rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (06/08/91)
In article <1991Jun7.233654.24493@news.iastate.edu> taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: > It is very different. The Amiga's clipboard was originally intended only >for transferring straight ASCII text between applications. It was never >intended to even be used to transfer graphics. The clipboard on the Mac, >however, is very sophisticated. It transfers text and graphics flawlessly >between applications, and nearly all applications support the clipboard. Marc, where did you read this? All documentation I have on the Clipboard refers to clips as "data" not Ascii. The clipboard is general purpose simular to Matt's FIFO library. The only thing wrong with the Amiga's clipboard is that Commodore failed to provide a style/interface guide for Apps until recently so developers were pretty much free to do anything. Show me where C= documents the clipboard as "intended for ascii." I know it works with IFFs because I have programs that save IFFs to the clipboard if instructed. > So, even if all Amiga applications supported the clipboard (a very big >IF!), the Amiga's clipboard would still not compare at all to the clipboard >on the Macintosh. The MAC's clipboard is as far above the Amiga's >clipboard as the Amiga's multitasking is above the MAC's multitasking. Explain why it is so better (e.g. give an example of the programmers interface to it.) > The Amiga's clipboard cannot be fixed, as it is too unsupported and >weak to be fixed. The clipboard needs to be totally replaced by something >that supports transferring of graphic images from one application to >another, independent of resolution or color format. However, even if this >were done, and the clipboard was replaced by something far better, it >would stile pale compared to the clipboard of the Macintosh simply because >the MAC's clipboard is supported by nearly all applications. In other words "the Amiga is doomed." Marc, you can apply the above paragraph to System 7.0 's InterApp Communication. It's inferior to the Amiga message system and Arexx, not many Apple's will support it (whilest Arexx and Message ports are supported by almost every popular productivety application on the Amiga) Your reasoning is astrounding. You have managed to declare the Amiga clipboard a failure, no matter HOW good it would get in the future simply because alot of Apps would need updating meanwhile you have not condemned any of System 7's new features which need updates to take advantage of. No wonder you get bashed for stuff like this. Another reason I guess the clipboard never took off on the Amiga is IFF and multitasking. It's such a simple task to save an IFF file to a pipe and load it from another app. If Commodore ever improves the clipboard (perhaps by adding a clipboard.library, or adding library functions to the .device itself, that provides a higher level DIG interface) a large amount of Amiga apps would support it. The Amiga developer net isn't dead, in fact most programs are constantly being updated, take ASDG's AdPro which is extremely flexible and is getting routine updates to support stuff like HAM-E, Firecracker, and drivers for the high-end scanners. All OS's share one common ground, new functionality and features added to the OS require software to be updated to take advantage of the new features. Show me a platform that automagically updates software via an AI algorithm to use new tools added in the OS and I'll gladly sell my Amiga. (no, OS level improvements don't count such as cosmetics, new gadgets that are handled by the systems software and not the program, etc.) >>-- >>Matt Ranney -- mjr@uther.calvin.edu >>sendmail: error reading file /home/mjr/.signature (core dumped) > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > / Marc Barrett -MB- | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / >/ ISU COM S Student | Internet: XGR39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU / >------------------------------------------------------------ >\ The great thing about standards is that / > \ there are so many of them to choose from. / > ------------------------------------------------------- -- / INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ | INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| \ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * /
torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) (06/08/91)
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > In other words "the Amiga is doomed." Marc, you can apply the above >paragraph to System 7.0 's InterApp Communication. It's inferior to >the Amiga message system and Arexx In what way? >not many Apple's [sic] will support it Not yet, but they will all have to if they want to sell. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu "And in the death, as the last few corpses lay rotting in the slimy thoroughfare, the shutters lifted in inches, high on Poacher's Hill..."
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (06/08/91)
In article <1991Jun8.030855.18976@neon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) writes: >rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > >> In other words "the Amiga is doomed." Marc, you can apply the above >>paragraph to System 7.0 's InterApp Communication. It's inferior to >>the Amiga message system and Arexx > > In what way? Real time speed for one. The Amiga's message system is based off its signal system. If a task is waiting for a certain event, and some external signal causes that event to happen the waiting task will be run (even better if it's a very high priority). Since the Mac is not preemptive, if a task gives up control via WaitNextEvent and an event arrives, that task won't get the CPU until the other running task gives up control. Standardization. The Amiga has had interprocess communication from day 1. It will be awhile before the Mac catches up. Furthermore, I think the design paradigm most Mac programmers follow is still etched in a single-tasking way of thinking (your App owns the system at the moment.) Speed. Amiga messages are not copied, only pointers are passed, and messages are reused. Arexx. Nuff said. Let me give an example. Any Amiga user could take a bbs with an Arexx port, add a menu to the board called "Process a bitmap", he could then set up a front end to ASDG's Art Department and offer (optionally at a price) Color/Printer processing. Or one could set up a fast machine with Arexx serial server and allow user to upload 3d objects and have them rendered by your favorite ray-tracer. Implementing database services would be very easy with something like MFF+. Some people say Arexx is too complex, I disagree. Experience proves otherwise. A large amount of Skyline and C-Net bbses in my area have been customized totally with Arexx and done by sysops who I consider to be not very computer literate. In fact, one of them even converted some basic C64 games to Arexx and put them up as "doors" in his bbs. Besides, most companies provide sample Arexx scripts for things like interfacing CED to SAS/C. IAC doesn't give you the functionality of the Amiga's signal, message, and semaphore system. [enter small tangent] Concerning multitasking, does the Mac even define the concept of pure(reentrable-rexecutable) code? On the Amiga, programs used shared libraries instead of "link" libraries (on the Amiga, the OS link library is really a "glue" library). This means executables are smaller (they don't include extra code that all Apps need). Futhermore, multiple copies run from the same memory. This allows the Amiga to run more programs with less memory than other computers do. I could run 10 copies of my favorite editor right now and only use about 200k of memory(sans the memory needed for windows). Resident code executes fast too, no load time whatsoever (even ram disks generate load times) [end tangent] >>not many Apple's [sic] will support it > > Not yet, but they will all have to if they want to sell. Exactly my point. I'm trying to point out the flaw in Marc's arguement. His article said that no matter _how_ good the Amiga's clipboard got in the future it would never surpass the Mac's because the current apps don't support it. This is BS and a double-standard. If the clipboard can never surpass the Macs because "current apps don't support it." Then the same applies to the Mac in the subjects of preemptive multitasking, a real time message system, a built in scripting language, balloon help, and whatever else you want to throw in. The Amiga market will adjust to OS changes just as the Mac market will. If you treat this arguement any differently than you are applying a double-standard and changing the rules you are judging each system by, which means you're not worth debating. ("you" normally means Marc, but it can apply to you too if you choose to adopt the arguement "X can _never_ be as good as Y because X isn't supported fully yet at _this_ time, however if Y gets new features that X had, Y will be better because Y will automagically be supported by all apps." ) >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? torrie@cs.stanford.edu >"And in the death, as the last few corpses lay rotting in the slimy > thoroughfare, the shutters lifted in inches, high on Poacher's Hill..." -- / INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ | INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| \ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * /
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (06/08/91)
In article <1991Jun8.010653.21706@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >In article <1991Jun7.233654.24493@news.iastate.edu> taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: >> It is very different. The Amiga's clipboard was originally intended only >>for transferring straight ASCII text between applications. It was never >>intended to even be used to transfer graphics. The clipboard on the Mac, >>however, is very sophisticated. It transfers text and graphics flawlessly >>between applications, and nearly all applications support the clipboard. > > Marc, where did you read this? All documentation I have on the >Clipboard refers to clips as "data" not Ascii. The clipboard is >general purpose simular to Matt's FIFO library. The only thing wrong >with the Amiga's clipboard is that Commodore failed to provide >a style/interface guide for Apps until recently so developers were >pretty much free to do anything. Show me where C= documents the >clipboard as "intended for ascii." I know it works with IFFs >because I have programs that save IFFs to the clipboard if instructed. > Marc once again doesn't know what he's talking about. However, I thought the reason no one used it is that no one wanted to deal with converting to IFF and the other complications that the clipboard added. >> So, even if all Amiga applications supported the clipboard (a very big >>IF!), the Amiga's clipboard would still not compare at all to the clipboard >>on the Macintosh. The MAC's clipboard is as far above the Amiga's >>clipboard as the Amiga's multitasking is above the MAC's multitasking. > > Explain why it is so better (e.g. give an example of the programmers >interface to it.) > The difference isn't in the clipboard, as Marc implies, but merely in that the clipboard is used. -- Ethan Now the world has gone to bed, Now I lay me down to sleep, Darkness won't engulf my head, Try to count electric sheep, I can see by infrared, Sweet dream wishes you can keep, How I hate the night. How I hate the night. -- Marvin
dant@ryptyde.UUCP (Daniel Tracy) (06/09/91)
Responding to the following: " All OS's share one common ground, new functionality and features added to the OS require software to be updated to take advantage of the new features. Show me a platform that automagically updates software via an AI algorithm to use new tools added in the OS and I'll gladly sell my Amiga. (no, OS level improvements don't count such as cosmetics, new gadgets that are handled by the systems software and not the program, etc.)" I don't agree. The more work an OS does for applications the more the OS can be updated to add functionality without requiring apps to be rewritten. You contradict yourself in this paragraph. You say that new functionality added at the OS level doesn't count. OS level? Gee, I wonder what other level the improvements would be implimented on? Anyway, this IS (generally) the only way you add functionality without making developers rewrite their apps to take advantage of it, and it's more compatible. A hack, or AI algorithm, wouldn't have any advantage (any functionality can be added without AI), and would be incompatible with a lot of apps because assumptions must be made. It's hard for me to see your point of view. You basically say "show me an OS that impliments new functionality in apps without having apps be rewritten to take advantage of it. But it doesn't count if apps don't have to be rewritten to take advantage of it". The best way to do the above IS to impliment new functionality on the OS level! Examples: Multitasking, Virtual Memory, Outline fonts onscreen, alias's, etc. All the above are new features for System 7.0. All of them can be used NOW, without apps being rewritten. The more an OS does FOR apps, the more it can improve under the hood this way. This is the functional difference between OS's like MS-DOS and the Mac OS. MS-DOS does so little that any new functionality (nearly) that it adds cannot be used NOW. Are you an MS-DOS user, then?
jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) (06/27/91)
Quoted from <1991Jun26.122255.24634@wehi.dn.mu.oz> by baxter_a@wehi.dn.mu.oz: > It is used for ascii only. Name one graphics program that cuts to > clipboard. (I'd really like to know). Snapped from the docs for "snap"... $ h. Snap snaps graphics. $ i. Snap uses the clipboard, making it compatible with TxED (and NotePad). However, as has been said by others before, snapping graphics to a file and then loading that file as a brush or picture is a simple and straightforward operation, which can be done with all applications concerned loaded and running. What would be nice is a way to command Snap to save a picture through ARexx, which could then be loaded into a paint program also using ARexx. > Regards Alan -- *** John Bickers, TAP, NZAmigaUG. jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz *** *** "Endless variations, make it all seem new" - Devo. ***