mitroo@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Varun Mitroo) (02/12/91)
In article <12013@helios.TAMU.EDU> n177ac@tamuts.tamu.edu (Daryl Biberdorf) writes: >In article <1991Feb11.005426.24174@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >> >>That's fine for getting Amiga users to buy them, but that isn't going to >>get them any new market. For someone who wants a UNIX box, why would they >>get an A3000UX instead of a NeXT (or for that matter a SPARCstation)? >>-- > >3000UX over the NeXT: >- slots. the only NeXT models with slots cost at least $2k more than > the base 3000UX. The base 3000UX is only $500 more than the base > NeXTstation. Compare this with $1.5 - $2k for the base cube over > the 3000UX. You can do some things with NeXT's SCSI, but a lot of > it isn't possible without really bad kludges. > I think people are missing the point of the workstation market. Imagine having a lab full of unix boxes. They are all connected on an ethernet network, have a small hard drive to boot and swap, and get most other stuff through the network. WHY would someone need each box to have 5 slots inside? The answer: you don't. Lots of computer companies have realized this. Sun has the SPARCstation SLC, a diskless computer that is only usable on a network. NeXT now has the NeXTstation - small hard drive, no expansion slots, fast cpu, built-in ethernet. Now imagine a lab full of A3000UX. Every one of them has empty slots - maybe one is used for ethernet. All these slots are doing nothing, except driving the cost of the machine up. NeXT realized this with the cube, and very efficiently pared down both the hardware and software: no expansion slots but lots of internal memory and hard drive capability, no Lisp (removed from the included software), no Mathematica (except for higher ed.) - software licensing can be expensive! If you need expansion or need a server, buy a cube. It's wonderful that each and every one of the Amiga3000UX can run AmigaDos, and each could have many serial ports, and each could have a Video Toaster, but of what use are these for unix boxes? The important thing is that they are well-integrated, have nice clear displays, and are FAST. The 3000UX does make a good unix box, but there is no reason to drive up its cost with those unnecessary options: expansion slots, AmigaDos, etc. Maybe Commodore should realize this and come out with an AMIGAstation: 100 meg drive, high res monitor, ethernet, no expansion. They could probably shave off over $1000 from the price and have a nice fast integrated unix box. Varun Mitroo mitroo@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu
rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (02/12/91)
In article <1991Feb12.053906.10441@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu> mitroo@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Varun Mitroo) writes: >In article <12013@helios.TAMU.EDU> n177ac@tamuts.tamu.edu (Daryl Biberdorf) writes: >>In article <1991Feb11.005426.24174@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >>> >>>That's fine for getting Amiga users to buy them, but that isn't going to >>>get them any new market. For someone who wants a UNIX box, why would they >>>get an A3000UX instead of a NeXT (or for that matter a SPARCstation)? >>>-- >> >>3000UX over the NeXT: >>- slots. the only NeXT models with slots cost at least $2k more than >> the base 3000UX. The base 3000UX is only $500 more than the base >> NeXTstation. Compare this with $1.5 - $2k for the base cube over >> the 3000UX. You can do some things with NeXT's SCSI, but a lot of >> it isn't possible without really bad kludges. >> >I think people are missing the point of the workstation market. Imagine >having a lab full of unix boxes. They are all connected on an ethernet >network, have a small hard drive to boot and swap, and get most other stuff >through the network. WHY would someone need each box to have 5 slots inside? > >The answer: you don't. Lots of computer companies have realized this. Sun >has the SPARCstation SLC, a diskless computer that is only usable on a >network. NeXT now has the NeXTstation - small hard drive, no expansion slots, >fast cpu, built-in ethernet. > >Now imagine a lab full of A3000UX. Every one of them has empty slots - maybe >one is used for ethernet. All these slots are doing nothing, except driving >the cost of the machine up. NeXT realized this with the cube, and very >efficiently pared down both the hardware and software: no expansion slots but >lots of internal memory and hard drive capability, no Lisp (removed from the >included software), no Mathematica (except for higher ed.) - software licensing >can be expensive! If you need expansion or need a server, buy a cube. > >It's wonderful that each and every one of the Amiga3000UX can run AmigaDos, >and each could have many serial ports, and each could have a Video Toaster, >but of what use are these for unix boxes? The important thing is that they >are well-integrated, have nice clear displays, and are FAST. > >The 3000UX does make a good unix box, but there is no reason to drive up its >cost with those unnecessary options: expansion slots, AmigaDos, etc. Maybe >Commodore should realize this and come out with an AMIGAstation: 100 meg drive, >high res monitor, ethernet, no expansion. They could probably shave off over >$1000 from the price and have a nice fast integrated unix box. > > Varun Mitroo > mitroo@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu > One point your missing. UNIX isn't what it used to be. UNIX is slowly becoming the operating system of choice for home computers. UNIX at home, not in the computer lab, or on a $7000 ethernet linkup. UNIX used to be for the big-multiuser mainframe systems, now PCs are starting to run it, and now Unix has been ported to virtually every platform. a Diskless computer won't work in the home, what the hell are you supposed to hook it up to? the telephone? A fileserver at 2400 bps? What about all the students and/or UNIX owners at home? Then again, this is just a sly way NeXT users can hid the 'real' price of a working NeXT system. Why not make a minislab? Make the NeXT diskless, with only 2mb of ram, and no DSP. Why, they could sell an 040 system for $2000 . This overlooks the real cost of the system. To get a NeXT up to real performance, you need to network it with a bunch of lab computers and terminal/file servers. These terminal/file servers aren't free, they cost $$$, and I think they should be included in the price. Otherwise, why not just sell NeXT keyboards for $1000 and tell NeXT users if they want to use their computers, walk into a computer lab and 'jack in.'
dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave P. Schaumann) (02/13/91)
In article <1991Feb12.053906.10441@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu> mitroo@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Varun Mitroo) writes: >[...] >I think people are missing the point of the workstation market. Imagine >having a lab full of unix boxes. They are all connected on an ethernet >network, have a small hard drive to boot and swap, and get most other stuff >through the network. WHY would someone need each box to have 5 slots inside? > >The answer: you don't. Lots of computer companies have realized this. >[...] Hmmm. Today in my algorithm analysis class, the professor related an interesting anecdote: when the IBM 360 he was using was upgraded to a 370, the prevailing attitude was "why do we need to study algorithm efficiency any more? We'll never use all this computing power!" The moral being, no matter how fast your machine, how big your memory, sooner or later your application will outgrow it. Not so long ago, people were using simple terminals to interface with a mainframe. Now, it's not uncommon to use personal computers or even work stations to interface with a central processor. I submit that it is dead wrong to believe that what works today will work tomorrow, and next month, and next year, and forever. This belief has been put forward time and again, and shown utterly wrong each time. Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it. > Varun Mitroo > mitroo@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu -- Dave Schaumann | DANGER: Access holes may tear easily. Use of the access | holes for lifting or carrying may result in damage to the dave@cs.arizona.edu | carton and subsequent injury to the user.
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (02/13/91)
This sounds like a nice idea. Call it the Amiga 1500 (half a 3000 like the 1000 is half a 2000). Put a 3000 motherboard in a pizza box. The only problem is that there's no ether on the motherboard, so you'd have to plug at least one card in. Perhaps an ether card that plugs directly in where the slots go in the 3000... -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
mike@maths.tcd.ie (MIKE ROGERS) (02/14/91)
In article <1991Feb13.020224.22818@sugar.hackercorp.com>, peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: >This sounds like a nice idea. Call it the Amiga 1500 (half a 3000 like the Already got that over here. The only problem is that the official A1500 is a B2000, rebadged, with twin floppys installed and the 1084SD. Bundled with Sim City, Dpaint 2, Populous, and some other 'midrange' s/ware. No HD controller or flickerfixer, etc. Just the twin drives. Costs equivalent $3000 here. -- Mike Rogers,Box 6,Regent Hse,## Beren was the son of Bereg the son of Etcetera. TCD,EIRE. <mike@maths.tcd.ie>## Caryion "Adnausium" ###############################DON'T MISS TRINCON400 6th, 7th, 8th FEBRUARY 1992 And she wore Black Contact Lenses when you said you liked her eyes......Toasties
davewt@NCoast.ORG (David Wright) (02/16/91)
In article <1991Feb12.053906.10441@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu> mitroo@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Varun Mitroo) writes: >Now imagine a lab full of A3000UX. Every one of them has empty slots - maybe >one is used for ethernet. All these slots are doing nothing, except driving >the cost of the machine up. NeXT realized this with the cube, and very >efficiently pared down both the hardware and software: no expansion slots but >lots of internal memory and hard drive capability, no Lisp (removed from the >included software), no Mathematica (except for higher ed.) - software licensing >can be expensive! If you need expansion or need a server, buy a cube. This is silly. The "slots" on the 3000 do not add to the price basically at all. The "slots" are on a daughterboard, which is removeable, and has little (if any) support circuitry. I suppose it might be possible to run without ANY slots, but why? When the board the slots are on is basically dirt cheap, and any hard drive will cost your at least 10 times as much, if not more, why leave it out? In fact, if someone wanted a REALLY expandable 3000, they could design up a new case, and replace the "dumb" board with the slots with one with MORE slots (say to add 8 or 9 ISA slots instead of the 2 you get on a normal 3000). > >It's wonderful that each and every one of the Amiga3000UX can run AmigaDos, >and each could have many serial ports, and each could have a Video Toaster, >but of what use are these for unix boxes? The important thing is that they >are well-integrated, have nice clear displays, and are FAST. Well that's good, because the 3000 DOES and IS. > >The 3000UX does make a good unix box, but there is no reason to drive up its >cost with those unnecessary options: expansion slots, AmigaDos, etc. Maybe >Commodore should realize this and come out with an AMIGAstation: 100 meg drive, >high res monitor, ethernet, no expansion. They could probably shave off over >$1000 from the price and have a nice fast integrated unix box. And AmigaDOS does not add anything to the cost. The 3000UX is exactly the same hardware wise as the 3000, so you would have to do something extra to REMOVE AmigaDOS compatibility, which would ADD to the cost. Now if they came out with a 500 with an '030 on it, the same RAM expansion, and the video board built in, that might cost less, if you could get people to buy it. Those wonderfull SparcStations you talk about cost as much as a 3000, which CAN be expanded. Dave
mitroo@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Varun Mitroo) (02/17/91)
>In article <1991Feb12.053906.10441@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu> mitroo@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Varun Mitroo) writes: >>Now imagine a lab full of A3000UX. Every one of them has empty slots - maybe >>one is used for ethernet. All these slots are doing nothing, except driving >>the cost of the machine up. NeXT realized this with the cube, and very >>efficiently pared down both the hardware and software: no expansion slots but >>lots of internal memory and hard drive capability, no Lisp (removed from the >>included software), no Mathematica (except for higher ed.) - software licensing >>can be expensive! If you need expansion or need a server, buy a cube. > This is silly. The "slots" on the 3000 do not add to the price >basically at all. The "slots" are on a daughterboard, which is removeable, >and has little (if any) support circuitry. I suppose it might be possible to >run without ANY slots, but why? When the board the slots are on is basically >dirt cheap, and any hard drive will cost your at least 10 times as much, >if not more, why leave it out? In fact, if someone wanted a REALLY >expandable 3000, they could design up a new case, and replace the "dumb" >board with the slots with one with MORE slots (say to add 8 or 9 ISA >slots instead of the 2 you get on a normal 3000). You tell me - why is the 2000 so much more expesive than the 500? They have the same processor and custom chips, the same video and monitor. What's different? The SLOTS. Of course, unless you are saying that commodore is making a huge profit on the 2000s by doubling its price over a 500... >> >>It's wonderful that each and every one of the Amiga3000UX can run AmigaDos, >>and each could have many serial ports, and each could have a Video Toaster, >>but of what use are these for unix boxes? The important thing is that they >>are well-integrated, have nice clear displays, and are FAST. > Well that's good, because the 3000 DOES and IS. No argument from me. >> >>The 3000UX does make a good unix box, but there is no reason to drive up its >>cost with those unnecessary options: expansion slots, AmigaDos, etc. Maybe >>Commodore should realize this and come out with an AMIGAstation: 100 meg drive >>high res monitor, ethernet, no expansion. They could probably shave off over >>$1000 from the price and have a nice fast integrated unix box. > And AmigaDOS does not add anything to the cost. The 3000UX is >exactly the same hardware wise as the 3000, so you would have to do something >extra to REMOVE AmigaDOS compatibility, which would ADD to the cost. Unix on the amiga does not use the blitter at all. What I am implying is that commodore's unix takes out much of the originality of the Amiga. After all, the only thing that makes the amiga different from any other 680x0 box is its custom chips and its operating system. With unix, commodore has phased out both of these. New orders are not going to come from unix people who have "AmigaDos compatibility" as one of the checkmarks. Commodore is only going to sell the 3000UX to people who already have amigas and want unix - a small market. Seriously, WHAT is there on the 3000UX to intice new customers? Yes, it is a good unix box, but IT COSTS MUCH MORE THAN OTHER COMPUTERS. There is no excuse for commodore to be just releasing hardware when competitors already have computers out that are faster ('040), more memory (8 megs vs. 4), and are cheaper. If they want any market share, they will have to cut costs. Commodore must realize - are they going to sell amigas that run unix or sell a unix computer. If the latter, then AmigaDos and its custom chips are extra. Maybe if they could run AmigaDos as a task under unix, there would be more incentive to buy a 3000UX. > Now if they came out with a 500 with an '030 on it, the same RAM >expansion, and the video board built in, that might cost less, if you You are contradicting yourself. Why should commodore usea 500 for this? Because it is cheaper than the 2000. But why is it cheaper? Because it has NO SLOTS. Therefore, slots=money. Keep in mind this also includes the cost for a larger case, bus controller chip, bigger power supply, etc. >could get people to buy it. Those wonderfull SparcStations you talk >about cost as much as a 3000, which CAN be expanded. > Sun must have done something right to have such a huge installed base. Marketing hype can only go so far. SPARCstations are at least twice as fast as the 3000UX. Varun Mitroo mitroo@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu
cs326ag@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Loren J. Rittle) (02/17/91)
Varun Mitroo writes: > Sun must have done something right to have such a huge installed base. > Marketing hype can only go so far. SPARCstations are at least twice as fast > as the 3000UX. OK, now I'm interested - just how big is the >huge< installed base Sun has. Is it over 2 million. I think not! Loren J. Rittle -- ``NewTek stated that the Toaster *would not* be made to directly support the Mac, at this point Sculley stormed out of the booth...'' -A scene at the recent MacExpo. Gee, you wouldn't think that an Apple Exec would be so worried about one little Amiga Device... Loren J. Rittle l-rittle@uiuc.edu
ptoper@obelix (Andy Nagy) (02/19/91)
In article <1991Feb16.180604.10623@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu>, mitroo@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Varun Mitroo) writes: > >In article <1991Feb12.053906.10441@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu> mitroo@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Varun Mitroo) writes: [stuff deleted] > > Now if they came out with a 500 with an '030 on it, the same RAM > >expansion, and the video board built in, that might cost less, if you > > You are contradicting yourself. Why should commodore usea 500 for this? > Because it is cheaper than the 2000. But why is it cheaper? Because it > has NO SLOTS. Therefore, slots=money. Keep in mind this also includes the > cost for a larger case, bus controller chip, bigger power supply, etc. > > >could get people to buy it. Those wonderfull SparcStations you talk > >about cost as much as a 3000, which CAN be expanded. > > > Sun must have done something right to have such a huge installed base. > Marketing hype can only go so far. SPARCstations are at least twice as fast > as the 3000UX. I believe the higher cost of the A2000 is not merely the addition of the slots. You need to take into consideration the cost of a power supply (that is 3 times the power rating of the A500), a bigger, sturdier case, a separate keyboard etc. These are not cheap if you want them to be durable and reliable. > Varun Mitroo > mitroo@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andy Nagy (ptoper@asterix.gaul.csd.uwo.ca) The University of Western Ontario, London, Canada "Dee do do do, dee da da da, thats all I want to say to you" -- The Police
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (02/19/91)
In article <2290@ria.ccs.uwo.ca> ptoper@obelix (Andy Nagy) writes: > I believe the higher cost of the A2000 is not merely the addition of >the slots. You need to take into consideration the cost of a power supply >(that is 3 times the power rating of the A500), a bigger, sturdier case, >a separate keyboard etc. Exactly. The A2000 supply is actually almost five times the rating of the A500 supply (200W vs. 35W). Then there's the larger case size necessary to house additional cards. The fan necessary to cool them. The Buster chip, various buffers, and bypass/termination components necessary to create the expansion bus. The extra PCB board space necessary for the expansion bus. And, of course, the connectors themselves. >Andy Nagy (ptoper@asterix.gaul.csd.uwo.ca) -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "What works for me might work for you" -Jimmy Buffett
n368bq@tamuts.tamu.edu (Raoul Rodriguez) (02/19/91)
Andy Nagy said something tot the effect.... >the 200 costs more becasue of nifty stuff like slots bigger power >supply, studier case and detachable keyboard ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Umm, you may not know it, but the keyboards in the 500 and the 2000 are EXACTLY the same (the 2000 keyboards even have the holes for the power and drive lights), and I am willing to bet a sizable amount of cash that the 3000 keyboards are exactly the same as well, the only differance is that the 2000 (and 3000) keyboards have a longer wire and a $.50 plastic case, and that is the ONLY differance. Well, the connector inside the 500 is differant, but the wires are the same number and color, so for all intentiaonal purposes they are exactly the same.... (The 500 has two extra wires for the power and drive lights though) Raoul "My 500 Has a Detachable Keyboard" Rodriguez n368bq@tamuts.tamu.edu Standard Disclaimers Apply (Within)
dlb5404@tamuts.tamu.edu (Daryl Biberdorf) (02/20/91)
In article <12349@helios.TAMU.EDU> n368bq@tamuts.tamu.edu (Raoul Rodriguez) writes: >Umm, you may not know it, but the keyboards in the 500 and the 2000 are >EXACTLY the same (the 2000 keyboards even have the holes for the power and >drive lights), and I am willing to bet a sizable amount of cash that the 3000 >keyboards are exactly the same as well, the only differance is that the >2000 (and 3000) keyboards have a longer wire and a $.50 plastic case, >and that is the ONLY differance. The 500 and 2000 may have the same *layout* but they keyboards sure don't feel the same. My 500's keyboard is sort of mushy feeling while the 2000 and 3000 have a nice tactile 'click' (not really a click, but it's there). Maybe Commodore is using different suppliers for the 2000 versus the 500 keyboards? Maybe they're giving both suppliers the same specs, which might explain the drive and power lights. Purely speculation, but those keyboards are *not* the same. --Daryl Biberdorf, dlb5404@{rigel,tamuts}.tamu.edu Texas A&M University
ptoper@obelix (Andy Nagy) (02/20/91)
In article <19110@cbmvax.commodore.com>, daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: > In article <2290@ria.ccs.uwo.ca> ptoper@obelix (Andy Nagy) writes: > > > I believe the higher cost of the A2000 is not merely the addition of > >the slots. You need to take into consideration the cost of a power supply > >(that is 3 times the power rating of the A500), a bigger, sturdier case, > >a separate keyboard etc. > > Exactly. The A2000 supply is actually almost five times the rating of the > A500 supply (200W vs. 35W). Then there's the larger case size necessary to > house additional cards. The fan necessary to cool them. The Buster chip, > various buffers, and bypass/termination components necessary to create the > expansion bus. The extra PCB board space necessary for the expansion bus. > And, of course, the connectors themselves. > > >Andy Nagy (ptoper@asterix.gaul.csd.uwo.ca) > Thanks Dave. In reference to the memory map you posted earlier: When C-A comes out with the super-duper-whiz-bang custom chip set (you know the one with elevendy billion colours and forty million game ports (for BLAZEMONGER, natch)) where does it go (in the memory map)? Also, just out of curiosity, what were the design decisions you used to come up with this arrangement, ie were there any non-obvious constraints, trade- offs etc? As a hypothetical question, would it be possible to implement the ZorroIII buss using another processor ie 386, 466, i860, 32032(?) etc? (Sorry 'bout posting this here, but I've been trying to followup using xrn, and the system is being uncooperative.) > -- > Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" > {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy > "What works for me might work for you" -Jimmy Buffett ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andy Nagy (ptoper@asterix.gaul.csd.uwo.ca) The University of Western Ontario, London, Canada "Dee do do do, dee da da da, thats all I want to say to you" -- The Police
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (02/21/91)
In article <2311@ria.ccs.uwo.ca> ptoper@obelix (Andy Nagy) writes: > In reference to the memory map you posted earlier: > When C-A comes out with the super-duper-whiz-bang custom chip set (you >know the one with elevendy billion colours and forty million game ports (for >BLAZEMONGER, natch)) where does it go (in the memory map)? Well, there are those places marked RESERVED. We have lots of them on a 32 bit machine, but of course not quite so many on a 16/24 bit machine (eg, 68000). The actual location of anything new depends on what it needs. There is more space available, for example, for chip registers, in the standard 68000 I/O region. But you would be hard pressed to find a good place for another 2MB of Chip RAM, at least not without eating into Zorro II space, on a 68000 machine. > Also, just out of curiosity, what were the design decisions you used >to come up with this arrangement, ie were there any non-obvious constraints, >trade-offs etc? The main tradeoff started out as, do we enforce our original 32 bit addressing constraint by locating motherboard memory above 68000 space, or do we cut the folks who did it wrong yet another break. Once we took in the possibility of 16MB rather than 4MB, though, there was no choice to make. We had to have the extra space. > As a hypothetical question, would it be possible to implement >the ZorroIII bus using another processor ie 386, 466, i860, 32032(?) etc? Sure thing. While a few aspects of the Zorro III protocol uses 680x0 conventions; function codes, a bit of the vectored interrupt protocol, and byte ordering. But its mainly CPU independent, and it's even possible that some other CPU would hook up to Zorro III a little easier than the 68030. I didn't design Zorro III to make the life of the bus controller designer in a 68030 system easy (since it was me doing the design), but to do what I wanted to do in a 32 bit bus, within the constraints of the system, anyway. I suppose an i860 would be a little inefficient, with its 64 bit bus, but even that can be solved (the i860 would always want at least a two word burst cycle). Zorro III cycles are 32 bit only (ignoring Zorro II compatibility cycles), so just about any 32 bit CPU could run on it without a real difficult bus interface necessary. >Andy Nagy (ptoper@asterix.gaul.csd.uwo.ca) -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "What works for me might work for you" -Jimmy Buffett
pwb@newt.phys.unsw.OZ.AU (Paul W. Brooks) (02/21/91)
In article <2290@ria.ccs.uwo.ca>, ptoper@obelix (Andy Nagy) writes: > [much stuff about A500s, A2000s and slots deleted] > > I believe the higher cost of the A2000 is not merely the addition of > the slots. You need to take into consideration the cost of a power supply > (that is 3 times the power rating of the A500), a bigger, sturdier case, > a separate > keyboard etc. These are not cheap if you want them to be durable and reliable. > > Andy Nagy (ptoper@asterix.gaul.csd.uwo.ca) > The University of Western Ontario, London, Canada > "Dee do do do, dee da da da, thats all I want to say to you" -- The Police Durable and reliable?? Commodore? How many times have you had to replace your mouse? Does anyone know of a viable 3rd party Amiga-compatible mouse? How many of you are still using the original mouse that came with your system! Paul Brooks |Internet: pwb@newt.phys.unsw.edu.au Uni. of N.S.W. |If you have trouble sleeping, try lying on the end of Kensington NSW 2033| your bed. With a little luck you'll drop off. AUSTRALIA | - Mark Twain.
gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) (02/22/91)
From article <1107@usage.csd.unsw.oz.au>, by pwb@newt.phys.unsw.OZ.AU (Paul W. Brooks): > > Durable and reliable?? Commodore? Yup. I've never had one problem with any C= hardware caused by abuse. And I tend to be pretty rough..... So does UPS... And it always gets to me in one piece. Always. > How many times have you had to replace your mouse? Not once... I will soon, but that's becuase I want an optical... Not to mention my powerglove adapter...... joystick, OR mouse... :) > Does anyone know of a viable 3rd party Amiga-compatible mouse? > How many of you are still using the original mouse that came with your > system! > After a year and 3/4, I'm proud to be one. Maybe you just don't know the do's and don'ts of computer care, but I've never had a problem... At least not one that wasn't solved by my cleaning it... -- gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu | Amigas, Amigas everywhere, but not a one can think. ----Gregory R Block---- | Where's an AI when you need one? ________________________| A Mac, by any other name, would smell like a lawsuit Roses are red, Violets are blue: Go buy a Mac, and you'll be screwed too...
david@kessner.denver.co.us (David Kessner) (02/22/91)
In article <1107@usage.csd.unsw.oz.au> pwb@newt.phys.unsw.OZ.AU (Paul W. Brooks) writes: >Durable and reliable?? Commodore? >How many times have you had to replace your mouse? >Does anyone know of a viable 3rd party Amiga-compatible mouse? >How many of you are still using the original mouse that came with your >system! > >Paul Brooks |Internet: pwb@newt.phys.unsw.edu.au The 'BUS MICE' for the IBM CLONE market will work on an Amiga. You need a DB-9 connector to 8 pin mimi-din adapter, however (I have the adapter diagrams here somewhere, it's just wires and connectors). This will enable you to use the multitude of PC mice available. The only drawback is that PC BUS MICE (as opposed to serial mice) come with an internal card for the PC, which you will not use on the Amiga-- this adds about $15 to the cost of the mouse. Perhapse someone could call Logitech and tell them about the possible market here... - David K -- David Kessner - david@kessner.denver.co.us | do { 1135 Fairfax, Denver CO 80220 (303) 377-1801 (p.m.) | . . . This is my system so I can say any damn thing I want! | } while( jones);
hychejw@infonode.ingr.com (Jeff W. Hyche) (02/22/91)
pwb@newt.phys.unsw.OZ.AU (Paul W. Brooks) writes: >Durable and reliable?? Commodore? >How many times have you had to replace your mouse? >Does anyone know of a viable 3rd party Amiga-compatible mouse? >How many of you are still using the original mouse that came with your >system! Yo! I'm still on my first Amiga mouse, have been for going on two years now with no problems that a little mouse cleaning coundn't handle. The one that came with my system. This is also my 2nd Amiga 500, my first one was distroyed in a house fire last, not Commodores fault. I also had no problems with its mouse. In fact after the fire we recovered the mother board, cleaned it up with soap and water and pluged it in and it came up waiting for workbeanch. I clean my mouse on a regular bases and I can assume it gonna work as long as I contine to take care of it. Commodore is like any other big company, and is gonna put out a few bad units. Thats why you have a warranty. -- // Jeff Hyche There can be only one! \\ // Usenet: hychejw@infonode.ingr.com \X/ Freenet: ap255@po.CWRU.Edu
ptoper@obelix (Andy Nagy) (02/23/91)
In article <19154@cbmvax.commodore.com>, daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: > In article <2311@ria.ccs.uwo.ca> ptoper@obelix (Andy Nagy) writes: > > > In reference to the memory map you posted earlier: > > > When C-A comes out with the super-duper-whiz-bang custom chip set (you > >know the one with elevendy billion colours and forty million game ports (for > >BLAZEMONGER, natch)) where does it go (in the memory map)? > > Well, there are those places marked RESERVED. [stuff deleted ...] I take this to mean that the details will not be fleshed out until later when C-A actually starts to design a new chipset? (It's tempting to ask When, How and What...) > > Also, just out of curiosity, what were the design decisions you used > >to come up with this arrangement, ie were there any non-obvious constraints, > >trade-offs etc? > > The main tradeoff started out as, do we enforce our original 32 bit addressing > constraint by locating motherboard memory above 68000 space, or do we cut the > folks who did it wrong yet another break. Once we took in the possibility > of 16MB rather than 4MB, though, there was no choice to make. We had to have > the extra space. Huh? I think I missed something here. (What do you mean by "did it wrong", and 16MB vs 4MB ?) [more stuff deleted] Would you please explain again about having both the 68030 and the 68040 working concurrently would work. I got the impression that it was only a matter of software for each processor to actually make this idea fly. Would it involve a lot of ugly coding? (Sorry to ask again, but I was a little foggy about what you were saying the first time.) > Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" > {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy > "What works for me might work for you" -Jimmy Buffett ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andy Nagy (ptoper@asterix.gaul.csd.uwo.ca) The University of Western Ontario, London, Canada "Dee do do do, dee da da da, thats all I want to say to you" -- The Police
ptoper@obelix (Andy Nagy) (02/23/91)
In article <1107@usage.csd.unsw.oz.au>, pwb@newt.phys.unsw.OZ.AU (Paul W. Brooks) writes: > In article <2290@ria.ccs.uwo.ca>, ptoper@obelix (Andy Nagy) writes: > > > [much stuff about A500s, A2000s and slots deleted] > > > > I believe the higher cost of the A2000 is not merely the addition of > > the slots. You need to take into consideration the cost of a power supply > > (that is 3 times the power rating of the A500), a bigger, sturdier case, > > a separate > > keyboard etc. These are not cheap if you want them to be durable and reliable. > Durable and reliable?? Commodore? > How many times have you had to replace your mouse? > Does anyone know of a viable 3rd party Amiga-compatible mouse? > How many of you are still using the original mouse that came with your > system! I was only talking about the case, keyboard, power supply (and connectors etc, thanks Dave). Replacing a broken/worn out mouse is annoying no doubt, however having the power supply (for instance) go bad and have it take the motherboard and/or peripherals with it is more than just annoying. Please note that I did not make reference to the quality of anyone's product, but a generalization. If you infered this from my message than I appologize. Also note that I have never had to replace my mouse (I had a pet goldfish that died) because unfortunately I am still saving up to buy one (computer that is). > > Paul Brooks |Internet: pwb@newt.phys.unsw.edu.au > Uni. of N.S.W. |If you have trouble sleeping, try lying on the end of > Kensington NSW 2033| your bed. With a little luck you'll drop off. > AUSTRALIA | - Mark Twain. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andy Nagy (ptoper@asterix.gaul.csd.uwo.ca) The University of Western Ontario, London, Canada "Dee do do do, dee da da da, thats all I want to say to you" -- The Police
dougp@pcs0.physics.ucsb.edu (02/24/91)
-Message-Text-Follows- >From article <1107@usage.csd.unsw.oz.au>, by pwb@newt.phys.unsw.OZ.AU (Paul W. Brooks): >> >> Durable and reliable?? Commodore? >> How many times have you had to replace your mouse? My mouse has been working fine since I bought my A1000 on Jan 25 1986. The only thing that has not held up well is the color of the plastic case, it is beginning to yellow. Douglas Peale
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (02/24/91)
pwb@newt.phys.unsw.OZ.AU (Paul W. Brooks) writes: > Durable and reliable?? Commodore? Actually not that bad. My very nearly six year old A1000 is still running all original equipment, my (purchased used) A2000 is also doing just fine, even running on edge for the last two years. > How many times have you had to replace your mouse? Never yet, though rolling mice are a nuisance, I have to take them apart for thorough cleaning every two to four weeks. > Does anyone know of a viable 3rd party Amiga-compatible mouse? Lots of folks like the Boing! optical mouse, but it's a bit pricy. > How many of you are still using the original mouse that came with your > system! Yep both machines on their orignal mice. Biggest danger seems to be the little teflon feet wearing off, plus I had a teen aged kid drop one and pop an encoder wheel's axle out of the plastic bushing once, but I was able to disassemble the mouse and just pop the axel back in place with no more problems. My biggest gripe has been the (onging) use of cheesy monitors with known hardware problems, and the second worst the dust magnet keyboards that fill up with cat furze and then get stuck keys, but as a system, the Amigas have been very capable of 12-16 hour a day use and 24 hour a day power-on. Kent, the man from xanth. <xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us>
jra1@ra.MsState.Edu (Mephisto) (02/24/91)
Speaking of reliabilty and the amiga... my mouse still works to. I don't mind the yellow color that much. I don't see how you can call the amiga unreliable. I have had 2 of them and have never had any problems. It's probably just the Commodore image getting in the way. I hope that someday that image will go away. Jeff
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (02/26/91)
In article <2352@ria.ccs.uwo.ca> ptoper@obelix (Andy Nagy) writes: >In article <19154@cbmvax.commodore.com>, daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com >(Dave Haynie) writes: >> In article <2311@ria.ccs.uwo.ca> ptoper@obelix (Andy Nagy) writes: >>> Also, just out of curiosity, what were the design decisions you used >> >to come up with this arrangement, >> The main tradeoff started out as, do we enforce our original 32 bit >> addressing constraint by locating motherboard memory above 68000 space, or >> do we cut the folks who did it wrong yet another break. Once we took in >> the possibility of 16MB rather than 4MB, though, there was no choice to >> make. We had to have the extra space. > Huh? I think I missed something here. (What do you mean by "did it >wrong", and 16MB vs 4MB ?) "Did it wrong" == People who, intentionally or unintentionally, broke our original rule that all Amiga code had to run in a full 32 bit address space. The 68000 hardware gives you only 24 bits of actual address. Some lazy hacker types in the early days of 68000 coding figured they could stuff some useful stuff in the extra 8 bits of address pointers. Knowing of this practice, the original pre-A1000 ROM Kernel Manuals made this practice strictly forbidden. But this didn't stop everyone from doing it anyway. Since the A2500 systems only cames with 4MB of RAM, there was space in the 68000/24-bit memory map for this extra memory. Since these systems didn't use any non-24 bit memory, such illegal programs could still work on them. If we had only supported 4MB of memory on the A3000 motherboard, we might have done something similar. Since we were able to specify a memory device that would support either 4MB or 16MB on the motherboard, it was obvious that we could not even consider locating this memory in the 24 bit address space. So such illegal programs break on the A3000. >Would you please explain again about having both the 68030 and the 68040 >working concurrently would work. I got the impression that it was only >a matter of software for each processor to actually make this idea fly. Given the design of the A3000, and an appropriate 68040 board, this is just "a simple matter of software". However, that hardly makes it simple software. For example, Exec isn't necessarily going to be happy at all dealing with multiple CPUs; just because a routine is capable of being multi-threaded, does not mean it can be mult-processed. For example, it can lock out any context switches during critical sections of code by using Disable() or Forbid(). But it can't lock out an alternate processor the same way; you have to assume both processors are, in reality, running at the same time. So tightly coupled symmetric multiprocessing, the thing most everyone thinks of when you say "both processors run at once", requires lots of OS rethinking. Even for UNIX. Once you decide that the whole OS runs on only one of the processors, you can simplify things greatly. But that will limit the usefulness of the second processor. >Andy Nagy (ptoper@asterix.gaul.csd.uwo.ca) -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "What works for me might work for you" -Jimmy Buffett
amiga@uhccux.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Boing) (02/26/91)
In article <1107@usage.csd.unsw.oz.au> pwb@newt.phys.unsw.OZ.AU (Paul W. Brooks) writes:
)Durable and reliable?? Commodore?
)How many times have you had to replace your mouse?
)Does anyone know of a viable 3rd party Amiga-compatible mouse?
)How many of you are still using the original mouse that came with your
)system!
I've heard a number of complaints about commodore's quality control. All
I can say is I've never had a problem more serious than slightly sticky
keys on my vintage, pre-EHB mode, 1985 A1000. My mouse works fine. It
does seem a little heavier than the mouse on my friend's 2000, but I kind
of like that. It feels a little more solid. There are probably a number
third party mice out there. The one that seems to get the most praise
is the Boing optical mouse. I think it is the same one Sun uses.pwb@newt.phys.unsw.OZ.AU (Paul W. Brooks) (02/26/91)
In article <11656@uhccux.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu>, amiga@uhccux.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Boing) writes: > In article <1107@usage.csd.unsw.oz.au> pwb@newt.phys.unsw.OZ.AU (Paul W. Brooks) ** THATS ME! **writes: > > )Durable and reliable?? Commodore? > )How many times have you had to replace your mouse? > )Does anyone know of a viable 3rd party Amiga-compatible mouse? > )How many of you are still using the original mouse that came with your > )system! > > I've heard a number of complaints about commodore's quality control. All > I can say is I've never had a problem more serious than slightly sticky > keys on my vintage, pre-EHB mode, 1985 A1000. My mouse works fine. It > does seem a little heavier than the mouse on my friend's 2000, but I kind > of like that. It feels a little more solid. There are probably a number > third party mice out there. The one that seems to get the most praise > is the Boing optical mouse. I think it is the same one Sun uses. The above message is an extremely typical reply to my original message, as I'm sure most can remember! ++++++++++++++++++++I GIVE IN! +++++++++++++++++++ The Ami mouse, like all Amiga equipment, can survive being dropped from 3 stories onto solid concrete, and not even get a r/w error on the disk access it was doing at the time 8-) 8-) 8-) I originally posted that message for a number of reasons - I use a mouse mat I wash it frequently, but still get blobs of what seems to bear a remarkable resemblance to chewing gum on the rollers. While I am at a loss to figure out where it comes from, I can scrape it off, and do so about once a month. Also both mouse buttons are intermittant (which can make playing BLAZEMONGER II rather difficult :-). I offer the following excuse for my earlier outburst, and humbly promise to pull my head in for ever more: Since I was a poor struggling student I bought my A500 second hand from a snotty-nosed little kid who had lost the original WB disks and most of the manuals. In hindsight, he may well have been tougher on the mouse than falling from 3 stories etc etc....! Unfortunately, BOING mouses are fairly expensive down here, and we don't have nearly the range of products easily available you are used to. I suppose I'll have to go out and get a job (sigh). Cheers Net, Paul Brooks |Internet: pwb@newt.phys.unsw.edu.au Uni. of N.S.W. |If you have trouble sleeping, try lying on the end of Kensington NSW 2033| your bed. With a little luck you'll drop off. AUSTRALIA | - Mark Twain.
dltaylor@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dan Taylor) (02/27/91)
I, for one, am still using the mouse that came with my 4+ year old A1000. Even with my electronic abuse ( I built my own wire-wrapped A2000-compatible expansion chassis ), the only things that have died are the original floppy, and the parallel port (one bit is stuck on). I bought a 2500/30, for (someday?) running UNIX, but I plan to keep the A1000 to run the brain-damaged games (brain-damaged hacks) that dis-like my 2091 and '030. I've got no kick against C-A reliablity, at least. My own opinions, etc. Dan Taylor
davewt@NCoast.ORG (David Wright) (02/28/91)
In article <1107@usage.csd.unsw.oz.au> pwb@newt.phys.unsw.OZ.AU (Paul W. Brooks) writes: >Durable and reliable?? Commodore? >How many times have you had to replace your mouse? Not once. >Does anyone know of a viable 3rd party Amiga-compatible mouse? I know of at least THREE *3* mice for the Amiga, and at least TWO *2* commercial track-balls, which are also made by well-known PC mouse/ trackball suppliers. >How many of you are still using the original mouse that came with your >system! I am still using the mouse that came with my 1000 (one of the original 256k had to be expanded to 512k early '85 units) on my *3000* (like the feel of it better than the new mice), although I do use a track ball I made myself sometimes as well. Maybe you abuse your mice??? >Paul Brooks |Internet: pwb@newt.phys.unsw.edu.au >Uni. of N.S.W. |If you have trouble sleeping, try lying on the end of >Kensington NSW 2033| your bed. With a little luck you'll drop off. >AUSTRALIA | - Mark Twain. Dave
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (02/28/91)
The mouse on my Amiga 1000 worked for 4 years before giving up the ghost. The mice on my Amiga 3000 have had flakey buttons from the beginning. Micro switches *can't* be so expensive they'd add significantly to the manufacturing cost... Either they don't make them like they used to, or it's up to Murphy whether you get a good mouse or not. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
dewolfe@ug.cs.dal.ca (Anarchy for Peace) (03/01/91)
In article <1991Feb28.130808.8816@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >The mouse on my Amiga 1000 worked for 4 years before giving up the ghost. > >The mice on my Amiga 3000 have had flakey buttons from the beginning. Micro >switches *can't* be so expensive they'd add significantly to the manufacturing >cost... > >Either they don't make them like they used to, or it's up to Murphy whether >you get a good mouse or not. As I have posted before to comp.sys.amiga.misc, the A3000 now ships with a new and improved mouse. It uses nice microswitches and has a real good feel. It looks alot different but still keeps the bulge in the palm mentality (which I think is important, the Amiga mouse is the only mouse I can use my whole hand on) I don't know about you guys in the states, but we have them in Canada. >-- >Peter da Silva. `-_-' ><peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>. -- Colin DeWolfe dewolfe@ug.cs.dal.ca
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (03/01/91)
In article <1991Feb28.202508.19273@cs.dal.ca> dewolfe@ug.cs.dal.ca (Anarchy for Peace) writes: > As I have posted before to comp.sys.amiga.misc, the A3000 now ships with a > new and improved mouse. About 6 months too late for me. While they were redesigning it, did they put the trackball near the front end of the mouse to maximize control, or is it still in the bulge in the palm to maximize the "drawing with a rock" effect? -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
dewolfe@ug.cs.dal.ca (Anarchy for Peace) (03/02/91)
In article <1991Mar1.111838.1879@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >In article <1991Feb28.202508.19273@cs.dal.ca> dewolfe@ug.cs.dal.ca (Anarchy for Peace) writes: >> As I have posted before to comp.sys.amiga.misc, the A3000 now ships with a >> new and improved mouse. > >About 6 months too late for me. > >While they were redesigning it, did they put the trackball near the front >end of the mouse to maximize control, or is it still in the bulge in the >palm to maximize the "drawing with a rock" effect? The ball is just forward of middle now. I don't have one myself, I got my 3000 in Sept., but the one I used was at the dealer and it felt real nice. Almost as nice as my Boing! IMHO better than the MacII mice... Also, the pointer really FLIES under accleration. >-- >Peter da Silva. `-_-' ><peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>. -- Colin DeWolfe dewolfe@ug.cs.dal.ca
MAELLIOT@MTUS5.BITNET (03/18/91)
Mice, mice, mice...
I have a friend who put a A500 in an IBM XT case. While making
adjustments and shielding the power supply, he inadvertantly shorted
110v AC to his video port. (screw was too long) When he hit the
power switch, there were sparks and smoke. The only thing that fried
was the RGB video port/chip. After fixing the short, he continued to
use his machine with the composite BW output. Everything else including
the hard drive and memory card survived.
If a computer only loses one chip when 110v AC is shorted through
the motherboard, I count that as a sturdy computer.
Mike Elliott
This is what happens when you make a mistake with electrical hardware.
This was a simple accident. Do NOT attempt this with your machine.
*Include standard legal disclaimer*melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/10/91)
In article <1991Feb16.203857.29907@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> cs326ag@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Loren J. Rittle) writes: Varun Mitroo writes: > Sun must have done something right to have such a huge installed base. > Marketing hype can only go so far. SPARCstations are at least twice as fast > as the 3000UX. OK, now I'm interested - just how big is the >huge< installed base Sun has. Is it over 2 million. I think not! How many Amigas are out there MINUS the A500? Sun is the standard in workstations. They shipped more than twice as many machines as their nearest competitor last quarter. -Mike