mmoore@ux.acs.umn.edu (Malcolm Diallo Moore) (06/24/91)
In article <7471@vela.acs.oakland.edu$ lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes:
$
$Every day, in every way, I see myself agreeing more and more with Marc
$Barret on more and more things. Not so much the technical aspects of
$the machines as much as the simple fact that Commodore keeps screwing
$up. This bothers me because I really can't stand Marc that much and
$yet I keep nodding my head when I read his posts. I don't know if he
$has a clue as to what needs to be done to fix things, but he's right
$on the money when he says CBM is screwing up.
$
And you people can sit there and laff and dis him if you want to; yeah he
may be a rathead and an asshole and all that, but if you really look at
what he's saying, you know that he's exactly right.
$My boyfriend runs a Paragon BBS off and on when he's got the extra $$$
$to do so. He writes a door program called Castle Dungeon for it that
$is popular on a lot of Paragon/StarNet, TransAmiga, and XenoLink BBS
$systems. This puts him in contact with a lot of other BBS sysops. One
$of the ones he's become good friends with runs ClickMeTwice BBS, a 6
$line system dedicated to serving the Amiga, which also happens to be a
$computer dealer for the Amiga. Al, the owner of the store and BBS
$system, is going bankrupt selling Amigas. He has recently been posting
$some of the reasons why in the Amiga FidoNet Echomail areas. Some of
$you may have already seen them. He is not alone. We have heard from
$other dealers around the country who have had multiple problems with
$Commodore resulting in their not being able to maintain a profit and
$thus closing their doors.
$
$To me, this says that something just isn't right down at the blue and
$red. Al cited the fact that at the dealer's conference that was held
$when Copperman first arrived more advertising, a virtual blitz they
$were told, was about to be launched. TV, Print, Radio. The works.
$Everyone was excited and went home to wait and watch. Alas, there were
$many market areas virtually untouched by this "Blitz". Al's area, and
$even here in the Metro Detroit area, saw little, if any, of the ads
$and then they were usually on around 1 or 2 A.M. when most of the
$world was asleep.
Now TELL me, how the hell you gonna buy a computer that you don't even know
about? Let me tell you like THIS: I was SET on buying an Atari ST until I
happened to read one of those "Make up your own Mind" pamphlets. And when
I realized that there was better support and better graphics than the ST and
was cheaper than the Mac? (Yes, I had considered Mac, too, but even the
Classic was too overpriced for my budget) I had to jump on that!! Well,
I'm glad I got an Amiga, but I see more people are agreeing with Marc that if
we don't say or do something right now, then we'll be in as bad a shape as
Atari is in!
By the way, for the week, Commodore stock has dropped to 12 down 2 1/4 from last
week.
$
$Al called Commodore and voiced his complaints and was only told "Come
$up with $10,000 and we'll co-op one with you for your area." What? If
$Al had $10,000 he wouldn't NEED the advertising that was PROMISED,
$he'd be making a profit on a machine that would have to be selling. He
$isn't though and as such he will be closing down. He's fully expecting
$Commodore to pull his dealership status for having the gall to speak
$out about his problems, and with the way Commodore has been the last
$few years, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they did.
$
What the hell is WRONG with Commodore?? To all the Commodore people who
read this net, I don't give a god damn WHAT department you work in (because
you represent Commodore in any aspect) How do you all expect to make any
money when you turn your back on people who are trying to help you SELL
your computer?!
$
$My SO has been a Loyal Commodore user since the days of the Pet
$computers and has owned several different Commodore machines. Pet,
$Vic20, C-64 (several of these), C-128, and Amiga 1000 and 2000. I
$converted from Apple with the arrivial of the Amiga. All in all we
$have little complaints with the machine itself, even if it is getting
$dated compared to the rest. Our complaints are with the relative
$in-activity at Commodore with selling machines. Sure they're doing
$great overseas, but I don't live in Europe so that does me no good.
$
Let me tell you like this: If I'd have saved just $600 more then I would
have gotten a Mac LC on ed discount. But I needed a computer right THEN, not
three and four months down the road. I needed something I could do my
school work on THEN, not right before school ended so it could sit up in
my house collecting dust.
$There were even rumors for awhile that Commodore was thinking about
$shutting down US sales seeing as they couldn't do well here. Couldn't
$do well? They haven't done anything to promote good sales here. Makes
$you wish you could sit down with the CBM big-wigs and say "Hi! I'm
$Jane/Joe User." (SLAP! SLAP! SLAP! SLAP!) "WAKE UP YOU IDIOTS!"
$
Exactly. John Q Customer walks into a computer store and sees big Apple
banners and big IBM Banners. And in the corner there's a little Amiga sign.
Now you tell me which f*ckin computer he's gonna get first if he doesn't
know everything about computers and isn't deep into the knowledge of differen-
ces in systems.
$I once had big hopes for Commodore and the Amiga, but both seemed
$doomed to stay a second class company with a second class machine.
$When the rumors of the Hewlett Packard buy-out were floating around I
$PRAYED it would happen! Whatever HP did with the Amiga, it would STILL
$have been more than what CBM was doing. Same thing with the recent
$Sony rumors. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE will someone with some
$advertising BRAINS and interest in advanced R&D PLEASE BUY OUT
$COMMODORE and get this thing MOVING in SOME sort of direction!?!?
$
Somebody needs to do something. Because we're all getting jacked, and every
body knows it, but we're not man enough to admit it.
WAKE UP COMMODORE!! Get your product out! Make it so people can SEE the damn
thing! Make a big Commodore banner! Naw, F*ck that, make a big ELECTRONIC
SIGN, and have that motherf*cker flashing in FRONT of the store, so it's the
first thing they see!!!
$Enough of my ramblings. I've given up hope on CBM and the Amiga. I
$will continue to use my machine happily until Commodore inevitably
$dies off and then I will probably buy a Macintosh. Sure it's more
$expensive, but there won't be a CBM around to offer anything better so
$why sweat it. It's been fun Commodore, wish you would have done a
$better job.
$
Although I haven't given up on the Amiga.......
I'm afraid I'm in the same boat as Laurana here. I will continue to buy soft0
ware and hardware for my Amiga as long as it's there. But when it's time to
move on, it's time to move on. Hopefully that'll be sooner rather than later,
but if we sit on our ASSES like Commodore is doing, it WILL be sooner.]
AND To those Sucker Ducks who wanna lash out and say "Why don't you just
Buy a Mac or an IBM if you're so scared?"...:
Motherf*ck that! That's all you have to say! Which means you ain't trying
to do shit with the computer you got, and you can't face facts that there are
some serious questions in The Amiga's Future, if we even have one! DO we have
a future? Do we?! We won't if we rely on backhoes like you with your wickety-
wick-wack lash-outs because YOU know YOU are scared too! If I had REALLY
wanted to buy a Mac, I WOULD have waited. But I wanted an Amiga, dammit,
because first of all it's a powerful computer at a low price, and second,
it has the POTENTIAL (notice how I used 'POTENTIAL') to go very far in the
computer world. But weak sucker ducks just resting on their laurels ain't
gonna cut it. And you KNOW it and you might as well DEAL with it.
Yall might think this is funny and I'm just blowing a lot of air out of my
butt but I'm dead serious because I've been watching, and I damn sure don't
like what I see, and although I'm actively trying to change that situation,
I don't see anybody else doing anything but talking a lot of technical
bullshit (not that it's all bullshit, but will it get C= into the office
and into the howwwwse?!)
I'm telling All of you, you had better Get Wit the Program, before the program
gets Jacked from under you, and you're grabbing at nothing.
P.S. To those that may be offended by this- You know that key on your keyboard
between 'B' and 'M'? Hit that motherf*cker.
**********************Malcolm "The Capital MD" Moore**************************
* * The * *
* CHICAGO BULLS * Microcomputer & Workstation * "Whaddaya want, *
* THE 1991 * Networks Center * a biscuit?" *
* NBA * would have to PAY me * *
* CHAMPZ! * to express any kind of an * - LL Cool J *
* * opinion in their behalf. * *
*******[AMIGA]************[mmoore@ux.acs.umn.edu]*****************************rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (06/24/91)
In article <4190@ux.acs.umn.edu> mmoore@ux.acs.umn.edu (Malcolm Diallo Moore) writes: >And you people can sit there and laff and dis him if you want to; yeah he >may be a rathead and an asshole and all that, but if you really look at >what he's saying, you know that he's exactly right. It's not what Marc says, it's how he says it. Marc doesn't say "I am displeased with Commodore service, I wish C= marketing would advertise better." Instead Marc say, "Commodore will _NEVER_ market the Amiga correctly." Notice the difference? One of them is a sincere question about Commodore's competence in marketing, the other is a just a slanderous statement. Yes, we all deserve to take out frustrations some times (slandering) but Marc has had his fill, and he continues to do it. And Marc is not right all the time either, somethings he just doesn't know what he's talking about (e.g. "The Clipboard is intended for ASCII only transfer.") -- / INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ | INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| \ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * /
taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) (06/24/91)
In article <1991Jun23.194902.21351@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >And Marc is not right all the time either, somethings he just doesn't >know what he's talking about (e.g. "The Clipboard is intended for >ASCII only transfer.") You misread my whole point with that, too. My point was that the Amiga's clipboard does not work nearly as well as the one on the Macintosh. You could not prove my point wrong, so you jumped on a minor detail. Typical. > >-- >/ INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ >| INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| >\ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * / > ------------------------------------------------------------- / Marc Barrett -MB- | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / / ISU COM S Student | Internet: XGR39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU / ------------------------------------------------------------ \ The great thing about standards is that / \ there are so many of them to choose from. / -------------------------------------------------------
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (06/24/91)
In article <1991Jun23.202728.18615@news.iastate.edu> taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: >In article <1991Jun23.194902.21351@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >>And Marc is not right all the time either, somethings he just doesn't >>know what he's talking about (e.g. "The Clipboard is intended for >>ASCII only transfer.") > > You misread my whole point with that, too. My point was that the Amiga's >clipboard does not work nearly as well as the one on the Macintosh. You >could not prove my point wrong, so you jumped on a minor detail. Typical. What do you mean I couldn't prove your point wrong? All I had to do was look up the docs on the clipboard device and look at the header files. Besides that, iffparse.library contains a OpenClipboard function that allows you to read and write IFF files to the clipboard. So the statement "The clipboard was originally designed for ASCII" is bunk. This so-called minor detail proves you do not know as much about the Amiga as you think you do. You speak with authority, yet you don't know the facts. Besides me pointing out the clipboard's ability to save any data, C= employee's responded telling you that the clipboard can and always did support any arbitrary data. If you going to make statements about the Amiga's OS, atleast learn how it works. Besides making statements about the Amiga OS, you also make blanket statements about the stock market and marketing in general. Tell me Marc, how long have you been investing in stock? How many shares of stock do you own. Reading one of the many wall-street books does not make you an expert on stock, it makes you an expert on parroting knowledge. >> >>-- >>/ INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ >>| INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| >>\ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * / >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > / Marc Barrett -MB- | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / >/ ISU COM S Student | Internet: XGR39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU / >------------------------------------------------------------ >\ The great thing about standards is that / > \ there are so many of them to choose from. / > ------------------------------------------------------- -- / INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ | INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| \ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * /
es1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (06/24/91)
In article <1991Jun23.202728.18615@news.iastate.edu> taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: >In article <1991Jun23.194902.21351@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >>And Marc is not right all the time either, somethings he just doesn't >>know what he's talking about (e.g. "The Clipboard is intended for >>ASCII only transfer.") > > You misread my whole point with that, too. My point was that the Amiga's >clipboard does not work nearly as well as the one on the Macintosh. You >could not prove my point wrong, so you jumped on a minor detail. Typical. > Marc, you can't weasel out of this one. There are problems with the clipboard, the primary one being that no one ever supported it. BUT, you made a point that was totally wrong. You stated AS FACT that the Clipboard was designed for ASCII transfers only. You were 100% wrong. The Clipboard is for IFF images quite specifically, and has been since the beginning. You still wonder why people get angry with you all the time? You can state valid points and blatant inaccuracies all in the same post. -- Ethan "...Know-Nothing-Bozo the Non-Wonder Dog, an animal so stupid that it had been sacked from one of Will's own commercials for being incapable of knowing which dog food it was supposed to prefer, despite the fact that the meat in all the other bowls had engine oil poured all over it."
don@chopin.udel.edu (Donald R Lloyd) (06/24/91)
In article <1991Jun23.202728.18615@news.iastate.edu> taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: >In article <1991Jun23.194902.21351@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >>And Marc is not right all the time either, somethings he just doesn't >>know what he's talking about (e.g. "The Clipboard is intended for >>ASCII only transfer.") > > You misread my whole point with that, too. My point was that the Amiga's >clipboard does not work nearly as well as the one on the Macintosh. You >could not prove my point wrong, so you jumped on a minor detail. Typical. You misread Ray's whole point. His point was that your ideas are often valid, but the way you present them is annoying and often downright false. You couldn't prove Ray's point wrong, so you jumped on a minor detail. Typical. (PS- I agree with your point about the clipboard; I'd love to see some more support for it). -- Gibberish May the Publications Editor, AmigaNetwork is spoken fork() be Amiga Student On-Campus Consultant, U of D here. with you. DISCLAIMER: It's all YOUR fault.
mmoore@ux.acs.umn.edu (Malcolm Diallo Moore) (06/24/91)
Time out! Hooooo wee! When I logged on to my Unix account today my mailbox was so hot I nearly got 2nd degree burns! Yes it hasn't even been a day yet since I posted the "Get Wit The Program" message expressing how I truly felt about Commodore, and already I've gotten much flame mail. Well, that's what I expected, and it proves my point. You all* can't do anything but flame me because you know I'm right. Yeah I admit it was tacky, but then it got people to notice it, didn't it? That's just what I wanted. (* You all of course does not mean everybody.) I'm sorry, but Commodore simply is not doing enough for me. People say they don't have enough money. Well then what are they doing in the business? If you can't advertise and get your product out in the open AND NOT IN THE CORNER so John Q Enduser can see it and say "Well, there's three different computers I can choose from" then you shouldn't try to even bullshit yourself. I'm sure that C= has some money set aside for advertising. Use that money to the ful- lest, get some good ideas flowing, get something that's catchy, something that will sell the computer, so you can make mo money, mo money, mo money!(tm) And the mo money you make, the mo money you have to advertise, John Q Enduser sees the computer mo and thinks mo about buying it, then uh oh! We've back in the running! They can devote more money into advertising, more money into fixing the chipset, etc. etc. (this is just an example, so don't treat it as anything more.) But I never see Commodore advertising! What, do they think that they can advertise once a year and that's supposed to carry them through? I'm always barraged with IBM PS/2 ads, and IBM sales representatives are always present at our campus, in our computing facilities (part of which I happen to run) --of course they have tons more cash to play with than C=, but still in my eyes that makes no difference. Even the Atari ST series is getting more radio play than C= machines. And I always see NeXT posters floating around. And I will tell you this: Amiga is the only computer not represented in our "Showroom Lab", I'll call it. This lab is where a few computers from each company (except C=) are shown, and is also where you find out about ed discount prices, but that is another thing entirely. About Marc Barrett: Behind all the "false figures" and the "annoying way he posts his opinions/truths/whatever", although I don't agree with him or the way he does it, he is hitting home in some very valid ways. Because you are all sweatin him like buzzards on road kill. At first I thought he was nothing but a fountain of bullshit, but the more and more I read and analyze his stuff, the more apparent it becomes that this man is pointing out some serious faults in C=. Anyway, you can take it how you want to. This is _NOT_ an apology for the first post I made, and like I said, if ya don't like it, what comes after J? Or after M? And no matter what you think of me, I'm doing my best to push Amiga into the spotlight, so other people can actually see the damn thing. What are _YOU_ doing to make Amiga better? Ask yourself that. Now, let me go and get the sysadmin to douse my mailbox before it fries my computer....:-) **********************Malcolm "The Capital MD" Moore************************** * * The * * * CHICAGO BULLS * Microcomputer & Workstation * "Whaddaya want, * * THE 1991 * Networks Center * a biscuit?" * * NBA * would have to PAY me * * * CHAMPZ! * to express any kind of an * - LL Cool J * * * opinion in their behalf. * * *******[AMIGA]*************mmoore@ux.acs.umn.edu]*****************************
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (06/24/91)
In article <4193@ux.acs.umn.edu> mmoore@ux.acs.umn.edu (Malcolm Diallo Moore) writes: >Time out! > This is ADVOCACY! No calling Time-Outs here! 8-) >I'm sorry, but Commodore simply is not doing enough for me. People say they >don't have enough money. Well then what are they doing in the business? If They are trying to survive. If they aren't doing enough for you, then don't buy an Amiga. But they can't make money appear out of thin air. I'm sure they've got 100 things they could list that they would do with money if they had it. But they don't. >you can't advertise and get your product out in the open AND NOT IN THE CORNER >so John Q Enduser can see it and say "Well, there's three different computers >I can choose from" then you shouldn't try to even bullshit yourself. I'm sure >that C= has some money set aside for advertising. Use that money to the ful- >lest, get some good ideas flowing, get something that's catchy, something that >will sell the computer, so you can make mo money, mo money, mo money!(tm) And >the mo money you make, the mo money you have to advertise, John Q Enduser sees It is a nice theory. First, Commodore doesn't make advertisements. They hire advertising agencies to make them. You can't always control what comes back. And no advertisement will make everyone happy, ESPECIALLY not in this group! 8) I argued this in CI$, and I'll try to make the point here. Commodore has a TERRIBLE reputation in the U.S. Most people think that Commodore is on the edge of bankruptcy and that the Amiga (assuming they even know what an Amiga is) is a failure and has no potential except for games. This is slowly starting to change, in large part cause of the Toaster. But admittedly the Toaster's publicity alone won't be enough. My point is that, for Commodore to turn around the U.S. market, they would have to put SO MUCH MONEY into the advertising that they wouldn't be able to afford it. Think about it: we know about the Amiga. How much advertising would it take to make a large segment of America even CONSIDER the Amiga? It has specialized niches, but it would take more advertising than Commodore could handle to make things turn around. I take as my evidence the "Stevie" campaign. That cost Commodore $14 million dollars. What did it do? It helped, but it wasn't nearly enough. It lasted 2.5-3 months and had a reasonable amount of coverage, without being overwhelming. It would seem that $50 million would barely be enough for a year-round BIG campaign. Commodore would go bankrupt doing that. Besides, the U.S. division is either unprofitable or barely profitable, at least officially (the books can be played with for tax purposes). How can Commodore justify spending even $30 million on U.S. advertising (TV) campaigns when they might not even work at all. Commodore IS advertising, despite what most people here seem to think. The only TV ads are A500 (CDTV?) ads come Christmas time. BUT, there are ads in Music, Video and Unix magazines on a regular, monthly basis. That will get Commodore far more bang-for-the-buck than TV ads. Of the total people watching TV, how many do you think care at all about computers? -- Ethan "...Know-Nothing-Bozo the Non-Wonder Dog, an animal so stupid that it had been sacked from one of Will's own commercials for being incapable of knowing which dog food it was supposed to prefer, despite the fact that the meat in all the other bowls had engine oil poured all over it."
robart@agora.rain.com (Robert Barton) (06/24/91)
In article <1991Jun23.202728.18615@news.iastate.edu> taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: >In article <1991Jun23.194902.21351@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >>And Marc is not right all the time either, somethings he just doesn't >>know what he's talking about (e.g. "The Clipboard is intended for >>ASCII only transfer.") > > You misread my whole point with that, too. My point was that the Amiga's >clipboard does not work nearly as well as the one on the Macintosh. You >could not prove my point wrong, so you jumped on a minor detail. Typical. The point was, you were TOTALLY wrong and still refuse to admit it. Typical, indeed.
skank@iastate.edu (Skank George L) (06/24/91)
>In article <1991Jun23.202728.18615@news.iastate.edu> taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: >>In article <1991Jun23.194902.21351@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >>And Marc is not right all the time either, somethings he just doesn't >>know what he's talking about (e.g. "The Clipboard is intended for >>ASCII only transfer.") > > You misread my whole point with that, too. My point was that the Amiga's >clipboard does not work nearly as well as the one on the Macintosh. You >could not prove my point wrong, so you jumped on a minor detail. Typical. > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > / Marc Barrett -MB- | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / >/ ISU COM S Student | Internet: XGR39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU / >------------------------------------------------------------ >\ The great thing about standards is that / > \ there are so many of them to choose from. / > ------------------------------------------------------- No Marc, you missed the point. You were wrong again about some feature of the operating system, so instead of admitting that you didn't know what you were talking about, you jumped on some minor detail yourself. Typical. -- George L. Skank |Five years ago I couldn't spell engineer. /// Senior, Electrical Engineering |Now I are one. /// Iowa State University, Ames, IA | \\\ /// skank@iastate.edu |Phone: (515) 233-2165 \\X//
jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) (06/24/91)
Quoted from <1991Jun23.202728.18615@news.iastate.edu> by taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett): > In article <1991Jun23.194902.21351@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > >know what he's talking about (e.g. "The Clipboard is intended for > >ASCII only transfer.") > You misread my whole point with that, too. My point was that the Amiga's > clipboard does not work nearly as well as the one on the Macintosh. You Wrong. It does work as well as the Mac's, if not better, but applications don't use it. And thank heavens they don't, otherwise there would have been less incentive to develop things like ARexx, which are a step beyond the low-intensity cut/paste operations of a clipboard. > / Marc Barrett -MB- | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / -- *** John Bickers, TAP, NZAmigaUG. jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz *** *** "Endless variations, make it all seem new" - Devo. ***
jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) (06/24/91)
Quoted from <4193@ux.acs.umn.edu> by mmoore@ux.acs.umn.edu (Malcolm Diallo Moore): > after M? And no matter what you think of me, I'm doing my best to push Amiga > into the spotlight, so other people can actually see the damn thing. What are Why? Flaming CBM doesn't help the Amiga's cause. > * CHICAGO BULLS * Microcomputer & Workstation * "Whaddaya want, * -- *** John Bickers, TAP, NZAmigaUG. jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz *** *** "Endless variations, make it all seem new" - Devo. ***
sho@gibbs.physics.purdue.edu (Sho Kuwamoto) (06/24/91)
In article <oedipus> jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) writes: > Wrong. It does work as well as the Mac's, if not better, but > applications don't use it. And thank heavens they don't, otherwise > there would have been less incentive to develop things like ARexx, > which are a step beyond the low-intensity cut/paste operations of > a clipboard. Can someone describe ARexx to me? I'm keenly interested. I'd be especially grateful if someone could compare it to AppleEvents, but it's not really neccessary. -Sho -- sho@physics.purdue.edu
dant@ryptyde.UUCP (Daniel Tracy) (06/24/91)
Responding to the following: "Exactly. John Q Customer walks into a computer store and sees big Apple banners and big IBM Banners. And in the corner there's a little Amiga sign. Now you tell me which f*ckin computer he's gonna get first if he doesn't know everything about computers and isn't deep into the knowledge of differen- ces in systems." Not only that, but newer computer users usually have computer-using friends that they trust and ask what kind of system they should get. They, of course, only know about IBMs or Macs, and will recommend those. People in the computer industry tend to develop a strong antipathy for computer systems they don't know about, and tend to concede that their computer is better because the person that started THEM out said the same.... It's a hopeless circle. This is the same kind of thing that really pisses me off about IBM users and their attitude towards Macs. The end-user has developed attitudes about a platform he knows nothing about. The thing that fascinates me is how, getting on this board, I get the impression that Amiga users hate Macintosh's even more than IBMs! Interesting. Is it generally accepted, at least, that Macintosh machines are generally "superior" to their IBM counterparts? Is it just that Apple succeeded in establishing a second standard where Commodore's weak marketing couldn't?
taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) (06/24/91)
In article <1991Jun24.030715.511@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu>, es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > They are trying to survive. If they aren't doing enough >for you, then don't buy an Amiga. But they can't make money >appear out of thin air. I'm sure they've got 100 things they >could list that they would do with money if they had it. But they >don't. > My point is that, for Commodore to turn around the U.S. >market, they would have to put SO MUCH MONEY into the advertising >that they wouldn't be able to afford it. Think about it: we know >about the Amiga. How much advertising would it take to make a >large segment of America even CONSIDER the Amiga? It has >specialized niches, but it would take more advertising than >Commodore could handle to make things turn around. > I take as my evidence the "Stevie" campaign. That cost >Commodore $14 million dollars. What did it do? It helped, but it >wasn't nearly enough. It lasted 2.5-3 months and had a reasonable >amount of coverage, without being overwhelming. It would seem >that $50 million would barely be enough for a year-round BIG >campaign. Commodore would go bankrupt doing that. You seem to think, along with others, that Commodore is racked with debt and will go bankrupt if they borrow money to finance advertizing. This could not be further from the case. Commodore's debt:assets ratio (I said 'assets:debt' in a previous message; I had it backwards) is so low that they are virtually debt-free. This means that Commodore probably could borrow a very substantial amount of money without risking their corporate future. Consider this: most companies in the U.S. today are very highly leveraged. These companies have very high debt:assets ratios, in some cases having debts that exceeds their assets. Yet these companies do usually survive more often than not. If such highly leveraged companies can survive, Commodore can survive with a little debt. If I were Commodore, I would borrow a small amount of money ($100 million, which is less than 10% of Commodore's total annual sales) and invest that money in R&D and advertizing. > Besides, the U.S. division is either unprofitable or >barely profitable, at least officially (the books can be played >with for tax purposes). How can Commodore justify spending even >$30 million on U.S. advertising (TV) campaigns when they might >not even work at all. Because the alternative is even worse. Some people here paint a very bright future for the Amiga in the U.S., as if they cannot see reality. Here are some facts about the Amiga in the U.S.: (1) less than 800,000 machines have been sold in the past six years. (2) the bulk of these machines are low-cost consumer machines. (3) more than 5,000,000 Macintoshes have been sold in the U.S. (4) the bulk of the Macintoshes are professional-level machines in very prestigious markets. (5) Apple is selling Macintosh Classic systems like gangbusters (6) Apple is getting ready to sell Macintosh Classic systems through mass-marketing channels like K-Mart and Sears, competing directly with Commodore on Commodore's own turf. I could state more. The future is really no bright for the Amiga, and only very radical steps (like spending $50 million on advertizing) will change things. > > Commodore IS advertising, despite what most people here >seem to think. The only TV ads are A500 (CDTV?) ads come >Christmas time. BUT, there are ads in Music, Video and Unix >magazines on a regular, monthly basis. That will get Commodore >far more bang-for-the-buck than TV ads. Of the total people >watching TV, how many do you think care at all about computers? > -- Ethan A lot of them must, because Apple pours money into T.V. advertizing, and reaps the benefits of large sales figures. > >"...Know-Nothing-Bozo the Non-Wonder Dog, an animal so stupid that it >had been sacked from one of Will's own commercials for being incapable >of knowing which dog food it was supposed to prefer, despite the fact >that the meat in all the other bowls had engine oil poured all over it." ------------------------------------------------------------- / Marc Barrett -MB- | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / / ISU COM S Student | Internet: XGR39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU / ------------------------------------------------------------ \ The great thing about standards is that / \ there are so many of them to choose from. / -------------------------------------------------------
taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) (06/24/91)
In article <1991Jun24.041238.21611@agora.rain.com>, robart@agora.rain.com (Robert Barton) writes: > > The point was, you were TOTALLY wrong and still refuse to admit it. >Typical, indeed. OK, I was mistaken on a minor detail about the clipboard. In the grand scheme of things, what does this prove? The overall functionality of the Amiga's clipboard still sucks compared to the one on the Macintosh, and flaming me is not going to change that. ------------------------------------------------------------- / Marc Barrett -MB- | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / / ISU COM S Student | Internet: XGR39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU / ------------------------------------------------------------ \ The great thing about standards is that / \ there are so many of them to choose from. / -------------------------------------------------------
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (06/24/91)
In article <1991Jun24.125754.4008@news.iastate.edu> taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: > > A lot of them must, because Apple pours money into T.V. advertizing, >and reaps the benefits of large sales figures. > I guess not. They are laying off a large number of people and are having financial troubles themselves. Now that they are lowering prices they are getting lower earnings. They are getting a taste of what Commodore's position is like. -- Ethan FF buckets of bits on the bus, FF buckets of bits. Take one down, Pass it to ground, FE buckets of bits on the bus.
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (06/24/91)
In article <1991Jun24.131045.4403@news.iastate.edu> taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: >In article <1991Jun24.041238.21611@agora.rain.com>, robart@agora.rain.com (Robert Barton) writes: >> >> The point was, you were TOTALLY wrong and still refuse to admit it. >>Typical, indeed. > > OK, I was mistaken on a minor detail about the clipboard. In the grand >scheme of things, what does this prove? The overall functionality of the >Amiga's clipboard still sucks compared to the one on the Macintosh, and >flaming me is not going to change that. > 1) You were wrong in a MAJOR detail. The clipboard takes IFF, not ASCII. That means graphics, sounds, animations, etc. You implied text only. 2) How is the Amiga clipboard inferior? You haven't presented that. You simply said it was unsupported and that is why it sucks. That proves nothing. Try proving something. -- Ethan FF buckets of bits on the bus, FF buckets of bits. Take one down, Pass it to ground, FE buckets of bits on the bus.
rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) (06/25/91)
dant@ryptyde.UUCP (Daniel Tracy) writes: >has developed attitudes about a platform he knows nothing about. The thing >that fascinates me is how, getting on this board, I get the impression that >Amiga users hate Macintosh's even more than IBMs! Interesting. Is it >generally accepted, at least, that Macintosh machines are generally >"superior" to their IBM counterparts? Is it just that Apple succeeded in >establishing a second standard where Commodore's weak marketing couldn't? Personally I don't hate Mac's, I really do think those IBM compatibles make good doorstops though...And Seagate hard drives make good paperweights... Apple has had alot of different attitudes, one of them was to sue themselves into superiority, another was to make money on every computer they sell.. But they have major internal disfunctions it would seem, spending alot of money, and getting not that much new. They have no modern UNIX, no pre-emptive multi-tasking, etc, but they do have the other goodies like high density drives and 24 bit color that Commodore has not delivered on....To be fair, Commodore doesn't make as much money per unit as Apple does, so Apple SHOULD be better, SHOULD have a real UNIX, should have pre-emptive multi-tasking, but comes up short in compairson over the whole range of units sold..The Hardware is only as good as the operating system...When you start getting 68040 Macs, they SHOULD be as powerful as some small mainframes, but will lack real substance in the lowest levels of the OS..And without Unix, you're going to use the native enviroment...As more "power" users come out of the computer explosion of the '80s, they might be cold to the Mac if they look at it from an objective standpoint. Thats why they advertise so much... I would agree with the Mac ads that say they will eat a 386sx for lunch... And I would own a Mac if the Amiga didn't exist when I finally was able to afford it...But I would have had to wait until 1987 or so to get the color I wanted...I got my Amiga in 1985 when everyone was buying ugly IBM Compatibles...Glad I did too, I have been able to upgrade my computer every 3 years thanks to Commodore's trade up programs, which with the Mac I probably would have been stuck in the first one I bought...and I was happy until 1990 with my A2000, because it still outperformed the original Mac II's I looked at.. Anyways, Apple is 5th in the computer industry, and Commodore is 29th. For being 29th, Commodore does quite a good job with design, manafacturing, and delivery, they just can't advertise like #5 can...Apple made thier inroads in Education - not marketing, and thats the route Commodore should take... -- C-UseNet V0.42e Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) DETROIT - Were guns outnumber people!
navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David C. Navas) (06/25/91)
In article <1991Jun24.150701.1686@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > 2) How is the Amiga clipboard inferior? You haven't >presented that. You simply said it was unsupported and that is >why it sucks. That proves nothing. Try proving something. > -- Ethan Of course it does, Ethan. Look, the clipboard exists mainly for people actually INTERESTED in providing a reasonable user interface. If it isn't used, it is definitely inferior to one that is. Don't you think? Let's say Apple stuck an AMD 29000 chip into every Mac to speed up graphics. Except that their operating system would need to be rewritten to support it -- and they never did that. Does that make their design inferior or superior to the Amiga chipset? Inferior, of course. All these Mac-heads would be sitting there talking about their cool graphics chips, and we'd be telling them that they were NEVER USED, so WHAT'S THE POINT? Would you then say, well just because they were never used doesn't make it inferior? Or, perhaps more realistically, they provide for DMA driven activity in their top of the line model, but never updated their OS to support it.... Same thing goes for OS's and software. Take a pill, dude, our OS doesn't even have Paste(), Copy() or Cut() routines -- sure the equivalents may only be twenty lines of code, but it's sixty lines of code that isn't in the OS. David Navas navas@cory.berkeley.edu 2.0 :: "You can't have your cake and eat it too." Also try c186br@holden, c260-ay@ara and c184-ap@torus
es1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (06/25/91)
In article <14248@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU writes: >In article <1991Jun24.150701.1686@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: >> 2) How is the Amiga clipboard inferior? You haven't >>presented that. You simply said it was unsupported and that is >>why it sucks. That proves nothing. Try proving something. >> -- Ethan > >Of course it does, Ethan. Look, the clipboard exists mainly for people >actually INTERESTED in providing a reasonable user interface. If it isn't >used, it is definitely inferior to one that is. Don't you think? > So you are saying the simple fact that the clipboard isn't used means that it sucks? Well then, the Amiga sucks. The Amiga isn't used much in the U.S., so it must be terrible. I have never claimed that the OS does as much work for the programmer as the Mac does. GadTools is a step closer to gadget and menu functionality, but it still doesn't do all that the Mac does. The printer isn't as well integrated. Etc. I know this. But none of it proves that the clipboard sucks. It is unused, and that sucks. -- Ethan FF buckets of bits on the bus, FF buckets of bits. Take one down, Pass it to ground, FE buckets of bits on the bus.
rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) (06/25/91)
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: >In article <1991Jun24.125754.4008@news.iastate.edu> taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu w >> >> A lot of them must, because Apple pours money into T.V. advertizing, >>and reaps the benefits of large sales figures. >> > I guess not. They are laying off a large number of people >and are having financial troubles themselves. Now that they are >lowering prices they are getting lower earnings. They are getting >a taste of what Commodore's position is like. AND THEY MAY GET A UNION TO HARASS THEM!!! They deserve it, it will keep their legal department very busy with pointless employee concerns/contracts than suing others... -- C-UseNet V0.42e Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) Whats wrong with Detroit? Name it, we got it, and if we don't WE'LL TAKE IT!
rjc@churchy.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (06/25/91)
In article <14248@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU writes: >In article <1991Jun24.150701.1686@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: >> 2) How is the Amiga clipboard inferior? You haven't >>presented that. You simply said it was unsupported and that is >>why it sucks. That proves nothing. Try proving something. >> -- Ethan > >Of course it does, Ethan. Look, the clipboard exists mainly for people >actually INTERESTED in providing a reasonable user interface. If it isn't >used, it is definitely inferior to one that is. Don't you think? No, the design isn't inferior, it's the implementation that is. The Amiga clipboard.device is very robust and can take any type of data. If developers don't support it, that doesn't make the clipboard.device itself inferior, it makes the implementation inferior in practice. >Let's say Apple stuck an AMD 29000 chip into every Mac to speed up graphics. >Except that their operating system would need to be rewritten to support it -- >and they never did that. Does that make their design inferior or superior to >the Amiga chipset? > >Inferior, of course. All these Mac-heads would be sitting there talking about >their cool graphics chips, and we'd be telling them that they were NEVER >USED, so WHAT'S THE POINT? Would you then say, well just because they were >never used doesn't make it inferior? Your example is flawed. The clipboard.device has been in the OS since the beginning and nothing had to be rewritten. A more accurate example would be if Apple made some interface routines for the AMD and developers didn't use it. That doesn't make the AMD itself inferior to the Amiga chipset, it makes the implementation of it's use inferior. >Or, perhaps more realistically, they provide for DMA driven activity in their >top of the line model, but never updated their OS to support it.... Still the wrong example. A better example would be if there were OS routines for using the DMA chip but Application developers refused to use it. >Same thing goes for OS's and software. > >Take a pill, dude, our OS doesn't even have Paste(), Copy() or Cut() >routines -- sure the equivalents may only be twenty lines of code, but it's >sixty lines of code that isn't in the OS. Sheesh, what a nitpick. It takes about 12 lines of code to do a Cut() to the clipboard. If a developer is so lazy that he can't implement a very easy routine like this than he needs to pack up his computer and head for the IBM. Apple's problem is they like to put EVERYTHING in the OS. Hell, they may as well incorperate Microsoft Word into the OS with a single function cal{, void Word(char *path); Just so you know, 2.0's iffparse.library includes 2 calls, OpenClipBoard and CloseClipBoard which aid the programmer who is too lazy to set up an IORequest. So we have concluded 1) The Amiga clipboard.device is totally open in design and supports the same amount of data that the Mac's does. (contrary to Marc's uninformed statement that it supports ASCII only) 2) The clipboard.device never took off because Amiga developers choose not to support the clipboard (and some of them don't even support the Amiga OS, e.g. bypass it and go to the hardware, etc) There is nothing Commodore can do about this, the users must demand an end to this and not buy products that break the rules. When you talk about the Amiga's clipboard, you must distinguish between the clipboard _itself_ and how developers choose to use it. >David Navas navas@cory.berkeley.edu > 2.0 :: "You can't have your cake and eat it too." >Also try c186br@holden, c260-ay@ara and c184-ap@torus -- / INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ | INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| \ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * /
smp@myamiga.UUCP (Steven M. Palm) (06/25/91)
In <4190@ux.acs.umn.edu> mmoore@ux.acs.umn.edu (Malcolm Diallo Moore) writes: > >What the **** is WRONG with Commodore?? To all the Commodore people who >read this net, I don't give a *** **** WHAT department you work in (because >you represent Commodore in any aspect) How do you all expect to make any >money when you turn your back on people who are trying to help you SELL >your computer?! Excuse me, but I believe it needed stating that those people associated with Commodore are NOT associated with Commodore while in this Net. They are here simply becuase they choose to be, and anything they say has NO affiliation with Commodore, at least not officially. >wanted to buy a Mac, I WOULD have waited. But I wanted an Amiga, dammit, >because first of all it's a powerful computer at a low price, and second, >it has the POTENTIAL (notice how I used 'POTENTIAL') to go very far in the >computer world. It's a shame that people who use the language you do with the fluidity you seem to enjoy it have to be affiliated with the Amiga at all. Yes, you may be trying to make some valid points, but no, your language is NOT appreciated, and it does nothing to enhance your presentation, but it does detract from it VERY much. -- /-----------------+--------------------------+-----------------------------\ | smp@myamiga.UUCP | myamiga!smp@fps.mcw.edu | rutgers!uwm!fps!myamiga!smp | \-----------------+--------------------------+-----------------------------/
peter@Sugar.NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) (06/25/91)
In article <113@ryptyde.UUCP> dant@ryptyde.UUCP (Daniel Tracy) writes: > Amiga users hate Macintosh's even more than IBMs! Interesting. Is it > generally accepted, at least, that Macintosh machines are generally > "superior" to their IBM counterparts? Is it just that Apple succeeded in > establishing a second standard where Commodore's weak marketing couldn't? There are two reasons: 1. The Original Mac O/S, for all its problems, was technically superior to IBM's. But the "computer appliance" idea and the attempt to push the Lisa at the Mac's expense locked the Mac into their original design too long. Too many applications depended on the design flaws, so they couldn't be fixed. 2. IBM hasn't been as blatant about using litigation in lieu of innovation. Both these facts add up to a perception of a criminal waste of potential, and panicky attempts to cover up for their mistakes. Nobody expects IBM to have a clue... -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>. 'U` "Have you hugged your wolf today?"
navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David C. Navas) (06/25/91)
Okay, I missed something. Maybe you can help clear it up? In article <1991Jun24.230638.7865@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@churchy.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >In article <14248@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU writes: >>In article <1991Jun24.150701.1686@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: >>> 2) How is the Amiga clipboard inferior? You haven't >>>presented that. You simply said it was unsupported and that is >>>why it sucks. That proves nothing. Try proving something. >>> -- Ethan >> >>Of course it does, Ethan. Look, the clipboard exists mainly for people >>actually INTERESTED in providing a reasonable user interface. If it isn't >>used, it is definitely inferior to one that is. Don't you think? > > No, the design isn't inferior, it's the implementation that is. Okay, let's review that atrocious mess ;) Ethan says to -MB- "You simply said it was unsupported and that is why it sucks." He then claims that this proves nothing. I claim that an unsupported clipboard sucks. You seem to get hung up with this design/implementation thing. Seems to me that's irrelevant. I still claim an unsupported clipboard sucks. >>Take a pill, dude, our OS doesn't even have Paste(), Copy() or Cut() >>routines -- sure the equivalents may only be twenty lines of code, but it's >>sixty lines of code that isn't in the OS. > > Sheesh, what a nitpick. It takes about 12 lines of code to do a >Cut() to the clipboard. If a developer is so lazy that he can't ... >EVERYTHING in the OS. Hell, they may as well incorperate Microsoft >Word into the OS with a single function cal{, void Word(char *path); >Just so you know, 2.0's iffparse.library includes 2 calls, >OpenClipBoard and CloseClipBoard which aid the programmer who is too lazy >to set up an IORequest. I realize that, I know both of the authors.... These things didn't exist six years ago when the clipboard did. It was more than 12 lines there, after all you had to wrap it up in IFF. In addition, older versions of the clipboard lost memory on every call -- not what you would call a robust design, either.... Taking your argument to an extreme, I could argue that none of this Read(), Write(), Open(), DeleteFile() nonsense was necessary, we'd just all use IORequests. I don't think you're arguing for that? Microsoft Word shouldn't be in ROM, text objects should, however. It is a distinct advantage -- having programmed systems with them and without them. As long as they aren't quite as crazy as Xt text objects, that is ;) > So we have concluded >1) The Amiga clipboard.device is totally open in design and supports >the same amount of data that the Mac's does. (contrary to >Marc's uninformed statement that it supports ASCII only) Yes. I really think that thread died, no? Anyway... >2) The clipboard.device never took off because Amiga developers choose >not to support the clipboard (and some of them don't even support the >Amiga OS, e.g. bypass it and go to the hardware, etc) There is nothing >Commodore can do about this, the users must demand an end to this Bull. Amiga developers didn't use it because it was buggy. So was the initial OS, for that matter. Commodore has a responsibility to support it's developers. If we say (as we have been) that providing a clipboard.library with Paste(), Copy() Cut() calls would induce us to use the clipboard, Cmdre ought to provide us with (at least) an amiga.lib which had these calls. Is that *really* too much to ask for? As I recall, some sort of source was in Amiga Mail, I'd have to dig back and verify, though... In addition, CMdre has taken the first step and published a Style Book. > When you talk about the Amiga's clipboard, you must distinguish between >the clipboard _itself_ and how developers choose to use it. To the man on the street, it makes no difference. To the consumer, it makes no difference. When we talk about a consumer product, I'm afraid that's the bottom line, as they say. David Navas navas@cory.berkeley.edu 2.0 :: "You can't have your cake and eat it too." Also try c186br@holden, c260-ay@ara and c184-ap@torus
taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) (06/25/91)
In article <14248@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>, navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David C. Navas) writes: >Let's say Apple stuck an AMD 29000 chip into every Mac to speed up graphics. >Except that their operating system would need to be rewritten to support it -- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Why would the operating system need to be rewritten to support the AMD 29000? Apple already has a graphics card with an AMD 29000, and it works fine with most Macintosh programs. > >Or, perhaps more realistically, they provide for DMA driven activity in their >top of the line model, but never updated their OS to support it.... All versions of the Macintosh system from 6.0.5 and up fully support DMA. Systems 6.0.7 and 7.0 actually have fairly sophisticated DMA support. (It might actually be the DMA support in these versions of the MAC OS that is rendering them incompatible with A-Max). > >David Navas navas@cory.berkeley.edu > 2.0 :: "You can't have your cake and eat it too." >Also try c186br@holden, c260-ay@ara and c184-ap@torus ------------------------------------------------------------- / Marc Barrett -MB- | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / / ISU COM S Student | Internet: XGR39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU / ------------------------------------------------------------ \ The great thing about standards is that / \ there are so many of them to choose from. / -------------------------------------------------------
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (06/26/91)
In article <rkushner.2079@sycom.UUCP> rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) writes: > >AND THEY MAY GET A UNION TO HARASS THEM!!! They deserve it, it will keep their >legal department very busy with pointless employee concerns/contracts than >suing others... Hmm, this guy obviously doesn't like unions :-). Well, I already heard many evil things about US unions (Mafia, etc.), BUT: Did you ever realize that serious (I mean *serious*) unions are one of the strengths of European countries, especially Germany? If handled properly, this provides a process to very well balance the needs of capital and workers, in the end to the benefit of both. -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David C. Navas) (06/26/91)
In article <1991Jun25.125036.28131@news.iastate.edu> taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: >In article <14248@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>, navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David C. Navas) writes: >>Let's say Apple stuck an AMD 29000 chip into every Mac to speed up graphics. ^^^^^^^^^ We are for-saying, see. I never said that this was reality, this is an EXAMPLE.... >>Except that their operating system would need to be rewritten to support it -- >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Why would the operating system need to be rewritten to support the It's already been done, but what I was saying is -- "suppose that it were true that..." Get it? >>Or, perhaps more realistically, they provide for DMA driven activity in their >>top of the line model, but never updated their OS to support it.... > All versions of the Macintosh system from 6.0.5 and up fully support DMA. Not the IIfx's hard disk DMA, which is what I was referring to. I've heard that it isn't even used under 7.0. Is that true? I hadn't expected something that bad from them.... David Navas navas@cory.berkeley.edu 2.0 :: "You can't have your cake and eat it too." Also try c186br@holden, c260-ay@ara and c184-ap@torus
rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) (06/26/91)
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) writes: >In article <rkushner.2079@sycom.UUCP> rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) wri >> >>AND THEY MAY GET A UNION TO HARASS THEM!!! They deserve it, it will keep thei >>legal department very busy with pointless employee concerns/contracts than >>suing others... > >Hmm, this guy obviously doesn't like unions :-). Well, I already heard >many evil things about US unions (Mafia, etc.), BUT: Did you ever >realize that serious (I mean *serious*) unions are one of the strengths >of European countries, especially Germany? If handled properly, this >provides a process to very well balance the needs of capital and >workers, in the end to the benefit of both. Hehe, I never said I don't like unions, but a non-union company can trim workers, cut pay, etc, whenever they like...So, Apple won't be as flexable if they get a union in there....Unions are necessary evil, but a majority of the silicon valley is non-union, so they probably don't know how to react and will screw up learning how to dance... I am currently trying to get a job with General Motors, and would have to join the UAW if I do...Everyone I have met from the UAW so far has been really cool. I tried to get a refrigeration job once with the local Stationary Engineers union and they looked/acted like the "mafia" type you heard about... (and they all had shifty, beady eyes ;-) >-- >Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... >Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk -- C-UseNet V0.42e Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) It works better if you plug it in.
chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Erik Funkenbusch) (06/26/91)
>In article <7471@vela.acs.oakland.edu$ lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: >$ >$Every day, in every way, I see myself agreeing more and more with Marc >$Barret on more and more things. Not so much the technical aspects of >$the machines as much as the simple fact that Commodore keeps screwing >$up. This bothers me because I really can't stand Marc that much and >$yet I keep nodding my head when I read his posts. I don't know if he >$has a clue as to what needs to be done to fix things, but he's right >$on the money when he says CBM is screwing up. >$ >And you people can sit there and laff and dis him if you want to; yeah he >may be a rathead and an asshole and all that, but if you really look at >what he's saying, you know that he's exactly right. No he's not. The main reason is that he as well as most of us don't really know what commodore is doing. besides that, his facts are wrong, as well as his logic. >$My boyfriend runs a Paragon BBS off and on when he's got the extra $$$ >$to do so. He writes a door program called Castle Dungeon for it that >$is popular on a lot of Paragon/StarNet, TransAmiga, and XenoLink BBS >$systems. This puts him in contact with a lot of other BBS sysops. One >$of the ones he's become good friends with runs ClickMeTwice BBS, a 6 >$line system dedicated to serving the Amiga, which also happens to be a >$computer dealer for the Amiga. Al, the owner of the store and BBS Wrong, Al's Son owns and runs the BBS. >$system, is going bankrupt selling Amigas. He has recently been posting >$some of the reasons why in the Amiga FidoNet Echomail areas. Some of >$you may have already seen them. He is not alone. We have heard from And he has not shown a single shred of proof. he claims reams of documentation, but when questioned keeps reverting back to old tired statements like "when i sent my tech guy to get trained they didn't open the computer". Everything he has stated has been pure hearsay. He's even gone so far as to accuse the CBM execs of being *convicted* of Stock Fraud. heh.. he's an Idiot that is spewing, this guy is worse than -MB-. (gosh i never thought anyone could be that bad). >$other dealers around the country who have had multiple problems with >$Commodore resulting in their not being able to maintain a profit and >$thus closing their doors. No, AL CLAIMS other dealers have talked to him. i've not seen one post from an Amiga dealer. and only heresay from people who claim their dealers told them something. >$To me, this says that something just isn't right down at the blue and >$red. Al cited the fact that at the dealer's conference that was held >$when Copperman first arrived more advertising, a virtual blitz they >$were told, was about to be launched. TV, Print, Radio. The works. >$Everyone was excited and went home to wait and watch. Alas, there were >$many market areas virtually untouched by this "Blitz". Al's area, and >$even here in the Metro Detroit area, saw little, if any, of the ads >$and then they were usually on around 1 or 2 A.M. when most of the >$world was asleep. Did Copperman ever say it would be a blanket blitz of the whole country? nah, didn't think so... >By the way, for the week, Commodore stock has dropped to 12 down 2 1/4 from last >week. Yeah, so what? Apple, Ibm, and everyone elses stocks have dropped too. Apple's by 33%. That proves nothing, other than people aren't buy Tech stocks right now. >$Al called Commodore and voiced his complaints and was only told "Come >$up with $10,000 and we'll co-op one with you for your area." What? If >$Al had $10,000 he wouldn't NEED the advertising that was PROMISED, >$he'd be making a profit on a machine that would have to be selling. He >$isn't though and as such he will be closing down. He's fully expecting >$Commodore to pull his dealership status for having the gall to speak >$out about his problems, and with the way Commodore has been the last >$few years, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they did. Al has proven his inability to communicate properly and in a business manner, it's no wonder cbm blew him off. if someone called you demanding everything under the sun you'd blow him off too. >What the hell is WRONG with Commodore?? To all the Commodore people who >read this net, I don't give a god damn WHAT department you work in (because >you represent Commodore in any aspect) How do you all expect to make any >money when you turn your back on people who are trying to help you SELL >your computer?! By getting rid of people like Al i would suppose. Al will end up in Jail for defamation of character, and all sorts of legal things if he keeps rambling about untruths. >$My SO has been a Loyal Commodore user since the days of the Pet >$computers and has owned several different Commodore machines. Pet, >$Vic20, C-64 (several of these), C-128, and Amiga 1000 and 2000. I >$converted from Apple with the arrivial of the Amiga. All in all we >$have little complaints with the machine itself, even if it is getting >$dated compared to the rest. Our complaints are with the relative >$in-activity at Commodore with selling machines. Sure they're doing >$great overseas, but I don't live in Europe so that does me no good. They are good here too. They can't even keep 3000's in stock. >Let me tell you like this: If I'd have saved just $600 more then I would >have gotten a Mac LC on ed discount. But I needed a computer right THEN, not >three and four months down the road. I needed something I could do my >school work on THEN, not right before school ended so it could sit up in >my house collecting dust. So sell your amiga and get that LC. >$There were even rumors for awhile that Commodore was thinking about >$shutting down US sales seeing as they couldn't do well here. Couldn't >$do well? They haven't done anything to promote good sales here. Makes >$you wish you could sit down with the CBM big-wigs and say "Hi! I'm >$Jane/Joe User." (SLAP! SLAP! SLAP! SLAP!) "WAKE UP YOU IDIOTS!" Don't be rediculous. what do you call the power-up program? this is doing nothing? what do you call advertising? have you seen the 4 page ad's they've taken out in Unix World? >Exactly. John Q Customer walks into a computer store and sees big Apple >banners and big IBM Banners. And in the corner there's a little Amiga sign. >Now you tell me which f*ckin computer he's gonna get first if he doesn't >know everything about computers and isn't deep into the knowledge of differen- >ces in systems. Apple's and IBM's also sell for much higher prices giving dealers a much larger profit margin. So what you want is for the price of amiga's to jump 100% so dealers can afford good store fronts? will you buy an Amiga when that happens? >$I once had big hopes for Commodore and the Amiga, but both seemed >$doomed to stay a second class company with a second class machine. >$When the rumors of the Hewlett Packard buy-out were floating around I >$PRAYED it would happen! Whatever HP did with the Amiga, it would STILL >$have been more than what CBM was doing. Same thing with the recent >$Sony rumors. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE will someone with some >$advertising BRAINS and interest in advanced R&D PLEASE BUY OUT >$COMMODORE and get this thing MOVING in SOME sort of direction!?!? You have *NO* idea about what CBM is doing. you've proven that with this post. you state cbm isn't doing anything when they are. >Somebody needs to do something. Because we're all getting jacked, and every >body knows it, but we're not man enough to admit it. No, your not man enough to wake up and look what's happening. >$Enough of my ramblings. I've given up hope on CBM and the Amiga. I >$will continue to use my machine happily until Commodore inevitably >$dies off and then I will probably buy a Macintosh. Sure it's more >$expensive, but there won't be a CBM around to offer anything better so >$why sweat it. It's been fun Commodore, wish you would have done a >$better job. In one breath you scream about how expensive other computers are, and in the next you scream that CBM doesn't have the money to do what should be done. it's either being expensive, or not being able to shell out billions in advertising. >AND To those Sucker Ducks who wanna lash out and say "Why don't you just >Buy a Mac or an IBM if you're so scared?"...: > >Motherf*ck that! That's all you have to say! Which means you ain't trying >to do shit with the computer you got, and you can't face facts that there are >some serious questions in The Amiga's Future, if we even have one! DO we have >a future? Do we?! We won't if we rely on backhoes like you with your wickety- >wick-wack lash-outs because YOU know YOU are scared too! If I had REALLY >wanted to buy a Mac, I WOULD have waited. But I wanted an Amiga, dammit, >because first of all it's a powerful computer at a low price, and second, >it has the POTENTIAL (notice how I used 'POTENTIAL') to go very far in the >computer world. But weak sucker ducks just resting on their laurels ain't >gonna cut it. And you KNOW it and you might as well DEAL with it. why don't you do something about it then? you haven't given any suggestions as to how cbm could improve other than things that can't happen without increasing the profit margins of dealers. >Yall might think this is funny and I'm just blowing a lot of air out of my >butt but I'm dead serious because I've been watching, and I damn sure don't >like what I see, and although I'm actively trying to change that situation, >I don't see anybody else doing anything but talking a lot of technical >bullshit (not that it's all bullshit, but will it get C= into the office >and into the howwwwse?!) Well you must be half blind then, since you obviously don't see the good things that are happening. >I'm telling All of you, you had better Get Wit the Program, before the program >gets Jacked from under you, and you're grabbing at nothing. > >P.S. To those that may be offended by this- You know that key on your keyboard >between 'B' and 'M'? Hit that motherf*cker. You need to chill, and think about the situation. .--------------------------------------------------------------------------. | UUCP: {amdahl!tcnet, crash}!orbit!pnet51!chucks | "I know he's come back | | ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!chucks@nosc.mil | from the dead, but do | | INET: chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org | you really think he's | |-------------------------------------------------| moved back in?" | | Amiga programmer at large, employment options | Lou Diamond Philips in | | welcome, inquire within. | "The First Power". | `--------------------------------------------------------------------------'
dant@ryptyde.UUCP (Daniel Tracy) (06/26/91)
Responding to the following: "Anyways, Apple is 5th in the computer industry, and Commodore is 29th. For being 29th, Commodore does quite a good job with design, manafacturing, and delivery, they just can't advertise like #5 can...Apple made thier inroads in Education - not marketing, and thats the route Commodore should take..." I mean counting IBM compatibles as one standard. IBM compats dominate Macs by 15:1 and Macs are #2? Man, IBMs have a major monopoly.
dant@ryptyde.UUCP (Daniel Tracy) (06/26/91)
Responding to the following: "So you are saying the simple fact that the clipboard isn't used means that it sucks? Well then, the Amiga sucks. The Amiga isn't used much in the U.S., so it must be terrible." Hmmmm. Okay, I guess I can agree with that. :-) Sorry, I just couldn't resist. I'm a Mac fanatic. Although I consider Macs generally superior, the Amiga does have some very interesting points. The chipset must have been incredible in its day. The kernel still is, not in features (I hate Amiga users that chant "Pre-emptive multitasking"), but in efficiency. Now just imagine a Mac with that kernel...(Sculley calling his lawyers)
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (06/26/91)
In article <rkushner.2793@sycom.UUCP>, rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) writes: > > Hehe, I never said I don't like unions, but a non-union company can trim > workers, cut pay, etc, whenever they like...So, Apple won't be as flexable if > they get a union in there. That's exactly the point. What you call flexible, we Europeans call Wild-West. If a company is more forced (also by laws) into responsibility also for its workers, then the whole climate changes. Then a management necessarily gets much more sensible for the changes of the company's situation, they do think and plan for much longer periods and thus provide more long-term stability. (Yes, this is exaggerated a bit to the idealistic view, but so you better see my point.) It's that short-term politics only seeing the next financial quarter, that is a typical weekness of US business, in my eyes. I won't state that European ways are ideal, but more tailored for long-term stability. And when you drive this policy to the extreme, what do you get? Japan Inc. Now they are again so extreme, that it's exaggerated. Perhaps a moderate middle way is the best. -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (06/27/91)
In article <126@ryptyde.UUCP> dant@ryptyde.UUCP (Daniel Tracy) writes: >Responding to the following: > >"So you are saying the simple fact that the clipboard >isn't used means that it sucks? Well then, the Amiga sucks. The >Amiga isn't used much in the U.S., so it must be terrible." > >Hmmmm. Okay, I guess I can agree with that. :-) > >Sorry, I just couldn't resist. I'm a Mac fanatic. Although I consider Macs >generally superior, the Amiga does have some very interesting points. The >chipset must have been incredible in its day. The kernel still is, not in >features (I hate Amiga users that chant "Pre-emptive multitasking"), but >in efficiency. Now just imagine a Mac with that kernel...(Sculley calling >his lawyers) The features are the better part about the "kernel" (otherwise know as exec.library). Some features that Mac has been missing for a long time are things like PutMsg()/GetMsg()/Signal(), the ability to do interprocess communication which it only recently got. Or what about re-executable/re-entrable/sharable libraries/devices which get loaded dynamically on demand. The efficiency is in the features. -- / INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ | INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| \ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * /