jet@karazm.math.uh.edu (J Eric Townsend) (05/16/91)
In article <CIMARRON.91May15073323@erewhon.postgres.Berkeley.EDU> cimarron@erewhon.postgres.Berkeley.EDU (Cimarron D. Taylor </>) writes: > and there is also this nifty new ``NeXTdimension'' board which > features 30 fps JPEG video and a lot of other mondo features which So the PEG bugs are fixed? It actually functions now? What's base price on a NeXT w/ dimension + genlock + a ton of interactive multimedia, modeling and titling software? That's what I thought. Buy an Amiga, buy a Toaster, get a CDTV and developer's kit, buy AmigaVision... :-) -- J. Eric Townsend - jet@uh.edu - bitnet: jet@UHOU - vox: (713) 749-2126 Skate UNIX or bleed, boyo...(UNIX is a trademark of Unix Systems Laboratories). [As soon as my Amiga 3000 arrives, it'll be Skate Motorola time!]
tj@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Terry Jones) (05/16/91)
SO they have the toaster for the Amiga 3000 available do they? Last I heard I had to buy an old technology Amiga 2000 or 2500 to put a Toaster in. The NeXT box (when it is shipping with JPEG functional which I do not think is presently the case thanks to C-Cube!) will do something the Amiga will probably never do. Edit digital video on disk. There are lots of other things a NeXT will do much more easily than an Amiga, like exist cleanly in an ethernet university environment. The counter arguments could go on for both sides forever. Different machines are more appropriate for different applications, and Amiga is great at NTSC video in some areas, but there is often a larger picture that the platform has to fit into. I find than your comments are a bit obnoxious sounding, come off the soap box for a while, tell us what your preferred platform does well, help when help is needed, but don't attack....
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (05/16/91)
In article <1991May16.140513.4946@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> tj@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Terry Jones) writes: >The NeXT box (when it is shipping with JPEG functional which I do not think >is presently the case thanks to C-Cube!) will do something the Amiga will >probably never do. Edit digital video on disk. There are lots of other >things a NeXT will do much more easily than an Amiga, like exist cleanly in >an ethernet university environment. > I seem to remember being able to do this today, actually. Requires a digitizer and a program such as ADPro which manipulates 24 images. JPEG makes the process easier, admittedly, in that it saves disk-drive room. But there's no reason you can't do just what you described. -- Ethan The constitution isn't perfect, but it's better than what we have now.
jsibley@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James Sibley) (05/17/91)
In article <1991May16.140513.4946@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> tj@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Terry Jones) writes: >SO they have the toaster for the Amiga 3000 available do they? Last I heard >I had to buy an old technology Amiga 2000 or 2500 to put a Toaster in. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^?? There is nothing "old" in my 2500. The only thing it doesn't have is the 32 bit bus and the new graphics chip (which I could get for it..) It is just as capable as a 3000 as I'm sure many owners of a 2500 will tell you.. >The NeXT box (when it is shipping with JPEG functional which I do not think >is presently the case thanks to C-Cube!) will do something the Amiga will >probably never do. Edit digital video on disk. There are lots of other >things a NeXT will do much more easily than an Amiga, like exist cleanly in >an ethernet university environment. And how much was that again?? Oh yeah, I forgot, there's that money tree farm growing in Montana where they just let anyone help themselves.. I've got to go there someday.. -- James Sibley Nous Sommes Du Soleil Seeking the truth about lemon curry. We Are Of The Sun jsibley@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu We Can See Amiga: an extrapolation of the human mind. -YES-
mark@masscomp.westford.ccur.com (Mark Thompson) (05/17/91)
In article <1991May16.140513.4946@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> tj@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Terry Jones) writes: >The NeXT box (when it is shipping with JPEG functional which I do not think >is presently the case thanks to C-Cube!) will do something the Amiga will >probably never do. Edit digital video on disk. A testament from the grossly shortsighted and uninformed. Your ignorance is overwhelming. First of all, JPEG is not intended for moving video, that is the realm of MPEG. JPEG is being used by a few companies to implement digital video editing, but image quality is fair at best. Because JPEG cannot take advantage of image to image coherency, it must sacrifice image quality to achieve the compression needed for real time video recording, playback, and editing from disk. MPEG addresses this problem as that was what it was meant to do. Commodore purportedly is already talking to MPEG chip manufacturers in an effort to include this technology in the Amiga's long list of multimedia capabilities. I might add that it is currently possible to edit and playback digital video from disk on the Amiga using DCTV. Real time recording is coming soon. >There are lots of other >things a NeXT will do much more easily than an Amiga, like exist cleanly in >an ethernet university environment. You truly are uninformed. On that note, I'm out of here. These NeXT wars are disturbingly non-productive and it appears that all you want is a war. %~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~% % ` ' Mark Thompson CONCURRENT COMPUTER % % --==* RADIANT *==-- mark@westford.ccur.com Principal Graphics % % ' Image ` ...!uunet!masscomp!mark Hardware Architect % % Productions & General Nuisance % % % ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) (05/18/91)
In article <1991May16.140513.4946@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca>, tj@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Terry Jones) writes: > SO they have the toaster for the Amiga 3000 available do they? Last I heard > I had to buy an old technology Amiga 2000 or 2500 to put a Toaster in. The Toaster is not yet available for the A3000. However, I don't recall the Toaster being the point of the entire earlier post. There are many products both hardware and software that are available for the entire Amiga line of computers that allow instant impressive video capability. > > The NeXT box (when it is shipping with JPEG functional which I do not think > is presently the case thanks to C-Cube!) will do something the Amiga will > probably never do. Edit digital video on disk. There are lots of other > things a NeXT will do much more easily than an Amiga, like exist cleanly in > an ethernet university environment. What do you base this on? I think it very likely that JPEG will come to the Amiga. I would even be bold enough to say that probably sooner than later. I really do not see a specail 'feature' in the NeXT that makes this type of work more 'do-able'. As far as existing 'cleanly' in a ethernet environment goes. I would be interested in your idea of 'clean'. Amigas have been able to use 'ethernet' since 1986. Not exactly nor really exciting technology if you ask me. > > The counter arguments could go on for both sides forever. Different machines > are more appropriate for different applications, and Amiga is great at NTSC > video in some areas, but there is often a larger picture that the platform > has to fit into. I agree. I think there is room for more than one hardware solution to problems. I think this was the original reason for the first 'pro-amiga' post. You see the PC-noids and the Mac-freaks (there I said it!) and their publications _always_ ignore better technology _if_ it is not MS/DOS or Mac compatible. As with most things what is "best" is often disregarded based on market-share, which is too bad. You as a NeXT owner will get to experience this 'frustration' as well. :-) > > I find than your comments are a bit obnoxious sounding, come off the soap > box for a while, tell us what your preferred platform does well, help when > help is needed, but don't attack.... They were a bit obnoxious, your comments were not much better. But, it does point out that even in multimedia the blinders are firmly in place all around. -mark= +--------+ ================================================== | \/ | Mark D. Manes "The Most lopsided deal since ..." | /\ \/ | manes@vger.nsu.edu | / | (804) 683-2532 "Make up your own mind! - AMIGA" +--------+ ================================================== "I protest Captain! I am not a merry man!" - Lt. Worf
martin@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Daniel Martin) (05/18/91)
In article <1991May15.193236.4712@menudo.uh.edu> jet@karazm.math.uh.edu (J Eric Townsend) writes: >In article <CIMARRON.91May15073323@erewhon.postgres.Berkeley.EDU> cimarron@erewhon.postgres.Berkeley.EDU (Cimarron D. Taylor </>) writes: >> and there is also this nifty new ``NeXTdimension'' board which >> features 30 fps JPEG video and a lot of other mondo features which > >So the PEG bugs are fixed? It actually functions now? What's base >price on a NeXT w/ dimension + genlock + a ton of interactive multimedia, >modeling and titling software? That sound like the Mac defensive arguments "Sure the toaster is wonderful: does everything a TV studio does for less than 5000$, but have they fixed their latest bugs? Have they passed FCC? And who owns amigas... yak yak yak. For your information: NeXT Station, 100 Meg, 8 Meg ram, BW Monitor, 68040, DSP, softwares (UNIX) etc. for 4995$ list. NeXT Dimension board, 32 bitplanes, 8 bitplanes alpha channel. A really impressive card. 3995$ list. Educationnal discount available and very interesting. From: Walter Daugherity, September 18, 1990 "...The 32-bit color board has a 33 MHz i860 (64-bit RISC) graphics processor and a JPEG compression coprocessor from C-Cube, which lets you take live video and compress and store it in real time (up to 60 minutes on the optional 1.4 gigabyte internal hard disk). All standard video inputs and outputs are supported. At 30,000 polygons per second (Gouraud shading, triangular, meshed), this "true color" runs as fast as or faster than the 4 gray-level monochrome NeXT's." Software: one or two softwares directly aimed at multimedia. Geesh, a TON! Can you list some of your TON of MULTIMEDIA software? Genlocks: the NeXTDimension card can be use as a genlock with video (S-VHS) output, but I don't know yet if you can display live video in a window with it (digital). >That's what I thought. What did you thought? That the amiga offer more and cost less? Well think again. Amiga is an honest offer, but so is the NeXT. On my NeXT I have a large display, a very good interface, display postscript, Interface Builder, good sound (DSP), good object oriented languages, multimedia e-mail facilities, fax integration, etc. all standard. The amiga family doesn't. Hear, at home I have a A3000. Cost me around 6000$ CDN. Been a developer since 1986. I like it and work profesionnaly on it. But you must open your eyes and look at what's on the market. I wouldn't put a NeXT at home (yet), but neither an Amiga in my buisness office (yet). In many labs like here, UNIX, X Windows and ethernet are mandatory. Screen less than 16" are small and resolution less than 1000x1000 is unsatisfactory. When the A3000UX will be shipped with the 68040, large screen, color, DSP, etc. I wonder how much they will sell their machine. Nothing is free, and competition is harsh. Let me tell you that NeXT have set one of the most interesting price war in the Workstation market. So, what are your solutions in the 1280x1024x24 RGB display area? How much does it cost?? And don't give me any flickering solution. Video is going digital anyway. Oh, and which card do you recommend to compress video? Any C-Cube implementation on the horizon? > >Buy an Amiga, buy a Toaster, get a CDTV and developer's kit, >buy AmigaVision... :-) I hope you realize that the toaster really SAVED the Amiga, or do you? I agree that Commodore Dynamic Total Vision is a smart move, but for their sake they better MARKET IT before Phillips AND sony goes out with their systems. And what do you think of AmigaVision? It would be interesting to compare our experiences with some of our students that used it for the last 12 months... >J. Eric Townsend - jet@uh.edu - bitnet: jet@UHOU - vox: (713) 749-2126 -- // Daniel Martin Universite de Montreal \\ // MediaLab, ca vous regarde! C.P. 6128, Succursale A, \\ \\// Mail: martin@IRO.UMontreal.CA Montreal (Quebec), CANADA, \\// \/ Tel.: (514) 343-6111 poste 3494 H3C 3J7 \/
hackbod@prism.cs.orst.edu (Dave Hackborn) (05/18/91)
In article <1991May18.001444.4743@IRO.UMontreal.CA> martin@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Daniel Martin) writes: > > NeXT Station, 100 Meg, 8 Meg ram, BW Monitor, 68040, DSP, softwares (UNIX) > etc. for 4995$ list. > > NeXT Dimension board, 32 bitplanes, 8 bitplanes alpha channel. A really > impressive card. 3995$ list. The only problem is that you can't use the NeXT Dimension board with the NeXT Stations :-) The NeXT Station doesn't have any slots; you'll need to get a NeXT Cube, which is about $8000. As far as I know, the Cube is basically the same as the Station, except that it has slots. Yes, the NeXT Station *is* a nice machine, and when I was looking for a computer to buy, I had a tough time deciding between it and the A3000. Until I found out that there was no way to upgrade it to color. I HATE b&w. If you want color, the NeXT Station Color is about $8000 and gives you 1120 x 832 pixel 12 bit (4096 color) display with 12 MB. Oh, and you'll need the 340MB drive to do anything serious. I really like the NeXT computers. I just wish I could afford one. :-)
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (05/18/91)
In article <1991May18.021039.26428@lynx.CS.ORST.EDU> hackbod@prism.cs.orst.edu (Dave Hackborn) writes:
Yes, the NeXT Station *is* a nice machine, and when I was looking for
a computer to buy, I had a tough time deciding between it and the A3000.
Until I found out that there was no way to upgrade it to color. I
HATE b&w. If you want color, the NeXT Station Color is about $8000 and
gives you 1120 x 832 pixel 12 bit (4096 color) display with 12 MB. Oh,
and you'll need the 340MB drive to do anything serious.
How much time did you get to spend with the NeXTstation? The
monochrome screens(actually 4 shades of gray, 2-bits) looks quite
sharp. It beats looking at a VGA screen all day. How much does an
Amiga 3000 go for these days? I guess we're talking noneductional
prices here, at least we seem to be.
I really like the NeXT computers. I just wish I could afford one. :-)
Well, at least you got the color. Maybe you and Ted Turner could go
into business together? Everyone knows how worthless a monochrome
screen is. If only more of the work that people did didn't require
color, then NeXT would have a nice computer in the NeXTstation.
-Mikeelg@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM (Eric Lee Green) (05/18/91)
From article <62084@masscomp.westford.ccur.com>, by mark@masscomp.westford.ccur.com (Mark Thompson): > In article <1991May16.140513.4946@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> tj@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca > (Terry Jones) writes: >>There are lots of other >>things a NeXT will do much more easily than an Amiga, like exist cleanly in >>an ethernet university environment. > > You truly are uninformed. On that note, I'm out of here. These NeXT wars > are disturbingly non-productive and it appears that all you want is a war. Uninformed indeed, considering that NeXT and Commodore are using the exact same Berkeley networking code! (That's right, much of Commodore's current Ethernet TCP/IP package is a fairly straight port, complete all the way down to the "FTP" and "rlogin" programs). In addition, you can get "X" from Boing! and REALLY "rlogin" to your remote hosts (i.e., via a graphical windowing interface, instead of glass tty). -- Eric Lee Green (318) 984-1820 P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509 elg@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM uunet!mjbtn!raider!elgamy!elg
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (05/21/91)
In article <1991May16.140513.4946@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> tj@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Terry Jones) writes: >There are lots of other things a NeXT will do much more easily than an Amiga, >like exist cleanly in an ethernet university environment. That's absolute bunk. My Amiga here has been existing cleanly in an Ethernet based engineering environment since before NeXT existed, period. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
martin@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Daniel Martin) (05/22/91)
In article <21753@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >In article <1991May16.140513.4946@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> tj@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Terry Jones) writes: >>There are lots of other things a NeXT will do much more easily than an Amiga, >>like exist cleanly in an ethernet university environment. > >That's absolute bunk. My Amiga here has been existing cleanly in an Ethernet >based engineering environment since before NeXT existed, period. >Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" Well, it's true that there was an ethernet solution (by Ameristar, now a Commodore product) before the NeXT went public. His statement is true in at least one way: the NeXT validates the user and can be "trusted" in a network. This is not yet the case under AmigaDos. I can set my uid/gid to anything, and have unrestricted access to the mounted partitions. In our network, we 'restricted' our amigas to 'ftp' and 'login' (pathetic :-(). -- // Daniel Martin Universite de Montreal \\ // MediaLab, ca vous regarde! C.P. 6128, Succursale A, \\ \\// Mail: martin@IRO.UMontreal.CA Montreal (Quebec), CANADA, \\// \/ Tel.: (514) 343-6111 poste 3494 H3C 3J7 \/
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (05/22/91)
In article <1991May21.233534.10638@IRO.UMontreal.CA> martin@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Daniel Martin) writes: > His statement is true in at least one way: the NeXT validates the user > and can be "trusted" in a network. Hah. You need to discuss security on TCP/IP based networks with the folks at Project Athena. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
neideck@kaputt.enet.dec.com (Burkhard Neidecker-Lutz) (05/27/91)
Can anybody enlighten me what the CDTV (Commodore Digital Total Vision ? What ?) is ? It seems to be related to providing a cpability for doing digitized video on the Amiga. What kind of compression scheme is used ? How does it work ? Burkhard Neidecker-Lutz, Digital CEC Karlsruhe Project NESTOR
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (05/28/91)
In article <1991May27.123818.20713@pa.dec.com> neideck@kaputt.enet.dec.com (Burkhard Neidecker-Lutz) writes: > >Can anybody enlighten me what the CDTV (Commodore Digital Total Vision ? ) --> Dynamic > It seems to be related to providing a cpability for doing digitized video >on the Amiga. Uh, yes, too. It simply is an Amiga 500 with 1 MB RAM plus an integrated CD-ROM drive that also can be used for standard CD audio. Plus you have little niceties as a MIDI port and an interface for a Personal Memory Card. So, you can do all sorts of animations or play back digitized video just like with all other Amigas. The CD-ROM is accessed via an own filesystem just like a read-only harddisk. But you have absolutely standard file and directory structure on it, nothing spectacular. > What kind of compression scheme is used ? How does it >work ? It works nice :-). There is NO provided compression in hardware or system software. The standard software compression schemes like in existing Amiga animation packages are used. -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
rick@ameristar (Rick Spanbauer) (05/28/91)
In article <1991May21.233534.10638@IRO.UMontreal.CA> martin@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Daniel Martin) writes: > His statement is true in at least one way: the NeXT validates the user >and can be "trusted" in a network. This is not yet the case under AmigaDos. >I can set my uid/gid to anything, and have unrestricted access to the mounted >partitions. In our network, we 'restricted' our amigas to 'ftp' and 'login' >(pathetic :-(). > // Daniel Martin Universite de Montreal \\ On an ordinary Unix machine, eg a Sun, it is possible to pretend, using NFS, to be any user one wants to. This requires about as much skill, especially under earlier releases of SunOS, as re-setting the uid/gid in Amiga TCP/IP. It is hard to provide real authentication on a machine that does not have a protected memory address space. I've heard that the PC implementations of NFS have this same problem, even though some use pcnfsd to authenticate a user. Security that is little more than an illusion is perhaps worse at times than no security at all. As I recall the timeline, we've had NFS running on ethernet on the Amiga since roughly 1986. Since I don't follow the NeXT, you can figure out which existed first ;-) Rick
darrell@comspec.uucp (Darrell Grainger) (05/29/91)
In article <1991May27.123818.20713@pa.dec.com> neideck@kaputt.enet.dec.com (Burkhard Neidecker-Lutz) writes: > >Can anybody enlighten me what the CDTV (Commodore Digital Total Vision ? What ?) >is ? It seems to be related to providing a cpability for doing digitized video >on the Amiga. What kind of compression scheme is used ? How does it >work ? I think you are getting CDTV mixed up with DCTV. CDTV is basically a mix between an Amiga computer and a CD-ROM player. Commodore is marketting the CDTV towards the sort of person who would buy a stereo component but is a little intimidated by a computer. You turn the unit on, pop in a CD and the thing goes. It is designed to connect to a stereo system for nice sound but can also use a TV for sound. Out of the box it is set to connect to a TV. The cost of CD (which include titles like a dictionary, games, gardening tips, history, geography) is comparable to a software package. For example, Defender of the Crown on CD is $49 Canadian. Most software in Canada starts at $49-$65 for a new title. DCTV is from Digital Creation (I think) who also make the SuperGen line of genlocks. DCTV is a small box with two connectors and two RCA jacks. The first connector plugs to the monitor port and has pass through for the monitor cable. The second connector goes to the parallel port for the digitizing software to control the DCTV (much like DigiView). One of the RCA jacks is an input for a video signal (again similar to DigiView). The other RCA jack is an output for the 24 bit graphics image (NTSC video). > > Burkhard Neidecker-Lutz, Digital CEC Karlsruhe > Project NESTOR ---------------------------------------------------------------------- | Darrell Grainger (darrell@comspec) |Comspec Communications Inc. | | Toronto, Ontario, Canada |Disclaimer: My opinions do not | | (416)617-1475 (416)633-5605 |reflect those of my employer. | |------------------------------------+-------------------------------| | Motorcycle: Honda PC800 | Computer:Amiga 2000 | ----------------------------------------------------------------------
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (06/04/91)
In article <1991May22.015324.11494@IRO.UMontreal.CA> martin@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Daniel Martin) writes: >> There are more than a few Ethernet cards for the A2000/3000 series. Theyre not >> that hard to find... > More than a few? Beside the card from Commodore (actually bought from >Ameristar) which ones are you talking about? He's probably thinking of either the ASDG card or the GVP/Hyrda card. Unlike the Commodore card, these are both DMA rather than CPU driven, so they should in theory perform a tad better than the Amiga card. Not that Ethernet is any kind of load compared to hard disk, but it's non-trivial. > Normally, when the amiga has a working prototype of something, Apple >"discover" it until IBM and Microsoft invent it! :-) It does seem to work that way. IBM and Microsoft seems to somehow have invented 3.5" floppies, windows, multitasking, hard disks, mice, Multimedia, etc. at various points after they were in common use elsewhere. > I wouldn't use NEVER. I think an IBM 34010 based graphic card can >easily do whatever copper-blitter operation I can think of right now on a >1024x1024 256 colors screen. The 34010 is a TI graphics processor, nothing to do with IBM. There are some 34010 boards for the Amiga, more for the PClones. IBM itself doesn't make a graphics board that sophisticated, though their XGA does kind of the same thing a fast 32 bit Amiga with VGA emulation might if wired up to the MCA bus. > // Daniel Martin Universite de Montreal \\ -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "This is my mistake. Let me make it good." -R.E.M.