Andy Patrizio <PYC136@uriacc.uri.edu> (06/05/91)
David Hopper said: >The fact is, >the average American person is a complete moron, and you have to make >computers simple or they will not sell. Commodore borrowed quite a >lot from the MAC with Workbench 2.0, and people are continually calling >on Commodore to borrow more from Apple and make the Workbench even more >MAC-like. Judging from the sales of the MAC compared to the sales of >the Amiga, Commodore is right to be borrowing as much as possible >from the MAC. No, Marc. Fact is, the average American computer buyer is an intelligent decision-maker who looks at the options *accessible* to them and makes a value judgement based upon the strengths and weaknesses of various platforms. It's unfortunate the Amiga isn't more available to more people; but that's just how it is, right now. Doesn't mean it's not reversible, and if you'd take a look a sales, you'd see that the Amiga is selling at a faster clip than the Mac. Period. Which is good for everyone not affiliated with that giant, belching corporocracy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- You obviously haven't worked for a computer dealership. I have. You want to know some of the brianless comments I got? "I'm looking to buy a computer, but I'm not excatly sure what I want to do with it." "We're thinkin' about gettin' a computer, but we're not sure what. What's out there?" "I'm thinkin' about gettin' a computer. Can you do writing with them?" No word of a lie, that's what I had to put up with. For a country that spends so much time and energy on consumerism, we sure are lousy at it. People wanting to blow $3000 on something they knew NOTHING about. Many of them clearly were not ready to buy, or were thinking recklessly. To sell them a computer would have been robbery. So there goes 20 minutes trying to get them to decide what they wanted to do with their investment. I could have taken a lot of people for a lot of money and they'd never know it. So no, American's are not smart computer buyers. Many of them are clueless. .signed, / Andy Patrizio | Bitnet: pyc136@uriacc.bitnet \ / University of Rhode Island | Internet: pyc136@uriacc.uri.edu \ / | ARPA: pyc136%uriacc@brownvm.brown.edu \ \ // Amiga... what else? | Usenet: uunet!rayssd!idsvax!andypo / \ \\// | UUCP: andypo@idsvax.uucp / \ \/ "What a thrilling life..." -- Precious Metal /
bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) (06/05/91)
In article <55445@nigel.ee.udel.edu> PYC136@uriacc.uri.edu (Andy Patrizio) writes: > >You obviously haven't worked for a computer dealership. I have. You want >to know some of the brianless comments I got? > >[brainless comments deleted] > >So no, American's are not smart computer buyers. Many of them are clueless. > I just take exception to the knee-jerk reaction that consumers are cows. Many are, indeed, but the product that treats them as human beings (e.g. the Amiga) is deserving of respect. Yet I'll grant you that there are a lot of idiots out there. Given that, and I mean this honestly, do they *deserve* to own an Amiga? It's a sophisticated machine, with a sophisticated and complex OS. To fully utilize the Amiga, you should know how write scripts. Scripting can be just as complex as programming (esp. w/ regard to ARexx). It's a creative workstation, but only for those who can use the technology. Otherwise, get a damn Macintoy that'll lead you by the hair through the tedious and mind-consuming chore of clicking a button. #define Marc Barrett tangent, fueled by years of his incessant whining Marc Barrett's whole attitude is contrary to the whole philosophy behind the Amiga (and the NeXT, to some extent): to borrow a phrase, it's Bohemian Technology. The Amiga's a Harley. Marc rides a trike, and would get the crap beat out of him in any neighborhood pub, hopefully someday by my iron-studded glove. ;-) #end meaningless tangent > / Andy Patrizio | Bitnet: pyc136@uriacc.bitnet \ Hope somebody enjoyed this, Dave Hopper |MUYOM!/// Anthro Creep | NeXT Campus Consultant at Stanford | __ /// . . | Smackintosh/UNIX Consultant - AIR bard@jessica. | \\\/// Ia! Ia! | Independent Amiga Developer Stanford.EDU | \XX/ Shub-Niggurath! | & (Mosh) Pit Fiend from Acheron
PYC136@uriacc.uri.edu (Andy Patrizio) (06/05/91)
David Hopper says: I just take exception to the knee-jerk reaction that consumers are cows. Many are, indeed, but the product that treats them as human beings (e.g. the Amiga) is deserving of respect. Yet I'll grant you that there are a lot of idiots out there. Given that, and I mean this honestly, do they *deserve* to own an Amiga? It's ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Have you ever worked for a dealership, David? When you sit and hear the incredably DUMB things people do, your attitude will change. I didn't formulate my attitude toward computer buyers out of boredom. It developed from putting up with one customer after another who had no idea what they getting into. Educating yourself about the machine's capabilities and what it can do for you is the buyer's job, not the salesman's. You know the old saying that starts off "Walk a mile in my shoes..."? Try it. You'll be horrified. Being on the net, we deal with people on a high level of computer comprehension. It's easy to forget there are a lot of people out there who should never touch one of these things. Especially an Amiga. This is a difficult machine to learn, and for those who have never used a computer before it would be a nightmare. Much as I like this machine, I'd dread selling it. Supporting customers who aren't used to an OS like AmigaDOS would give me gray hairs. (you might add Mac users to the noveice list, since I don't consider the Mac a computer. It's a monument to the old saying that if you build something even an idiot can use, only an idiot will use it.) .signed, / Andy Patrizio | Bitnet: pyc136@uriacc.bitnet \ / University of Rhode Island | Internet: pyc136@uriacc.uri.edu \ / | ARPA: pyc136%uriacc@brownvm.brown.edu \ \ // Amiga... what else? | Usenet: uunet!rayssd!idsvax!andypo / \ \\// | UUCP: andypo@idsvax.uucp / \ \/ "What a thrilling life..." -- Precious Metal /
kherron@ms.uky.edu (Kenneth Herron) (06/05/91)
PYC136@uriacc.uri.edu (Andy Patrizio) writes: >David Hopper says: >I just take exception to the knee-jerk reaction that consumers are cows. >Many are, indeed, but the product that treats them as human beings (e.g. >the Amiga) is deserving of respect. >When you sit and hear the >incredably DUMB things people do, your attitude will change. I didn't >formulate my attitude toward computer buyers out of boredom. It developed >from putting up with one customer after another who had no idea what they >getting into. I have to agree. If you ever hold a job which requires dealing with a large cross-section of the public (most retail sales positions) you quickly develop a deep disrespect for the quality of education in this country :-) Sure it's knee-jerk. You only meet these people for a few minutes each. I don't *really* believe that most people are stupid, but it's hard not to think this occasionally when most of the people you meet seem unable to think their way out of a paper bag. (To fellow ms.uky.edu'ians: I'm thinking of my former life, not this one :-) -- Kenneth Herron kherron@ms.uky.edu University of Kentucky +1 606 257 2975 Department of Mathematics "So this won't be a total loss, can you make it so guys get to throw their mothers-in-law in?" "Sure, why not?"
torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) (06/06/91)
bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) writes: >Yet I'll grant you that there are a lot of idiots out there. Given >that, and I mean this honestly, do they *deserve* to own an Amiga? It's >a sophisticated machine, with a sophisticated and complex OS. Boy. I thought we'd got rid of the "high priest" attitude in the 70's. Why do you think we're not still programming in machine code? Because people saw past attitude like yours (that computers should be kept difficult and complex, so that the "plebs" couldn't use them), and instead created easier to use software to make computers accessible to a wider audience. It's still possible to have a sophisticated and complex OS. The trick is making those features usable by as many people as possible. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu "If it weren't for your gumboots, where would you be? You'd be in the hospital, or in-firm-ary..." F. Dagg
bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) (06/06/91)
In article <1991Jun6.043819.23323@neon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) writes: >bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) writes: > >>Yet I'll grant you that there are a lot of idiots out there. Given >>that, and I mean this honestly, do they *deserve* to own an Amiga? It's >>a sophisticated machine, with a sophisticated and complex OS. > > Boy. I thought we'd got rid of the "high priest" attitude in the >70's. Why do you think we're not still programming in machine code? >Because people saw past attitude like yours (that computers should be >kept difficult and complex, so that the "plebs" couldn't use them), >and instead created easier to use software to make computers >accessible to a wider audience. Hey, there's a limit, Evan. Should any whacked-out Joe Street be sold a UNIX box with a terrific GUI and applications if he or she is unfamiliar and unwilling to learn the complexities of UNIX? Not a chance, unless they're looking to get burned. The Mac OS is good in that the lowest-level administration tasks still boil down to clicking buttons and visually moving files around. Unfortunately, this is only because of an extremely inflexible OS. With UNIX and AmigaDOS, administration boils down to scripting and bit-manipulations, something inherently more complicated than pointing and clicking, yet this is due to an extremely flexible, open-ended OS design that allows for a higher degree of intervention and customization. > It's still possible to have a sophisticated and complex OS. The trick >is making those features usable by as many people as possible. I agree completely. But there are different classes of computers, no? Just as there are different levels of aptitude out there in consumerland. Idiots shouldn't use Amigas not because of some invented 'high-priest' attitude, but for their own safety. If someone gets burned by an OS they didn't bargain for, that looks bad for the whole show, making it look as if it were the machine's fault. >Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu Dave Hopper |MUYOM!/// Anthro Creep | NeXT Campus Consultant at Stanford | __ /// . . | Smackintosh/UNIX Consultant - AIR bard@jessica. | \\\/// Ia! Ia! | Independent Amiga Developer Stanford.EDU | \XX/ Shub-Niggurath! | & (Mosh) Pit Fiend from Acheron
griffin@frith.egr.msu.edu (Danny Griffin) (06/06/91)
torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) writes: > Boy. I thought we'd got rid of the "high priest" attitude in the >70's. Why do you think we're not still programming in machine code? >Because people saw past attitude like yours (that computers should be >kept difficult and complex, so that the "plebs" couldn't use them), >and instead created easier to use software to make computers >accessible to a wider audience. A noble attitude, and one that I agree with. However, let's take a look at reality. Our grandparents learned Latin in high school. Now, today students complain that they have to learn English. Grammar (spelling and puncuation) were difficult, so a movement got underway to ease spelling and punctuation rules. Now half (3/4, 7/8...make up your own statistics) of all Americans can't spell, conjugate a verb, or know what a semi-colon is. Dan -- Dan Griffin griffin@frith.egr.msu.edu
torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) (06/06/91)
bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) writes: >> It's still possible to have a sophisticated and complex OS. The trick >>is making those features usable by as many people as possible. >I agree completely. But there are different classes of computers, no? >Just as there are different levels of aptitude out there in consumerland. Yes, and these computers are aimed at different markets. High-end markets such as scientific/industrial users are usually prepared to put up with "more difficult" administration/control, because the pay-back of using the extra features is worth it. I argue that for 99% of the home market, and even a very large percentage of the small business market, the market doesn't CARE about the sophisticated/complex OS. How many Amiga 500 owners even know of the existence of AREXX, for example? This market would probably recognise the benefit of a more feature-filled OS, but unless those features are as easy to use as the lesser OSes, they'll go for the lesser OS every time (assuming of course that applications are equivalent on both. Applications are far more important for this market than the OS) . >Dave Hopper |MUYOM!/// Anthro Creep | NeXT Campus Consultant at Stanford > | __ /// . . | Smackintosh/UNIX Consultant - AIR ^^^ Not for long, huh? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu Fame, fame, fame... What's it good for? Ab-so-lute-ly nothing
bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) (06/07/91)
In article <1991Jun6.165722.17304@neon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) writes: >bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) writes: > >>> It's still possible to have a sophisticated and complex OS. The trick >>>is making those features usable by as many people as possible. > >>I agree completely. But there are different classes of computers, no? >>Just as there are different levels of aptitude out there in consumerland. > > Yes, and these computers are aimed at different markets. High-end >markets such as scientific/industrial users are usually prepared to >put up with "more difficult" administration/control, because the >pay-back of using the extra features is worth it. But when making the distinction between the Amiga and the Mac, it's clear that the markets are much the same. Single home or academic users looking for a startup system. Yet the OS's are dissimilar in complexity, enough to make a difference. How do you explain the fact that there are 3 million of those little 500s out there, and rising; they're being snapped up at a faster rate than Macs, yet the Mac is so much easier to deal with and has a much more aggressive ad campaign? > I argue that for 99% of the home market, and even a very large >percentage of the small business market, the market doesn't CARE about >the sophisticated/complex OS. How many Amiga 500 owners even know of >the existence of AREXX, for example? My point. They SHOULD care, or they'll get into trouble when they realize that the OS takes a steeper learning curve than they're used to. I would argue that a good number of those 2.5 million A500 users know how to deal with a startup-sequence or a CLI. Simply because it's there, and it's an integral part of the OS; and of the six 500 users I know at school and at home, it's something they learn within the first couple weeks of owning a 500. These are the same people that would have bought a Mac Classic, if it weren't so damned expensive and short on features. Dubious analogy: don't drive cross-country if you don't know how to change your oil. Stay home with your bicycle. > This market would probably recognise the benefit of a more >feature-filled OS, but unless those features are as easy to use >as the lesser OSes, they'll go for the lesser OS every time (assuming >of course that applications are equivalent on both. Applications are >far more important for this market than the OS) . Well, sure. Assuming equivalent applications, Workbench and the Desktop are selfsame GUIs, both WIMPs. But where the Amiga's strengths lie behind the GUI, the Mac has nothing but the GUI (out of the box, that is). Novice Amiga users don't see the underlying goodies until they become familiar with the system, generally only after they've bought it. >>Dave Hopper |MUYOM!/// Anthro Creep | NeXT Campus Consultant at Stanford >> | __ /// . . | Smackintosh/UNIX Consultant - AIR > ^^^ > Not for long, huh? Nope. 'Swhy I hold down four or five jobs at a time. One of 'em's bound to go under ;-) >Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu Take care, Dave Hopper |MUYOM!/// Anthro Creep | NeXT Campus Consultant at Stanford | __ /// . . | Smackintosh/UNIX Consultant - AIR bard@jessica. | \\\/// Ia! Ia! | Independent Amiga Developer Stanford.EDU | \XX/ Shub-Niggurath! | & (Mosh) Pit Fiend from Acheron
torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) (06/07/91)
bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) writes: >complexity, enough to make a difference. How do you explain the fact >that there are 3 million of those little 500s out there, and rising; >they're being snapped up at a faster rate than Macs, yet the Mac is so >much easier to deal with and has a much more aggressive ad campaign? 3 million of those 500s in the U.S.?? Hmmm, maybe the market is not quite the same in those places where the 500 is selling big. Just as an example, in my home country (New Zealand), you used to see an Amiga ad on the TV at least once or twice per week (always selling it as a hot games machine), whereas Apple had basically given up on television advertising. Furthermore, the ubiquitous Nintendo machine isn't sold in NZ. The Amiga 500 is essentially the Nintendo replacement for the NZ market. Walking into a Commodore dealer, it's almost impossible to find any "productivity" applications for the Amiga. That's not where the market is in NZ. Not surprisingly, Commodore outsells Apple in NZ... you have this huge number of Amiga 500s being bought as games machines, through heavy advertising and cost of approx $1000 a machine vs $3000 for a Classic. [Maybe the boys from actrix.gen.nz would like to comment on this]. >I would argue that a good number of those 2.5 million A500 users know >how to deal with a startup-sequence or a CLI. What's a good number? 42? Anyone out there in dealer land like to comment on their perception of the A500 users? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu "If it weren't for your gumboots, where would you be? You'd be in the hospital, or in-firm-ary..." F. Dagg
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) (06/07/91)
PYC136@uriacc.uri.edu (Andy Patrizio) writes: > (you might add Mac users to the novice list, since > I don't consider the Mac a computer. It's a > monument to the old saying that if you build > something even an idiot can use, only an idiot > will use it.) And isn't it amazing how the business community went lemminglike right to the Mac, despite offical pressure against it from higher management? Do you really wonder why America is unable to compete in the world economy any more? Look who's leading the fight; Mac users. Kent, the man from xanth. <xanthian@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xanthian@well.sf.ca.us> -- I probably ought to put a smiley in there to avoid being murdered in my sleep, but I don't feel all that humorous about living through yet another recession in a mismanaged economy.
bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) (06/07/91)
In article <1991Jun6.220223.8232@neon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) writes: >bard@jessica.stanford.edu (David Hopper) writes: > >>complexity, enough to make a difference. How do you explain the fact >>that there are 3 million of those little 500s out there, and rising; >>they're being snapped up at a faster rate than Macs, yet the Mac is so >>much easier to deal with and has a much more aggressive ad campaign? > > <...> >Not surprisingly, Commodore outsells Apple in NZ... you have this huge >number of Amiga 500s being bought as games machines, through heavy >advertising and cost of approx $1000 a machine vs $3000 for a Classic. >[Maybe the boys from actrix.gen.nz would like to comment on this]. Well, you know about 500 owners. What's the average Classic buyer like? >>I would argue that a good number of those 2.5 million A500 users know >>how to deal with a startup-sequence or a CLI. > > What's a good number? 42? Anyone out there in dealer land like to >comment on their perception of the A500 users? Go back and get my point. Look at the users of Classics vs. users of 500s, not the dealer-fresh buyers of each. See where they stand. I know of six other 500 owners besides myself, all more literate than the Classic owners I know that don't need to deal with a script or CLI. >Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu Oh, to hell with it. I've got finals, and NeXTs to sell. ;-) Dave Hopper |MUYOM!/// Anthro Creep | NeXT Campus Consultant at Stanford | __ /// . . | Smackintosh/UNIX Consultant - AIR bard@jessica. | \\\/// Ia! Ia! | Independent Amiga Developer Stanford.EDU | \XX/ Shub-Niggurath! | & (Mosh) Pit Fiend from Acheron
torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) (06/07/91)
xanthian@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan) writes: > PYC136@uriacc.uri.edu (Andy Patrizio) writes: >> (you might add Mac users to the novice list, since >> I don't consider the Mac a computer. It's a >> monument to the old saying that if you build >> something even an idiot can use, only an idiot >> will use it.) >And isn't it amazing how the business community went >lemminglike right to the Mac, despite offical pressure >against it from higher management? >Do you really wonder why America is unable to compete >in the world economy any more? >Look who's leading the fight; Mac users. The Mac is hardly more than 10% of the PC population in Fortune 500 companies. The other 90% is IBM or compatibles. I'd say any failing of US companies is more an indictment of IBM PCs than Macs. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu "Lay me place and bake me pie, I'm starving for me gravy... Leave my shoes and door unlocked, I might just slip away - hey - just for the day."
dant@ryptyde.UUCP (Daniel Tracy) (06/08/91)
Responding to the following: "Dubious analogy: don't drive cross-country if you don't know how to change your oil. Stay home with your bicycle." That analogy would seem to suggest that the Macintosh isn't as powerful as an Amiga (that's a laugh). A better analogy would be being able to use a car on a regular basis to get to where you're going without having to understand exactly how it works and how to fix it. If you want a car that breaks down often so you will eventually learn about its innards, go for it. If you want something that will get you from Point A to Point B reliably, go for that.