judge@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us (rory toma) (04/24/91)
I was thinking about the Atari laserprinter theother dayand came up with an interesting idea... Would it be possible to produce a cheap laserprinter (Postscript) that used both the memory and processor of it's host machine? On a 3000, it could use the'030 on an '030/'040 equipped machine. Or am I just dreaming? rory
dltaylor@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dan Taylor) (04/26/91)
In <R5Xw12w162w@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us> judge@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us (rory toma) writes: >Would it be possible to produce a cheap laserprinter (Postscript) that >used both the memory and processor of it's host machine? I'll say before the NeXToids. Theirs does just that. There are also interface boards that drop into PC's, but have their own CPU and RAM. They interprest the PS and dump it to the printer. My question is: why burn system CPU bandwith on a mutlitasking machine, since the cost of PS on a laser with it's own CPU already is so small. Dan
icsu8053@attila.cs.montana.edu (Craig Pratt) (04/26/91)
In article <R5Xw12w162w@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us> judge@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us (rory toma) writes: >I was thinking about the Atari laserprinter theother dayand came up with >an interesting idea... > >Would it be possible to produce a cheap laserprinter (Postscript) that >used both the memory and processor of it's host machine? On a 3000, it >could use the'030 on an '030/'040 equipped machine. Or am I just >dreaming? > >rory This is exactly what the NeXT does. The 400 DPI Next laser printer is a simple device which recieves raster information from the NeXT. True, this does take up CPU time and RAM, but I can imagine upgrades are much easier and there aren't any real RAM problems thanks to virtual memory. There also aren't any font compatability problems since the display and printer use the same font resources. The price is also nice: ~$1300 educational and ~$2000 retail. This is one of the beauties of using PostScript as a imaging model. BTW, I don't think the NeXT sends the printer the raw image. It's probably send with some sort of encoding, perhaps run-length encoding. I also understand that there are now drivers for other raster printers such as desk jets and dot matrix printers, as well. They would have to be quite a bit slower due to the above and the fact that they would probably have to be connected to the serial port. Chalk another up for NeXT. -- Craig Pratt icsu8053@cs.montana.edu Montana State University, Bozeman MT Craig.Pratt@msu3.oscs.montana.edu "It's a Buddist meditation technique; it focuses your aggression. The monks used to do it before they went into battle.", Otto, _A_Fish_Called_Wanda_
cs326ag@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Loren J. Rittle) (04/26/91)
In article <3867@dali> icsu8053@attila.cs.montana.edu (Craig Pratt) writes: >This is exactly what the NeXT does. The 400 DPI Next laser printer is a >simple device which recieves raster information from the NeXT. True, this >does take up CPU time and RAM, but I can imagine upgrades are much easier >and there aren't any real RAM problems thanks to virtual memory. There >also aren't any font compatability problems since the display and printer This is also exactly what I do with Post 1.5 and my HP DeskJet printer on my Amiga... >use the same font resources. The price is also nice: ~$1300 educational >and ~$2000 retail. This is one of the beauties of using PostScript as >a imaging model. No, that is the beauty of being able to use the same CPU to render PostScript for the computer and the printer... Humm, with HP laser printers (that also work with Post, of course) being under a grand retail, you have to wonder how come NeXT charges so much for their PostScript-less printers... >BTW, I don't think the NeXT sends the printer the raw image. It's >probably send with some sort of encoding, perhaps run-length encoding. > >I also understand that there are now drivers for other raster printers >such as desk jets and dot matrix printers, as well. They would have to >be quite a bit slower due to the above and the fact that they would >probably have to be connected to the serial port. Chalk another up for >NeXT. I guess that means we need to chalk one up of the Amiga too... > Craig Pratt icsu8053@cs.montana.edu Loren J. Rittle -- ``The Amiga continues to amaze me--if I had not been told that this video was created using the Amiga and Toaster, I would not have believed it. Even Allen said, `I think I know how he did most of the effects.' '' - Jim Lange Loren J. Rittle l-rittle@uiuc.edu
swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) (04/26/91)
In article <3867@dali> icsu8053@attila.cs.montana.edu (Craig Pratt) writes: >In article <R5Xw12w162w@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us> judge@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us (rory toma) writes: [...] >>Would it be possible to produce a cheap laserprinter (Postscript) that >>used both the memory and processor of it's host machine? On a 3000, it >>could use the'030 on an '030/'040 equipped machine. Or am I just >>dreaming? >> >>rory > >This is exactly what the NeXT does. The 400 DPI Next laser printer is a [...] >I also understand that there are now drivers for other raster printers >such as desk jets and dot matrix printers, as well. They would have to >be quite a bit slower due to the above and the fact that they would >probably have to be connected to the serial port. Chalk another up for >NeXT. This is an opportunity for a great product from Commodore, and A3000 users would love it. Commodore should come out with a combination laser/fileserver with very little memory on board. It would have space for two 1/2-height 5-1/4" devices (ie a large, cheap harddrive and a tape drive). One partition on the harddrive would be the laser device partition. When your postscript job prints out it would send its output to this partition via SCSI (although it would think it was talking to the printer itself). The printer engine would read the raster image directly from the disk as it was printing. Advantages: o A really big, fast harddrive at 5-1/4" prices (cheaper than what you can stick into your A3000 3-1/2" slot), and a place to stick a tape drive, in an attractive case that does not just take up space as a drive-box (that is, you need a printer anyway, so having your big tape and drive compartments inside your printer would make sense ergonomically). o The cost of the laser printer is really just the engine and paper transport mechanism, plus the SCSI port that drives the engine. The case and power supply costs are shared by the harddrive (you would have to buy a case & power supply for an external drive anyway). o The large bitmaps would seem to transfer quickly, because of the high speed of the A3000 SCSI port. An integrated compression scheme might improve this factor even more. o Commodore supported postscript->raster-image conversion in the A3000. o File-server approach would make it desireable for sites with several machines. The number of machines would be limited, though. Disadvantages: o Careful design would be required to ensure that the engine could not be 'disconnected' from the drive by the host during a printing operation. o The drive space would need a fan to keep cool outside air flowing through it (laser printers can get warm inside). o The total cost would be more than a harddrive alone, and more than a laser alone, so it not be cheaper than, say a laserjet. But the performance/cost ratio would be quite high. And it should be cheaper than a typical postscript printer (which costs ~$3000). _. --Steve ._||__ DISCLAIMER: All opinions are my own. Warren v\ *| ---------------------------------------------- V {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; swarren@convex.com --
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/27/91)
In article <912@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM> dltaylor@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dan Taylor) writes:
I'll say before the NeXToids. Theirs does just that. There are
also interface boards that drop into PC's, but have their own CPU
and RAM. They interprest the PS and dump it to the printer.
My question is: why burn system CPU bandwith on a mutlitasking machine,
since the cost of PS on a laser with it's own CPU already is so small.
If you put Postscript in the laser printer, then you have to pay
royalties to Adobe for that too. The NeXT laser printer only costs
$1795($1295 educational), and it has costs that much for the past
year.
-Mikejudge@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us (rory toma) (04/27/91)
dltaylor@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dan Taylor) writes: > In <R5Xw12w162w@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us> judge@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us > > > >Would it be possible to produce a cheap laserprinter (Postscript) that > >used both the memory and processor of it's host machine? > > I'll say before the NeXToids. Theirs does just that. There are > also interface boards that drop into PC's, but have their own CPU > and RAM. They interprest the PS and dump it to the printer. > > My question is: why burn system CPU bandwith on a mutlitasking machine, > since the cost of PS on a laser with it's own CPU already is so small. > > Dan OK, what about using the '030 on the 3000 when the '040 come out for the printer - as well as other system resources. rory
ltf@ncmicro.lonestar.org (Lance Franklin) (04/28/91)
In article <912@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM> dltaylor@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dan Taylor) writes: }In <R5Xw12w162w@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us> judge@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us (rory toma) writes: }>Would it be possible to produce a cheap laserprinter (Postscript) that }>used both the memory and processor of it's host machine? } }I'll say before the NeXToids. Theirs does just that. There are }also interface boards that drop into PC's, but have their own CPU }and RAM. They interprest the PS and dump it to the printer. } }My question is: why burn system CPU bandwith on a mutlitasking machine, }since the cost of PS on a laser with it's own CPU already is so small. Talk about Deja-Vu....this same discussion took place when Atari came out with their laserprinter that used the ST's memory and processor to do the dirty work. It's not exactly a new idea. And your last question was exactly what Amiga users asked back then too. Now, when PS lasers are even cheaper than they were then, it's an even better question. Especially in a networked environment, where several users might utilize the same printer...would YOU want to be the guy with the NeXT laser hooked to your computer when the guy in the next room submits his 200 page print job? Not to mention when you want to hook the printer up to your PC Portable to print that document for that neat piece of PD software you got for it. Stand-alone Laser-printers have at least one other advantage...you don't have to find another NeXT user to sell it to if you ever need to get rid of it. :-) Lance -- Lance T. Franklin +----------------------------------------------+ (ltf@ncmicro.lonestar.org) | "You want I should bop you with this here | NC Microproducts, Inc. | Lollipop?!?" The Fat Fury | Richardson, Texas +----------------------------------------------+
masaru@media-lab.media.mit.edu.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Masaru Sugai) (04/28/91)
In article <1991Apr26.134120.18412@convex.com> swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) writes: >Commodore should come out with a combination laser/fileserver with very little >memory on board. It would have space for two 1/2-height 5-1/4" devices (ie a >large, cheap harddrive and a tape drive). One partition on the harddrive >would be the laser device partition. When your postscript job prints out it >would send its output to this partition via SCSI (although it would think it >was talking to the printer itself). The printer engine would read the raster >image directly from the disk as it was printing. Really ? I don't like all-in-one peripheral device like 'tower of printer':) I don't see any demands for such integrated I/O device, and 3000T could be a better platform to start with. I understand that all virtue of Amiga comes from its memory/bus architecture and it makes Amiga the champ of video and emulation among personal computers. IMHO, C= should concentrate on high performance controller boards boosting the power of existing Amigas. For example, I hope SCSI-2 controller (A2092?), as it supports standard command sets for various i/o devices such as printer and scanner. I guess we can take advantage of such controller in a few years as we enjoy huge SCSI HD right now. BTW, I don't mind future controllers bypass CHIP memory entirely in favor of performance. I opted for A3000/16 by 'maximum 50MHz clock speed' on Zorro III. Another issue is data compression, but it seems to be a bit further though. On the software side, we could expect lots of things now that Post 1.6 has released with source codes. Some guy referred previewer in greyscale to cope with low resolution on monitor. With ECS, we can have the dimension (1008x800) on A2024 similar to NeXT, and more (up to 2MB) in 16 greylevel or CMYK. I would like such PostScript previewer making usage of 040. > _. >--Steve ._||__ DISCLAIMER: All opinions are my own. > Warren v\ *| ---------------------------------------------- > V {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; swarren@convex.com >-- -- -- Masaru Sugai:Use disclaimer. CIS 72050,2141:NeXT + A3000 = money-eater NEC Corporation:sugai@ccs.mt.nec.co.jp DORMANT:hardwired logic,machine language MIT R.Affiliate:masaru@media-lab.media.mit.edu: "Silicon on Sapphire" by CLASH
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (04/28/91)
In article <R5Xw12w162w@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us> judge@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us (rory toma) writes: > Would it be possible to produce a cheap laserprinter (Postscript) that > used both the memory and processor of it's host machine? On a 3000, it > could use the'030 on an '030/'040 equipped machine. Or am I just > dreaming? That's what the NeXT laserprinter does. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) (04/29/91)
From article <1991Apr28.130636.14159@sugar.hackercorp.com>, by peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva): > In article <R5Xw12w162w@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us> judge@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us (rory toma) writes: >> Would it be possible to produce a cheap laserprinter (Postscript) that >> used both the memory and processor of it's host machine? On a 3000, it >> could use the'030 on an '030/'040 equipped machine. Or am I just >> dreaming? > > That's what the NeXT laserprinter does. Now if only we can find a way to integrate Post into the system... :) We've got source... -- All opinions are my own, and not those of my employer. Why? He doesn't know I'm doing this. -Wubba
judge@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us (rory toma) (04/30/91)
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > In article <R5Xw12w162w@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us> judge@alchemy.tcnet.ithac > > Would it be possible to produce a cheap laserprinter (Postscript) that > > used both the memory and processor of it's host machine? On a 3000, it > > could use the'030 on an '030/'040 equipped machine. Or am I just > > dreaming? > > That's what the NeXT laserprinter does. > -- > Peter da Silva. `-_-' > <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>. I didn't know that the NextStation had an '030 in it as well as the '040, it doesn't say so in the ads... rory
dltaylor@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dan Taylor) (04/30/91)
In <dm3G_=iz1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >If you put Postscript in the laser printer, then you have to pay >royalties to Adobe for that too. The NeXT laser printer only costs >$1795($1295 educational), and it has costs that much for the past >year. I paid my royalties, by buying a licensed cartridge for my IIP. I know that you have 400 DPI, and that's nice. But, I'd rather the CPU be able to do something else, while I print. It's just a personal choice. If I had wanted to, I could have used a PD interpreter. Dan Taylor
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/30/91)
In article <921@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM> dltaylor@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dan Taylor) writes:
I paid my royalties, by buying a licensed cartridge for my IIP. I know
that you have 400 DPI, and that's nice. But, I'd rather the CPU be
able to do something else, while I print. It's just a personal choice.
If I had wanted to, I could have used a PD interpreter.
Ever heard of multitasking? Then you know that the CPU can do
something else while it's printing. Wow, someone just printed while I
was typing this message.
And before you mention it, NeXT changed the priority under 2.0 so that
printing has a lower priority. Isn't multitasking neat?
-Mikees1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (04/30/91)
In article <.29G1$1-1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <921@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM> dltaylor@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dan Taylor) writes: > > I paid my royalties, by buying a licensed cartridge for my IIP. I know > that you have 400 DPI, and that's nice. But, I'd rather the CPU be > able to do something else, while I print. It's just a personal choice. > If I had wanted to, I could have used a PD interpreter. > >Ever heard of multitasking? Then you know that the CPU can do >something else while it's printing. Wow, someone just printed while I >was typing this message. > >And before you mention it, NeXT changed the priority under 2.0 so that >printing has a lower priority. Isn't multitasking neat? > >-Mike Mike, come on, you KNOW what Dan meant as well as I do. Although it was more dramatic on the 68030, even on the 68040 converting PostScript to a 400dpi bitmap is time consuming. That time comes out of something. If it is a high priority process then all your other tasks take a speed hit. If it is a low priority process then the printing takes longer. In the end, if you have the CPU in the printer things are faster all around. They are also more expensive all around. Dan simply said he prefers having the two CPUs. This NeXT/Amiga flamage is just getting really stupid on both sides. -- Ethan "Brain! Brain! What is Brain?"
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/30/91)
In article <1991Apr30.044318.31422@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes:
Mike, come on, you KNOW what Dan meant as well as I do.
Although it was more dramatic on the 68030, even on the 68040
converting PostScript to a 400dpi bitmap is time consuming. That
time comes out of something. If it is a high priority process
then all your other tasks take a speed hit. If it is a low
priority process then the printing takes longer.
In the end, if you have the CPU in the printer things are
faster all around. They are also more expensive all around. Dan
simply said he prefers having the two CPUs. This NeXT/Amiga
flamage is just getting really stupid on both sides.
-- Ethan
I don't think I was that out of hand. Which do you think prints
faster. A Mac IIsi and a an Apple LaserWriter(pick a brand) or a
NeXTstation with a NeXT laserprinter. Now which is going to cost
more?
-Mikenguyent@balboa.eng.uci.edu (Thien Nguyen) (04/30/91)
In article <.29G1$1-1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >Ever heard of multitasking? Then you know that the CPU can do >something else while it's printing. Wow, someone just printed while I >was typing this message. > >And before you mention it, NeXT changed the priority under 2.0 so that >printing has a lower priority. Isn't multitasking neat? > >-Mike Mike, There is an article about Next and Steve Jobs in the latest issue of either Forbes or Fortune, I can't remember. It's the April 29, 1991 issue. The article didn't sound too good for the future of Next!!!
lasteve@aix01.aix.rpi.edu (Steven D Borrelli) (04/30/91)
In article <281D0613.26690@orion.oac.uci.edu> nguyent@balboa.eng.uci.edu (Thien Nguyen) writes: >In article <.29G1$1-1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >> >>Ever heard of multitasking? Then you know that the CPU can do >>something else while it's printing. Wow, someone just printed while I >>was typing this message. >> >>And before you mention it, NeXT changed the priority under 2.0 so that >>printing has a lower priority. Isn't multitasking neat? >> >>-Mike > > >Mike, >There is an article about Next and Steve Jobs in the latest issue of >either Forbes or Fortune, I can't remember. It's the April 29, 1991 issue. >The article didn't sound too good for the future of Next!!! This flame war is getting pretty lame. If you guys are all bored, there's a mac/toaster thing going on over comp.sys.mac.misc. Unless Mike can find some way to link the toaster to the NeXT, I think he'll be out of that one. As for the forbes article, it seems that the (okay, biased) folks over at comp.sys.next felt that the author was full of it and not very technically literate. I don't think they put a lot of substance behind it. caveat reader, I guess. BTW, is it just me or am I getting the opinion tha *some* of you want to see the NeXT fail? Maybe I'm just oblivious to something. Steve lasteve@rpi.edu
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/30/91)
In article <281D0613.26690@orion.oac.uci.edu> nguyent@balboa.eng.uci.edu (Thien Nguyen) writes:
Mike,
There is an article about Next and Steve Jobs in the latest issue of
either Forbes or Fortune, I can't remember. It's the April 29, 1991 issue.
The article didn't sound too good for the future of Next!!!
I was looking for that article, I heard they really did a job on NeXT.
NeXT did get mentioned in passing in they latest Business Week(one on
gadgets getting complex) in the feature article. One article or issue
of a magazine does not make or break a company.
-Mikemelling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/30/91)
In article <=vzgn2@rpi.edu> lasteve@aix01.aix.rpi.edu (Steven D Borrelli) writes:
This flame war is getting pretty lame. If you guys are all bored, there's a mac/toaster thing going on over comp.sys.mac.misc. Unless Mike can find some way to link the toaster to the NeXT, I think he'll be out of that one.
All this talk about the Toaster!! It's neat, but how many people own one?
As for the forbes article, it seems that the (okay, biased) folks over at comp.sys.next felt that the author was full of it and not very technically literate. I don't think they put a lot of substance behind it. caveat reader, I guess.
What did it say? The previous poster just said that it doesn't look
good for NeXT but he didn't say why?
BTW, is it just me or am I getting the opinion tha *some* of you want to see the NeXT fail? Maybe I'm just oblivious to something.
Of course they do. They feel very threatened. It's only going to get
worse. Wait until the NeXTDimension Board is actually released! Then
NeXT year there will be a 30-50 mip(maybe faster) NeXT in the $10,000
range. NeXT is on the move. Soon we'll have the best games in the
business too :-).
-Mikemelling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (04/30/91)
In article <1Zy711w162w@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us> judge@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us (rory toma) writes:
I didn't know that the NextStation had an '030 in it as well as the '040,
it doesn't say so in the ads...
It only has one 68040.
-Mikeu3364521@ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (Lou Cavallo) (04/30/91)
G'day, I'm not singling out Steve's commentary other than as an example of the ideas for a cheap laser printer coupled with an NIL (Not In Laser) Post Script to bitmap rendering engine ... Steve Warren (swarren@convex.com ) writes: [...] > But the performance/cost ratio would be quite high. And it should be > cheaper than a typical postscript printer (which costs ~$3000). my only thought is that the time to be developing these ideas into some products has probably come and gone...now that it seems that PostScript printer prices are beginning to come down in price. Such products would be cheaper for a while but I am guessing only for a short while, your mileage may vary (always wanted to say that). I thought I'd seen that *really* cheapo PostScript boxes go for about a US$1000 price level. No? .... This whole thread reminds me of a proposal (vapourware?) by various de- velopers to produce a s/w h/w combo for bitmaps in RAM & then dump them to the dumb (cheap) laser printer. If I haven't forgotten totally this wasn't a PostScript rendering engine and I think I read about it around the time the A2500's were announced! .... What about some ideas for a new thread on cheap hires colour printing ? (I'm ignorant) so is there a way that CBM could get into giving the Ami some cheap(ish) high quality DTV and DTP hardcopy? yours truly, Lou Cavallo. PS: Steve, personally I kind of like your scheme for a fast(er) SCSI HD and CPU based print server. Indeed I wouldn't be surprised if there are high end standalone laser printers that allow SCSI data paths for print data from a PC.
gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) (04/30/91)
From article <=vzgn2@rpi.edu>, by lasteve@aix01.aix.rpi.edu (Steven D Borrelli): > In article <281D0613.26690@orion.oac.uci.edu> nguyent@balboa.eng.uci.edu (Thien Nguyen) writes: >>In article <.29G1$1-1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >>> >>>And before you mention it, NeXT changed the priority under 2.0 so that >>>printing has a lower priority. Isn't multitasking neat? >>> >>>-Mike Firstly, I thought this was hillarious. So every time you want to change the priority of someting as trivial as a printing task, you need to update the os??? :) > This flame war is getting pretty lame. If you guys are all bored, there's a mac/toaster thing going on over comp.sys.mac.misc. Unless Mike can find some way to link the toaster to the NeXT, I think he'll be out of that one. He'll find a way. After all, this is Mike we're talking about here :) > BTW, is it just me or am I getting the opinion tha *some* of you want to see the NeXT fail? Maybe I'm just oblivious to something. Call me a cynic, or perhaps sadistic, but I'd like to see Mike left out in the cold when NeXT goes under... :) And we all know that when the Revolution comes, HE'LL be the first up against the wall... :D > lasteve@rpi.edu -- All opinions are my own, and not those of my employer. Why? He doesn't know I'm doing this. -Wubba
gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) (04/30/91)
From article <z$Gndb-1@cs.psu.edu>, by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): > > Of course they do. They feel very threatened. It's only going to get > worse. Wait until the NeXTDimension Board is actually released! Then > NeXT year there will be a 30-50 mip(maybe faster) NeXT in the $10,000 > range. NeXT is on the move. Soon we'll have the best games in the > business too :-). > > -Mike Okay, so wait for the 6 other boards coming out for the Amiga that will do more than the toaster. And NONE of which are that expensive except maybe for one, but that one will have built in TBCs... Can you say that you have as much support? The best games... Ya. Sure. And tell me when they finally port Tetris, that cpu-eating graphical monster. -- All opinions are my own, and not those of my employer. Why? He doesn't know I'm doing this. -Wubba
swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) (05/01/91)
In article <1991Apr30.232919.1969@ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au> u3364521@ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (Lou Cavallo) writes: >G'day, > [...] >PS: Steve, personally I kind of like your scheme for a fast(er) SCSI HD >and CPU based print server. Indeed I wouldn't be surprised if there are >high end standalone laser printers that allow SCSI data paths for print >data from a PC. Thanks. I admit, I was a little dissappointed by the other response, which basically said, "that's a bad idea." If he really thought it was a bad idea, I wish he would have taken the time to say why. I listed the reasons I thought it was a good idea point by point. It would have been quite easy to refute me if he had a good argument. Regards, _. --Steve ._||__ DISCLAIMER: All opinions are my own. Warren v\ *| ---------------------------------------------- V {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; swarren@convex.com --
greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) (05/01/91)
In article <.29G1$1-1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >And before you mention it, NeXT changed the priority under 2.0 so that >printing has a lower priority. Isn't multitasking neat? What? You weren't able to change the priority yourself? Hmmm... You could do that with any of the PD PostScript interpreters on the Amiga. You could do that with _any_ program on the Amiga at any time. Isn't multitasking neat? ;) >-Mike Greg -- Greg Harp |"I was there to match my intellect on national TV, | against a plumber and an architect, both with a PhD." greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu| -- "I Lost on Jeopardy," Weird Al Yankovic
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/01/91)
In article <48164@ut-emx.uucp> greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) writes:
What? You weren't able to change the priority yourself? Hmmm... You
could do that with any of the PD PostScript interpreters on the Amiga.
You could do that with _any_ program on the Amiga at any time.
I guess you could have 'nice'ed the job after it started, but that is
a pain, and beyond the average user's abilities.
-Mikempierce@ewu.UUCP (Mathew Pierce) (05/01/91)
In article <z$Gndb-1@cs.psu.edu>, melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > > In article <=vzgn2@rpi.edu> lasteve@aix01.aix.rpi.edu (Steven D Borrelli) writes: > [Stuff deleted] > > BTW, is it just me or am I getting the opinion tha *some* of you want to see the NeXT fail? Maybe I'm just oblivious to something. > > Of course they do. They feel very threatened. It's only going to get > worse. Wait until the NeXTDimension Board is actually released! Then > NeXT year there will be a 30-50 mip(maybe faster) NeXT in the $10,000 > range. NeXT is on the move. Soon we'll have the best games in the > business too :-). > > -Mike Mike, I do not feel the least bit threatened. I propose that the nExt is not all that bad of a machine, as far as machines go. I mean, no one box is perfect for all, the Amiga included. I propose that the messages posted by yourself are inflammatory and irritating for the most part, and that this network is so impersonal that people feel safe writing inflammatory and generally irritating remarks back. So if people seem to want to see nExt fail, I get the feeling that it is more of a thing that if it fails, it will be the ultimate irritating thing that could happen to an irritating guy like you seem to portray yourself to be ( I bet your not, but this network lets you be irritating with no reprocussions). I'm not saying stop, or even that I'm correct, these are just my observations, so keep it up, you'll never make it into my kill file, I like reading the controversy(sp). I just wish that I could make my garden dev/null, because then I could do mv /vol/usenet/news/comp/sys/amiga/advocay dev/null and have a crop of prize winning crop of vegetables (neighbors would complain about the smell though) :^)
dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (05/01/91)
In article <dm3G_=iz1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <912@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM> dltaylor@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dan Taylor) writes: > > > I'll say before the NeXToids. Theirs does just that. There are > also interface boards that drop into PC's, but have their own CPU > and RAM. They interprest the PS and dump it to the printer. > > My question is: why burn system CPU bandwith on a mutlitasking machine, > since the cost of PS on a laser with it's own CPU already is so small. > >If you put Postscript in the laser printer, then you have to pay >royalties to Adobe for that too. The NeXT laser printer only costs >$1795($1295 educational), and it has costs that much for the past ^^^^ It only costs $1795? What a bargain, if your rich! There are laser printers for HALF that price! >year. > >-Mike (: << reversed smiley face -- David Tiberio SUNY Stony Brook 2-3481 AMIGA DDD-MEN Tomas Arce Any students from SUNY Oswego? Please let me know! :) Un ragazzo di Casalbordino, Italia.
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/02/91)
In article <1991May1.152922.25632@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes: > >If you put Postscript in the laser printer, then you have to pay >royalties to Adobe for that too. The NeXT laser printer only costs >$1795($1295 educational), and it has costs that much for the past ^^^^ It only costs $1795? What a bargain, if your rich! There are laser printers for HALF that price! >year. > >-Mike (: << reversed smiley face That print Adobe Postscript? Apple has $400 Laser Printers. -Mike
dltaylor@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dan Taylor) (05/02/91)
In <.29G1$1-1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >Ever heard of multitasking? Oh, I have multi-tasking, too. But I have more useful work for MY CPU, than printing SOMEONE ELSE's (or even my own) files. So, I let my printer figure out the PS, while my CPU compiles, edits, and does file transfers (along with background game calculations). Just seems a LOT more logical to let the printer do its own work, than waste system CPU bandwidth doing it. Yeah, they lowered the priority, but it shouldn't even be happening. Dan Taylor /* My opinions, not NCR's. */
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (05/02/91)
In article <v!5G9cm_1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <1991May1.152922.25632@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes: > > > > >If you put Postscript in the laser printer, then you have to pay > >royalties to Adobe for that too. The NeXT laser printer only costs > >$1795($1295 educational), and it has costs that much for the past > ^^^^ > It only costs $1795? What a bargain, if your rich! There are laser > printers for HALF that price! > > >year. > > > >-Mike > > (: << reversed smiley face > > >That print Adobe Postscript? Apple has $400 Laser Printers. > >-Mike I thought Dave was way off here too, but I thought we laid this argument to rest! You don't get PostScript anything for that $1795/$1295 price. You get a 400dpi black laser printer with no display lights. I think it is a good deal, personally. At $1,295 you are getting a 400dpi printer, not 300dpi like the HP III. -- Ethan "Brain! Brain! What is Brain?"
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/02/91)
In article <1991May1.212416.14238@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes:
I thought Dave was way off here too, but I thought we
laid this argument to rest! You don't get PostScript anything for
that $1795/$1295 price. You get a 400dpi black laser printer with
no display lights. I think it is a good deal, personally. At
$1,295 you are getting a 400dpi printer, not 300dpi like the HP
III.
Whether you get postscript or not depends on how you look at it. You
can use Adobe Fonts and print PS code. In other words, you can do
*everything* with a NeXT AND their laserprinter that you can do with
any postscript printer. Performance is the only reason to put PS in
the printer too. And I think a NeXT with its laser printer will
printer faster than a Mac with and a Laserprinter(they haven't put a
RISC in their printers yet, have they?). Cost is the reason for not
putting PS and less hardware in the printer. NeXT must make a profit
and this is a great way(IMHO) for them to do it. They obviously
aren't making a fortune on the "cheap" NeXTstation.
How much do you think that it costs to actually build the NeXT
printer? $1795($1295) is a great price for us, but it probably has a
bit of a markup. We all win with NeXTs stratagy. Oh I forgot, this
is an Amiga group :-).
-Mikebard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) (05/02/91)
In article <1991May1.212416.14238@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > > I thought Dave was way off here too, but I thought we >laid this argument to rest! You don't get PostScript anything for >that $1795/$1295 price. You get a 400dpi black laser printer with >no display lights. I think it is a good deal, personally. At >$1,295 you are getting a 400dpi printer, not 300dpi like the HP >III. Ooo, Ethan, you get slammed for this. I helped build those HPIII's. They are *technically* 300 dpi, but the dots are variable-radius. The *effective* dpi of the LaserJet III is around 600 dpi. > -- Ethan Dave Hopper | /// Anthro Creep | Academic Info Resources, Stanford |__ /// . . | Macincrap/UNIX Consultant bard@jessica. |\\\/// Ia! Ia! | -- Just remember: love is life, and Stanford.EDU | \XX/ Shub-Niggurath! | hate is living death. :Black Sabbath
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (05/02/91)
In article <gd9G9cr_1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <1991May1.212416.14238@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > > I thought Dave was way off here too, but I thought we > laid this argument to rest! You don't get PostScript anything for > that $1795/$1295 price. You get a 400dpi black laser printer with > no display lights. I think it is a good deal, personally. At > $1,295 you are getting a 400dpi printer, not 300dpi like the HP > III. > >Whether you get postscript or not depends on how you look at it. You >can use Adobe Fonts and print PS code. In other words, you can do >*everything* with a NeXT AND their laserprinter that you can do with >any postscript printer. Performance is the only reason to put PS in >the printer too. And I think a NeXT with its laser printer will >printer faster than a Mac with and a Laserprinter(they haven't put a >RISC in their printers yet, have they?). Cost is the reason for not >putting PS and less hardware in the printer. NeXT must make a profit >and this is a great way(IMHO) for them to do it. They obviously >aren't making a fortune on the "cheap" NeXTstation. > You KNOW my point, andd it is totally true. The point of the discussion was (from David's question) why does the printer cost so much, and you essentially said that its cost includes PostScript, which it doesn't. Yes, that is an advantage of the NeXT, and you do a good job of flaunting it, but it definitely isn't a reason to get the printer itself. >How much do you think that it costs to actually build the NeXT >printer? $1795($1295) is a great price for us, but it probably has a >bit of a markup. We all win with NeXTs stratagy. Oh I forgot, this >is an Amiga group :-). > The price is good. It isn't miraculous. You can get HP compatible laser printers for about $800 these days, 300dpi ones that is. I know that with DTP programs like PageStream I don't NEED Postscript. It will take adobe fonts and convert them to bitmaps itself at print time. >-Mike -- Ethan "Brain! Brain! What is Brain?"
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (05/02/91)
In article <1991May2.013339.18412@leland.Stanford.EDU> bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) writes: >In article <1991May1.212416.14238@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: >> >> I thought Dave was way off here too, but I thought we >>laid this argument to rest! You don't get PostScript anything for >>that $1795/$1295 price. You get a 400dpi black laser printer with >>no display lights. I think it is a good deal, personally. At >>$1,295 you are getting a 400dpi printer, not 300dpi like the HP >>III. > >Ooo, Ethan, you get slammed for this. I helped build those HPIII's. >They are *technically* 300 dpi, but the dots are variable-radius. The >*effective* dpi of the LaserJet III is around 600 dpi. > The HP III is definitely a major step forward. There are a lot of nice features in them admittedly. Your saying that the way they work is you can only put 300dpi but each of those dots can be of varying size? Kinda like newspaper photo techinques? That's really interesting. >> -- Ethan > >Dave Hopper | /// Anthro Creep | Academic Info Resources, Stanford > |__ /// . . | Macincrap/UNIX Consultant >bard@jessica. |\\\/// Ia! Ia! | -- Just remember: love is life, and > Stanford.EDU | \XX/ Shub-Niggurath! | hate is living death. :Black Sabbath -- Ethan "Brain! Brain! What is Brain?"
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/02/91)
In article <1991May2.024154.18500@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes:
The price is good. It isn't miraculous. You can get HP
compatible laser printers for about $800 these days, 300dpi ones
that is. I know that with DTP programs like PageStream I don't
NEED Postscript. It will take adobe fonts and convert them to
bitmaps itself at print time.
Postscript is more than fonts! And I think that you can connect a HP
printer to the NeXT. I know that you can connect the Apple
LaserWriter.
-Mikemelling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/02/91)
In article <927@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM> dltaylor@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dan Taylor) writes:
Oh, I have multi-tasking, too. But I have more useful work for MY
CPU, than printing SOMEONE ELSE's (or even my own) files. So,
I let my printer figure out the PS, while my CPU compiles, edits,
and does file transfers (along with background game calculations).
Then buy Apple's LaserWriter. Or if you are in a lab full of NeXTs,
don't use the server. If your machine isn't networked then you aren't
printing someone elses files, just your own. Thus printing won't be
normally be a problem.
Just seems a LOT more logical to let the printer do its own work,
than waste system CPU bandwidth doing it. Yeah, they lowered the
priority, but it shouldn't even be happening.
Well, you have a choice. Spend $$$ and get the extra hardware, or buy
the one without it and spend a lot less.
I wonder which way gets your document printed faster. I wouldn't be
surprised if the 040 NeXT be the Apple LaserWriters.
Consider how much CPU editing a file actually takes? Most of the
time the computer is waiting on you and just wasting all of those
cycles anyway.
-Mikekris@tpki.toppoint.de (Kristian Koehntopp) (05/02/91)
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >I guess you could have 'nice'ed the job after it started, but that is >a pain, and beyond the average user's abilities. Well, what a statement about the abilities of the average NeXT user. Kristian Kristian Koehntopp, Harmsstrasse 98, 2300 Kiel, +49 431 676689 Predicting the future is easy. Doing so with any accuracy is very hard. -- Sape J. Mullender, from the Amoeba Papers
lasteve@aix01.aix.rpi.edu (Steven D Borrelli) (05/02/91)
In article <927@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM> dltaylor@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dan Taylor) writes: >In <.29G1$1-1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >>Ever heard of multitasking? > >Oh, I have multi-tasking, too. But I have more useful work for MY >CPU, than printing SOMEONE ELSE's (or even my own) files. So, >I let my printer figure out the PS, while my CPU compiles, edits, >and does file transfers (along with background game calculations). > >Just seems a LOT more logical to let the printer do its own work, >than waste system CPU bandwidth doing it. Yeah, they lowered the >priority, but it shouldn't even be happening. > >Dan Taylor >/* My opinions, not NCR's. */ I understand you point of view, but you have to look at the decison to use a dum printer was made about two years ago whne prices were a lot different. NeXT doesn't force you to use their printer. You can hook a lot of printers to it, so the decision to use CPU resources to print is yours. Steven D. Borrelli lasteve@rpi.edu (NeXTmail)
dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (05/04/91)
In article <z$Gndb-1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > > >Of course they do. They feel very threatened. It's only going to get >worse. Wait until the nExtDimension Board is actually released! Then >nExt year there will be a 30-50 mip(maybe faster) nExt in the $10,000 Unless nExt is making 30 mip custom chips, I think every system will soon have 50 mip chips (that is if they have enough expansion slots; I would hate to have to throw away a computer just because it has no expansion slots). >range. nExt is on the move. Soon we'll have the best games in the >business too :-). > >-Mike So when will it be released? Sounds like you'll be waiting a long time! I remember the wait for the nExt cpu's the first time around... -- David Tiberio SUNY Stony Brook 2-3481 AMIGA DDD-MEN "If you think that we're here for the money, we could live without it. But the world isn't too good here, and it wasn't always like that." Un ragazzo di Casalbordino, Italia.
jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) (05/04/91)
Quoted from <927Gd92+1@cs.psu.edu> by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): > In article <927@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM> dltaylor@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dan Taylor) writes: > Just seems a LOT more logical to let the printer do its own work, > Well, you have a choice. Spend $$$ and get the extra hardware, or buy It _is_ better to have the printer doing the work. I thought that was the main advantage of Postscript, that you could get printers to do lots of the grunt work for you. Otherwise, why not use TeX for document preparation? > -Mike -- *** John Bickers, TAP, NZAmigaUG. jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz *** *** "Endless variations, make it all seem new" - Devo. ***
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/04/91)
In article <1991May3.200546.16303@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes:
Unless nExt is making 30 mip custom chips, I think every system will soon
have 50 mip chips (that is if they have enough expansion slots; I would
hate to have to throw away a computer just because it has no expansion
slots).
NeXT doesn't make microprocessors they buy them from Motorola. You
know, the company that makes the CPU for the Amiga.
The current NeXTstation(slab only) costs ~$2500 with the educational
discount. How much do you think it's going to cost you to upgrade
your Amiga 3000 to the 68040? And in three years, how much will it
cost you to upgrade it again to the 68050, or some other CPU? Now
let's not forget those awesome graphics chips. Commodore will surely
have something better by then, and those custom chips are expensive to
develop. How much will it cost to upgrade to the new graphics chips?
So when will it be released? Sounds like you'll be waiting a long time!
I remember the wait for the nExt cpu's the first time around...
It took 4 months for NeXT to get there machines out after they were
announce. HP customers waited almost a year because they announced
their machines last June. In all probability, the next generation of
NeXTs will contain the NeXT generation 88K. I'll leave it up to you
to determine how good that chip will be.
-Mike
Any of you guys watch Star Trek the NeXT Generation?<MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu> (05/05/91)
In article <rbaGn&?=1@cs.psu.edu>, melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) says: > >In article <1991May3.200546.16303@sbcs.sunysb.edu> >dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes: > > Unless nExt is making 30 mip custom chips, I think every system will soon > have 50 mip chips (that is if they have enough expansion slots; I would > hate to have to throw away a computer just because it has no expansion > slots). > >NeXT doesn't make microprocessors they buy them from Motorola. You >know, the company that makes the CPU for the Amiga. > >The current NeXTstation(slab only) costs ~$2500 with the educational >discount. How much do you think it's going to cost you to upgrade >your Amiga 3000 to the 68040? And in three years, how much will it Gosh, I dunno. Wait a minute, here's some companies that are planning drop-in 68040 boards for $800, barely the cost of the 68040 chip itself. Well, there ya go. >cost you to upgrade it again to the 68050, or some other CPU? Now Wild guess: $1000 or so. YOU, however, will NOT be able to upgrade YOUR NeXT Slab to the 68050, PERIOD. In 3 years you'll have to throw out your Slab and buy a Boulder. Assuming NeXT is still around in three years. >let's not forget those awesome graphics chips. Commodore will surely >have something better by then, and those custom chips are expensive to >develop. How much will it cost to upgrade to the new graphics chips? The ECS Agnes and Denise chips together cost $150; for this you drop in completely new chips. The cost will never be much more than that. Even a lowly Amiga 500 can be expanded to take advantage of every expansion devise there is: lots of people have '030-powered A500s. Get a clue: most people would rather not have to throw away their old computer if they want to take advantage of a new chip. There's a reason for expansion ports, y'know. / Mark "Remixed for Common Household Appliances" Sachs - MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu \ | DISCLAIMER: It's NOT MY FAULT. Kei and Yuri || // || | forced me to say it. || \X/ AMIGA || \== "I think this calls for some diabolical laughter! RAAH HA HA HA HA HA!" ==/
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (05/05/91)
In article <rbaGn&?=1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > The current NeXTstation(slab only) costs ~$2500 with the educational > discount. If I hear "educational discount" prices for the NeXT once more I'm going to scream. I shall go stark raving mad and I shall take you with me. We will be very happy together in a rubber room. Compare list price or nothing: even most students can't get that damn educational discount. Too few universities provide it. It's probably easier to get an Amiga developer's price! And most people who can afford a cube aren't students. Would you consider quoting $1875 as the price of the 3000 fair? That's what it costs right now. $200 less than I paid under the developer's program, I admit, but there you have it. And you don't have to pay outrageous multi-user UNIX prices for software. I've got the NeXT product catalog. Those product prices are completely out of the question for mortals. > Any of you guys watch Star Trek the NeXT Generation? Yeh, we're wondering why Picard hasn't sued the tits off the contractor who designed the holodeck. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/06/91)
In article <1991May5.115329.24187@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
If I hear "educational discount" prices for the NeXT once more I'm going to
scream. I shall go stark raving mad and I shall take you with me. We will
be very happy together in a rubber room.
I can get an 25MHz Amiga 3000 for $2200 with an eductational discount
:-).
Compare list price or nothing: even most students can't get that damn
educational discount. Too few universities provide it. It's probably easier
to get an Amiga developer's price! And most people who can afford a cube
aren't students.
Would you consider quoting $1875 as the price of the 3000 fair? That's what
it costs right now. $200 less than I paid under the developer's program, I
admit, but there you have it.
That depends on the audience that you're talking to. It sounds to me
like most of the people who I am arguing with are definitely college
students.
And you don't have to pay outrageous multi-user UNIX prices for software.
I've got the NeXT product catalog. Those product prices are completely out
of the question for mortals.
The prices did seem a bit high, but they looked like standard business
prices. $995 for FrameMaker(it's the same on the Mac, Sun and NeXT?).
Packages like WP, Illustrator, Wingz, Improv,etc go from $395 to $695.
Some of the RDMS were priced high, but that's because they're
high-powered workstation RDMS. Stone Software has a low-end DBM.
I'll have to call NeXT Connection to find out their current prices.
Besides, this mere mortal doesn't need to buy all of that software.
Most of the stuff that I use comes free with the NeXT or is available
by anonymous ftp. The only thing that I considered buying was Diagram
because it only costs $25 for students, and it retails for either $395
or $495.
-Mikepeter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (05/06/91)
In article <_g5Gy0x*1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > In article <1991May5.115329.24187@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > If I hear "educational discount" prices for the NeXT once more I'm going to > scream. I shall go stark raving mad and I shall take you with me. We will > be very happy together in a rubber room. > I can get an 25MHz Amiga 3000 for $2200 with an eductational discount > :-). Aaaaargh!!!!!!!!!! Bwahahahahahahaha!!! Phhhhhhphphpht! The Tuna! They are calling me. Nyuk nyuk nyuk. Oh, a wise guy, eh? *Poit* > That depends on the audience that you're talking to. It sounds to me > like most of the people who I am arguing with are definitely college > students. With the luck to be at the right colleges? > The prices did seem a bit high, but they looked like standard business > prices. $995 for FrameMaker(it's the same on the Mac, Sun and NeXT?). > Packages like WP, Illustrator, Wingz, Improv,etc go from $395 to $695. Yes, but that's *all* that's offered. Where are the $20-$50 programs? > Most of the stuff that I use comes free with the NeXT or is available > by anonymous ftp. Yes, and most of the stuff I use comes free with the Amiga or is available on BBSes and for anonymous UUCP. But you or I are not the marketplace that make a machine a success. You have to get it to end-users, and they need software. Why should they pay $5000 for the NeXT and $400-$700 a pop for packages when they can get a PC with Windows or a Mac for $2000 and pay $200 to $400 a pop for software? The Amiga has a lot of end-user markets that don't compete with the two big boys. What does the NeXT have? -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/06/91)
In article <1991May6.110530.7978@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > The prices did seem a bit high, but they looked like standard business > prices. $995 for FrameMaker(it's the same on the Mac, Sun and NeXT?). > Packages like WP, Illustrator, Wingz, Improv,etc go from $395 to $695. Yes, but that's *all* that's offered. Where are the $20-$50 programs? Ok, Peter. What were you doing 6 years ago when I was telling people to buy the Amiga, it was the hottest thing since sliced bread(probably a DOS weenie). There weren't any $50 programs available then, just the EA stuff that used to GURU meditate, and the Bouncing Ball demo. When a new computer is released it has to start somewhere. Yes, and most of the stuff I use comes free with the Amiga or is available on BBSes and for anonymous UUCP. But you or I are not the marketplace that make a machine a success. You have to get it to end-users, and they need software. Why should they pay $5000 for the NeXT and $400-$700 a pop for packages when they can get a PC with Windows or a Mac for $2000 and pay $200 to $400 a pop for software? Which Macs or PCs are you going to get for $2000? The people who are interested in the more expensive Macs and PC's will love the NeXT. It's also great if you are a student who can get one for cheap. You are right, the NeXT does have a limited market for now. They are targeting businesses and college students. Hopefully, that will change in two years, but they are only capable of producing 100,000 machines a year at the moment, and establishing themselves with big business first will help entice software developers. The Amiga has a lot of end-user markets that don't compete with the two big boys. What does the NeXT have? They compete with the big boys. -Mike
s110a010@deneb (Your worst nightmare) (05/07/91)
In article <=0bGppm&1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > The Amiga has a lot of end-user markets that don't compete with the two big > boys. What does the NeXT have? > >They compete with the big boys. > >-Mike No, they are getting their asses kicked by the big boys. I don't exactly call that competing. Pat...
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/07/91)
In article <12870@aggie.ucdavis.edu> s110a010@deneb (Your worst nightmare) writes:
No, they are getting their asses kicked by the big boys. I don't
exactly call that competing.
Pat...
Yeah, Apple's MacIIci blows it away, and so does IBM's Model 55. NeXT
is going to need to beef up their machine or else...
-Mikedvljhg@cs.umu.se (J|rgen Holmberg) (05/07/91)
In article <=0bGppm&1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <1991May6.110530.7978@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > [stuff deleted] > > The Amiga has a lot of end-user markets that don't compete with the two big > boys. What does the NeXT have? > >They compete with the big boys. > >-Mike *snicker*, at the last olympic winter games there was this guy that seemed never to have tried cross-coutry skiing. He came in long after the others and dead tired. He did compete with the big boys though :-) Get the picture? /Jorgen -- email dvljhg@cs.umu.se | DUMII: Sentinel of the scales Everything I say is always true, just apply it to the right reality. "Credo, quia absurdum est." Credo (dei) in absurdum est?
gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) (05/07/91)
From article <mo5G9+x&1@cs.psu.edu>, by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): > > In article <12870@aggie.ucdavis.edu> s110a010@deneb (Your worst nightmare) writes: > > No, they are getting their asses kicked by the big boys. I don't > exactly call that competing. > > Pat... > > Yeah, Apple's MacIIci blows it away, and so does IBM's Model 55. NeXT > is going to need to beef up their machine or else... > > -Mike More nightmarish delusions? You've forgotten again. Amiga is a computer, the Amiga competes with the MacIIci and the IBM model 55. The nExt, however, is a WORKSTATION, so keep the comparisons straight. And since both of the above have more software on their little floppy than you have on your entire hard disk, maybe your comparisons are invalid... Not even the Amiga can claim to beat both of the above in market penetration, and you claim that yours is better than thiers, when it's not even better than the Amiga's???? Greg -- All opinions are my own, and not those of my employer. Why? He doesn't know I'm doing this. -Wubba
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/07/91)
In article <11879@uwm.edu> gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:
More nightmarish delusions? You've forgotten again. Amiga is a
computer, the Amiga competes with the MacIIci and the IBM model 55.
The nExt, however, is a WORKSTATION, so keep the comparisons straight.
What's the difference b/w a workstation and a PC? Could you define
them for me. The boundaries have blurred.
And since both of the above have more software on their little floppy
than you have on your entire hard disk, maybe your comparisons are invalid..
You are joking, right?
Not even the Amiga can claim to beat both of the above in market
penetration, and you claim that yours is better than thiers, when it's
not even better than the Amiga's????
Whatever.
-Mikegblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) (05/07/91)
From article <7r8G&?-&1@cs.psu.edu>, by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): > > In article <11879@uwm.edu> gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes: > What's the difference b/w a workstation and a PC? Could you define > them for me. The boundaries have blurred. Yes, they have. Workstations run Unix. PC's don't. That's the most general comparison I can make. I'd rather not get into specifics. It's pointless. We all know that the NeXT is being spoofed as a Workstation, not a PC. So the point is moot. > And since both of the above have more software on their little floppy > than you have on your entire hard disk, maybe your comparisons are invalid > > You are joking, right? I hope you are. Can you honestly say that you on your little NeXT has anywhere NEAR as much software as a Mac? Have you lost that puny, miniscule mind you were so eagerly born with? At least a person can walk into a store and buy Amiga software anywhere in the US. > > Not even the Amiga can claim to beat both of the above in market > penetration, and you claim that yours is better than thiers, when it's > not even better than the Amiga's???? > > Whatever. > > -Mike See the above, if that doesn't prove something, I worry about genetic defects you may still have. :) Greg -- All opinions are my own, and not those of my employer. Why? He doesn't know I'm doing this. -Wubba
s110a010@deneb (Your worst nightmare) (05/07/91)
In article <mo5G9+x&1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >Yeah, Apple's MacIIci blows it away, and so does IBM's Model 55. NeXT >is going to need to beef up their machine or else... > >-Mike I was refering to volume (units shipped = $ coming in.) "Big Boys" volume > nExt (Does this make it any more clear for you?) BTW, is your middle name Richard? Seems to fit. Pat...
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/07/91)
In article <12876@aggie.ucdavis.edu> s110a010@deneb (Your worst nightmare) writes: >Yeah, Apple's MacIIci blows it away, and so does IBM's Model 55. NeXT >is going to need to beef up their machine or else... > >-Mike I was refering to volume (units shipped = $ coming in.) "Big Boys" volume > nExt (Does this make it any more clear for you?) I understood what you meant. I wanted to get acrossed the point that the NeXT produces a superior machine. That is what's important right? I wouldn't buy a computer from a company just because it sold more than its competitor. -Mike
torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) (05/08/91)
jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) writes: > It _is_ better to have the printer doing the work. I thought that > was the main advantage of Postscript, that you could get printers to > do lots of the grunt work for you. I'd call that a very minor advantage. The main advantage of Postscript is that it gives you a rich imaging model coupled with device independence. >Otherwise, why not use TeX for document preparation? Try doing some of Postscript's graphics effects in TeX. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu "And remember, whatever you do, DON'T MENTION THE WAR!"
nwickham@triton.unm.edu (Neal C. Wickham) (05/08/91)
In article <bfbGl+*&1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >I understood what you meant. I wanted to get acrossed the point that >the NeXT produces a superior machine. That is what's important right? >I wouldn't buy a computer from a company just because it sold more >than its competitor. > >-Mike > You sound so much more friendly and understanding ...you going to buy an Amiga if NeXT doesn't make it? NCW
greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) (05/08/91)
In article <=0bGppm&1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <1991May6.110530.7978@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > > Yes, but that's *all* that's offered. Where are the $20-$50 programs? > >Ok, Peter. What were you doing 6 years ago when I was telling people >to buy the Amiga, it was the hottest thing since sliced bread(probably >a DOS weenie). There weren't any $50 programs available then, just >the EA stuff that used to GURU meditate, and the Bouncing Ball demo. >When a new computer is released it has to start somewhere. Hmmm... Actually, I though I remembered that most of the Amiga software costed $50 back then. >Which Macs or PCs are you going to get for $2000? The people who are >interested in the more expensive Macs and PC's will love the NeXT. >It's also great if you are a student who can get one for cheap. You >are right, the NeXT does have a limited market for now. They are >targeting businesses and college students. Hopefully, that will >change in two years, but they are only capable of producing 100,000 >machines a year at the moment, and establishing themselves with big >business first will help entice software developers. Catch-22 there. You have to have software in order to establish yourself as a big business. BTW, I can get a pretty decent 386 box for $2000. If I ran a business I don't think I'd concern myself with some weird, non-standard machine like the NeXT even if all I was going to do was spreadsheet work (by that I mean even if I could use Improv). I'm asking for more trouble by getting into a Unix box in the first place, and from what I hear about administering a NeXT that's a serious consideration. > The Amiga has a lot of end-user markets that don't compete with the two big > boys. What does the NeXT have? > >They compete with the big boys. You call 30,000 machines competition? Timex still has NeXT beat. >-Mike Greg -- Greg Harp |"I was there to match my intellect on national TV, | against a plumber and an architect, both with a PhD." greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu| -- "I Lost on Jeopardy," Weird Al Yankovic
dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (05/08/91)
In article <rbaGn&?=1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <1991May3.200546.16303@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes: {Important information relevant to topic deleted by the guy I'm responding to} {To paraphrase: 'nExt has 30 mip chips, and will soon have 50 mip chips'} > > Unless nExt is making 30 mip custom chips, I think every system will soon > have 50 mip chips (that is if they have enough expansion slots; I would > hate to have to throw away a computer just because it has no expansion > slots). > >nExt doesn't make microprocessors they buy them from Motorola. You >know, the company that makes the CPU for the Amiga. Oh, I thought the Amiga uses a 6502 chip. Are you sure Motorola makes 6502s? >The current nExtstation(slab only) costs ~$2500 with the educational >discount. How much do you think it's going to cost you to upgrade >your Amiga 3000 to the 68040? And in three years, how much will it It will cost $1800 for an Amiga 3000, and $900 for a 68040 board. And I will get more than just a slab. And this is WITHOUT the educational discount. >cost you to upgrade it again to the 68050, or some other CPU? Now Probably another $900. >let's not forget those awesome graphics chips. Commodore will surely >have something better by then, and those custom chips are expensive to >develop. How much will it cost to upgrade to the new graphics chips? Probably $300 for a complete new set of 5 chips. > > So when will it be released? Sounds like you'll be waiting a long time! > I remember the wait for the nExt cpu's the first time around... > >It took 4 months for nExt to get there machines out after they were Well, Commodore hasn't announced the 2.0 roms yet, so I don't want to hear another word about when the 2.0 roms are released. :) >announce. HP customers waited almost a year because they announced >their machines last June. In all probability, the next generation of ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ In all probability, every nExt owner will have to totally resell his system to a 13 year old sucker. >nExts will contain the nExt generation 88K. I'll leave it up to you >to determine how good that chip will be. It's not whether the CHIP is good; it's whether the socket it plugs into is good. I'll leave it up to you to determine what that means. > >-Mike > >Any of you guys watch Star Trek the nExt Generation? > -- David Tiberio SUNY Stony Brook 2-3481 AMIGA DDD-MEN "If you think that we're here for the money, we could live without it. But the world isn't too good here, and it wasn't always like that." Un ragazzo di Casalbordino, Italia.
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/08/91)
In article <1991May7.235145.12420@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes:
Oh, I thought the Amiga uses a 6502 chip. Are you sure Motorola makes 6502s?
In that case, I get to ignore the rest of your article.
-Mikedltaylor@cns.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dan Taylor) (05/08/91)
In <11881@uwm.edu> gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes: >Yes, they have. Workstations run Unix. PC's don't. That's the most >general comparison I can make. I'd rather not get into specifics. >It's pointless. We all know that the NeXT is being spoofed as a >Workstation, not a PC. So the point is moot. Since the Intel-based PC family of computers has the LARGEST, by far, installed base of UNIX, and variants, WHERE do you draw the line? A "PC" is a computer on which a PERSON works, or plays. A "workstation" is a computer on which a person WORKs, or plays. See the difference? The "plays", by the way, is not a joke. How many hours of "nethack", "empire", or whatever, have been played on workstations (or mainframes). Sure, there is a dollar, and performance, spread, but the line is GONE. The Amiga on my table-top at home is much more powerful than a three-year- old Sun 3, which was a top-of-the-line workstation. Some have UNIX on 286s, others have "Domain", the Apollo WORKSTATION operating system, without UNIX. Why is an AmigaDOS A3000, being used in a business, to do publishing, not a workstation, while a UNIX A3000, writing a few term papers, and playing "nethack", is? By some peoples' measure, a NeXT is a nice, entry-level workstation, like the lower-end SUNs. By others', it is a high-end PC. Depends on who's using it, for what, and who's measuring, and how. The Amiga family of computers is used by more people, to get more work, and more play, done than NeXTs, by sheer numbers, if nothing else. So, it is both a PC and a workstation, as is a NeXT, and a Mac, and a PS/2 (probably a few "real" workstations, too). There must be a few niceties to using a NeXT, since not ALL 30,000 (or whatever) owners are likely to be fools. It doesn't do anything for me, but so what? There are also niceties using an Amiga. Neither is better, except when it comes to satisfying each owner/user. If a person doesn't have a choice, for some reason, then "better" is NEVER a question, and, if a buyer doesn't take the time to do a bit of research to identify the "best" choice, FOR THEMSELF, then they deserve any and all ensuing aggravation. I could nit-pick ANY computer, and, from some point of view, "prove" it to be "inferior". For that matter, all of them were compromised at some point in the design process, by cost, time-to-market, etc. Easy to pick on the compromises. A quiet discussion of the compromises, how they affect performance within the selected model and market segment, and how the chosen features help, and hinder, the user will be useful to all of us, next time we buy. Stupid ranting is for children. Dan Taylor
torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) (05/08/91)
dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes: >In article <rbaGn&?=1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >> >> Unless nExt is making 30 mip custom chips, I think every system will soon >> have 50 mip chips (that is if they have enough expansion slots; I would >> hate to have to throw away a computer just because it has no expansion >> slots). >> >>nExt doesn't make microprocessors they buy them from Motorola. You >>know, the company that makes the CPU for the Amiga. > Oh, I thought the Amiga uses a 6502 chip. Are you sure Motorola makes 6502s? I hope you're being sarcastic here (no :-)'s though?) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu "And in the death, as the last few corpses lay rotting in the slimy thoroughfare, the shutters lifted in inches, high on Poacher's Hill..."
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/08/91)
In article <3052.tnews@templar.actrix.gen.nz> jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) writes:
It _is_ better to have the printer doing the work. I thought that
was the main advantage of Postscript, that you could get printers to
do lots of the grunt work for you. Otherwise, why not use TeX for
document preparation?
Well, you can use both types of printers on the NeXT.
TeX and Postscript are completely different.
And quit making definitive statements when you are obviously just
stating your opinion about which type of laser printer is better.
-Mikemelling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/08/91)
In article <48624@ut-emx.uucp> greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) writes:
Hmmm... Actually, I though I remembered that most of the Amiga software
costed $50 back then.
It was probably more like $99. I don't think the EA stuff was that
cheap. The games were $50 bucks, and except for Marble Madness, they
were mostly C64 ports. Remember Deluxe Paint, Deluxe Video,
Deluxe...? And the software was buggy as hell.
Catch-22 there. You have to have software in order to establish yourself
as a big business.
Making it easy for developers to write software for your machine helps
too.
BTW, I can get a pretty decent 386 box for $2000. If I ran a business I
don't think I'd concern myself with some weird, non-standard machine like
the NeXT even if all I was going to do was spreadsheet work (by that I mean
even if I could use Improv). I'm asking for more trouble by getting into a
Unix box in the first place, and from what I hear about administering a
NeXT that's a serious consideration.
With a cache? The 040 is 3-4 times faster than the 386, which doesn't
even have a floating-point coprocessor built in. Who told you that
the NeXT is difficult to administer? Your local Apple or IBM rep.?
-Mikejbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) (05/08/91)
Quoted from <mo5G9+x&1@cs.psu.edu> by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): > In article <12870@aggie.ucdavis.edu> s110a010@deneb (Your worst nightmare) writes: > No, they are getting their asses kicked by the big boys. I don't > Yeah, Apple's MacIIci blows it away, and so does IBM's Model 55. NeXT > is going to need to beef up their machine or else... Has nothing to do with beefing up their machine. For a lot of people, any PClone blows the NeXT away. > -Mike -- *** John Bickers, TAP, NZAmigaUG. jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz *** *** "Endless variations, make it all seem new" - Devo. ***
jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) (05/08/91)
Quoted from <bfbGl+*&1@cs.psu.edu> by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): > "Big Boys" volume > nExt (Does this make it any more clear for you?) > I understood what you meant. I wanted to get acrossed the point that > the NeXT produces a superior machine. That is what's important right? Not in the context you were using, re competing with the "big boys". That definitely implied commercial viability. I don't think the NeXT comes close to the "big boys" in the quality field, as far as real workstations go. > I wouldn't buy a computer from a company just because it sold more No, you'll buy because of marketing hype. Slick. > -Mike -- *** John Bickers, TAP, NZAmigaUG. jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz *** *** "Endless variations, make it all seem new" - Devo. ***
greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) (05/08/91)
In article <ti6Go&x$1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <48624@ut-emx.uucp> greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) writes: > > Hmmm... Actually, I though I remembered that most of the Amiga software > costed $50 back then. > >It was probably more like $99. I don't think the EA stuff was that >cheap. The games were $50 bucks, and except for Marble Madness, they >were mostly C64 ports. Remember Deluxe Paint, Deluxe Video, >Deluxe...? And the software was buggy as hell. Well, the point is that it wasn't $500. Besides, two years down the road the software was quite improved and the prices were lower. Two years down the road with NeXT the apps are still expensive. They will probably remain expensive. That's what the whole deal with the word "Workstation" is. It implies extra worth, and therefore higher prices. > Catch-22 there. You have to have software in order to establish yourself > as a big business. > >Making it easy for developers to write software for your machine helps >too. Granted. It's not like NeXT is an especially easy platform to develop for, though. Its IB is nice, but apps are by no means made of UIs alone, and I still maintain that IB is basically there to make up for the relative difficulty of writing and and debugging PostScript UI code by hand. > BTW, I can get a pretty decent 386 box for $2000. If I ran a business I > don't think I'd concern myself with some weird, non-standard machine like > the NeXT even if all I was going to do was spreadsheet work (by that I mean > even if I could use Improv). I'm asking for more trouble by getting into a > Unix box in the first place, and from what I hear about administering a > NeXT that's a serious consideration. > >With a cache? The 040 is 3-4 times faster than the 386, which doesn't >even have a floating-point coprocessor built in. Who told you that >the NeXT is difficult to administer? Your local Apple or IBM rep.? I didn't say that the 386 was faster or better. I hate Intel CPUs. I'm justing presenting the facts. A general business would be better off with the 386 than the NeXT. A DTP business would be better off with a Mac. A video business would be better off the an Amiga. BTW, what I've heard about administering NeXTs has been in different newsgroups around the net. Of course, administering SPARCs is no picknick either, or so some of the same posts go. Also, I place about as much weight on what an Apple or IBM rep says as what a NeXT rep says, which, as you may have guessed, is very little. Marketroids can't be trusted, as you yourself have shown with NeXT press releases and such. At first I was surprised when even you paid attention to them, but now I know better... >-Mike Greg -- Greg Harp |"I was there to match my intellect on national TV, | against a plumber and an architect, both with a PhD." greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu| -- "I Lost on Jeopardy," Weird Al Yankovic
murphy@gibbs.physics.purdue.edu (William J. Murphy) (05/08/91)
In article <3315.tnews@templar.actrix.gen.nz> jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) writes: > Has nothing to do with beefing up their machine. For a lot of > people, any PClone blows the NeXT away. Yeah, I use my '386 as a glorified tape transfer station to the NeXT. (I take data on PC's in a laboratory and chose to do the analysis on a NeXT.) The great software on the PC for signal processing (DaDisp, MatLab) has really swayed my opinion away from the PC. Bill Murphy murphy@physics.purdue.edu Anything above the line beneath the line below is false. ________________The Line Beneath________________________
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (05/09/91)
In article <=0bGppm&1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > In article <1991May6.110530.7978@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > > The prices did seem a bit high, but they looked like standard business > > prices. $995 for FrameMaker(it's the same on the Mac, Sun and NeXT?). > > Packages like WP, Illustrator, Wingz, Improv,etc go from $395 to $695. > Yes, but that's *all* that's offered. Where are the $20-$50 programs? > Ok, Peter. What were you doing 6 years ago when I was telling people > to buy the Amiga, I was telling people to buy the Amiga. In fact I sold at least 10 people on them. But the Amiga in 1985 had this big difference from the NeXT in 1989: it cost much, much, less than the nearest machine of equivalent capabilities. Not just (let's be charitable) half the price, but an order of magnitude less. This was damn near a 3M machine for PC prices, back when workstations were all over $10K. And it had capabilities NO other PC had, and damn few have even 6 years later. The NeXT is priced a little under the low end of workstations, and is way overpriced as a PC. And it doesn't have any unique new capability that gives it a niche. > it was the hottest thing since sliced bread(probably > a DOS weenie). There weren't any $50 programs available then, just > the EA stuff that used to GURU meditate, and the Bouncing Ball demo. > When a new computer is released it has to start somewhere. Yes, but there *are* plenty of NeXT programs. And the cheapest one I can find is a $95 appointment calendar. The sort of thing you'd find on a "best of fish disks". Hold on, here's a couple of $20 educational programs. And the high end are over $2000! I think this pretty much indicates the pricing we're going to see in the future. Typical workstation prices. > Which Macs or PCs are you going to get for $2000? How about a 386SX with a decent sized hard disk and a couple of Meg of RAM. As far as business folks are concerned, that *is* equivalent to the NeXT. > The people who are > interested in the more expensive Macs and PC's will love the NeXT. None of the ones around here do. The NeXT attracts all the computer nerds. Hell, I'd love one myself. Feeling generous? :-> But business suits? No way. > and establishing themselves with big > business first will help entice software developers. Right. So how do they plan on doing that? I haven't seen a killer application that business will pay an extra $3000 a seat for. > The Amiga has a lot of end-user markets that don't compete with the two big > boys. What does the NeXT have? > They compete with the big boys. Right. Where? -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/09/91)
In article <1991May8.174950.778@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
The NeXT is priced a little under the low end of workstations, and is way
overpriced as a PC. And it doesn't have any unique new capability that gives
it a niche.
A low end workstation is 5K or 10K? That extra 5K will buy me a new
car :-).
Yes, but there *are* plenty of NeXT programs. And the cheapest one I can
find is a $95 appointment calendar. The sort of thing you'd find on a
"best of fish disks". Hold on, here's a couple of $20 educational programs.
The NeXT freeware/shareware market is just now starting to take off.
Consider that the 040 machines have only been available for six
months. These machines are exciting more than just a few people.
And the high end are over $2000!
I imagine there are $2000 PC and Mac programs. That really isn't a problem.
I think this pretty much indicates the pricing we're going to see in the
future. Typical workstation prices.
No way. I'm not going to pay workstation prices. Look again. How
much do WP, Improv, Wingz, Diagram, Illustrator, DataPhile, TopDraw,
Create, WriteNow(free, trick question) each cost? You see high-end
workstation prices for some of the traditionally high-end workstation
products like Oracle and Ingres. The NeXT is capable of supporting
such packages(quite easily, I might add) because it is a workstation,
so these packages will naturally be ported to it.
How about a 386SX with a decent sized hard disk and a couple of Meg of
RAM. As far as business folks are concerned, that *is* equivalent to the
NeXT.
But it isn't equivalent and it doesn't even come close. Run Windows
3.0 on a 386SX then show people the NeXT. Run Word for Windows on a
386SX and show them a Mac Classic :-).
None of the ones around here do. The NeXT attracts all the computer nerds.
Hell, I'd love one myself. Feeling generous? :->
The NeXT attracts all of the computer nerds because they understand
that it is a superior machine by looking at the OS, NeXTStep, and the
hardware. Everyone else needs to see the software, which has been
slow in coming, but it is coming.
But business suits? No way.
Their employees being more productive using Illustrator, Improv, Word
Perfect, etc. on a NeXT rather than a PC or Mac will convince them.
Hell, anyone doing DTP will immediately see an advantage to the NeXT
just by looking at the NeXT price($5000 Peter) and the computer itself
running TopDraw or FrameMaker.
Right. So how do they plan on doing that? I haven't seen a killer application
that business will pay an extra $3000 a seat for.
An extra $3000 a seat? How well do Windows apps really run on 386SX
computers? You seem to think that they are sufficient for most
business needs.
-Miketorrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) (05/09/91)
jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) writes: >Quoted from <bfbGl+*&1@cs.psu.edu> by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): >> I understood what you meant. I wanted to get acrossed the point that >> the NeXT produces a superior machine. That is what's important right? > Not in the context you were using, re competing with the "big boys". > That definitely implied commercial viability. I don't think the NeXT > comes close to the "big boys" in the quality field, as far as > real workstations go. John, Does NeXT have any presence in the EnZed market? Evan. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu "Cold is God's way of telling us to burn more Catholics" - Lady Whiteadder
heinola@hkkk.fi (Bror Heinola) (05/09/91)
In <7r8G&?-&1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >What's the difference b/w a workstation and a PC? Could you define >them for me. The boundaries have blurred. How about this; Workstation has multiuser/multitasking OS, wide and fast I/O bus, large hi-res screen with good GUI. PC has MS-DOS (yuck), slow I/O, VGA (hah) ... Of course you can get all those workstation stuff to PC too, but is it PC anymore when you add *NIX, EISA bus with all those fancy bus-mastering cards (and EISA isn't that fast afterall), and some large screen and f.ex. TARGA-board? -- =<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>=-=<*>= # Bror Heinola # NetMail: # Public BBS system: # # Programmer # heinola@karl.hkkk.fi # Twilight Zone MBBS #
jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) (05/09/91)
Quoted from <1991May7.172020.5826@neon.Stanford.EDU> by torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie): > Try doing some of Postscript's graphics effects in TeX. Must be possible. The TeX book has a cartoon thing at the start of every chapter. I'm still in the middle of reading it, though, so no comment as to whether TeX really can or not. Does Postscript do textual things like ligatures (yes, I haven't read far through the book yet), like TeX does? > Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu -- *** John Bickers, TAP, NZAmigaUG. jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz *** *** "Endless variations, make it all seem new" - Devo. ***
jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) (05/09/91)
Quoted from <x06G-6x$1@cs.psu.edu> by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): > TeX and Postscript are completely different. Postscript is a level lower, right? > And quit making definitive statements when you are obviously just > stating your opinion about which type of laser printer is better. Note that the Ami is based on the same principle of taking load off the CPU and moving it onto something else. To this extent, anything you do to remove CPU load to achieve a task is a Good Thing. Different machines may have different philosophies. So it goes. > -Mike -- *** John Bickers, TAP, NZAmigaUG. jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz *** *** "Endless variations, make it all seem new" - Devo. ***
jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) (05/09/91)
Quoted from <ti6Go&x$1@cs.psu.edu> by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): > Hmmm... Actually, I though I remembered that most of the Amiga software > It was probably more like $99. I don't think the EA stuff was that Hey, a lot of it was free! > BTW, I can get a pretty decent 386 box for $2000. If I ran a business I > don't think I'd concern myself with some weird, non-standard machine like > With a cache? The 040 is 3-4 times faster than the 386, which doesn't Yeah, but so what? If the guy used the machine for small business spreadsheets or accounting, there's a very good chance he'd be wasting money for CPU cycles he doesn't need. Larger commercial tasks, as some people will merrily point out, emphasise IO speed more than CPU speed - the processing is usually simple, but data needs to move in and out rapidly. > even have a floating-point coprocessor built in. Who told you that > the NeXT is difficult to administer? Your local Apple or IBM rep.? People have trouble printing documents under MS-DOS from inside applications. If the NeXT needs to be administered at all, it's going to be a pain. > -Mike -- *** John Bickers, TAP, NZAmigaUG. jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz *** *** "Endless variations, make it all seem new" - Devo. ***
jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) (05/09/91)
Quoted from <5065@dirac.physics.purdue.edu> by murphy@gibbs.physics.purdue.edu (William J. Murphy): > In article <3315.tnews@templar.actrix.gen.nz> jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) writes: > > Has nothing to do with beefing up their machine. For a lot of > > people, any PClone blows the NeXT away. > Yeah, I use my '386 as a glorified tape transfer station to the NeXT. > (I take data on PC's in a laboratory and chose to do the analysis on a NeXT.) I'd bet a small amount of money that the people who find the PClone's functionality at least doubly as appropriate as they would find the NeXT's is on the order of 20 to 1, throughout the world. I'm tempted to say some 3-digit number to 1, in fact. Sure there are exceptions, particularly on the net, where people are inclined to do more useful things with the hardware, but in terms of plain numbers, the PClone beats the tar out of the NeXT. It also hammers the Amiga into the dust, though maybe not so badly (we can emulate a Mac, and can run standard AT&T Unix, both of which could be useful to a standard business sort of user). > Bill Murphy -- *** John Bickers, TAP, NZAmigaUG. jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz *** *** "Endless variations, make it all seem new" - Devo. ***
jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) (05/09/91)
Quoted from <1991May9.001717.22628@neon.Stanford.EDU> by torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie): > jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) writes: > > Not in the context you were using, re competing with the "big boys". > > That definitely implied commercial viability. I don't think the NeXT > Does NeXT have any presence in the EnZed market? As themselves? No. Some marketroid company did bring in a pair of NeXTs recently, but without intending to sell them. I think there are more Iris workstations in this country than there are NeXTs. Yes, here's the article on the floor... under the picture of a NeXT placed next to a Wordperfect teddy bear... "DIANA BARRET, director of Auckland's Number One Software Company, shows off one of the first two NeXT computers brought into New Zealand. The machines have 400 megabytes of hard drive and 32Mb of RAM, a one million pixel screen that offers high-resolution colour. The list price is about US$10,000 (NZ$17,000) each but less highly configured machines are available for about US$5000. Those machines feature monochrome display, 8Mb RAM and 22Mb storage on the hard drive. Peter Macaulay, managing director of Number One, says he will not distribute the NeXT computer but may bring in equipment for interested individuals. He demonstrated Wordperfect 5.0 for NeXT at a trade show in Auckland last week." That's the 6th May 91 issue of a daily newspaper. Now if it's correct about these being the 1st two NeXTs in the country, then there are indeed more Personal Iris workstations here. Along with things like Suns, that RISC thing of IBM's, etc. > Evan. -- *** John Bickers, TAP, NZAmigaUG. jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz *** *** "Endless variations, make it all seem new" - Devo. ***
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (05/10/91)
In article <48647@ut-emx.uucp> greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) writes: > still maintain that IB is basically there to make up for the relative > difficulty of writing and and debugging PostScript UI code by hand. No way. X development sucks, too. So does Mac development. Display Postscript (be it NeXTstep or NeWS (oh god, why didn't the go with NeWS?)) is better. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (05/10/91)
In article <babG3=h#1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > In article <1991May8.174950.778@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > The NeXT is priced a little under the low end of workstations, and is way > overpriced as a PC. And it doesn't have any unique new capability that gives > it a niche. > A low end workstation is 5K or 10K? That extra 5K will buy me a new > car :-). Anything over 2K is out of the PC market, really. The workstation market bottoms out right where the NeXT lives... the $5K mark. > The NeXT freeware/shareware market is just now starting to take off. The freeware/shareware market is not going to sell boxes. Shrink-wrapped applications are. And when the beancounters see an app for $1000 on the NeXT, and the corresponding app for $400 on Windows, that's going to hurt NeXT. > I imagine there are $2000 PC and Mac programs. That really isn't a problem. Yes, but they're the rare exception. There are several in the software catalog alone, which is an incredibly high proportion. > No way. I'm not going to pay workstation prices. Look again. How > much do WP, Improv, Wingz, Diagram, Illustrator, DataPhile, TopDraw, > Create, WriteNow(free, trick question) each cost? 4-500 dollars on up. Instead of 1-200 dollars for PC software. > You see high-end > workstation prices for some of the traditionally high-end workstation > products like Oracle and Ingres. Yes, we're running Oracle on our 386/16 UNIX boxes at work. You can keep it. > But it isn't equivalent and it doesn't even come close. Run Windows > 3.0 on a 386SX then show people the NeXT. I've done the equivalent. We're running a trade show demo that runs Windows next to a Sparcstation-2 running Open Look. That's an even hotter box than the NeXT, so the Sparc should blow them away. The beancounters (remember, Jobs is trying to sell to business) can't tell the difference even when you explain it to them. > Run Word for Windows on a 386SX and show them a Mac Classic :-). "Where's the color?" It's true! They "need" color for their word processors. > Their employees being more productive using Illustrator, Improv, Word > Perfect, etc. on a NeXT rather than a PC or Mac will convince them. (a) Are they going to be more productive, or just do more Macdinking? (b) Given the price differential, they're not going to give it a chance. > Hell, anyone doing DTP will immediately see an advantage to the NeXT > just by looking at the NeXT price($5000 Peter) and the computer itself > running TopDraw or FrameMaker. Fine. And here they're running head to head with Apple (who has just cut their price dramatically). When there are people buying Macs expressly for desktop video, when the difference between the Amiga and the Mac is bigger tahn the difference between the NeXT and the mac in DTP, I can't see NeXT unseating Apple here. Especially with no entry level machine. > An extra $3000 a seat? How well do Windows apps really run on 386SX > computers? Just as well as on DX. Windows apps run in 286 mode, so the extra 2 bytes per data fetch doesn't buy you anything. > You seem to think that they are sufficient for most business needs. I'll let you in on a secret. A PC/XT is sufficient for most business needs. Really. A 386 is massive overkill. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/10/91)
In article <3414.tnews@templar.actrix.gen.nz> jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) writes: > TeX and Postscript are completely different. Postscript is a level lower, right? Postscript is a page description language. It describes how things are to be place on the page. %Postscript 100 100 moveto 50 50 rlineto stroke I don't really know TeX, but it is for writing documents, especially ones with a lot of mathematical symbols. To italicize something you would write \em{NeXT} (Something like this). There tools for two different jobs. -Mike
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/10/91)
In article <1991May9.174002.2765@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: Anything over 2K is out of the PC market, really. The workstation market bottoms out right where the NeXT lives... the $5K mark. Have you priced a MacIIsi or MacIIci lately. Even IBM's and Compaqs machines are higher than that. Although, they just cut their prices big time, so it's time to reevaluate the situation again. The freeware/shareware market is not going to sell boxes. Shrink-wrapped applications are. And when the beancounters see an app for $1000 on the NeXT, and the corresponding app for $400 on Windows, that's going to hurt NeXT. WP, TopDraw, Create, Diagram, DataPhile... I mentioned an entire list of $400-$500 applications in a previous posting. You are paying $1000 for the traditional workstation applications. These applications would cost $100 on a Mac or PC. How much does Frame or Oracle cost on a Mac? > much do WP, Improv, Wingz, Diagram, Illustrator, DataPhile, TopDraw, > Create, WriteNow(free, trick question) each cost? 4-500 dollars on up. Instead of 1-200 dollars for PC software. What do Lotus 123, WP, or WFW cost on a PC? Yes, we're running Oracle on our 386/16 UNIX boxes at work. You can keep it. Then buy Ingres. > But it isn't equivalent and it doesn't even come close. Run Windows > 3.0 on a 386SX then show people the NeXT. I've done the equivalent. We're running a trade show demo that runs Windows next to a Sparcstation-2 running Open Look. That's an even hotter box than the NeXT, so the Sparc should blow them away. The beancounters (remember, Jobs is trying to sell to business) can't tell the difference even when you explain it to them. The SSII is a $14,000 machine(I told you this in comp.arch). And OpenLook is not as refined as NeXTStep. I'm about to back to twm. > Run Word for Windows on a 386SX and show them a Mac Classic :-). "Where's the color?" It's true! They "need" color for their word processors. Yes, color does make a difference. Forgot about that. Why do they need color if they have a bitmap display? (a) Are they going to be more productive, or just do more Macdinking? (b) Given the price differential, they're not going to give it a chance. How much does it cost to dink on a MacIIsi or MacIIci? Fine. And here they're running head to head with Apple (who has just cut their price dramatically). When there are people buying Macs expressly for desktop video, when the difference between the Amiga and the Mac is bigger tahn the difference between the NeXT and the mac in DTP, I can't see NeXT unseating Apple here. Especially with no entry level machine. You're right. NeXT will need to release a lower priced machine in the future to really penetrate the market. They do know this(I asked). For know they are only planning to ship 40k-45K machines this year. They're just trying to become established and to attract some good software developers. Just as well as on DX. Windows apps run in 286 mode, so the extra 2 bytes per data fetch doesn't buy you anything. How about when OS/2 or the 32 version of Windows is released. Should they buy new hardware? > You seem to think that they are sufficient for most business needs. I'll let you in on a secret. A PC/XT is sufficient for most business needs. Try running Deluxe Paint on a PC/XT :-). Or Toolbook, WFW... Really. A 386 is massive overkill. Buying anything less is plain stupid. -Mike
allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery KB8JRR/AA) (05/10/91)
As quoted from <7r8G&?-&1@cs.psu.edu> by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): +--------------- | In article <11879@uwm.edu> gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes: | Not even the Amiga can claim to beat both of the above in market | penetration, and you claim that yours is better than thiers, when it's | not even better than the Amiga's???? | | Whatever. +--------------- Let me get this straight, Mike: your pet SlAB or CuBE or BoULDER or whatever isn't doing very well breaking into IBM or Apple markets, yet you claim it's already the victor? Aside from the obvious fact that if machine capabilities were the primary deciding factor IBM would be defunct, there seems to be something wrong with this reasoning. Maybe you need to learn how the REAL business world works. ++Brandon -- Me: Brandon S. Allbery Ham: KB8JRR/AA 10m,6m,2m,220,440,1.2 Internet: allbery@NCoast.ORG (restricted HF at present) Delphi: ALLBERY AMPR: kb8jrr.AmPR.ORG [44.70.4.88] uunet!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery KB8JRR @ WA8BXN.OH
allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery KB8JRR/AA) (05/10/91)
As quoted from <1991May7.235145.12420@sbcs.sunysb.edu> by dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio): +--------------- | In article <rbaGn&?=1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: | >nExt doesn't make microprocessors they buy them from Motorola. You | >know, the company that makes the CPU for the Amiga. | | Oh, I thought the Amiga uses a 6502 chip. Are you sure Motorola makes 6502s? +--------------- ????????? +--------------- | >nExts will contain the nExt generation 88K. I'll leave it up to you | >to determine how good that chip will be. | | It's not whether the CHIP is good; it's whether the socket it plugs into | is good. I'll leave it up to you to determine what that means. +--------------- It's what on the *other* end of the secket, more precisely. In any case, Michael's crowing over the 88000 is proof that Next-oids think memory and disk are absolutely free.... ++Brandon -- Me: Brandon S. Allbery Ham: KB8JRR/AA 10m,6m,2m,220,440,1.2 Internet: allbery@NCoast.ORG (restricted HF at present) Delphi: ALLBERY AMPR: kb8jrr.AmPR.ORG [44.70.4.88] uunet!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery KB8JRR @ WA8BXN.OH
Dickson@system-m.az05.bull.com (Paul Dickson) (05/10/91)
Michael D Mellinger <melling@cs.psu.edu> writes:
I don't really know TeX, but it is for writing documents, especially
ones with a lot of mathematical symbols. To italicize something you
would write \em{NeXT} (Something like this). There tools for two
different jobs.
TeX is a macro language for electronic typesetting. Because it is a
language, it is possible to do things not possible in wordprocessing
applications. It's also possible to use your favorite editor to work on
the input file.
I use TeX to publish a monthly newsletter. After creating the macros,
all I usually need to do is fill in the blanks. Though most people use
the more limited form of TeX called LaTeX.jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) (05/10/91)
Quoted from <aebG#y5!1@cs.psu.edu> by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): > would cost $100 on a Mac or PC. How much does Frame or Oracle cost on > a Mac? How much does Sculpt cost on a Mac? :) There's something funny about the Mac and software prices. > I'll let you in on a secret. A PC/XT is sufficient for most business > needs. > Try running Deluxe Paint on a PC/XT :-). Or Toolbook, WFW... See up there where the chap says "most business needs"? What do you think that means? > -Mike -- *** John Bickers, TAP, NZAmigaUG. jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz *** *** "Endless variations, make it all seem new" - Devo. ***
farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) (05/10/91)
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >In article <48624@ut-emx.uucp> greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) writes: >It was probably more like $99. I don't think the EA stuff was that >cheap. The games were $50 bucks, and except for Marble Madness, they >were mostly C64 ports. Remember Deluxe Paint, Deluxe Video, >Deluxe...? And the software was buggy as hell. Buggy, yes. But, ALL of the Deluxe series were written for the Amiga directly they were NOT ports from any other machine. Mellinger, I've sat here and watched your drivel go by for weeks now, and this is the first time (and the last time) I'll get involved in this debate. However, I would like to ask that you stop, and I'll tell you why - because you are beginning to make a damned fool out of yourself. It was well enough when you tried to paint a picture of the Next machine as a hot machine - that's something I would expect from any fan of any machine, even MS-DOS monstrosities. You have gone from that, however, to making unsupportable and just plain stupid statements about the Next line and equally unsupportable and ignorant statements about the Amiga, simply to support your own opinions. And you've had the damned gall to flame everyone else in this *Amiga* newsgroup because they've stated their opinions. Ease off, and make it easier on us all. We aren't stupid, you're not stupid, there's no need to act as if we all were. -- Mike Farren farren@well.sf.ca.us
sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Homicidal Lunatic) (05/10/91)
In article <aebG#y5!1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <1991May9.174002.2765@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > > > much do WP, Improv, Wingz, Diagram, Illustrator, DataPhile, TopDraw, > > Create, WriteNow(free, trick question) each cost? > > 4-500 dollars on up. Instead of 1-200 dollars for PC software. > >What do Lotus 123, WP, or WFW cost on a PC? not sure but Dbase was "on sale" for ~$450... from a "normal" price of $750. Not exactly cheap. **********************************PiRho**************************************** "All power comes from the barrel of a gun" // sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu \\ // Amiga makes it possible \X/
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/10/91)
In article <3520.tnews@templar.actrix.gen.nz> jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) writes: > Try running Deluxe Paint on a PC/XT :-). Or Toolbook, WFW... See up there where the chap says "most business needs"? What do you think that means? They need glorified typewriters and specialized calculators? Of course you are completely wrong, but I really don't want to debate this... People don't rush to use the XT at work because they like it. -Mike
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/11/91)
In article <24694@well.sf.ca.us> farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) writes: >In article <48624@ut-emx.uucp> greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) writes: >It was probably more like $99. I don't think the EA stuff was that >cheap. The games were $50 bucks, and except for Marble Madness, they >were mostly C64 ports. Remember Deluxe Paint, Deluxe Video, >Deluxe...? And the software was buggy as hell. Buggy, yes. But, ALL of the Deluxe series were written for the Amiga directly they were NOT ports from any other machine. Correct. I said the games were ports, not the Deluxe series. Mellinger, I've sat here and watched your drivel go by for weeks now, and this is the first time (and the last time) I'll get involved in this debate. However, I would like to ask that you stop, and I'll tell you why - because you are beginning to make a damned fool out of yourself. It was well enough when you tried to paint a picture of the Next machine as a hot machine - that's something I would expect from any fan of any machine, even MS-DOS monstrosities. You have gone from that, however, to making unsupportable and just plain stupid statements about the Next line and equally unsupportable and ignorant statements about the Amiga, simply to support your own For example? My claim that word processing on the Amiga is a bit lacking? Could you be more explicit? opinions. And you've had the damned gall to flame everyone else in this *Amiga* newsgroup because they've stated their opinions. Ease off, and make it easier on us all. We aren't stupid, you're not stupid, there's no need to act as if we all were. How many of my opinions are unsupportable? I'm more interested in debating the technical merits of the machine than your opinion of Steve Jobs, or what you think of NeXTWorld. -Mike
greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) (05/11/91)
In article <24694@well.sf.ca.us> farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) writes: >melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > > >>In article <48624@ut-emx.uucp> greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) writes: > >>It was probably more like $99. I don't think the EA stuff was that >>cheap. The games were $50 bucks, and except for Marble Madness, they >>were mostly C64 ports. Remember Deluxe Paint, Deluxe Video, >>Deluxe...? And the software was buggy as hell. I just wanted to point out that I didn't write this. I know the proper credit is given to Mike Mellinger for writing it, but I had to do a double-take before I could be sure I wasn't developing multiple personalities. :) No offense, Mike (Farren), but I don't even like the _thought_ of taking credit for Mellinger's posts... ;) Greg -- Greg Harp |"I was there to match my intellect on national TV, | against a plumber and an architect, both with a PhD." greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu| -- "I Lost on Jeopardy," Weird Al Yankovic
nwickham@triton.unm.edu (Neal C. Wickham) (05/11/91)
In article <u54Hc0?@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > > >How many of my opinions are unsupportable? I'm more interested in >debating the technical merits of the machine than your opinion of >Steve Jobs, or what you think of NeXTWorld. > >-Mike That was mostly me who blasphemed our lord Steve Jobs and who distorted the truth of NeXTWORLD. But "debating the technical merits of the machine" seemed like about the last thing on your mind. It seemed to me that Mom had bought you this killer machine and so you had to go out and try and kill with it. ...technical merits in what context? A rock has certain technical merits! You didn't and do not want to dabate a damn thing. You've just got a black piece of shit and are trying to hurt people with it. It is NeXT's main selling point. I just thought you were kind a cute and fun to play with. NCW
mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) (05/12/91)
In article <u54Hc0?@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <24694@well.sf.ca.us> farren@well.sf.ca.us (Mike Farren) writes: > > >In article <48624@ut-emx.uucp> greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) writes: > > >It was probably more like $99. I don't think the EA stuff was that > >cheap. The games were $50 bucks, and except for Marble Madness, they > >were mostly C64 ports. Remember Deluxe Paint, Deluxe Video, > >Deluxe...? And the software was buggy as hell. > > Buggy, yes. But, ALL of the Deluxe series were written for the Amiga directly > they were NOT ports from any other machine. > >Correct. I said the games were ports, not the Deluxe series. > DPaint was ported from the IBM PC (it was an inhouse tool called Prism). Deluxe Music was ported from the Mac. Deluxe Video was indeed written for the Amiga. The rest of the games were pretty bad (C64 ports). Marble Madness was ported from the ST (or at least both were done at the same time). > Mellinger, I've sat here and watched your drivel go by for weeks now, and > this is the first time (and the last time) I'll get involved in this debate. > However, I would like to ask that you stop, and I'll tell you why - because > you are beginning to make a damned fool out of yourself. It was well enough > when you tried to paint a picture of the Next machine as a hot machine - > that's something I would expect from any fan of any machine, even MS-DOS > monstrosities. You have gone from that, however, to making unsupportable > and just plain stupid statements about the Next line and equally unsupportable > and ignorant statements about the Amiga, simply to support your own > >For example? My claim that word processing on the Amiga is a bit >lacking? Could you be more explicit? > You don't know much about how the Amiga works, and it shows. > opinions. And you've had the damned gall to flame everyone else in this > *Amiga* newsgroup because they've stated their opinions. Ease off, and > make it easier on us all. We aren't stupid, you're not stupid, there's no > need to act as if we all were. > >How many of my opinions are unsupportable? I'm more interested in >debating the technical merits of the machine than your opinion of >Steve Jobs, or what you think of NeXTWorld. > Mike M: You are posting about 50 articles on the same crap every other day. How 'bout at least combining it into one thread, so I can reduce the modem overhead for my UUCP? Besides, you aren't going to sell any NeXts here. Why not post in one of the PC groups where you might actually accomplish something (killing a few PCs). >-Mike > -- **************************************************** * I want games that look like Shadow of the Beast * * but play like Leisure Suit Larry. * ****************************************************
dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (05/13/91)
In article <gf4Gneu$1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <1991May7.235145.12420@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes: > > > Oh, I thought the Amiga uses a 6502 chip. Are you sure Motorola makes 6502s? > > >In that case, I get to ignore the rest of your article. > >-mIKE Oh you really can't take a joke can you. First you insult me for thinking that I don't know that I have a 68000, and now you come up with another reason to ignore the facts. I find that quite often you are doing this. Maybe you should stop being so closed minded. You are just arguing because you have a computer that is nExt to dead, and you are trying to hype it as much as possible. It happened when the Atari ST died, it happened when the Amiga was on its knees, and it happened when the Apple IIGS was conceived. Admit it. Your goal is to find a reason why you didn't make a mistake in buying your computer. -- David Tiberio SUNY Stony Brook 2-3481 AMIGA DDD-MEN "If you think that we're here for the money, we could live without it. But the world isn't too good here, and it wasn't always like that." Un ragazzo di Casalbordino, Italia.
dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (05/13/91)
In article <1991May8.013806.14640@neon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) writes: >dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes: > >>In article <rbaGn&?=1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >>> >>> Unless nExt is making 30 mip custom chips, I think every system will soon >>> have 50 mip chips (that is if they have enough expansion slots; I would >>> hate to have to throw away a computer just because it has no expansion >>> slots). >>> >>>nExt doesn't make microprocessors they buy them from Motorola. You >>>know, the company that makes the CPU for the Amiga. Well, I was commenting that unless nExt makes its own chips, every other computer will be getting chips from Motorola. You know, the company that makes the CPU for the Mac, Amiga, nExt, Atari, Genesis... And that is only if the computers have expansion slots. > >> Oh, I thought the Amiga uses a 6502 chip. Are you sure Motorola makes 6502s? > > I hope you're being sarcastic here (no :-)'s though?) > Yes, I was being sarcastic. There are two types of people in the world. Some say a joke, and then comment that they made a joke. There is another group of people that makes jokes and relies upon the insight and intelligence of the listener to understand it. The first group requires a laugh track on TV shows. >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu >"And in the death, as the last few corpses lay rotting in the slimy > thoroughfare, the shutters lifted in inches, high on Poacher's Hill..." I want to take this time to say that in general it has been a fair discussion on this newsgroup, with the exception of mIKE, who tends to get everything except the truth... -- David Tiberio SUNY Stony Brook 2-3481 AMIGA DDD-MEN "If you think that we're here for the money, we could live without it. But the world isn't too good here, and it wasn't always like that." Un ragazzo di Casalbordino, Italia.
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/13/91)
In article <mykes.2516@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG> mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
You don't know much about how the Amiga works, and it shows.
You mean that when some people tell me that word processing on the
Amiga is great, I can't easily refute it? Correct. When people tell
me that the blitter awesome, but then we find out that it is
equivalent to a 68030 in processing power. Don't worry I'm learning.
And it's pretty safe to assume that I know a lot more about the Amiga
than most Amiga users know about the NeXT -- I was a big Amiga fan for
its first couple of years. In fact I still like the machine, but
something bette has come along(IMHO).
Mike M:
You are posting about 50 articles on the same crap every other day. How 'bout
at least combining it into one thread, so I can reduce the modem overhead for
my UUCP? Besides, you aren't going to sell any NeXts here. Why not post in
one of the PC groups where you might actually accomplish something (killing
a few PCs).
I have posted in the PC groups before. It's not like I'm just going
jump in and say the NeXT is great. If someone makes a unreasonable
post about the NeXT, I'll say something. In this group, it just so
happened that the threads took off and never stopped.
I would be quite content to let these threads die off, I would rather
hack all summer on the NeXT.
-Mikedtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) (05/13/91)
In article <1991May12.190016.28094@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes: >In article <gf4Gneu$1@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >> >>In article <1991May7.235145.12420@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes: >> >> >> Oh, I thought the Amiga uses a 6502 chip. Are you sure Motorola makes 6502s? >> >> >>In that case, I get to ignore the rest of your article. >> >>-mIKE > > Oh you really can't take a joke can you. First you insult me for thinking >that I don't know that I have a 68000, and now you come up with another reason Well, it sounds kind of mushy, but I was making a joke about the 6502. mIKE made it sound as though only nEXT will have 50 mip chips and no other computers will. >to ignore the facts. I find that quite often you are doing this. > -- David Tiberio SUNY Stony Brook 2-3481 AMIGA DDD-MEN "If you think that we're here for the money, we could live without it. But the world isn't too good here, and it wasn't always like that." Un ragazzo di Casalbordino, Italia.
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/13/91)
In article <1991May12.190706.28411@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes:
Well, I was commenting that unless nExt makes its own chips, every other
computer will be getting chips from Motorola. You know, the company that
makes the CPU for the Mac, Amiga, nExt, Atari, Genesis...
Let's see how well Apple, Atari, and Commodore make the transition to
the 88K, or any other chip.
And that is only if the computers have expansion slots.
You aren't going to be able to just drop an 88K in a computer. You
will need a redesigned CPU board. An expandable NeXT costs $2000 more
than the NeXTstation. If you don't need the expansion, it's
better(IMHO) to buy the NeXTstation and sell it when you want a bigger
and better machine. For college students, the extra price to get the
Cube is almost another NeXTstation minus the monitor.
I want to take this time to say that in general it has been a fair
discussion on this newsgroup, with the exception of mIKE, who tends to get
everything except the truth...
Yeah, the guy who likes the NeXT was wrong.
-Mikemelling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/13/91)
In article <1991May12.201647.29549@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes:
Well, it sounds kind of mushy, but I was making a joke about the 6502. mIKE
made it sound as though only nEXT will have 50 mip chips and no other
computers will.
Every company will be able to buy these chips, but how many will be
able to build a computer with them and not lose their current software
base? Is the Amiga OS written in C? How well will the blitter work
with a 50 mip CPU? The blitter is already a problem. What is the
highest graphics mode on the A3000? How does it compare to the
NeXTstation color, which is a million pixels with 4096 colors. My
guess is that backwards compatibility is taking up a lot of silicon.
The Amiga probably has about a dozen graphics modes by now.
-Mikedvljhg@cs.umu.se (J|rgen Holmberg) (05/13/91)
In article <a&8Hyun2@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <1991May12.190706.28411@sbcs.sunysb.edu> dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes: > > Well, I was commenting that unless nExt makes its own chips, every other > computer will be getting chips from Motorola. You know, the company that > makes the CPU for the Mac, Amiga, nExt, Atari, Genesis... > >Let's see how well Apple, Atari, and Commodore make the transition to >the 88K, or any other chip. It will be very interesting to see what will happen when they do. There is just one trouble with this argument at the moment, now is a long way away. A change to the 88k family won't happen until the difference in speed is rather hopeless. In two or three years serious development of 88k machines may begin at one or more of the larger vendors. A small platform like the NeXT may benefit from doing that now but I don't see it happening on a larger platform. The potential threat of no working software will make the others think twice. How about discussing this again in a years time when there might be a chance of making reasonable guesses? > > And that is only if the computers have expansion slots. > >You aren't going to be able to just drop an 88K in a computer. You >will need a redesigned CPU board. An expandable NeXT costs $2000 more Could you design a co-processor board for the amiga to use the strong features of, for example, an 88k or some other RISC chip? ( Dave Haynie alert! ) >than the NeXTstation. If you don't need the expansion, it's >better(IMHO) to buy the NeXTstation and sell it when you want a bigger >and better machine. For college students, the extra price to get the >Cube is almost another NeXTstation minus the monitor. > You have brought this up a number of times now. The problem is that the people reading this group tends to be computer literate and know that there are similar deals for the other platforms. Being computer literate they know that an expandable machine is a lot less prone to be out of date within a month or two. People in general also recognize that computers go down in price very fast. Decent resale value is more or less unheard of :-( > I want to take this time to say that in general it has been a fair > discussion on this newsgroup, with the exception of mIKE, who tends to get > everything except the truth... > >Yeah, the guy who likes the NeXT was wrong. > >-Mike Actually, most of your posting aren't too bad. The fact that you repeat yourself as often as you do makes most of us reading this suspect that we are talking to an Eliza simulation reacting on keywords, throwing in the odd insult now and then to make things interesting. If someone could supply you with a decent database of facts having you around wouldn't be too bad :-). /Jorgen -- email dvljhg@cs.umu.se | DUMII: Sentinel of the scales Everything I say is always true, just apply it to the right reality. "Credo, quia absurdum est." Credo (dei) in absurdum est?
MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu (That neat guy, Mark Sachs) (05/14/91)
In article <y=9H+ep2@cs.psu.edu>, melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) says: > >In article <1991May12.201647.29549@sbcs.sunysb.edu> >dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes: > > Well, it sounds kind of mushy, but I was making a joke about the 6502. E >mIK > made it sound as though only nEXT will have 50 mip chips and no other > computers will. > >Every company will be able to buy these chips, but how many will be >able to build a computer with them and not lose their current software >base? Is the Amiga OS written in C? How well will the blitter work Is the NeXT's? And even if it is, do you really believe all you'll have to do is recompile the source on the new processor? If you do I've got some Coleco Adams I'd like to sell you... Quite simply, if the processor is so different that the OS can't just be copied over and tweaked a bit, then it's different enough that the OS will have to be rewritten to work properly with it. This goes for both Amiga AND NeXT. >with a 50 mip CPU? The blitter is already a problem. What is the THE BLITTER, FOR THE LAST TIME, IS NOT A BLEEDIN' PROBLEM. It works alongside the CPU. If you don't want to use it, you don't have to! But if you want, you can offload the time-wasting memory moving and graphics tasks to it, freeing up valuable cycles on the main processor. Incidentally, you've been repeating over and over "68040 is more powerful than 68030 + blitter." Even if it is, so what? An 040 Amiga will actually be 68040 + blitter. So much for NeXT's supposed display speed advantage... >highest graphics mode on the A3000? How does it compare to the >NeXTstation color, which is a million pixels with 4096 colors. My The NeXTstation color also costs more than the gross national product of several third world countries. If you're keen on megapixel displays there's a monitor Commodore's pushing that gives you 1008x800 pixels. If it's colors you want, there are cards producing 16 million colors for less than $500. The U of Lowell card (coming out Real Soon Now (tm)) apparently gives you 1008x800 PLUS the 16 million colors, although I'm not absolutely certain about that one. This is the official Commodore upgrade thing, by the way. >guess is that backwards compatibility is taking up a lot of silicon. Not really. The Amiga isn't a difficult computer to keep backwards compatible. The custom chips HAVE been changed, and it works fine. Even a 68030 chip doesn't kill well-behaved applications (read: anyone who followed the rules clearly spelled out by Commodore in excruciating detail since Day One.) And the blitter is still an asset, no matter how fast the CPU is. (Though it would be even neater to have a faster one...) >The Amiga probably has about a dozen graphics modes by now. What's wrong with that? You pick the best one for the job. /Mark "Remixed for Common Household Appliances" Sachs IS: MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu\ | STEVEVAX Administration HQ, World Domination & Bake Sales Ltd. || // || | DISCLAIMER: It's NOT MY FAULT. Kei and Yuri forced me to say it.||\X/ AMIGA|| \== "I think this calls for some diabolical laughter! RAAH HA HA HA HA HA!" ==/
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (05/14/91)
In article <en8Hs$m2@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > Amiga is great, I can't easily refute it? Correct. When people tell > me that the blitter awesome, but then we find out that it is > equivalent to a 68030 in processing power. Don't worry I'm learning. 68030 processing power in a $500 machine is indeed awesome. Remember, the Amiga has an entry-level machine... -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
judge@alchemy.tcnet.ithaca.ny.us (rory toma) (05/15/91)
> > >The Amiga probably has about a dozen graphics modes by now. > > What's wrong with that? You pick the best one for the job. > Amen! I use 640X400 on the C= 1950 multisync monitor, and a 672X512 PAL mode (or something close, don't yell at me about the numbers) on a mono VGA monitor sitting next to the 1950. With all the modes that C= put in, it makesit very easy to use just about any monitor without using expensive add-ons. rory
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/15/91)
In article <91134.022556MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu> That neat guy, Mark Sachs <MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu> writes: Is the NeXT's? And even if it is, do you really believe all you'll have to do is recompile the source on the new processor? If you do I've got some Coleco Adams I'd like to sell you... The NeXT's OS is Mach so most of it is written in C. Quite simply, if the processor is so different that the OS can't just be copied over and tweaked a bit, then it's different enough that the OS will have to be rewritten to work properly with it. This goes for both Amiga AND NeXT. Right, NeXT has to sweat a little blood to get their OS ported, but developers will have an easy time getting their NeXT software ported to another CPU. My guess is maybe a week. >with a 50 mip CPU? The blitter is already a problem. What is the Incidentally, you've been repeating over and over "68040 is more powerful than 68030 + blitter." Even if it is, so what? An 040 Amiga will actually be 68040 + blitter. So much for NeXT's supposed display speed advantage... I keep saying that the 040 is more powerful than the blittter + 030 because Amiga users keep commenting that the NeXT cannot do animation. It seems to be a major necessity to have some sort of animation on a machine, and the reason some Amiga buyers would not buy a NeXT. How much will animation be increased on the A3000 by adding the 040? Probably not by much since the blitter is still being used to do the graphics. The NeXTstation color also costs more than the gross national product of several third world countries. If you're keen on megapixel displays there's a monitor Commodore's pushing that gives you 1008x800 pixels. If it's colors you want, there are cards producing 16 million colors for less than $500. The U of Lowell card (coming out Real Soon Now (tm)) apparently gives you 1008x800 PLUS the 16 million colors, although I'm not absolutely certain about that one. This is the official Commodore upgrade thing, by the way. How many products take advantage of those 16 million colors? Do applications have to be written specifically for the color boards? -Mike
MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu (That neat guy, Mark Sachs) (05/15/91)
In article <a&8Hyun2@cs.psu.edu>, melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) says: > >In article <1991May12.190706.28411@sbcs.sunysb.edu> >dtiberio@eeserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio) writes: > > Well, I was commenting that unless nExt makes its own chips, every other > computer will be getting chips from Motorola. You know, the company that > makes the CPU for the Mac, Amiga, nExt, Atari, Genesis... > >Let's see how well Apple, Atari, and Commodore make the transition to >the 88K, or any other chip. > > And that is only if the computers have expansion slots. > >You aren't going to be able to just drop an 88K in a computer. You >will need a redesigned CPU board. An expandable NeXT costs $2000 more >than the NeXTstation. If you don't need the expansion, it's >better(IMHO) to buy the NeXTstation and sell it when you want a bigger >and better machine. For college students, the extra price to get the >Cube is almost another NeXTstation minus the monitor. I see, I see. So: Joe College buys a $3500 Slab. A few years down the pike he discovers he needs the spiffy new $4000 Boulder. He sells the Slab for $1500 and buys the Boulder. Total cost: $6000. Or alternatively, he buys the $5500 Cube and adds the $1000 Boulder Expansion three years later, total cost $6500. Well, I see your point. Either way, NeXT has made a hell of a lot of money off Joe College, who could have bought a $3000 A3000, and then expanded it three years later for another $1000, total cost $4000. Yes, when the machine prices are as outrageous as NeXT's it does make more sense to junk the old one and buy a new one. Incidentally I think this is somewhat hypothetical... Sales of Amiga 500s and 2000s to college students will vastly overwhelm A3000 and Slab sales combined, because really, how many college freshmen have $3000 to drop on a computer no matter how fast it is? My $500 A500 suits me fine... and I'd still rather have it than a NeXT, so there. Nyah. :) /Mark "Remixed for Common Household Appliances" Sachs IS: MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu\ | STEVEVAX Administration HQ, World Domination & Bake Sales Ltd. || //AMIGA|| | DISCLAIMER: It's NOT MY FAULT. Kei and Yuri forced me to say it.||\X/ Power|| \== "I think this calls for some diabolical laughter! RAAH HA HA HA HA HA!" ==/
bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) (05/15/91)
In article <l46Hdbr4@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >I keep saying that the 040 is more powerful than the blittter + 030 >because Amiga users keep commenting that the NeXT cannot do animation. Mike, I am a NeXT user. I have one in my room, next to (and linked to) my Amiga 500. The NeXT cannot do animation as well as my 500. Period. I have no qualms about its speed. It's just not consistent or smooth. And don't give me any business about BreakApp or BoinkOut. Those are *tiny* objects. Show me a *smooth* 320X200 blit. As of now, I haven't seen *any* NeXT animation examples, within or without NeXT Inc., that have turned any Amiga users' heads. My good friend is a NeXT consultant. He can't come up with anything that shows off the NeXT as a workstation to do animation on. Are those movies in 'Scene' a standard format? Are they? No? Why not? Because they're hardcoded into the application? So as a user, then, *I* can't do animation on the NeXT at all. Hmm... >-Mike Dave Hopper | /// Anthro Creep | Academic Info Resources, Stanford |__ /// . . | Macincrap/UNIX Consultant bard@jessica. |\\\/// Ia! Ia! | -- Just remember: love is life, and Stanford.EDU | \XX/ Shub-Niggurath! | hate is living death. :Black Sabbath
hal@eecs.cs.pdx.edu (Aaron Harsh) (05/15/91)
In article <1991May15.061512.13294@leland.Stanford.EDU> bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) writes: >In article <l46Hdbr4@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >>I keep saying that the 040 is more powerful than the blittter + 030 >>because Amiga users keep commenting that the NeXT cannot do animation. > >My good friend is a NeXT consultant. He can't come up with anything >that shows off the NeXT as a workstation to do animation on. Are those >movies in 'Scene' a standard format? Are they? No? Why not? Because >they're hardcoded into the application? So as a user, then, *I* can't >do animation on the NeXT at all. Hmm... Hardcoded into the application? They're Postscript files in NextLibrary/Images. The names of the files are probably hardcoded into the application, though. I'm not saying that any of the NeXT's are as good as any of the Amigas for doing animation (except for a NeXTDimension system which defeats them all soundly and cost 5 times as much as a A300), but if the animations from scene were good enough to fool you, Display Postscript can't be that slow. Aaron Harsh hal@eecs.cs.pdx.edu
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/15/91)
In article <1991May15.061512.13294@leland.Stanford.EDU> bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) writes:
Mike, I am a NeXT user. I have one in my room, next to (and linked to)
my Amiga 500. The NeXT cannot do animation as well as my 500. Period.
I have no qualms about its speed. It's just not consistent or smooth.
And don't give me any business about BreakApp or BoinkOut. Those are
*tiny* objects. Show me a *smooth* 320X200 blit. As of now, I haven't
seen *any* NeXT animation examples, within or without NeXT Inc., that
have turned any Amiga users' heads.
I know that the Amiga 500 can do better animation, I have said that
myself in several posts. Why isn't it as good is of great interest to
me. One big problem with the NeXT is that the Mach kernal can't be
interrupted so you can't guarantee that you animation routines will be
acknowledge within a given time period. It has been stated in this
group that the 030 moves memory faster than the blitter, so the NeXT
should be decent at blasting images to the screen.
I don't have problem with the NeXT not being as good at animation, I
knew that it wasn't since 1(I do have an A2500 behind me). Many Amiga
users seem to think that 20 or 30fps is impossible on the NeXT. I
just want to set the record straight. The horsepower is there but
other variables come into play. Like interrupting the kernal, drawing
in a device independant language,etc. I think that if you sit any
Amiga user down in front of a NeXT who isn't doing video or who
doesn't want a $3000 Nintendo and he will chose the NeXT. It is the
better machine, all things considered.
My good friend is a NeXT consultant. He can't come up with anything
that shows off the NeXT as a workstation to do animation on. Are those
movies in 'Scene' a standard format? Are they? No? Why not? Because
they're hardcoded into the application? So as a user, then, *I* can't
do animation on the NeXT at all. Hmm...
Huh? I thought the movies were postscript. The Fish(best one IMHO)
is just a binary postscript file. You should be able to find the
files somewhere on the NeXT. Same with the eagle. You can add your
own movies if you want.
-Mikepeter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (05/15/91)
In article <l46Hdbr4@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > I keep saying that the 040 is more powerful than the blittter + 030 > because Amiga users keep commenting that the NeXT cannot do animation. Did you listen to the explanations of *why* the NeXT can't do animation? It's got nothing to do with the blitter. There are two reasons: 1) No way to do page-flipping. You have to bash all the bits in each scene into place on the display. Double-buffering is vital to animation. 2) Mach is not real-time. I know they're working on real-time Mach, but it's not there yet. > Probably not by much since the blitter is still being used to do the > graphics. No, it is not. The copper is being used to do the double buffering. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
stevep@wrq.com (Steve Poole) (05/16/91)
In article <1991May15.112103.22087@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > 1) No way to do page-flipping. You have to bash all the bits in each > scene into place on the display. Double-buffering is vital to > animation. I was under the impression that the NeXT frame buffer scheme did allow double buffering, at least on the 16-bit color implementation. Wrong? -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- INTEL 80x86: Just say NOP -- Internet: stevep@wrq.com -- AOL: Spoole -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
jet@karazm.math.uh.edu (J Eric Townsend) (05/16/91)
In article <5+aHafz4@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >I think that if you sit any >Amiga user down in front of a NeXT who isn't doing video or who >doesn't want a $3000 Nintendo and he will chose the NeXT. It is the >better machine, all things considered. I think you're wrong. I traded my 68010 UNIX box for a A2000. I had a chance to buy a file-sale cube or an A3000. I took the A3000. Why? (Oh yeah, forgot to say, my A2000 and all my cool video/imaging gear got stolen, that was my incentive to buy a new computer. Otherwise, I would have just put a bigger CPU in the 2000.) 0. I've owned UNIX before. It's fun, but it's like having a job that doesn't pay. (Not to mention I have the sort of job that keeps a Sparc-2 on my desk and an Intel iPSC/860 parallel machine down the hall. Pfhprt to 030 vs 040 wars. :-) 1. I like having software I can afford. FrameMaker is cool (I use it at work all the time), but I could never afford it for the house. Period. I can afford DTP packages for the Amiga (which, while not as good as FrameMaker, are better than a NeXT and no DTP). 2. I like multitasking, but I don't need multiuser for a home box. Things like uids, process trees, etc etc etc, have no place on a home box that will *never* have more than one person on it. I'd like virtual memory, but ram is cheap enough that this isn't a big problem. I'd rather a real-time OS than virtual memory. (Even if I wanted to run multiuser, where can I get a X-style "NeXT terminal" so my SO can use Frame from the other room while I use the console?) 4. Color, yeah, color. 5. Lots of cool peripherals already exist: SMPTE, serial expanders, video toys, audio toys (including a DSP card, finally :-), neat stuff for card development. If I had another $3000 to spend on a computer, I'd seriously consider a NeXT. I miss having a UNIX box at home. But not enough to buy a machine that doesn't do the sort of things I need to do at home. -- J. Eric Townsend - jet@uh.edu - bitnet: jet@UHOU - vox: (713) 749-2126 Skate UNIX or bleed, boyo...(UNIX is a trademark of Unix Systems Laboratories). [As soon as my Amiga 3000 arrives, it'll be Skate Motorola time!]
kris@tpki.toppoint.de (Kristian Koehntopp) (05/16/91)
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >Is the Amiga OS written in C? Yes. Except for the scheduler. This part of the OS is, if present, always written in native machine language. >How well will the blitter work >with a 50 mip CPU? Fine. If your CPU is faster than your blitter, go and emulate the blitter in software. This is no loss in speed, because the blitter does work in hardware, which had otherwise to be done in software anyway. This is no problem at all. Kristian Kristian Koehntopp, Harmsstrasse 98, 2300 Kiel, +49 431 676689 (lisp 'kristian) NIL
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/16/91)
In article <1991May15.171002.23789@milton.u.washington.edu> stevep@wrq.com (Steve Poole) writes:
I was under the impression that the NeXT frame buffer scheme did allow
double buffering, at least on the 16-bit color implementation. Wrong?
I heard something about double-buffering but it might have been in
reference to the NeXT Dimension board. I'll check into it.
-Mikejbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) (05/17/91)
Quoted from <5+aHafz4@cs.psu.edu> by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): > I know that the Amiga 500 can do better animation, I have said that > myself in several posts. Why isn't it as good is of great interest to > me. One big problem with the NeXT is that the Mach kernal can't be This is the wrong newsgroup to be expressing such interests. Ask the other NeXT folks. If the OS cripples something as basic as animation, then what else must be crippled too, and only acceptable because the CPU is relatively fast? > knew that it wasn't since 1(I do have an A2500 behind me). Many Amiga > users seem to think that 20 or 30fps is impossible on the NeXT. I I'm sure we all believe it's possible, once you turf out the OS and beef up the display. From what you've been saying, it appears even 640K PClones with VGA animate better than a NeXT. > -Mike -- *** John Bickers, TAP, NZAmigaUG. jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz *** *** "Endless variations, make it all seem new" - Devo. ***
bret@orac.UUCP (Bret Indrelee) (05/23/91)
In article <1991May14.125542.9479@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >In article <en8Hs$m2@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >> Amiga is great, I can't easily refute it? Correct. When people tell >> me that the blitter awesome, but then we find out that it is >> equivalent to a 68030 in processing power. Don't worry I'm learning. > >68030 processing power in a $500 machine is indeed awesome. > ><peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>. The Amiga came out in '85. There were not any '30 based anything then. Also, the blitter takes care of graphics. I know I can find a better use for the '30 CPU than drawing characters on the screen. Hopefully, (hint, hint) C= will come out with a blitter with a 32 bit data bus soon. Right now, the blitter with a 16 bit data bus is about as fast as a '30 using 32-bit accesses. The blitter is great. Just ask the graphics guru's. I have notes from a SIGGRAPH '84 class on using the blitbit primitive to do all kinds of great stuff. The TI chips that lots of graphics boards use as processors have a blitbit operation. Amiga had it in '85. In silicon. On a personal computer. -Bret -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bret Indrelee | <This space left intentionally blink> bret@orac.edgar.mn.org | ;^)
s902113@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Luke Mewburn) (05/24/91)
bret@orac.UUCP (Bret Indrelee) writes: >In article <1991May14.125542.9479@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >>In article <en8Hs$m2@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >>> Amiga is great, I can't easily refute it? Correct. When people tell >>> me that the blitter awesome, but then we find out that it is >>> equivalent to a 68030 in processing power. Don't worry I'm learning. >> >>68030 processing power in a $500 machine is indeed awesome. >> >><peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>. >The Amiga came out in '85. There were not any '30 based anything then. >Also, the blitter takes care of graphics. I know I can find a better >use for the '30 CPU than drawing characters on the screen. >Hopefully, (hint, hint) C= will come out with a blitter with a 32 bit >data bus soon. Right now, the blitter with a 16 bit data bus is about >as fast as a '30 using 32-bit accesses. >The blitter is great. Just ask the graphics guru's. I have notes from >a SIGGRAPH '84 class on using the blitbit primitive to do all kinds of >great stuff. The TI chips that lots of graphics boards use as processors >have a blitbit operation. Amiga had it in '85. In silicon. On a >personal computer. Yeah, but since '85 they haven't done anything to improve it. This is my biggest bitch about C=. Sure, they've given you an architecture to plug in slots to improve your machine, but then you are doing exactly what you used to abuse IBM's for, ie. "You can get a card too........". The 3000 is a great improvement, but having a CPU which is better than a graphics co-pro is stupid.... Will they improve. Millions of Amiga owners can only hope. >-Bret >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Bret Indrelee | <This space left intentionally blink> >bret@orac.edgar.mn.org | ;^) -- ____________________________________________________________________________ | | | | Luke Mewburn (Zak) | This side for lease... | | s902113@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au | (No disclaimer, can't afford it:-) |
Alex_Topic@resbbs.UUCP (Alex Topic) (05/26/91)
Yeah we can only hope CBM redesigns the custom chips, although I haven't
been too impressed with CBM lately. I mean they are not doing much in some
areas. Like research and developement, advertisement! And that where the
money is!
The only reason I got an Amiga rather than a IBM is because it has
custom chips, which give it power at a cheap price...etc Plus an out of the
box multi-taskin operateing system.
Personally CBM should really try to establish a 1 meg Amiga market!
screw 512k!! hmmm I think 512k fast ram and 512k chip ram is the perfect
way to do stuff. Have all your code in fast ram so its at full speed and the
rest for graphic and audio stuff in chip ram! Now you have a fair amount of
power!
Anyways I think there is need for improvement with CBM? anyone
disagree? Oh well I guess its tough when everything is practically IBM. hmm
but surely CBM should be ahead of Apple!....heh which produce lame machines!
Just the boreing CPU with i/o cards system! Which is the worst
micro-computer design! Amiga has the best idea... CPU, custom
chips! And if CBM doesn't do something I hope someone else does...heh
later..
A.t.manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) (05/27/91)
In article <Alex_Topic.3596@resbbs.UUCP>, Alex_Topic@resbbs.UUCP (Alex Topic) writes: > Yeah we can only hope CBM redesigns the custom chips, although I haven't > been too impressed with CBM lately. I mean they are not doing much in some > areas. Like research and developement, advertisement! And that where the > money is! I have not been real impressed with your performance lately either. What, you say "You don't even know me!". I say, that did not stop you from passing judgement on things you know nothing about. So shape up! Spend more money on books and classes! That is where the _real_ money is! > The only reason I got an Amiga rather than a IBM is because it has > custom chips, which give it power at a cheap price...etc Plus an out of the > box multi-taskin operateing system. And has those things changed? Has any other computer company offered those things at the price Commodore has? > Personally CBM should really try to establish a 1 meg Amiga market! > screw 512k!! hmmm I think 512k fast ram and 512k chip ram is the perfect > way to do stuff. Have all your code in fast ram so its at full speed and the > rest for graphic and audio stuff in chip ram! Now you have a fair amount of > power! Well the 512k chip and 512k fast on a Amiga 500 or A2000 does not improve performance by much. The memory that is between 512k-1 megabyte does not give you the tremendous boost in speed as it does when you expand beyond 1 megabyte. > Anyways I think there is need for improvement with CBM? anyone > disagree? Oh well I guess its tough when everything is practically IBM. hmm Yes, I disagree on the points you made. The improvements that need to be made are mostly with the US Sales company and _not_ the Research and Development folks at Commodore International. Sure, I have a wish list. I also have a certain amount of faith. You don't know what Commodore is currently working on, and neither do I. I do feel that they are heading in the direction that I want to see. So, considering that, I have no complaints. > but surely CBM should be ahead of Apple!....heh which produce lame machines! > Just the boreing CPU with i/o cards system! Which is the worst > micro-computer design! Amiga has the best idea... CPU, custom > chips! And if CBM doesn't do something I hope someone else does...heh They are ahead of Apple. :-) > later.. > > A.t. -mark= +--------+ ================================================== | \/ | Mark D. Manes "The Most lopsided deal since ..." | /\ \/ | manes@vger.nsu.edu | / | (804) 683-2532 "Make up your own mind! - AMIGA" +--------+ ================================================== "I protest Captain! I am not a merry man!" - Lt. Worf
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (05/27/91)
Custom chips, nothing! What makes the Amiga great is the software! -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (05/28/91)
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > Custom chips, nothing! What makes the Amiga great is the software! Absolutely correct! Almost anyone could make a faster/better piece of hardware, but without corresponding software it's nothing special. kevin <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>
Alex_Topic@resbbs.UUCP (Alex Topic) (05/29/91)
But hey what makes the software great? hmmm... you need good hardware in
order to make good software. To me a computer must have good hardware in
order
to convince me to buy it. And if it has good hardware it must have good
software. Unfortunatly the Amiga could be pushed alittle farther in some
areas. 1 in being have games with more than just 16 colors. Finally you are
seeing some that are atleast useing 32!
Also I think most games should be done in PAL mode, it just looks
way sharper and you don't notice much flicker. Oh well just my opinion!
l8'er!
A.t.Alex_Topic@resbbs.UUCP (Alex Topic) (05/29/91)
Yep well some of your points I agree with, like its CBM's sales
department fault not the CBM r&d department. Its pathetic and sad to see MAC
and IBM commercials, it not see a single Amiga commercial this year.
Another thing we have seen, well I have lately. That there is
some good 24-bit color boards out for the Amiga, but only 3rd party stuff. I
think there is DCTV, COLORBURST(My fav.) and HAM-E. CBM should try to bring
alot of the stuff in the COLORBURST board into the Amiga custom chips! I
think in the HAM-E board it gives you 256 colors by have 4-bitplane hi'rez
screen, which in low'rez will give you 8-bitplanes. I think that 256 colors
in low'rez should be introduced in all Amiga's! This for sure will help the
Amiga in many area's. Mainly games and Dvideo stuff. Oh well buts that is the
biggest markets on the Amiga anyhow!
But YES I do like the Amiga, and I will keep it untill or whenever
it dies. Personally I doubt it will die, not untill the new COMPUTER
technology comes out... Like the PHOTONIC microprocessors, and thats when all
the standard cpus will die! Like everything nothing lasts forever..heh l8'er!
A.t.Alex_Topic@resbbs.UUCP (Alex Topic) (05/29/91)
But what I mean is that if you have a faster/better piece of hardware
there
is a better chance that the software will be more Powerful! For instance look
at the animation programs on the IBM and AMIGA. The Amiga can blow away a
standard 12mhz AT, cause of its BLITTER. Because of the hardware power you
will see better software! The way I choose a computer is 1st: PRICE? 2nd:
Hardware 3rd: Software..... The Amiga is cheap, has good hardware, and has
lots of software in all areas..ect
Oh well and being a programmer I want to know my limits. And I hate
limits!! l8'er!
A.t.