billc@cryo.UUCP (William J. Coldwell) (05/31/91)
In article <1991May30.070050.652@techbook.com> waynekn@techbook.com (Wayne Knapp) writes: >billc@cryo.UUCP (William J. Coldwell) writes: > >>In article <1991May24.005621.3479@techbook.com> waynekn@techbook.com (Wayne Knapp) writes: >>>billc@cryo.UUCP (William J. Coldwell) writes: [me generalizing direct marketing methods deleted] >.>That is pure bull. [me supporting dealers "selling" products deleted] >While there a lot of software on the Amiga, esp. relating to graphics, there >is really very little highend software. Take packages like TIPS, Alias, >Wavefront, Pixar Renderman render and you see very few of these in dealers. The packages mentioned above require specialized hardware also, A:JM doesn't (other than a 680x0 accelerator). This also implies that your software is on the same level. >Even the higher end software the Amiga does have is hard to get through >dealers. (examples are Carigali, Animation:Jouneryman, TAD; all three >which have been in the Commodore booth at Siggraph before.) Not really, my local dealer has a catalog from a distributor that has both Carigali [sic] (including the "Broadcast" version) and TAD (and ADPRO), but not Animation:Jouneryman [sic]. As for Siggraph, 1) riding along on someone else's ticket is not the same as having your own booth. 2) Ami-Shows or The Hunter Group have this uncanny way of scheduling shows at the same time as Siggraph. >>>Besides, going though dealers increases the cost of the product. >>Hmm. I find it cheaper to go through dealers or (ack!) mail order than >>to do direct to the source. >This is because most distributors require a 60% discount off the price that >the product is listed to sell for. So most people that go through dealers >and distributors set the list price of the product 2.5x greater than the >real price. They don't set the "retail price", you do. I have _never_ seen any dealer selling for OVER the retail price of a product. >That would mean that Animation:Jouneryman would list for $1250, still cheap >for a full package, but alot for an Amiga program. However, we decided to >sell direct to customers for the same price as dealers, hence the current >price of $500. A dealer always marks up the price of software, how else >can he make a living. I thought that the idea was to work with distributors and dealers to get your product out there and not to undercut them. If people want to buy direct from you, then they pay the full price. If they want to buy from their local dealer, then they pay the dealers price (usually less than the retail price). Lastly, they can buy from mail-order houses for usually less than the dealers, but then they have the same "dishing out the $$$ without seeing it" problem. >Most companies don't sell direct, but we do. That is the difference. On the contrary, most companys DO sell direct, they also sell through distributors and direct dealers. [me talking about advertising (not!), direct sales only, and user worth deleted] >We do advertise, just not to you. We also do sell through some of our own >dealers. We just don't see to dealers at 50 to 60% of our price. Also, >Animation:Journeyman is worth $500 to a lot of people, maybe not you, but >then you aren't one of our customers. That's obvious, otherwise you wouldn't still be in business. If I were a perspective buyer of such a system, how would I find out about it? The reviews in magazines are the only thing that I see even mention your product. >>>AutoDesk's simalar system sell for $2995. Is that >>>the kind of pricing you want? >>Who is selling more? I'll put my money on AutoDesk. Price is not the >>issue. >You would lose, but anyway since it clear you don't have either product, >why are you talking? Just to make noise? It takes two to argue. ADA has more of a market share then A:JM will EVER have, out of the shear default of the machine that it is on. There would be little point in me owning AutoDesk Animator since I don't have an AT or 3|486 to run it on. As for owning A:JM, I have yet to see it other than the demo that Ken gave at the Northwest Amiga Group last year. There it was still unfinished and would call that great Beta meditator. My dealer doesn't have/carry it, so I can't weighs it's value now (even if I _wanted_ to buy it). I talk because I can, to those who don't want to listen, it's noise. [me talking about dealers having to deal with "personalized" protection deleted] >No, it isn't. Just requires an extra step. The product you sell to a >dealers uses key disk copy protection, the user then must register to get >the personalized copy protected version. Why protect it? I can't see any reason to protect productivity software. Piracy of your program isn't going to stop if you protect it. This isn't just a beef with your program, but with all productivity programs that have ANY type of protection (especially manual look-up) [leaving the realm of this subject]. >>> What Jason wants is for us to sell him Jouneryman for say $250 and then >>>he could sell it for say $400. >>Gee, that sounds so unreasonable? That means that I would probably pay >>~$300 for it mail-order. >Yes, it is unreasonable. You see, he wants to be able to sell the product >for less than we sell it for. Tough luck, the price of Jman is $500, and it >won't go down. In fact if I have my way it will double within a year, or a >least a much better version of it will carry a higher price. We prefer free updates, or very inexpensive updates (like cost of disks, the manual and shipping). If you feel that you can sell A:JM for $1000 as it currently stands - I'd be impressed, but your newly installed base would pissed that they could have gotten it for 1/2 price. [me saying lowering price selling 10x more through dealers will be the same or better than direct only deleted] >Since, I have access to sales figures, I can tell you that going though >dealers would NOT give us then amount of extra sales needed at least at a >lower price that would make dealers happy. Is this because you feel that a dealer couldn't sell you product? It seems to me that if I can get a dealer to stock 3 of ProductX (sorry Steve T.) then that is 3 more units that I could not have sold direct (as long as they were able to sell it). >>Yeh, you probably spend at most $40 on the whole package. The main cost is >>feeding your developers (and we haven't heard too much from Ken lately - did >>he die from starvation? ;-)) The whole 3DPro1.0 package cost ~$40, and I >>can't fathom that your packaging is more extensive. >You have no idea of what you are talking about. It is clear you don't >know anything about the costs selling or supporting a product. Also it is >clear you have no idea of who does what is Hash Enterprises. Just for your >interest, the packaging cost is the least of the expenses. Gee, since I have no idea of what I'm talking about, I sure do bring up some good points. ;-) [/sarcasm mode on] Why no Wayne, I know nothing about the costs of selling or supporting a product. [/sarcasm mode off (sorta)] As for who does what in Hash, it's not something that I would lose sleep over. Packaging cost is the least of your expenses? Really? I couldn't have possibly said that above, now could I? >Anyway, as for Ken, he just refuses to reply to any more of these articles, >because he thinks there are just too many people on this net just flapping >their jaws without any brainwork. I'll reserve my first comment, but as for Ken, I do miss chatting with him. Ken is a little more objective and doesn't take things as a direct personal attack. >>>The only change we have made in pricing is NO DISCOUNTS to dealers. >>That doesn't sound like a change at all. That was the issue to begin with. >SO WHY THE SENSELESS FLAMING FROM YOU? I wouldn't call it "senseless" or I wouldn't be replying. Truthfully, I'm not really "flaming", just asking valid questions and making comments. >.>People are >.>welcome to resale the program, but they are going to lose money if they sell >.>it less for less than we do. >>Don't worry, they won't. >.>The facts are, that direct sells have always accounted for a very large part >.>of our sales. In fact we seldom made money on software sales to distributors/ >.>gone belly up! Second it is very hard to get distributors and dealers to >.>pay. They often delay paying and then later just return "used" software. >.Hmm. If this were the case, then all of the Amiga developers who went >>through distributors/direct dealers would be in the same position. This >>just isn't the case. See above statement about "worth". >Many Amiga developers have left the Amiga for the above reasons. The only >reason we have survived at all is because we do so much direct business. ><< lots of senseless junk cut >> >>You seem to be missing the point on how dealers work in this grand scheme >>of selling products. You would be making the most money since your sales >>would be direct. Your dealers would make the next largest amount, then >>your distributors, then mail order houses. It's all based on quanity and >>quality. >Believe me, I know far more about dealers than you realise. First of all >most dealers buy from distributors. Second, you have no idea of the kind >mark ups involved along the way. Third if the wrold was as you think it >is then we would be using dealers. I do know the kinds of mark ups along the way. Before 3-D Pro was finished, I've done the dealer thing, including dealing with distributors. So, I have a well rounded approach from the development of products all the way to the distributors, dealers, and finally to the end user - plus support after the sale. As for the world being the way I think that it is, well, there are quite a few 3DPro's (and other products I've worked on) out there. [various ray tracing views deleted] >Output can only be as good as then input. Besides photorealism has very >little to do with animation. Not necessarily, that's what the AW article was trying to prove. Depends on what direction you are headed as to whether PR is for you. _I_ would prefer a photorealistic animation, if I had that option (and depending on the circumstances). [me talking about ray tracing deleted] >Because ray-tracing is sometimes useful for animation. It is a useful tool, >but it is a very long shot from being the whole game. Our Siggraph >animation "Joyride" has very little ray tracing in it, but it looks great! I agree with you on the first two statements, but haven't seen ANYTHING created with A:JM other than 1 clown picture. >Besides, who make AmigaWorld God, or who even cares what they think? How else would I know about your product? There have been many times that I have wondered about the current state of Hash until I see a little blurb somewhere. FYI: 3DPro was originally presented to Martin Hash for marketing. He stated that he didn't have the money to market the product and put us in touch with PP&S - to which we are very grateful. >waynekn@techbook.COM ...!{tektronix!nosun,uunet}techbook!waynekn -- William J. Coldwell PLink: CRYO I'm a 3-DPro, wouldn't you Amiga Attitude Adjuster BIX: wjcoldwell like to be a 3-DPro2 ? Cryogenic Software UUCP:billc@cryo 3-D PROFESSIONAL 2.0 #define STD_DSCLMR "The above opinions are mine. You can't have them."