solomita writes: > > One main difference is that the low end Sparcs have no HD > and are unexpandable. They are meant to be added directly onto > another network. True, but I believe they all contain a SCSI port allowing for the addition of any SCSI drive. And with something like a University License, this disc can be filled with Sun software, making it a standalone. Thus, I believe a useful comparison would be a 3000UX to this type of Sparc configuration. scot sjk@emx.utexas.edu
judge@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us (Rory Toma) (02/19/91)
> License, this disc can be filled with Sun software, making it a > standalone. Thus, I believe a useful comparison would be a 3000UX > to this type of Sparc configuration. > > scot > sjk@emx.utexas.edu True, you can get multi-user licenses from Sun, but they still cost money. Why are we comparing 3000's and Sparcstations anyway? It's like comparing a Celica Turbo to a Corvette ZR-1. Sure the ZR-1 is faster, but for the money, the Celica is darn nice. How much is a fully configured Sparc? About $14,000? Obviously, the 3000 is not a competitor tothe Sparc, nor is the Sparc a competitor to the 3000. rory "The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once." -Buckaroo Banzai
sdowdy@triton.unm.edu (Stephen Dowdy) (02/19/91)
In article <44281@ut-emx.uucp> sjk@ut-emx.uucp (Phil Alvin) writes: }Ethan Solomita writes: }> }> One main difference is that the low end Sparcs have no HD }> and are unexpandable. They are meant to be added directly onto }> another network. }True, but I believe they all contain a SCSI port allowing for the }addition of any SCSI drive. And with something like a University }License, this disc can be filled with Sun software, making it a }standalone. Thus, I believe a useful comparison would be a 3000UX }to this type of Sparc configuration. } }scot }sjk@emx.utexas.edu Also, many 3rd party manufacturers have developed many interesting SCSI devices, other than just disk and tape. Serial/Parallel cards, etc, and i think you might see other things as well (scanners, video stuff). After all it *is* a bus. a low end A3000UX with a 1950 or so color monitor (if the X server code is done in color) is in my opinion about equivalent to a Megapel mono display (you can have your opinion). Thus, an SLC with an equivalent SCSI HD would be a good comparison to an 8MB A3000UX system. An SLC lists at $4995 and a 200MB drive can be had for ~$1000. At this price, an "equivalent" A3000UX is not terribly price competitive (i recall something like $5500 for this config, correct me if i'm wrong...). I would have liked to see the A3000UX priced more competitively (but then i'd feel bad about having picked up my A3000 for so much money :-) ). One thing that weighs in the Amiga's advantage, is again, the end-user servicing and low-cost maintenance. It is much cheaper to maintain/upgrade a "PC" (i hate that term, but the Amiga is a "Personal Computer") than a big name "workstation" both in Hardware and Software costs. However, Commodore really does face a tough challenge with getting their dealerships to support unix. Unix is not something that you can bluff your way through in support, and as i understand, there are quite a number of "incompetent" dealerships. (from the complaining i've heard, and my own personal experience) I will say, in terms of performance, i was slightly dismayed, when i got a demo Sparc2 on my desk, back in November, at the graphics performance "feel". I thought my little A3000 was much zippier. However, it wasn't churning X cycles, and it had only 1/4 the real estate to manage. I do have a soft spot for the amiga (being involved ith it since early '85) and i do hope that Commodore does succeed, but it may be a major struggle... --stephen $! stephen dowdy {Sun Systems Engineer} $! MicroAge Corporate Headquarters (sun!sunburn!romed!stephen) -- $! stephen dowdy $! MicroAge Corporate Headquarters (sun!sunburn!romed!stephen) $! BITNET: sdowdy@unmb $! Internet: sdowdy@law.UNM.EDU
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/14/91)
In article <44277@ut-emx.uucp> sjk@ut-emx.uucp (bob) writes:
So, can anyone start an intelligent debate comparing 3000UX (200MB
drive and 8+MB RAM) vs. bottom line Sparcstation? Forgive me if
this was done before, but I haven't seen it, yet.
Why bother since the NeXT is a better deal than the bottom of the line
Sparc? Now if you want to start comparing the NeXT to the Sparcs with
the graphics accelatator then there might be something to talk about.
-Mikempierce@ewu.UUCP (Mathew Pierce) (04/15/91)
In article <0&1G2r9p1@cs.psu.edu>, melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > > In article <44277@ut-emx.uucp> sjk@ut-emx.uucp (bob) writes: > > So, can anyone start an intelligent debate comparing 3000UX (200MB > drive and 8+MB RAM) vs. bottom line Sparcstation? Forgive me if > this was done before, but I haven't seen it, yet. > > Why bother since the NeXT is a better deal than the bottom of the line > Sparc? Read the bottom line sport, this is comp.sys.amiga.advocacy, not comp.sys.next.advocacy, there is your answer to the above, if you can't figure it out, email me and I'll draw you a map. >Now if you want to start comparing the NeXT to the Sparcs with > the graphics accelatator then there might be something to talk about. Naw, I would be interested in comparing the Amiga to the SPARC, maybe you should get the nExt vs SPARC going in comp.sys.next, I'll read about it there, honest. > > -Mike Matt
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/15/91)
In article <1527@ewu.UUCP> mpierce@ewu.UUCP (Mathew Pierce) writes: Read the bottom line sport, this is comp.sys.amiga.advocacy, not comp.sys.next.advocacy, there is your answer to the above, if you can't figure it out, email me and I'll draw you a map. >Now if you want to start comparing the NeXT to the Sparcs with > the graphics accelatator then there might be something to talk about. Naw, I would be interested in comparing the Amiga to the SPARC, maybe you should get the nExt vs SPARC going in comp.sys.next, I'll read about it there, honest. > > -Mike Matt I was just making the point that the low-end NeXT is a better deal than the low-end Sparc, so if the Amiga beats the NeXT, as so many of you have concluded, why bother comparing the Sparc and the Amiga? But something that you might want to think about? Sun used the 68030 in their last generation of machines. They have been pushing the Sparc architecture for a couple of years now. -Mike
dltaylor@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dan Taylor) (04/16/91)
In <0&1G2r9p1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >In article <44277@ut-emx.uucp> sjk@ut-emx.uucp (bob) writes: > So, can anyone start an intelligent debate comparing 3000UX (200MB > drive and 8+MB RAM) vs. bottom line Sparcstation? >Why bother since the NeXT is a better deal than the bottom of the line >Sparc? >-Mike Intelligent, not noise. Please remember, not the whole world gets NeXT educational discounts. Real discussion: The biggest single advantage that a Sun has (over NeXT, too, Mike) is the broad range of applications support. Since the Sun commercial base is a decade old, now, and the 68K applications got ported to SPARC, there is probably no other workstation under 7K, except the PC, with as many apps. Since the Sun is UNIX, of a sort, the commercial prices for software are high, but this will be a common factor in the comparision. After the 68K ABI for System V.4 gets established this difference will diminish, but may not disappear. When Amiga UNIX 2.0 comes out, there will be color X on the Amiga, but the lowest-end SUN will be monochrome, and not upgradable. There are slightly higher models that are upgradeable. The A3000 is self-contained, while the Sun requires a shoebox for disk. However, the A3000 doesn't currently have room for an internal cartridge tape, either. Personally, I opted for an A2500/30, and am waiting for the UNIX release. Meanwhile, I've got a killer personal computer. This brings up an Amiga strong point. The A3000 has 4 expansion slots, although 1 will be burned for the 24-bit color, and 1 for a network adapter, if you get them. They may not be necessary, for you. The Sun does come with embedded Ethernet. Sun's UNIX is closer to bsd than Amiga's, however, V.4 has a pretty good bsd compatiblity library, so "freeware" and university code ports reasonably well to the Amiga. There is also this: the A3000 can also be run as an Amiga. There are lots of inexpensive applications that run on AmigaDOS. Hands on, the A3000 feels more responsive than the low-end Sun. I do wish C= would publish Specmarks, but I suspect that they're waiting until UNIX 2.0 is out to get "real" numbers. I'd like to see the Xbench numbers then, too. As I said, I opted for an Amiga to run UNIX, partly because I don't have a lot of need for particular Sun applications. A lot of this comparison depends on how you plan to use the computer. Send me email if you'd like more detailed opinions. Dan Taylor * My opinions, not NCR's. *
ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (04/16/91)
My comprehensive comparison of Sparc IPC vs. NeXTstation vs. A3000:
Amiga software is cheapest (AmigaDOS) (Not counting free stuff)
Sparc has the largest installed base
Amiga has the best video and animation software
NeXTstation has best business productivity software
Sparc has the best engineering software
Amiga is cheapest color
NeXTstation is cheapest megapixel color
Sparc has the largest color palette (16M; Amiga & NeXT, 4096)
Amiga is most expandable (has Zorro III and ISA slots)
Amiga is most compatible (AMAX Mac emulator, 286 bridgecard)
Sparc gets the most press
NeXTstation includes the greatest amount of bundled software
NeXTstation bundled software is the most useful
Amiga has the best games
NeXTstation has the best sound
Sparc & NeXTstation have the fastest CPUs (nearly a tie)
NeXTstation has the best desktop manager
There. Go through this list and pick the machine that has the
features that are most important to you.
--
First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / /
ckp@grebyn.com \\ / /
Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o
Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/ekrimen@ecst.csuchico.edu (Ed Krimen) (04/17/91)
In article <1991Apr16.030609.1746@grebyn.com> ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: >My comprehensive comparison of Sparc IPC vs. NeXTstation vs. A3000: > > [good stuff deleted] > >There. Go through this list and pick the machine that has the >features that are most important to you. Great! NOW you did it! What are we going to do?! There's nothing to argue about. So, how about that World Football League? Isn't it the greatest? :^) -- Ed Krimen ............................................... ||| Video Production Major, California State University, Chico ||| INTERNET: ekrimen@ecst.csuchico.edu FREENET: al661 / | \ SysOp, Fuji BBS: 916-894-1261 FIDONET: 1:119/4.0
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (04/17/91)
In article <1991Apr16.030609.1746@grebyn.com>, ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: > My comprehensive comparison of Sparc IPC vs. NeXTstation vs. A3000: > > Amiga software is cheapest (AmigaDOS) (Not counting free stuff) > Sparc has the largest installed base > Amiga has the best video and animation software > NeXTstation has best business productivity software > Sparc has the best engineering software > Amiga is cheapest color > NeXTstation is cheapest megapixel color > Sparc has the largest color palette (16M; Amiga & NeXT, 4096) I don't think so. NeXTstation also has 16.7M pallette and with 4096 on-screen colors (with megapixel!). > Amiga is most expandable (has Zorro III and ISA slots) > Amiga is most compatible (AMAX Mac emulator, 286 bridgecard) > Sparc gets the most press > NeXTstation includes the greatest amount of bundled software > NeXTstation bundled software is the most useful > Amiga has the best games > NeXTstation has the best sound > Sparc & NeXTstation have the fastest CPUs (nearly a tie) > NeXTstation has the best desktop manager > > There. Go through this list and pick the machine that has the > features that are most important to you. Otherwise, your list seems quite reasonable to me. Jouni
ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) (04/17/91)
In article <1991Apr17.104408.6012@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: >In article <1991Apr16.030609.1746@grebyn.com>, ckp@grebyn.com (Checkpoint Technologies) writes: >> My comprehensive comparison of Sparc IPC vs. NeXTstation vs. A3000: >> >> Sparc has the largest color palette (16M; Amiga & NeXT, 4096) > >I don't think so. NeXTstation also has 16.7M pallette and with 4096 >on-screen colors (with megapixel!). Uh, I'm pretty sure that the NeXTstation Color uses 16 bit pixels, with 12 bits of direct color (4R, 4G, 4B) and 4 bits of "alpha". I'm not sure what the alpha is used for; there's no capability of mixing with an external video source. And there's no color palette at all. Rather like megapixel HAM with no fringing. :-) -- First comes the logo: C H E C K P O I N T T E C H N O L O G I E S / / ckp@grebyn.com \\ / / Then, the disclaimer: All expressed opinions are, indeed, opinions. \ / o Now for the witty part: I'm pink, therefore, I'm spam! \/
swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) (04/17/91)
In article <892@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM> dltaylor@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dan Taylor) writes: [...] >Sun's UNIX is closer to bsd than Amiga's, however, V.4 has a pretty >good bsd compatiblity library, so "freeware" and university code ports >reasonably well to the Amiga. [...] Sun runs sysV, just like the Amiga. But they are running R3 on v4.1.1 (which is what I have on my Sun right now), which does not have all the BSD extensions that R4 on the Amiga has. So how can the Sun OS be closer to BSD than the Amiga SVR4? Seriously, I am a hardware guy, so I may be missing something here, but this is what I understand to be the case with the SunOS right now (this box is a 3/80). _. --Steve ._||__ DISCLAIMER: All opinions are my own. Warren v\ *| ---------------------------------------------- V {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; swarren@convex.com --
jeremy@math.lsa.umich.edu (Jeremy Teitelbaum) (04/17/91)
Thanks to the good offices of Commodore Business machines here in Chicago,
we recently had the opportunity to try out the A3000UX ("big version",
with 9M RAM, 200M HD). Since we primarily run Sparc's (Sparcstation I
and IPC) I had some opportunity to make comparisons.
I will repeat here what I told the Commodore representative --
to make the A3000 competitive with the Sun market, two things
must be done:
1. The monitor must be improved (monochrome is OK, but the 1950 is
simply substandard in image quality and resolution).
When selling a computer, the way the darn thing looks
makes a huge difference. I just wasn't happy with the
screen quality on the A3000 -- and that makes me
FEEL like the computer is just a PC, even though all
the specs tell me it is a "real" workstation.
2. The price must be cut so that a clear price advantage stays with
the A3000 against the SLC or monochrome IPC (we get educational
discounts, so an IPC with 200M internal drive, monochrome, is about 4.5K now.
SLC less.)
Even though the A3000 is a good machine, why should I move away
from the Sun's? Comparable performance at comparable prices
is not good enough for Commodore. I am skeptical
that the A3000's 68030 can really keep up with the Sparc chip;
but even if it can, I need a powerful incentive to recommend
an A3000 over the IPC (or for that matter the '040 NeXT, which lots
of people here have bought recently.)
One strong point in Commodore's favor is the on-site repair policy.
Such support for our Sun's is prohibitively expensive, and we
do lose machines from time to time -- each time this happens,
there is a bit of a crisis as we hunt up money to fix it.
By the way, although I wouldn't currently recommend the A3000UX
over the Sun Sparc, I am planning to buy a cheaper A3000 for home, where
I can run AmigaDOS. I do see the advantages of the A3000 over
the other PC's on the market.
I am interested in balanced and reasoned criticism of the above remarks.
Jeremy Teitelbaum
Math Dept.
U. of Illinois -- Chicago
Chicago, IL 60680
312-996-2371dltaylor@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dan Taylor) (04/20/91)
In <1991Apr17.153934.3192@convex.com> swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) writes: >Sun runs sysV, just like the Amiga. No, SunOS is not System V, yet. Sun is MIGRATING to System V, 'specially since AT&T bought a chunk. AT&T also included many bsd and SunOS features into System V. They do have a port of OpenLook running on the SPARC. >So how can the Sun OS be closer to BSD than the Amiga SVR4? SunOS was originally based on a combination of version 7, bsd, and a proprietary overlay of Sun networking and display features. The MMU code, of course, was also proprietary. I don't have the migration plan docs here, but, from memory: Sun originally published a description of the differences in library calls, and system calls. They showed which System V calls were drop-ins, and which would be tougher. With each new release of SunOS, they added as many System Visms as practical. Remember, they have a lot of customers, and a large software base to support, so they can't just junk the original OS and switch to System V. Dropping long- term support for the 68K products helped, since the SPARC versions were already migrating. Anyway, the filesystem is really bsd, and so are the majority of the system and library calls. There is a System V bin, now. But, bsd application source compiles "as is", and the typical binary has bsd syntax. I don't know if SunOS has "streams", yet. You could ask comp.sys.sun. Given the SunOS history, and that the Amiga UNIX is REAL, licensed System V, that's how the difference. >Seriously, I am a hardware guy, so I may be missing something here, but this >is what I understand to be the case with the SunOS right now (this box is a >3/80). I'm a hardware guy who migrated to software (mostly). If you want the latest info, contact your local Sun sales office and ask them when they plan to complete the migration, and for a list of current SunOS/System V differences. Dan Taylor