[comp.sys.amiga.advocacy] CDTV & CD-I The Whole Picture

roger_earl@outbound.wimsey.bc.ca (Roger Earl) (04/18/91)

I've been following the progression of both CDTV and CD-I for some time now,
both on the net and in the magazines.  I think its about time to summarize
my opinions.
Both are stand alone CD-Rom Multi-Media units intended for the mass market
of none computer owners.  The specs on both machines are pretty much equally
impressive with a few flaws and a few extras in both machines.  CD-I's early
claims at Full Motion Video were quite a bit premature and Commodore
promises to support Full Motion Video when it becomes a standard regardless.
The real predominant differences between CDTV and CD-I will show in the
applications and the price.

The CDTV is around $1000 (probably a bit higher until supply an demand
balances out) with applications at roughly $60-$100.
The cost of a CD-I is still pretty much unknown (with all kinds of people
quoting all kinds of prices) but the applications are expected to be around
$80-$200.

There is a reason for the difference in price.  It has a lot to do with the
OS that the two Machines are running.  CDTV runs under AmigaDOS 1.3.  CD-I
runs under OS9.  Development systems, programmers, and experience are all
readily available and cheap for the Amiga.  OS9 Development systems and
programmers are both hard to find and very expensive.  There are actually
software houses that are already making applications for CDTV and perhaps
'porting' them over to CD-I if it does well.  When development costs become
apparent maybe a lot of software companies will follow suit.  As far as
games are concerned, virtually no programmers have experience writing games
under OS9.

Finally there is marketing.  Commodore seems to have the right approach in
marketing the CDTV as the new 'home appliance'.  CD-I although not really
marketing yet, has several fans in the computer world who plague the
magazines and the Net with technical references and comments like
'programmers will know what I'm talking about' which are sure to completely
turn off CD-I's own market.  Not to mention CDTV has gotten out first and
with (in my opinion) the better applications, largely due in part to the
wealth of Amiga programming and Multi-Media experience already in existence.

Please can someone repost the list of CDTV applications that have been
released.  I would also be interested in seeing a similiar list for the
CD-I.

****************************************************************************
* "The personal computer market is about the same size as the total potato *
* chip market.  Next year it will be about half the size of the pet food   *
* market and is fast approaching the total worldwide sales of pantyhose"   *
*  -James Finke, Pres., Commodore Int'l Ltd.(1982)-                        *
****************************************************************************
Roger Earl = Usenet: roger_earl@outbound.wimsey.bc.ca = GEnie: R.Earl4

cs326ag@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Loren J. Rittle) (04/18/91)

In article <roger_earl.5081@outbound.wimsey.bc.ca> roger_earl@outbound.wimsey.bc.ca (Roger Earl) writes:
>There is a reason for the difference in price.  It has a lot to do with the
>OS that the two Machines are running.  CDTV runs under AmigaDOS 1.3.  CD-I
>runs under OS9.  Development systems, programmers, and experience are all
>readily available and cheap for the Amiga.  OS9 Development systems and
>programmers are both hard to find and very expensive.  There are actually
>software houses that are already making applications for CDTV and perhaps
>'porting' them over to CD-I if it does well.  When development costs become
>apparent maybe a lot of software companies will follow suit.  As far as
>games are concerned, virtually no programmers have experience writing games
>under OS9.

That is a rather amusing point!  How many Amiga game programers have
experience writing games under AmigaOS?  Humm, most throw the OS away
and beat on the bare hardware (Note, in this message I am not saying
one way or another if this is right... :-).  If you had said, ``game
programers have more experience banging Amiga hardware over CD-I
hardware,'' then I would agree... :-/

This does bring up an important point though (IMHO), Amiga hardware banging
(to get max. performance from the machine) is a well understood, CD-I
banging is not.  This could help one find your conclusion.

Hey, this also brings up another point!  Can game designers (or others,
for that matter) read the CD-ROM without the OS intact?  If not (here's
hoping... :-), then more games might be forced to run under the OS...
Does anyone know how the CD file system works on the CDTV, I mean
does it use the OS to a full extent like most SCSI controllers?

>Roger Earl = Usenet: roger_earl@outbound.wimsey.bc.ca = GEnie: R.Earl4

Loren J. Rittle
l-rittle@uiuc.edu
-- 
``The Amiga continues to amaze me--if I had not been told that this video was
  created using the Amiga and Toaster, I would not have believed it.  Even     
  Allen said, `I think I know how he did most of the effects.' '' - Jim Lange
  Loren J. Rittle  l-rittle@uiuc.edu

kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (04/18/91)

> The real predominant differences between CDTV and CD-I will show in the
> applications and the price.

Disagreement on the price diffs, but yes, absolutely correct on the titles!
Unfortunately -- so far I haven't read a single good review of the first CDTV
apps, here or on CIS.  Reactions have ranged from  "disappointing", to
"the quality and/or animation were pretty bad",  to "if this is the best
then I don't see what the big deal is",  to "I'll wait for some games".  

My fears of a premature introduction (technically and title-wise) giving home
component I-TV a bad name, have apparently come frustratingly true.  Damnation!
I feel like back when the first CD-audio/laserdisc titles were bad tape copies.

> There is a reason for the difference in price.  It has a lot to do with the
> OS that the two Machines are running. [...] Development systems, programmers,
> and experience are all readily available and cheap for the Amiga.  [CD-I]
> development systems and programmers are both hard to find and very expensive.

Sure, there's a demand for CD-I programmers (realtime C types, mostly - code
work is usually done on Suns or other workstations, then cross compiled).
Perhaps you should check out what their salaries are?  I doubt they'd be
embarrassed to leave their contracts behind on a disc ;-).

There also seem to be several other commonly spoken notions:

1. CDTV HAS NICE DEV TOOLS-  True, and they're helpful for CDTV authors. So?
CD-I development work has been under way since _1986_ (ironically, some of the
earliest CD-I tools and demos were from Amiga companies such as EA and Aegis).
We're also going to see hardware and software spinoffs coming from CD-I soon.
So don't be misled.  For almost as far back as when the A1000 first came out,
CD-I studios have been busily creating CDROM I-TV authoring soft/hardware.

2. LET'S JUST SLAP SOME COMPUTER APPS ON DISC-  That isn't I-TV.  That's dull!
Yes, it might work okay for some already-interactive games (with =lots= of work
added on to take advantage of at least some of the extra disc space). But
otherwise, the whole point is to NOT make it like a computer with CDROM drive.
Don't confuse what you'd want on your Amiga, with what people'd want on _CDTV_.
Remember also that virtually all units will only have a joystick control.

3. INEXPENSIVE GEAR IS IMPORTANT-  There are MUCH more important cost factors:
a/v artists, large amounts of data collection and editing, and lots of time.
Are successful commerical movies recorded in lowpaid, one-man garages?  Rarely.
Most CD-I studios are well-backed, and have enormous materiel and experience
resources.  The same companies who help bring you the Discovery Channel and
Sesame Street and other shows, are among the many dozens creating CD-I titles.

Actually, notions #2 and #3 also have a combo side: the NOW EVERYONE AND THEIR
GRANDMA CAN MAKE A PROFESSIONAL COMMERCIAL DISC IN TEN MINUTES one (also known
previously as the I GOT ME A VIDEOCAM - NOW I'M A BIGNAME MOVIE STUDIO dream).
Hopefully it'll be true some day, but that's waaay in the future. best - kevin

es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/19/91)

In article <1991Apr18.161346.3409@ncsu.edu> kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) writes:
>
>Disagreement on the price diffs, but yes, absolutely correct on the titles!
>Unfortunately -- so far I haven't read a single good review of the first CDTV
>apps, here or on CIS.  Reactions have ranged from  "disappointing", to
>"the quality and/or animation were pretty bad",  to "if this is the best
>then I don't see what the big deal is",  to "I'll wait for some games".  
>
	Kevin, the World Atlas, for example, wasn't
"disappointing". It wasn't miraculous, but it was quite nice. It
had stuff that a real World Atlas would never have, such as
native music.
	Also, you have to expect that most of the people around
here are NOT the target audience for CDTV and CD-I. These are
hardened computer users who are used to Shadow of the Beast and
Badge Demos. They KNOW great graphics, and expect it.
	I don't believe that photorealistic graphics are
necessary for CDTV to succeed. I think that HAM digitized images
are close enough that most people will consider them
satisfactory, although certainly CD-I will be better.
	BTW, don't forget that one of the tools for CDTV
development is AmigaVision. That is certainly helpful for
development, especially in terms of time savings.
	-- Ethan

Q: How many Comp Sci majors does it take to change a lightbulb
A: None. It's a hardware problem.

roger_earl@outbound.wimsey.bc.ca (Roger Earl) (04/19/91)

Here we go again.....

kdarling@ncsu.edu writes...
>CD-I development work has been under way since _1986_
(stuff deleted)
>For almost as far bask as when the A1000 first came out, CD-I studios have
>been busily creating CDROM I-TV authoring soft/hardware.

This is exactly why CD-I is gonna cost a fortune.  These studios are estimated
to cost $800,000 for a full CD-I studio.  And they have been developing for 5
years without any profit whatsoever.  Sure we are talking big companies like
Philips who have major resources to fall back on.  But in order to make a
profit from CD-I the prices are going to be steep.

>2. LET'S JUST SLAP SOME COMPUTER APPS ON DISC-  That isn't I-TV.  That's
>dull.

Do you consider Amigavision to be dull ?  If you do your not much of a
Multi-media fan and I can't see why you are even interested in CD-I.
Amigavision is the Multimedia authoring system, CDTV is the multimedia
display platform.

And inexpensive gear IS important.  Sorry, but any business is going to look
at cost first, high-tech second.  With Amiga authoring systems they will get
relatively low cost and powerful high tech.  CD-I is high tech at enormous
cost.  You are hoping and dreaming if you think CD-I will be cheap (to the
developer or the home user).  The developers are already jumping on the CDTV
bandwagon.  So far it looks like applications will be made for the CDTV
first, then ported over to CD-I.

BTW, I give favorable reviews to all of the CDTV applications I have seen so
far.  The World Vista Atlas was great, very intuitive and easy/fun to use.
The same goes for the Dictionary/Encylopedia.  Both were great educational
tools/toys.  The Case of the Cautious Condor looked also very intriguing, and
proved once again (as many other games have in the past) that a good game
doesn't need super-hires-animation to be entertaining.  Also, it looks like
there are a lot of Murder mystery type games being made for CDTV, something
that could never be done so well before.

When CD-I eventually gets released I will take a look at its applications and
review them fairly.  Don't forget, I am a fan of multi-media and I've waited
for CD-I just as long as anyone else, I just hope I can afford it.

                                                __________
                                               |  ______  |
   ________                                    | |      | |
  | ______ |      'But that isn't a fair       | |      | |
  ||      ||       comparison.  People         | |______| |
  ||______||      like the Etch-A-Sketch.'     |          |
  | o    o |                                   | _ _ _ _ _|
  |________|                                  (|__________|\
                                              |     ________)_
Roger Earl                                   [^]   |          |
roger_earl@outbound.wimsey.bc.ca             [_]   |__________|

nwickham@triton.unm.edu (Neal C. Wickham) (04/20/91)

In article <1991Apr18.174928.21079@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes:

>	Also, you have to expect that most of the people around
>here are NOT the target audience for CDTV and CD-I. These are
>hardened computer users who are used to Shadow of the Beast and
>Badge Demos. They KNOW great graphics, and expect it.
>	I don't believe that photorealistic graphics are
>necessary for CDTV to succeed. I think that HAM digitized images
>are close enough that most people will consider them
>satisfactory, although certainly CD-I will be better.
>	-- Ethan
>

One of the most important things that Kevin mentioned, in my opinion, is that
CD-I has some Hollywood professionals behind it.  Now who are we talking 
about?  People who understand the human psyche better than most psychologists
and who've proved that they do by their success. ...people who advertise 
and sell floor wax to women who have no-wax floors.  ...people who made Ron
Reagan the "Teflon President."  These people will fill their CDs with all kinds
of subliminal content and will design specific 'entertainment' for specific
personallity types.  These people know what they're doing and they are good
at what they do.  If CD-I has backing from Hollywood profesionals and CDTV
does not, CDTV will not have a prayer. 

You know, I really wonder about C= sometimes.  Yes, I think that it is possible
for the slick marketing people at Apple to pull the Desk Top Video market rug
out from under Amiga's feet.  I've always assumed that C= was a big company
with true 'profesionals' who understood the wicked ways of the modern world
but geese.  Just where is West Chester Pa. anyway?

                                         NCW