pwvicory@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Paul William Vicory) (04/25/91)
This may be very late and old news, but I would like to express the
concerns of both myself and of many (5-6 Amiga 1000 users) , O.K., several
of my friends. All of us spent over $1300 in 1986 to invest in what we felt
was the wave of the future in computers: the Commodore Amiga 1000. My dis-
pute isn't with whether our choice was right or not, but it is a concern
to us that our Amiga's appear to be worthless in the computer marketplace.
Right now, I can't give my Amiga 1000 away. I would like to upgrade, but I
will never be able to justify or allow it if I can't sell the computer I have.
Will Commodore, if they are really interested in selling the new Amiga's,
offer some kind of discount to those who invested heavily in the Amiga at
the outset. None of us could take advantage of the Commodore buyback offer
of last year: we were all still paying off or recovering from the loans we
took out to get these Amiga's.
If I read Doug Barney's most recent editorial correctly, perhaps the
Amiga is finished and a deadend path as far as computers go. If the Amiga
goes the way of the C=64, my previous computer expenditure and waste of
dollars that could have gone into a system (like an IBM) that I could have
upgraded and still be using today, I will certainly not recommend or purchase
Commodore products in the future.doctorj@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Jeffrey W Davis) (04/25/91)
In article <1991Apr25.042851.8912@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu> pwvicory@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Paul William Vicory) writes: > > This may be very late and old news, but I would like to express the >concerns of both myself and of many (5-6 Amiga 1000 users) , O.K., several >of my friends. All of us spent over $1300 in 1986 to invest in what we felt >was the wave of the future in computers: the Commodore Amiga 1000. My dis- >pute isn't with whether our choice was right or not, but it is a concern >to us that our Amiga's appear to be worthless in the computer marketplace. >Right now, I can't give my Amiga 1000 away. I would like to upgrade, but I >will never be able to justify or allow it if I can't sell the computer I have. > If I read Doug Barney's most recent editorial correctly, perhaps the >Amiga is finished and a deadend path as far as computers go. If the Amiga >goes the way of the C=64, my previous computer expenditure and waste of >dollars that could have gone into a system (like an IBM) that I could have >upgraded and still be using today, I will certainly not recommend or purchase >Commodore products in the future. I don't believe that the Amiga will ever really be a deadend machine. The A1000 has been abandoned by C=, but it will never die (as far as I am concerned). I have 2 A1000's (one I purchased 2 months ago) that will keep up with the rest of the pack. I liked the design and hardware architecture back in '86 when I bought the first one and still do. What current limitations are bothering you anyways? The A500 is currently in production and their peripherals work on the A1000 if you turn them around. All you need to get up to date (completely) with the rest is a Rejuvenator board. This will give you the up-to-date architecture requred for the Enhanced chip set, A500/2000 compatable clock, video slot (lets see that on a 500), etc. The only real intangible is to have totally 32-bit wide memory/bus as in the A3000. And once you have made these UPDATES, the door is open to practically everything else. I run an 020 A1000 system w/4M 32-bit memory. I can afford this BECAUSE it is on an A1000. If there is something that can be done on an A2000 that I cannot do, I would sure like to hear it! (And I can run the *A3000* version of KS2.0 NOW! No software modifications either! All on an outdated, unsupported, deadended, ancient A1000!) :-) *********************************************************** * Jeff Davis * Relax! And get into /// * * doctorj@en.ecn.purdue.edu * the STRESS!!! /// * * * \\\///030 * * * -Gigahertz!- Amiga\XX/ 882 * *********************************************************** "Hey! This shit is True I'm makin' up!"
consp13@bingsunp.bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (Marcus Cannava) (04/25/91)
>An awful _lot_ of computers which cost $$ back in 1986 aren't worth much >on resale now either... but this is natural, I think. We all seem to >expect "favors" from computer companies, which we would never expect >from, say, a television maker. (OTOH, it could easily be said that an >enthusiastic computer owner is worth his weight in advertising gold :-). I think this is a bit of an unfair comparison, since televisions don't become "obsolete" one year after purchase. I don't think there's any other industry that moves as fast as the computer industry. (Do you find your microwave from two years ago "obsolete" ? No, but two years in computer-time is like eons.) And, given the fact that today's computer will be severely underpowered in two years (a short time, really), I think the computer companies could at least soften the blow by promising that you'll have somewhere to go, reasonably, after those two years are over and you find yourself out in the cold. (To be fair, Commodore did offer a trade-up program for the A2000.. I believe it was $1000 + A1000 = A2000) \marc -- consp13@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu Marcus N. Cannava @bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu SUNY-Binghamton ---------------------------------- Student Consultant 'I do not fear computers.. I fear the lack of them' -- I. Asimov RNM
kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (04/25/91)
pwvicory@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Paul William Vicory) writes: >Right now, I can't give my Amiga 1000 away. I would like to upgrade, but I >will never be able to justify or allow it if I can't sell the computer I have. >Will Commodore, if they are really interested in selling the new Amiga's, >offer some kind of discount to those who invested heavily in the Amiga at >the outset. An awful _lot_ of computers which cost $$ back in 1986 aren't worth much on resale now either... but this is natural, I think. We all seem to expect "favors" from computer companies, which we would never expect from, say, a television maker. (OTOH, it could easily be said that an enthusiastic computer owner is worth his weight in advertising gold :-). In the case of personal computers, it was fairly unusual for Commodore to have made the original trade-in offers on the A1000. Alas, I couldn't take them up on it either at the time. So while I understand fully what you meant about its current resale value, I also don't think it's up to Commodore to make it up to us. best - kev <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>
u3364521@ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (Lou Cavallo) (04/25/91)
G'day, I'm not replying via e-mail as my news s/w popped up with a note suggesting not to (neat trick Paul, if you were responsible). Paul William Vicory (pwvicory@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu) writes: > This may be very late and old news, but I would like to express the > concerns of both myself and of many (5-6 Amiga 1000 users) , O.K., several > of my friends. All of us spent over $1300 in 1986 to invest in what we felt > was the wave of the future in computers: the Commodore Amiga 1000. My dis- As a personal aside here, I felt back in '87 when I bought my Amiga that I was going to be part of a big gamble. I did not feel that I wanted a gua- rantee that my own purchasing decision would turn out to be a sound one. I guess I bought my Amiga because I wanted a personal computer that had... some excitement to it (sorry that I can't define it better). I didn't feel that the standard offerings *then* had that quality. > pute isn't with whether our choice was right or not, but it is a concern > to us that our Amiga's appear to be worthless in the computer marketplace. Yes, I do feel a litle down about this. A friend of mine owns an IBM clone PC (XT) and feels similarly to myself wrt the technical obsolescence. {Note that when I say this wrt my friend, neither of us is dismissing the expans- ion possibilites that he (nor myself as an A1000 owner) has. It is simply a fact that the newer more powerful models of our favourite machines are much cheaper to expand than our older technology boxes.} This is a fact of a pc (generic, not IBM style) owners life IMHO. It isn't peculiar to the Amiga 1000 in any way. > Right now, I can't give my Amiga 1000 away. I would like to upgrade, but I > will never be able to justify or allow it if I can't sell the computer I have. I too am struggling to save the money for an upgrade and I have had to opt to upgrade my A1000 gradually (I haven't begun to yet, money problems). > Will Commodore, if they are really interested in selling the new Amiga's, > offer some kind of discount to those who invested heavily in the Amiga at This probably won't be an international policy of CBM. Perhaps they may do so again for A1000 owners in the US(I don't think so) but they may not down here in Australia. > the outset. None of us could take advantage of the Commodore buyback offer > of last year: we were all still paying off or recovering from the loans we > took out to get these Amiga's. My own observations are that here in Australia that the effective market prices for A2000's, expansion products for A500's etc is starting to drop. The A3000's are still too new to expect price breaks/discounts for them. The market appears to be getting better for an upgrade to a sub A3000 type of machine. (A 2nd hand A2000 with 9Megs RAM, 40 Meg HD with OS 1.3 & 2.0 was offered for sale for $3000 recently here. Boy did I *want* to buy that Amiga :-) but I can hardly afford an A500 without a loan). > If I read Doug Barney's most recent editorial correctly, perhaps the I haven't seen this. Please can someone point me to the issue etc. > Amiga is finished and a deadend path as far as computers go. If the Amiga I would really have to ask why you think this is so. I've read some of his thoughts regarding Amigas and I'd say I think he likes them. > goes the way of the C=64, my previous computer expenditure and waste of > dollars that could have gone into a system (like an IBM) that I could have > upgraded and still be using today, I will certainly not recommend or purchase > Commodore products in the future. I'm still finding it hard to recommend an Amiga to anyone that asks me for my opinion regarding a pc purchase *if* they need a computer "appliance".. ie. switch it on and use the s/w and get great results. I find that those people I know that have bought Amigas after learning from me about them do want to use a computer for other reasons than just writing easy essays etc. I do recommend Amiga purchases (but always cautiously as you should for any type of pc purchase). As a postscript my XT owning friend will probably buy an Amiga. Why? He's also a musical kind of guy and after a lot of research decided that an A500 with DMCS was the cheapest and best entry level computer MIDI platform that he could afford. {He looked at IBM sound cards, Atari pc's etc}. I haven't addressed any of the current expenditure issues that confront the Amiga (or potential Amiga) purchaser (as indeed you chose not to do either). I don't feel however that your feeling of wasted expenditure on (our) older A1000 technology can be a guide for the purchase of current day Amiga prod- ucts. The discussion of those purchases (merits/demerits) I feel belongs in another news thread. {I feel that the experience of A1000 owners purchases relate very little to the new Amiga environment i.e better CBM products and engineering (and *I* think management, perhaps not marketing :-)), better & more choices for 3rd party products etc.} This thread should probably be about what current A1000 owners should know in order to make there own decision to expand/upgrade to new Amiga technology or to go to other technology. I'm sticking with Amiga. I still feel the "excitement". :-) yours truly, Lou Cavallo.
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (04/26/91)
In article <1991Apr25.042851.8912@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu> pwvicory@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Paul William Vicory) writes: > This may be very late and old news, but I would like to express the >concerns of both myself and of many (5-6 Amiga 1000 users) , O.K., several >of my friends. All of us spent over $1300 in 1986 to invest in what we felt >was the wave of the future in computers: the Commodore Amiga 1000. My dis- >pute isn't with whether our choice was right or not, but it is a concern >to us that our Amiga's appear to be worthless in the computer marketplace. You don't get much in the way of money back for any computer that old. You can get an A500 these days, brand new, for about $500. While I would personally rather have an A1000 on my desk than an A500, it's awful hard to make the average person believe that a used five year old computer is worth as much as a brand new one. I had the same problem trying to sell my five year old Fiero last fall. I paid about $9000 for that baby in '86, yet no one seemed willing to pay me more than a couple hundred. GM wouldn't put a new suspension system and turbo charged engine it in, nor would they give me a big break on a new model to replace it (not that they had one I wanted, in any case). As far as the A1000 being worthless as a computer, why is that? Mine seems to work just as well now as it did when I bought it. Better, actually, since it now has four times the memory. >Right now, I can't give my Amiga 1000 away. I would like to upgrade, but I >will never be able to justify or allow it if I can't sell the computer I have. You would have the same problem with a PC-XT or 128/512K Mac. >Will Commodore, if they are really interested in selling the new Amiga's, >offer some kind of discount to those who invested heavily in the Amiga at >the outset. None of us could take advantage of the Commodore buyback offer >of last year: we were all still paying off or recovering from the loans we >took out to get these Amiga's. That is certainly a marketing issue, but at least they did make the offer. I'm no sales or marketing guy, but I think it's understandable that Commodore may not wish to keep such an offer going indefinitely. Far as I know, they were the only ones in the business to make such an offer. Apple has offered motherboard upgrades in the past, but you're usually better off selling the old machine and buying a new one, these things can be real expensive. IBM and most of the others give you no offer, and suggest you scrap the old system and buy a new one. >If the Amiga goes the way of the C=64, Commodore sold some 46% more C64s this last quarter than a year ago. It's hardly going away. >my previous computer expenditure and waste of dollars that could have gone >into a system (like an IBM) that I could have upgraded and still be using >today, I will certainly not recommend or purchase Commodore products in the >future. You could upgrade and run 2.0 on an A1000 a heck of alot easier than you can upgrade an original IBM PC and run OS/2 or Windows 3.0 on it. The only way at present to directly upgrade either system is via plug ins. There was an offer from Commodore, which you declined to accept, to trade up to an A2000. IBM never made such an offer, your only recourse with a system like that would be to go out and purchase some new IBM PC-sized motherboard and integrate an upgrade on your own. And forget upgrading a 128K/512K Mac, your only choice is to replace either the motherboard, assuming Apple will still do this for you, or the entire system. At least with the A1000, you can plug in extra memory, do a ROM conversion, etc. via third party add-ins onto the same basic platform. Technology marches on, and it's impossible to build in hooks for everything you're going to want five years from now. Believe me, that's my specality, what I tried to do for the A2000 and A3000. You don't alway know how things will progress. You can plan for changes and upgrades, but you don't know what's coming. The A3000 is capable of doing things no A2000 will do, and there's nothing we can do to an A2000 to change that. This is progress. Some day there will in all likelihood be an Amiga that's fancier and more powerful than the A3000. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (04/26/91)
consp13@bingsunp.bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (Marcus Cannava) writes: >>An awful _lot_ of computers which cost $$ back in 1986 aren't worth much >>on resale now either... but this is natural, I think. We all seem to >>expect "favors" from computer companies, which we would never expect >>from, say, a television maker. (OTOH, it could easily be said that an >>enthusiastic computer owner is worth his weight in advertising gold :-). > >I think this is a bit of an unfair comparison, since televisions don't >become "obsolete" one year after purchase. I don't think there's any >other industry that moves as fast as the computer industry. (Do you >find your microwave from two years ago "obsolete" ? No, but two years >in computer-time is like eons.) Actually, it's hard to compare anything to computers, since people invest so much time and money into them afterwards (like cars, maybe?) An old computer is only "obsolete" in the eye of the beholder. It doesn't self-destruct or become less useful than it was, any more than a TV or microwave does. Yet I admit to looking with desire at newer digital projection super-duper TVs, even tho my old TV is perfectly usable <g>. In other words, sure TVs and microwaves become "obsolete", at least as much as the hardware in a computer does. The difference is: people (make that most people) aren't religious about appliance "power" :-). Hmm.. maybe they _are_ more like cars. best - kev <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>
manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) (04/26/91)
In article <1991Apr25.042851.8912@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu>, pwvicory@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Paul William Vicory) writes: Sigh... Here we go again. My tissue is in my hand...tears are streaming down my face. Now that the stage is set: > This may be very late and old news, but I would like to express the > concerns of both myself and of many (5-6 Amiga 1000 users) , O.K., several > of my friends. All of us spent over $1300 in 1986 to invest in what we felt > was the wave of the future in computers: the Commodore Amiga 1000. My dis- > pute isn't with whether our choice was right or not, but it is a concern > to us that our Amiga's appear to be worthless in the computer marketplace. > Right now, I can't give my Amiga 1000 away. I would like to upgrade, but I Actually you can give it away! I'll take it! However after reading this message you probably won't want too. > will never be able to justify or allow it if I can't sell the computer I have. > Will Commodore, if they are really interested in selling the new Amiga's, > offer some kind of discount to those who invested heavily in the Amiga at > the outset. None of us could take advantage of the Commodore buyback offer > of last year: we were all still paying off or recovering from the loans we > took out to get these Amiga's. > If I read Doug Barney's most recent editorial correctly, perhaps the > Amiga is finished and a deadend path as far as computers go. If the Amiga Actually if Doug Barney thinks the Amiga is finished, it improves my opinion of Commodore and the Commodore marketplace in general. Doug Barney is a twit plain and simple. > goes the way of the C=64, my previous computer expenditure and waste of > dollars that could have gone into a system (like an IBM) that I could have > upgraded and still be using today, I will certainly not recommend or purchase > Commodore products in the future. You know it is funny. I _never_ see these kind of postings from anyone but Amiga 1000 owners. I have never seen it on any other platform that I can think of. And there are certainly _real_ cases of abadonment on other computer platforms. Remember the Apple Lisa? How about the PCjr? However, the reason for my followup was to flame you a bit for posting such a whine, and to give you this bit of news. Commodore has announced "yet another" trade-in like deal. Here is the scoop! Commodore will give up to $1500 for _any_ Commodore computer including the Vic 20, C64, C128, AMIGA 1000, A500, A2000 if you purchase a Amiga 3000 by June 30th. Here is the deal. Commodore will give you the following off if you purchase: Amiga 3000 (25mhz/5mb/100mb HD) --- $1500 off Amiga 3000 (25mhz/2mb/50mb HD) --- $1250 off Amiga 3000 (16mhz/2mb/50mb HD) --- $1150 off Your requirements: - You must bring in the front cover of your owners manual (not a copy!) - On that cover the serial number of your CPU must be written That's the deal, and in my opinion, a most _excellent_ deal. For about $1600 you can have a nice new shiney A3000! Now, please do me a favor and stop whining. This is essentially the _third_ time Commodore has given you to upgrade. Please do it this time...or forever hold your peace! By the way I have a Amiga 10000 with 2.5 mb of memory at home, in case you are wondering. -mark= +--------+ ================================================== | \/ | Mark D. Manes "Mr. AmigaVision, The 32 bit guy" | /\ \/ | manes@vger.nsu.edu | / | (804) 683-2532 "Make up your own mind! - AMIGA" +--------+ ==================================================
robart@agora.rain.com (Robert Barton) (04/28/91)
pwvicory@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Paul William Vicory) writes: > Will Commodore, if they are really interested in selling the new Amiga's [sic], > offer some kind of discount to those who invested heavily in the Amiga at the > outset. Yes, they have just announced such an offer, and not only for those who bought Amigas, but also VIC 20 and C64/C128 machines as well. > None of us could take advantage of the Commodore buyback offer of last year: > we were all still paying off or recovering from the loans we took out to get > these Amiga's. Having 5 years to pay off a $1300 product doesn't sound all that onerous. But in any event, the new program is a simple discount which doesn't require you to give back your computer or even your keyboard. And you end up with an A3000 rather than the A2000 like last year's offer.
davewt@NCoast.ORG (David Wright) (04/29/91)
In article <1991Apr28.105420.21619@agora.rain.com> robart@agora.rain.com (Robert Barton) writes: >pwvicory@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Paul William Vicory) writes: >> Will Commodore, if they are really interested in selling the new Amiga's [sic], >> offer some kind of discount to those who invested heavily in the Amiga at the >> outset. > >> None of us could take advantage of the Commodore buyback offer of last year: >> we were all still paying off or recovering from the loans we took out to get >> these Amiga's. > > Having 5 years to pay off a $1300 product doesn't sound all that onerous. >But in any event, the new program is a simple discount which doesn't require >you to give back your computer or even your keyboard. And you end up with >an A3000 rather than the A2000 like last year's offer. Are these people for real? I have heard this so many times I am getting sick of it. It always goes something like this: "I took a gamble early-on with C=/Amiga when they were shaky, now I want to get something in return". In general, you can pick any of these apropriate responses: 1) You ARE getting something in return, to see the Amiga FINALLY do well! 2) What? You expect C= to "give you something" for a ONE TIME purchase, ONCE, OVER 5 YEARS ago (if the person is really being honest about when they bought their Amiga 1000)? (Please! I bought my 1000 when they were $1250, for 256k, no monitor included at that price. Total package price was about $2000. I didn't expect them to give me a DIME on a trade-in when I bought a 2000, and I didn't take advantage of the "1000 + $1000" offer because I wanted to HELP the Amiga communitee and C= itself (I didn't know what they would do with the 1000's at the time. I thought that C= might be absorbing the cost (which they did to a small extent) and I didn't want to take any money out of their pockets), so I sold my ENTIRE 1000 system (2 floppies, 2 meg of RAM, 20 meg HD) for $500 to someone who could use it, and who has been a loyal Amiga owner ever since. When I got my 3000 I again basically "gave away" my 2000 to someone else who could make good use of it, rather than asking if C= would "give me anything for supporting them". They have. The *BEST* computer system you can buy, for the least amount of money, and yet still have a (for the most part) completely upward compatible path to expend. So again, are you SERIOUS when you want them to help YOU out, who paid LESS then I did for your system, ONCE, over 5 years ago, with probably NO further purchases of C= equipment in all that time (do you have a C= external drive or a cheaper, 3rd-party drive that didn't put a dime in their pockets?). And I'm not rich, either. When I got my 1000 I was 18, just moved out of my parent house and into an apartment to go to school in the area with just about the highest cost of living outside the LA area (New England), in which I had to support myself. I got my 1000 by using my student loan, and working my A** off at night time jobs. I took out a $3500 loan to buy my 3000 setup (although part of that includes other accessories like a UPS system), and just make it by each month. Please don't say your more hard up than me.) 3) Have you EVER heard of ANY other computer manufacturer offering a *reasonable* trade-in policy? What were the options that IBM gave "Peanut" (PC Jr.) owners? That Apple gave Lisa owners. Certainly NOTHING like what C= offered TWICE to 1000 owners already. And you want MORE? Burnin on the "mistake by the lake" Dave
sharley@isis.cs.du.edu (steve harley) (04/29/91)
in Dave Haynie's article (which i can't quote due to broken software), he says to effect: you can't upgrade 128K or 512K macs. actually, these macs are about as upgradable as an A1000. you can take them just about as far as you can a Plus with SCSI ports, memory, accellerators and display adaptors. (the only thing you can't do is emulate an Amiga ;) -steve harley
GUTEST8@cc1.kuleuven.ac.be (Ives Aerts) (04/29/91)
In article <888.2817f5a9@vger.nsu.edu>, you say: >Commodore will give up to $1500 for _any_ Commodore computer including >the Vic 20, C64, C128, AMIGA 1000, A500, A2000 if you purchase a Amiga >3000 by June 30th. > >Here is the deal. Commodore will give you the following off if you >purchase: > > Amiga 3000 (25mhz/5mb/100mb HD) --- $1500 off > Amiga 3000 (25mhz/2mb/50mb HD) --- $1250 off > Amiga 3000 (16mhz/2mb/50mb HD) --- $1150 off > >Your requirements: > - You must bring in the front cover of your owners manual (not a copy!) > - On that cover the serial number of your CPU must be written > >That's the deal, and in my opinion, a most _excellent_ deal. For about >$1600 you can have a nice new shiney A3000! > >Now, please do me a favor and stop whining. This is essentially the >_third_ time Commodore has given you to upgrade. Please do it this >time...or forever hold your peace! Sure, but when will they remember that a *LARGE* part of their user base lives in Europe ??? I haven't seen any upgrade plan or educational discount here 8^( And no, it's not all a500 users with two floppies and one meg here, there ARE users who are considering to buy or allready bought an a3000. Give them a chance to upgrade too... (anyone from commodore listening ???) BTW, Apple is currently blowing everyone away with at HUGE advertising campaign over here. They have ads on radio and tv, demonstrations on campus etc... I try to stop as many users as possible from buying Apple (converting them to Amiga off course) but I would like a bit more support from Commodore. > -mark= ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ives Aerts | IBM definition SY-34378 GUTEST8@BLEKUL11.BITNET | A signature consists of sequences of gutest8@cc1.kuleuven.ac.be | non-blank characters separated by blanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
xgr39@isuvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) (04/30/91)
In article <91119.103349GUTEST8@cc1.kuleuven.ac.be>, GUTEST8@cc1.kuleuven.ac.be (Ives Aerts) writes: >BTW, Apple is currently blowing everyone away with at HUGE >advertising campaign over here. They have ads on radio and tv, >demonstrations on campus etc... That is not at all unusual. Here at ISU, it is very unusual to pick up the ISU Daily newspaper and NOT find at least one ad from Apple. Apple has been holding a lot of multimedia classes here lately, in addition to the usual mini expos where they push their equipment. > I try to stop as many users >as possible from buying Apple (converting them to Amiga off course) >but I would like a bit more support from Commodore. Take my advice: don't even try. For many years, I would religiously push the Amiga whenever I could, hoping to somedoay get some small amount of support from Commodore. I never got it. I eventually got sick and tired of it, and decided that if Commodore won't support me, then I will not support Commodore. It is Commodore's job to sell their computers, not yours. If they refuse to help even a little by advertizing their computers the way Apple does, then they do not deserve your support. > >> -mark= > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Ives Aerts | IBM definition SY-34378 >GUTEST8@BLEKUL11.BITNET | A signature consists of sequences of >gutest8@cc1.kuleuven.ac.be | non-blank characters separated by blanks. >------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------- / Marc Barrett -MB- | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / / ISU COM S Student | Internet: XGR39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU / ------------------------------------------------------------ \ Wanted for foreign language courses at Iowa State: One \ \ Babel Fish. Willing to pay Top Dollar. If you have one \ \ for sale, please respond to one of the above addresses. \ -------------------------------------------------------------
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (05/01/91)
In article <1991Apr25.234700.16477@ncsu.edu> kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) writes: > In other words, sure TVs and microwaves become "obsolete", at least as > much as the hardware in a computer does. Nonsense. You can still run (display) the latest software (programs, dinners) in your old (microwave, TV). You can't do that with computers. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (05/01/91)
In article <CONSP13.91Apr25095922@bingsunp.bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu> consp13@bingsunp.bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (Marcus Cannava) writes: >I think this is a bit of an unfair comparison, since televisions don't >become "obsolete" one year after purchase. I don't think there's any >other industry that moves as fast as the computer industry. >And, given the fact that today's computer will be severely >underpowered in two years (a short time, really), .... I think you're way off here. The computer industry does move fast, because it is just about all technology driven. However, just because a computer does not go as fast as the latest and greatest thing you can get today, it's far from obselete. It does the same job it did when you bought, and as long as it can still run the software that's available, it is FAR from being obselete. It may no longer be just what you want, but that's because your needs have changed quickly. It's still the same computer. I think computers are a bargain. If you can't afford a the level of technology you want, you can wait a few years and the same money you have today will get you what you wanted. Or you can buy now and update later. If you have any reasonably system, you wind up spending more on things that can travel to the next platform, peripherals and software, than you do on the basic box anyway. Compare this to a car. Automobile technology is too mechanically based to move with the speed of semiconductor technology, but like anything else mechanical, they wear out. In five years, a $20,000 car may be practically worthless. It doesn't do the same things it did when you bought it, and it may be far too expensive to maintain. A computer may change in relative value over the year, but it perfectly maintains its absolute value as a computing device, at least until it's impossible to run new applications on it. The A1000 runs as much Amiga software as an A500 or A2000. >consp13@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu Marcus N. Cannava -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (05/01/91)
In article <1991Apr29.042923.19672@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> sharley@isis.UUCP (steve harley) writes: >in Dave Haynie's article (which i can't quote due to broken software), he >says to effect: you can't upgrade 128K or 512K macs. actually, these macs >are about as upgradable as an A1000. you can take them just about as far >as you can a Plus with SCSI ports, memory, accellerators and display >adaptors. (the only thing you can't do is emulate an Amiga ;) Not really. With an A1000, you can, in a fully supported way, add anything from extra memory to an Zorro compatible card cage with accelerator board. On the Mac, you have your choice of [a] return to Apple for a board swap, or [b] hack in some expansion. Sure, you can get expansion hacks on an A1000 too, but the A1000 supports expansion, blessed by Commodore, while the early Macs do not. In fact, to get the motherboard swap done, Apple made you remove any hacks you installed yourself. >-steve harley -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly) (05/01/91)
In article <1991Apr29.042923.19672@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> sharley@isis.UUCP (steve harley) writes: > >in Dave Haynie's article (which i can't quote due to broken software), he >says to effect: you can't upgrade 128K or 512K macs. actually, these macs >are about as upgradable as an A1000. you can take them just about as far >as you can a Plus with SCSI ports, memory, accellerators and display >adaptors. (the only thing you can't do is emulate an Amiga ;) The price for upgrading a Mac 128k or 512k to a PLUS is roughly equivalent to just buying a new Classic. This is assuming that Apple still supports hardware upgrades on ancient Macs. There are lots of third party upgrades for the A1000. Rick Kelly rmk@rmkhome.UUCP frog!rmkhome!rmk rmk@frog.UUCP
dltaylor@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dan Taylor) (05/03/91)
In <21122@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >but the A1000 supports expansion, blessed by Commodore, while the early Macs >do not. Dave, why would Mac owners care if Commodore blessed their expansion? ;-) Seriously, I built my own ZorroII expansion for my A1000, and then dropped the boards into my new 2500/30. Now I'm planning to some of them, including the A2630, BACK. Try putting NuBUS boards into an original Mac, or Plus. Dan Taylor
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (05/03/91)
In article <928@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM> dltaylor@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dan Taylor) writes: >In <21122@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >>but the A1000 supports expansion, blessed by Commodore, while the early Macs >>do not. >Dave, why would Mac owners care if Commodore blessed their expansion? ;-) They wouldn't. But they would care if Apple did so, methinks. If an expansion mechanism is designed for expansion, it has a tendency to work reliably. If you're counting on processor sockets to support expansion towers, good luck, these may work, or may not; chip sockets are not designed to hold expansion boards. Motherboards change regularly, and the hacked in expansion device that fits today may not fit tomorrow. It may not work in all machines. A defined expansion bus works today and tomorrow, it's on the shoulders of the systems vendor and the card vendor to do things correctly so that this happens. >Seriously, I built my own ZorroII expansion for my A1000, and then dropped >the boards into my new 2500/30. Now I'm planning to some of them, including >the A2630, BACK. Try putting NuBUS boards into an original Mac, or Plus. Exactly. Even today, Apple seems to be increasing the number of different, incompatible expansion options, rather than reducing them. That's not what anyone needs. There are only two reasons to make a machine-specific expansion card. The first generates things like A590s, which, for cost reasons, are mechanically A500-specific. But the electronic design, for all intents and purposes, is Zorro II. You build basic I/O and memory devices for all Amigas based on Zorro II. If Zorro II isn't fast enough, you can go to an A3000 and Zorro III. The other reason for machine-specifics is "it can't be done on the general expansion bus". That's where Coprocessor slots come in; you can, of course, build a 680x0 board for Zorro II or III, but it can't act alone, as the one processor in charge of the system. So we define Coprocessor slots, which, unlike the bus, can change as necessary between machine revisions. This is very specifically for coprocessor expansion only, nothing else. >Dan Taylor -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
sbeagle@kennels.actrix.gen.nz (Sleeping Beagle) (05/07/91)
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > In article <1991Apr25.234700.16477@ncsu.edu> kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (K > > In other words, sure TVs and microwaves become "obsolete", at least as > > much as the hardware in a computer does. > > Nonsense. You can still run (display) the latest software (programs, dinners) > in your old (microwave, TV). You can't do that with computers. Oh neat, I'll just go and find a Beta format copy of 'Lethal Weapon 2' to play in my video. And where's the 8-track recording of Nigel Kennedy playing Vivaldi's Four Seasons? -- Sleeping Beagle (aka Thomas Farmer) sbeagle@kennels.actrix.gen.nz The Kennels Ph. +64-4-796306 (voice) 25 Awarua St, Ngaio, Wellington, New Zealand. "You ain't nothin' but a Hound Dog."