alec_vondjidis@icecave.wimsey.bc.ca (Alec Vondjidis) (04/30/91)
Hi:
A friend of mine owns an Amiga and claims that it gives him 4096 simultaneous
colors. i then read messages that imply that the Amiga is only capable of
showing 32 of these colors when outputing to a VCR. Then I am told that
Workbench can only show 4 colors at a time. Then someone says text looks
"lousy" on an Amiga because it is 320X200 non interlaced or 320X400
interlaced, and then someone says the Amiga is a wonderful DTP machine
because it is capable of resolutions of 2,000X2,000 (on what monitor BTW?)
Could someone from Commodore, or some of you Amiga advocated, PLEASE post a
message explaining resolutions and colors that the Amiga is capable of, under
both Workbenches.
Thank you.
___ ___
/\ | | | GEnie: P.VONDJIDIS1
/__\ | |-- | Usenet: alec_vondjidis@icecave.wimsey.bc.ca
/ \ |___ |___ |___roger_earl@icecave.wimsey.bc.ca (Roger Earl) (04/30/91)
alec_vondjidis@icecave.wimsey.bc.ca (Alec Vondjidis) writes... >A friend of mine owns an Amiga and claims that it gives him 4096 simultaneous >colors. i then read messages that imply that the Amiga is only capable of >showing 32 of these colors when outputing to a VCR. Then I am told that >Workbench can only show 4 colors at a time. Then someone says text looks >"lousy" on an Amiga because it is 320X200 non interlaced or 320X400 >interlaced, and then someone says the Amiga is a wonderful DTP machine >because it is capable of resolutions of 2,000X2,000 (on what monitor BTW?) >Could someone from Commodore, or some of you Amiga advocated, PLEASE post a >message explaining resolutions and colors that the Amiga is capable of, >under both Workbenches. Hmmm, I'm that friend, and since you have posted this message I have explained a little about the Amiga's HAM mode. HAM is a graphics mode and not a Workbench productivity display. The text that 'looks lousy' is on 640x200 non-interlaced, with a flicker in 640x400 interlaced. As far as WB2.0 and the Expanded Chip Sets go, with a 1 meg Agnus, 640x480 non-interlaced will be the norm (or so I am told) as long as you have the monitor to show it (A VGA will do). With a 2 meg Agnus (A3000) productivity screens up to 1240x1240 are possible. As far as colors go, there is no further limitations when outputting to a VCR thru composite than using a monitor (the colors may bleed due to the nature of composite, but the Amiga composite output is actually quite good). I don't know the full details of what resolutions are possible with the ECS and WB2.0, but I can imagine possibilities of a 1 meg Agnus. I guess I'll just have to wait for WB2.0 to be sure. __________ | ______ | ________ | | | | | ______ | 'But that isn't a fair | | | | || || comparison. People | |______| | ||______|| like the Etch-A-Sketch.' | | | o o | | _ _ _ _ _| |________| (|__________|\ | ________)_ Roger Earl [^] | | roger_earl@icecave.wimsey.bc.ca [_] |__________|
rknop@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Robert Andrew Knop) (04/30/91)
alec_vondjidis@icecave.wimsey.bc.ca (Alec Vondjidis) writes: >Hi: >Could someone from Commodore, or some of you Amiga advocated, PLEASE post a >message explaining resolutions and colors that the Amiga is capable of, under >both Workbenches. I second this, and would also add the question that how many grey levels can the Amiga display simutaneously. What is possible, and what is easily practically attainable? Thanks, -Rob Knop rknop@tybalt.caltech.edu
<MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu> (04/30/91)
OK, well, the confusion here is probably because the Amiga has a large number of graphics modes with different resolution, number of colors, etc. Quick summary: In article <alec_vondjidis.6797@icecave.wimsey.bc.ca>, alec_vondjidis@icecave.wimsey.bc.ca (Alec Vondjidis) says: >A friend of mine owns an Amiga and claims that it gives him 4096 simultaneous >colors. i then read messages that imply that the Amiga is only capable of There is a graphics mode called HAM (hold-and-modify) which allows you to have all 4096 colors that the Amiga can generate onscreen at once. >showing 32 of these colors when outputing to a VCR. Then I am told that This is wrong, the Amiga can output all its colors to a VCR. >Workbench can only show 4 colors at a time. Then someone says text looks The Workbench is set up to only use a 4-color screen. If you really want to you can find PD utilities to run it on an 8 or 16 color screen instead, but it does run a bit slower then. >"lousy" on an Amiga because it is 320X200 non interlaced or 320X400 There are four "basic" modes in Amigas with the old chip set: 320x200, 320x400, 640x200, 640x400. In 320xanything mode there will be only 40 characters across the screen with the generic Amiga font, so obviously it won't look that great. That's why all text-intensive applications use 640xsomething. >interlaced, and then someone says the Amiga is a wonderful DTP machine >because it is capable of resolutions of 2,000X2,000 (on what monitor BTW?) The new Enhanced Chip Set (new graphics chips) allows more and higher resolution screens, maxing out at (I believe) 1008x800 with a special monitor Commodore makes. / Mark "Remixed for Common Household Appliances" Sachs - MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu \ | DISCLAIMER: It's NOT MY FAULT. Kei and Yuri || // || | forced me to say it. || \X/ AMIGA || \== "I think this calls for some diabolical laughter! RAAH HA HA HA HA HA!" ==/
sschaem@starnet.uucp (Stephan Schaem) (05/01/91)
You can have 4096 colors WB screens... But in lores only. You can have hires/interlaced/overscan workbench screen in 16 colors from a 4096 color palette. To resume all the video mode... 70ns/pixel or 140ns/pixel, palette of 4096 colors (4bitRed 4BitGreen 4BitBlue), interlaced, overscan ... Mix all the above to get the video mode of your choice:-) You also have extended mode like half bright, where you have '2' palette one is the same has the other but all colors half has bright. The amiga can display 640x400 with 16 colors, and 320x400 with 4096 colors.(More in 'resolution' if in overscan).
DXB132@psuvm.psu.edu (05/01/91)
In article <91120.110153MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu>, <MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu> says: >The new Enhanced Chip Set (new graphics chips) allows more and higher >resolution screens, maxing out at (I believe) 1008x800 with a special >monitor Commodore makes. ECS is unrelated to the Hedley. -- Dan Babcock
mpierce@ewu.UUCP (Mathew Pierce) (05/01/91)
In article <alec_vondjidis.6797@icecave.wimsey.bc.ca>, alec_vondjidis@icecave.wimsey.bc.ca (Alec Vondjidis) writes: > Hi: [Stuff deln the interest of brevity] > Could someone from Commodore, or some of you Amiga advocated, PLEASE post a > message explaining resolutions and colors that the Amiga is capable of, under > both Workbenches. > Thank you. > > ___ ___ > /\ | | | GEnie: P.VONDJIDIS1 > /__\ | |-- | Usenet: alec_vondjidis@icecave.wimsey.bc.ca > / \ |___ |___ |___ Standard >=2500 modes: 320 * 200 * 32 colors 320 * 200 * 64 colors [extra half brite] 320 * 200 * 4096 colors [ham] 320 * 400 * 32 colors 320 * 400 * 64 [extra half brite] (checked it just now - I love multitasking!!) 320 * 400 * 4096 [ham] 640 * 200 * 16 colors 640 * 400 * 16 colors *overscan in all modes can increase height and width* I can't remember exactly what the A3000 supports, but it will do all the above, plus 900 * 600 (4 colors ?), 640 * 480 * 4 colors, 1240(?) * 440 * 2 co?) Then there are the multitude of colors allowed using things like HAM-E, DCTV, FireCracker, and yes..colorburst. I haven't personally seen the colorburst, but I know the guy who programmed the paint package (James Prudente) and he among other friends seem to think that it is wonderful. -Matt Pierce
sdfusc@mac.cc.macalstr.edu (05/01/91)
In article <roger_earl.6841@icecave.wimsey.bc.ca>, roger_earl@icecave.wimsey.bc.ca (Roger Earl) writes: > alec_vondjidis@icecave.wimsey.bc.ca (Alec Vondjidis) writes... >>A friend of mine owns an Amiga and claims that it gives him 4096 simultaneous >>colors. i then read messages that imply that the Amiga is only capable of >>showing 32 of these colors when outputing to a VCR. Then I am told that >>Workbench can only show 4 colors at a time. Then someone says text looks >>"lousy" on an Amiga because it is 320X200 non interlaced or 320X400 >>interlaced, and then someone says the Amiga is a wonderful DTP machine >>because it is capable of resolutions of 2,000X2,000 (on what monitor BTW?) >>Could someone from Commodore, or some of you Amiga advocated, PLEASE post a >>message explaining resolutions and colors that the Amiga is capable of, >>under both Workbenches. > > Hmmm, I'm that friend, and since you have posted this message I have explained > a little about the Amiga's HAM mode. HAM is a graphics mode and not a > Workbench productivity display. > The text that 'looks lousy' is on 640x200 non-interlaced, with a flicker in I don't think it looks THAT bad...take a look at CGA or EGA...also, methinks it looks just fine with an A2320. > 640x400 interlaced. As far as WB2.0 and the Expanded Chip Sets go, with a 1 I know its a given, but this mode does look pretty with a flicker fixer. > meg Agnus, 640x480 non-interlaced will be the norm (or so I am told) as long > as you have the monitor to show it (A VGA will do). With a 2 meg Agnus > (A3000) productivity screens up to 1240x1240 are possible. 1240 x 1240? Check again. I could be wrong, as I don't know final specs of the chip set, but I'm almost positive the new productivity-interlaced mode is 1240x400, with 4 colors onscreen of 64. I also think the 2 meg agnus has little/nothing to do with it; its the new Denise thats responsible for enhanced display modes. Ditto for the A3000 part; the ECS should do the same thing on any other machine. > As far as colors go, there is no further limitations when outputting to a VCR > thru composite than using a monitor (the colors may bleed due to the nature > of composite, but the Amiga composite output is actually quite good). > > I don't know the full details of what resolutions are possible with the ECS > and WB2.0, but I can imagine possibilities of a 1 meg Agnus. I guess I'll > just have to wait for WB2.0 to be sure. > > __________ > | ______ | > ________ | | | | > | ______ | 'But that isn't a fair | | | | > || || comparison. People | |______| | > ||______|| like the Etch-A-Sketch.' | | > | o o | | _ _ _ _ _| > |________| (|__________|\ > | ________)_ > Roger Earl [^] | | > roger_earl@icecave.wimsey.bc.ca [_] |__________| A few other things I feel deserve mention: o Overscan capabilities in all resolutions; these push hi-res, for example, up to a maximum of 768 x 480. o Dynamic hi-res mode which allows all 4096 colors (16 per/scan line) to be displayed at up to 768 x 480. (Useless for animation because of the power needed to maintain the display, but it works for static images) o The flexibility of the copper/custom chip set, allowing for multiple custom screens of different resolutions to appear on the same screen (divided vertically) at the same time. This gives the Amiga tremendous flexibility; many games and applications (titling programs, or DVIII) use this capability to boost the number of flexibly displayed and animated onscreen colors beyond 16, 32, or 64. This is how games like Shadow of the Beast manage 128 colors+ on screen. o Halfbrite mode, allowing (in 320 x 400 and 320 x 200) 64 total colors on screen simultaneously; the first 32 are user-definable, and the second 32 are half as brite as the first set. If anyone has anything else to add (bitplanes, specifics about HAM, etc.) fell free... Doug SDFUSC@MACALSTR.EDU
sdfusc@mac.cc.macalstr.edu (05/01/91)
> If anyone has anything else to add (bitplanes, specifics about HAM, > etc.) fell free... > > Doug > SDFUSC@MACALSTR.EDU > I'll add to my own message and mention the 1-meg/2-meg agnus's ability to switch, in either hardware (I had a switch for a while) or software to PAL. PAL works on most monitors, and boosts the vertical resolution to 256 (non-overscan) in the lo-res modes and 512 (non-overscan) in hi-res, with a slight flicker (50Hz vs 60 for NTSC).
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (05/01/91)
In article <1991Apr30.070839.3852@nntp-server.caltech.edu> rknop@nntp-server.caltech.edu (Robert Andrew Knop) writes: > I second this, and would also add the question that how many grey levels can > the Amiga display simutaneously. What is possible, and what is easily > practically attainable? 16 gray levels easily. 48 levels if you combine the RGB outputs and choose appropriate colors. This is a hardware mod. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (05/01/91)
In article <91120.110153MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu> <MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu> writes: > >interlaced, and then someone says the Amiga is a wonderful DTP machine > >because it is capable of resolutions of 2,000X2,000 (on what monitor BTW?) > The new Enhanced Chip Set (new graphics chips) allows more and higher > resolution screens, maxing out at (I believe) 1008x800 with a special > monitor Commodore makes. I've gone to 1280 by 400 (before overscan) on my 1080, but it's too fuzzy to read. A *good* long-persistence analog RGB monitor would have no problem. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
heinola@hkkk.fi (Bror Heinola) (05/02/91)
In <alec_vondjidis.6797@icecave.wimsey.bc.ca> alec_vondjidis@icecave.wimsey.bc.ca (Alec Vondjidis) writes: >Hi: >A friend of mine owns an Amiga and claims that it gives him 4096 simultaneous >colors. i then read messages that imply that the Amiga is only capable of >showing 32 of these colors when outputing to a VCR. Then I am told that >Workbench can only show 4 colors at a time. Then someone says text looks >"lousy" on an Amiga because it is 320X200 non interlaced or 320X400 >interlaced, and then someone says the Amiga is a wonderful DTP machine >because it is capable of resolutions of 2,000X2,000 (on what monitor BTW?) >Could someone from Commodore, or some of you Amiga advocated, PLEASE post a >message explaining resolutions and colors that the Amiga is capable of, under >both Workbenches. >Thank you. This following list is not mine; I found it from some comp.sys.amiga newsgroup some time ago, but I'll repost it now. I think the original was something like ST vs. Amiga in graphics. [The following Amiga video mode list was compiled by Joe Smith (jms@tardis. Tymnet.COM) and has been reposted for this comparison.] Question: What display modes does the Amiga have? Answer: Lots. Mode NTSC PAL ECS Hfreq Colors Palette -------------------- -------- -------- --- ----- ------ ------- Lores 320x200 320x256 no 15KHz 32 4096 Lores-ExtraHalfBrite 320x200 320x256 no* 15KHz 64 4096 (restricted) Lores-HAM 320x200 320x256 no 15KHz 4096 4096 (restricted) Hires 640x200 640x256 no 15KHz 16 4096 Super-Hires 1280x200 1280x256 yes 15KHz 4 64 (35 nanosecond) Lores-Interlaced 320x400 320x512 no 15KHz 32 4096 Lores-EHB-Interlaced 320x400 320x512 no* 15KHz 64 4096 (restricted) Lores-HAM-Interlaced 320x400 320x512 no 15KHz 4096 4096 (restricted) Hires-Interlaced 640x400 640x512 no 15KHz 16 4096 Super-Hires-Interlaced 1280x400 1280x512 yes 15KHz 4 64 (35 nanosecond) VGA-ExtraLores 160x480 same yes 31KHz 32 4096 VGA-Lores 320x480 same yes 31KHz 16 4096 Productivity 640x480 same yes 31KHz 16 4096 Productivity-Interlaced 640x960 same yes 31KHz 4 64 A2024-10Hz 1008x800 1008x1024 no special 4 16 shades of gray A2024-15Hz 1008x800 1008x1024 no special 4 16 shades of gray Notes: * Some early A1000's did not have ExtraHalfBrite. It is easy to upgrade. * The 2nd 32 colors of EHB mode are restricted. They are the same as the first 32 colors with the red, green, and blue values reduced to one half. * HAM mode (Hold And Modify mode) allows all 4096 colors to be displayed, but has restrictions affecting adjacent pixels of differing colors. [Please also note that the above mode list is not showing their perspective values in overscan, meaning- most of the above resoulitions will increase their X and Y values simply by using overscan. IE: A 640x400 mode can go to 704x440 or higher in overscan. Also note that a new mode has been created via some recent software tricks: 704x440 in 4096 different colors. These are true colors and not "shadings" or "blendings".] -- =<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>= # Bror Heinola # NetMail: # Public BBS system: # # Programmer # heinola@karl.hkkk.fi # Twilight Zone MBBS #
accangel@amix.commodore.com (Mark Gardner) (05/02/91)
Okay, this is as definitive a description of the Amiga graphics modes as I can give. An Amiga without version 2.0 or later of the operating system can display screens at 320x200, 640x200, 320x400, and 640x400 pixel resolution. The latter two's vertical resolution is achieved by having the screen's electronic beam draw every other line, then moving back up to the top of the screen, down a half-line, and then drawing the other 200, in between the first set. This is called interlacing, and is why high-contrast screens of this nature appear to "flicker" on the Amiga - the odd lines are beginning to fade as the even ones are being drawn, and vice versa. Mow, as far as color resolution is concerned, an Amiga without any add-on graphics boards has what are known as 32 color registers. Think of them as electronic inkwells - they each store three numbers from 0 to 15, defining a color by the amounts of red, green, and blue mixed into it. By doing a little arithmetic, it is shown that the Amiga has 4096 colors to choose from to put in these color registers (16 to the power of 3). This is where it gets tricky. For each pixel on the screen, the Amiga assigns a number referring to one of the color registers. However, there are certain limits imposed - for instance, both 640x200 and 640x400 can only choose from 16 color registers. Amiga techies say these screens are limited to four bit-planes; that is, they are limited to 2 to the power of 4 number of colors. 320x200 and 320x400 can do up to six bit-planes - 2 to the power of 6, or 64 different values that each pixel can hold. But hold on a minute. Didn't I say earlier the Amiga only has 32 color registers (capacity to fill five bit-planes)? What is the other bit-plane used for? Well, in the case of a screen that is set to "Extra-Halfbrite" mode, it is used to tell the Amiga display to either show the regular color found in whatever color register it's set to, or to tell the display to show a half-brightness version of that color. Confused enough yet? There's another way a six bit-plane display can be used to display more than 32 colors onscreen. This mode is called HAM, short for Hold-And-Modify. This is REALLY hard to explain, so I'll try to simplify. Basically, each pixel can tell the display one of four things - A) show one of the first sixteen color registers; B) take the color of the pixel immediately to the left of this one and change its red value to something else; C) do the same as (B), only to the green value; or D) do the same as (B), only to the blue value. This is why it's called Hold-And-Modify - each pixel can HOLD some of the color found in its left neighbor and MODIFY a part of it to obtain a different color. Using that method, one can create a display that shows all 4096 of the Amiga's color palette, indirectly, using only 6 bit-planes. This saves memory, always a precious commodity on a multitasking computer like the Amiga. Mmmm. Seems I've used a LOT of lines to explain all this. I'll leave the explanation of the new graphics modes available using the Enhanced Chip Set (included in all Amigas currently being produced) and version 2.0 of the operating system (only available for the Amiga 3000 and 3000T at this time) to someone who HAS such a beastie. Me, I'm stuck with an Amiga 500, version 1.3 of the OS, and no ECS. Ah, woe is me.... -MG "Can you say LONG-WINDED, boys and girls...? Hope this helps someone out there, anyway...." ---------- Mark Gardner UUCP: uunet!cbmvax!amix!undrground!accangel Internet: undrground!accangel@amix.commodore.com
dvljrt@cs.umu.se (Joakim Rosqvist) (05/02/91)
In article <1991May1.004232.4900@starnet.uucp> sschaem@starnet.uucp (Stephan Schaem) writes: > > You can have 4096 colors WB screens... But in lores only. > You can have hires/interlaced/overscan workbench screen in 16 colors > from a 4096 color palette. > To resume all the video mode... 70ns/pixel or 140ns/pixel, palette of > 4096 colors (4bitRed 4BitGreen 4BitBlue), interlaced, overscan ... > Mix all the above to get the video mode of your choice:-) > You also have extended mode like half bright, where you have '2' > palette one is the same has the other but all colors half has bright. > The amiga can display 640x400 with 16 colors, and 320x400 with 4096 > colors.(More in 'resolution' if in overscan). > > ..and you could also let the copper change the palette all the time. That way you can theoretically have 4096 colors in *any* graphics mode. /$DR.HEX$
sschaem@starnet.uucp (Stephan Schaem) (05/03/91)
4096 colors in *any* graphics mode is not what I would say, You a palette for each scan line... The nicest result I have from that is in lores 5bitplane! Of course I cheat a bit because the image are not a wide has posible to give time for the 32 color palete change. And in 4bit lores mode you can change color every 8 pixels, plus the VBlank to change the palette. I think only hiresx200 can display less than 4096 total colors. Stephan.
dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (05/04/91)
In article <alec_vondjidis.6797@icecave.wimsey.bc.ca> alec_vondjidis@icecave.wimsey.bc.ca (Alec Vondjidis) writes: >Hi: >A friend of mine owns an Amiga and claims that it gives him 4096 simultaneous >colors. i then read messages that imply that the Amiga is only capable of >showing 32 of these colors when outputing to a VCR. Then I am told that >Workbench can only show 4 colors at a time. Then someone says text looks >"lousy" on an Amiga because it is 320X200 non interlaced or 320X400 >interlaced, and then someone says the Amiga is a wonderful DTP machine >because it is capable of resolutions of 2,000X2,000 (on what monitor BTW?) >Could someone from Commodore, or some of you Amiga advocated, PLEASE post a >message explaining resolutions and colors that the Amiga is capable of, under >both Workbenches. Since I have had little time on an Amiga 3000, I will limit this to the Amiga 1.3 modes. The oldest Amiga, 6 years old, is capable of the following, with no special add on boards, although some have no 64 color half-brite chip. 320 x 200 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64 colors 320 x 200 4094 colors HAM 320 x 400 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64 colors, interlaced 320 x 400 4096 colors HAM, interlaced 640 x 200 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64 colors 640 x 200 4096 colors Dynamic Hi Res 640 x 400 4096 colors Dynamic Hi Res, interlaced 368 x 241 overscan mode 368 x 482 overscan mode 738 x 241 overscan mode 738 x 482 overscan mode Workbench1.3 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64 colors Normally the Workbench uses 4 colors with 640 x 200, but more colors and 640 x 400 can be used with preference programs. There are some programs use dithering to get as much as 100,000 colors. Hardware boards have increased the colors to 24 bit, along with 1024 x 1024 or more. Text does look terrible in 320 x 200 mode. Solution: don't use 320 x 200 mode for text (I have yet to see anybody use that except for in their games). All graphics modes can output to a VCR, but interlaced modes are preferred. I once recorded output from an Atari 2600 to a VCR, which is really no big deal. And as for the Workbench 4 color usage, it really is no big deal. The Workbench is only used to access the programs off the disks, with a few utilities written for the Workbench. 4 colors is better than 4 shades of grey! Some of the higher res modes may not have the same color capabilities depending on the Agnus chip. Otherwise, all this on a $500 computer. >Thank you. > > ___ ___ > /\ | | | GEnie: P.VONDJIDIS1 > /__\ | |-- | Usenet: alec_vondjidis@icecave.wimsey.bc.ca > / \ |___ |___ |___ -- David Tiberio SUNY Stony Brook 2-3481 AMIGA DDD-MEN "If you think that we're here for the money, we could live without it. But the world isn't too good here, and it wasn't always like that." Un ragazzo di Casalbordino, Italia.