rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (06/24/91)
In article <1991Jun23.203549.24627@wehi.dn.mu.oz> baxter_a@wehi.dn.mu.oz writes: [At the risk of starting an international flame war] >There has recently been a number of postings decrying the use of >foreign parts and the sale of foreign electronic goods in the USA. > >I'm a little surprised this is necessary, but I'll do it anyway... > >This is an international forum. Many of these comments have been >racist, bigotted and inflammatory. It is quite inappropriate to post >the sorts of nationalistic mindless drivel that we have been >innundated with. > >There are very good reasons _not_ to buy USA made goods. They are >often more expensive, poorer quality, less advanced, worse designed, >worse supported, and less well distributed. "Buy American" campaigns >just help to support badly functioning companies which cannot >compete in the open market. Most of this is pure bunk, except for "more expensive","less well distributed", and "worse supported". American products are not of inferior design, advancement or quality. There wouldn't be so much outcry if some markets were "really" open. Why isn't there American outcry against Germany? Because the difference between Germany and Japan is that American products can be sold in Germany, whereas Japan it's a different story. I'm surprised you even made this statement. I recently watched a show on PBS called "mini-dragons" that detailed the outcry against Japan in Austrailia for taking jobs away from workers. The showed footage of Austrailian workers protesting and throwing stones at a Japanese ship coming into port with consumer goods. They also showed Japanese rice farmers "destroying" a Chrysler because they didn't want foreign goods in the the Japanese market. The Japanese society still seems "closed" against outsiders. Examples were given in this show about how Filipino immigrants to Japan were not allowed in Japanese restaurants and stores because they didn't want foreigners in their country. A Japanese "hard copy" type show was shown in which the number one problem discussed was the 400,000 foreigners in Japan being a "problem". It seems the Japanese society thinks its sucess is built upon the idea of racial purity. We have racism in American too, but not of this scale, when 400,000 foreigners are considered a problem. I think American should give up on pentrating the Japanese market and concentrate on Europe like Commodore does. (if you want more proof, just read on up studies done on Japanese "dumping" in American to eliminate competition, or how Japanese corperations gang up on new American startup companies in Japan and push them out. [I recall one incident where an American car company was prevented from buying a factory for prodution in Japan]) We American's have our problems too, but it all isn't just whining. We are the largest debtor nation on Earth, and guess who our number one loaner is? >>Regards Alan -- / INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ | INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| \ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * /
taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) (06/24/91)
In article <1991Jun23.201535.22178@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > Most of this is pure bunk, except for "more expensive","less well >distributed", and "worse supported". American products are not of >inferior design, advancement or quality. There wouldn't be so much outcry >if some markets were "really" open. Why isn't there American outcry >against Germany? Because the difference between Germany and Japan is that >American products can be sold in Germany, whereas Japan it's a different >story. I'm surprised you even made this statement. I recently watched >a show on PBS called "mini-dragons" that detailed the outcry against >Japan in Austrailia for taking jobs away from workers. The showed footage >of Austrailian workers protesting and throwing stones at a Japanese >ship coming into port with consumer goods. They also showed Japanese >rice farmers "destroying" a Chrysler because they didn't want foreign >goods in the the Japanese market. The Japanese society still seems >"closed" against outsiders. Examples were given in this show about >how Filipino immigrants to Japan were not allowed in Japanese restaurants >and stores because they didn't want foreigners in their country. A >Japanese "hard copy" type show was shown in which the number one problem >discussed was the 400,000 foreigners in Japan being a "problem". It seems >the Japanese society thinks its sucess is built upon the idea of racial >purity. We have racism in American too, but not of this scale, when >400,000 foreigners are considered a problem. I think American should >give up on pentrating the Japanese market and concentrate on Europe like >Commodore does. This is not always true. Strong, determined companies can succeed in Japan. The latest issue of U.S. News and World Report has an article on one company in particular that has been enormously successful in competing with the Japanese on their own turf: Motorola. I suggest you read this article. It is very detailed, and is a very upbeat article about how determined companies can succeed in Japan. The article also goes on to give reasons why American companies fail to succeed in Japan, and many of them are basic reasons. For instance, some companies just keep a small fraction of their workforce in Japan, and wonder why they do not succeed there. (If you expect to succeed in Japan, you have to have a percentage of your workforce there equal to the percentage of your total sales that you expect to be from Japan). The article finally describes the rewards of going through the effort of doing business in Japan. Basically, it says that if you can succeed in Japan, the rest of the world is a cakewalk. > >>>Regards Alan > > >-- >/ INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ >| INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| >\ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * / ------------------------------------------------------------- / Marc Barrett -MB- | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / / ISU COM S Student | Internet: XGR39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU / ------------------------------------------------------------ \ The great thing about standards is that / \ there are so many of them to choose from. / -------------------------------------------------------
rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) (06/24/91)
baxter_a@wehi.dn.mu.oz writes: >There has recently been a number of postings decrying the use of >foreign parts and the sale of foreign electronic goods in the USA. If we loose the electronics market, we're done...Finished...BK will even close..We'll all be moving to Canada in droves to get jobs!! I have considered it myself... >I'm a little surprised this is necessary, but I'll do it anyway... > >This is an international forum. Many of these comments have been >racist, bigotted and inflammatory. It is quite inappropriate to post >the sorts of nationalistic mindless drivel that we have been >innundated with. Humm, and the Japanese not allowing US companies to sell US grown RICE in Japan doesn't come from mindless protectionist drivel? If anyone is racist, its the Japanese. The Japanese automakers have about 8 assembly plants in America, and employ 97% whites. Less than 3% blacks and hispanics. And in the United States blacks make up 13% of the population. Sounds racist to me...and Mazda must have all the blacks, because they are the only union plant and the only plant near urban America. It's just that you just don't know, you don't know that you don't know, and you don't want to know... >There are very good reasons _not_ to buy USA made goods. They are >often more expensive, poorer quality, less advanced, worse designed, >worse supported, and less well distributed. "Buy American" campaigns >just help to support badly functioning companies which cannot >compete in the open market. Well, lets see Japan open up thier markets to US rice, autos, and other products that they keep out. We'll see who wins in an open market. Chrysler next year will start up production of RIGHT HAND DRIVE Jeep's that will be built in Toledo, Ohio, with exporting to Japan in mind...We'll see what happens... Everyone throw out their GE LightBulbs, they are trash...they are worse designed, less advanced, and less distributed than Japanese lightbulbs. Time to trash US Robotics modems, the are poorer quality than Koren ones..Better stop buying Hayes...Stop buying Honda Civics, they are American Built...See how silly a blanket statements like that look? Interesting that you say US products aren't as good. My friend owns a research company that basically does quality studies and customer surveys and I remember the WORST BUILT AMERICAN FORD was the Mustang, built in Dearborn, Michigan. It scored miles ahead in quality than the Australian designed and built Mercury Capri, which is based on a Mazda 323 platform...The Ford Escort which was engineered in the US, and is built in Wayne, Michigan, is also based on a Mazda 232 platform. The Ford Escort scored very high in quality surveys, in comparison to the Mustang. If you take the same original platform and company X(Ford Australia) builds shit from it, and company Y(Ford North America) does a world class job with it, who's more advanced? (Ford owns 20% of Mazda, and trades platforms with them). I use Ford as an example, because they try to build plants, R&D centers, and headquarters in the countries that they do business in, and try to produce a majority of products they sell in a certain market in that market...(Plus I have alot of data here) Japanese companies dump products in America. Take the Toyota Previa, it sells in Japan for US$22,300. It gets unloaded in Long Beach, California, and the price now becomes US$15,200...Doesn't the boat ride cost anything??? It should be subject to 25% duty as well, since its a truck, but because Japanese spend $100 million a year lobbying the government, so it only pays the duty of that of a car(2.5%). How can a functioning company compete against this!??!?!?(Nonfunctioning companies would be out of business by then) Let me put it this way, if a Japanese company reverse engineered the Amiga 500, built it, and sold it in Japan for $1500, and then shipped it to the United States and sold it for $250, how would you feel then? Its just unfair...And they learned from MSX that the only way to crack the US computer market is to build what Americans are allready buying cheaper... When a company sells a product for less than it costs to make, or less than consumers in the home market pay for it, it is dumping, and very illegal... If the computer industry doesn't watch out, the same thing will happen to them, or it allready hasn't. All the low cost clones are now "Samsung", "Daewoo", "Goldstar". I do not know if they are dumped here though, I have no figures avaiable on computers...But it starts with low cost products, and then next you know they are taking on the most expensive of products where the real money is made(Apple Macintosh type computers). Hatachi has shown a great interest in keeping the Motorolla 68030 out of the US computer market... I would suspect a Japanese Macintosh clone shortly, since I was told by a guy from Apple they do alot of business there, and after checking out his claim, it is 100% correct. The Japanese grease more hands than Apple does, so I wouldn't expect anything to be done about it legally either...While they are trying to grab the whole Apple Macintosh market in the US, they will raise the price of RAM chips, video chips, etc, that Apple buys from Japanese companies, since most Japanese companies work together without the restrictions of anti-trust, and can do this. And when these prices go up, EVERYONE around the world will be hurt, because the only place you can get RAM from is from Japan now... -- C-UseNet V0.42e Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) No blood for oil! Raising C.A.F.E. to 40MPG is just that!
rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) (06/24/91)
taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: > This is not always true. Strong, determined companies can succeed in >Japan. The latest issue of U.S. News and World Report has an article on >one company in particular that has been enormously successful in competing >with the Japanese on their own turf: Motorola. I have read about Motorola, I own one of their more expensive pagers...But anyways, a pager is a totally different market than a computer or a car, which every $30,000 Japanese car sold in America sucks $100,000 in filterdown money out of the Midwest Economy. We can not take cars, trucks, or minivans to Japan without getting $10,000 in taxes added onto them. Ever wonder about the budget deficit in the United States? Well, every US built car sold in the US, Canada, Mexico, or Europe(Yes, Chrysler exports 50,000 cars a year to Europe and is the number one exporter now) will put $6000 in taxes into Uncle Sam. Every Japanese car brought in only generates $300 in taxes...What does that do to the Econony? Totally screws it up....I read that if right now, we closed the border to Japanese products, the government generate enough money in taxes that would totally wipe out the entire deficit in a few years because of new construction, new investment, etc, to start building everything here again... They were talking about possiably $4 billion a month going into the econony thats not there now.. Toys 'R' US fought for 28 years to get a store set up in Japan. Now come on, thats totally outragous...The distribution network in Japan works on, ah, a very tight knit group of people who allow or deny products being sold. They want to export everything, and take in token amounts of products, just enough to say, "We do not keep people out of this marketplace" -- C-UseNet V0.42e Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) No blood for oil! Raising C.A.F.E. to 40MPG is just that!
jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) (06/24/91)
Quoted from <1991Jun23.201535.22178@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> by rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell): > inferior design, advancement or quality. There wouldn't be so much outcry > if some markets were "really" open. Why isn't there American outcry From out here, the market looks very closed - pro the US and against Japan. A while back the Japanese were supposed to be "dumping" cheap RAM in the US - until the US put trade restrictions in place. But here, fairly close to Japan, if one wants to buy RAM the cheapest place to get it from appears to be through the US. Wierd. > / INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ -- *** John Bickers, TAP, NZAmigaUG. jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz *** *** "Endless variations, make it all seem new" - Devo. ***
peter@Sugar.NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) (06/24/91)
In article <rkushner.1725@sycom.UUCP> rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) writes: > Interesting that you say US products aren't as good. My friend owns a research > company that basically does quality studies and customer surveys and I > remember the WORST BUILT AMERICAN FORD was the Mustang, built in Dearborn, > Michigan. It scored miles ahead in quality than the Australian designed and > built Mercury Capri, which is based on a Mazda 323 platform... You think you have union problems in the states, try Australia some time. The unions basically run the country. The total population is 14 million, with an economy about the size of Houston's (pop 3 million). Bragging that US built cars are better than Australian built ones is like bragging that the Amiga is better then the Atari. Why don't you try comparisons with European Fords? -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>. 'U` "Have you hugged your wolf today?"
rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) (06/24/91)
jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) writes: >Quoted from <1991Jun23.201535.22178@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> by rjc@geech.gnu.ai.m > >> inferior design, advancement or quality. There wouldn't be so much outcry >> if some markets were "really" open. Why isn't there American outcry > > From out here, the market looks very closed - pro the US and against > Japan. A while back the Japanese were supposed to be "dumping" cheap > RAM in the US - until the US put trade restrictions in place. > > But here, fairly close to Japan, if one wants to buy RAM the > cheapest place to get it from appears to be through the US. > > Wierd. IT IS CHEAPER to buy it from the US after it was dumped there... Thing is, I hear that EVERYTHING is Japan is priced about 250% than it would be in the United States. So if they did have an open market, they (The giant Japanese corperate culture) will have to compete with products that could cost 250% less than theirs....They can't have that.... I talked to a guy from Japan that was working here for the Auto industry( I did heating and cooling when the market was good so I met alot of people from alot of places), he still said he plans on staying here because the cost of living is so much less than back home...Where he couldn't afford a house.. -- C-UseNet V0.42e Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) No blood for oil! Raising C.A.F.E. to 40MPG is just that!
rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) (06/25/91)
peter@Sugar.NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >In article <rkushner.1725@sycom.UUCP> rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) wri >> Interesting that you say US products aren't as good. My friend owns a resear >> company that basically does quality studies and customer surveys and I >> remember the WORST BUILT AMERICAN FORD was the Mustang, built in Dearborn, >> Michigan. It scored miles ahead in quality than the Australian designed and >> built Mercury Capri, which is based on a Mazda 323 platform... > >You think you have union problems in the states, try Australia some time. The >unions basically run the country. The total population is 14 million, with an >economy about the size of Houston's (pop 3 million). Well, I never visited Australia...Union city eh? As long as crime isn't involved with the union, there is wrong with unions, they are the lesser of two evils sometimes...Apple might become unionized from the way the paper is talking...(I basically only see UAW around here, so I don't really know much about the crooked ones, like Teamsters)..Detroit wouldn't exist in its current form if the UAW never existed..We have the 4th largest concentration of wealth in the United States according to a recent New York Stock Exchange survey. >Bragging that US built cars are better than Australian built ones is like >bragging that the Amiga is better then the Atari. But the Amiga IS better ;-) >Why don't you try comparisons with European Fords? Ford of Europe doesn't import cars to the United States for sale.... I hear they dropped the football on the new Escort for Europe though, sales are W-A-Y down...So since they don't bring cars it the US market for sale, I can't find any information on them(Ford Australia brings cars here, so I have the stats). I took the worst built, lowest quality Ford, and compaired to what they are bringing in. An unfounded statement was made that American products are always worse than products not made in America...A blanket statement like this gets blow away when I compair Aus Vs US...So someone shouldn't throw stones... Europe is the toughest open market though, because they generally have very well informed customers...Europe has made Chrysler the largest American exporter($700++ million a year in sales of US built cars just in Europe)..It took Chrysler 11 years to get their quality up enough for people in Europe to even consider buying one...(BTW the sales in the US increased during most of these 11 years that they didn't sell cars/trucks in Europe...1981 they sold 1,283K and in 1989 they sold 2,382K They doubled sales, mostly in trucks though..) And its not just Chrysler USA that benifits from European sales, Chrysler Canada also has a chunk of the European sales...Now Chrysler is designing Jeeps just for Japan, England, and Australia, lets see what happens when the tables are turned...I hear they have a partnership with Honda to distribute Jeeps in Japan, so they will be the first low priced vehicles to be distributed in Japan... Does Commodore have a Japanese version of AmigaDOS??? If not, why not?! I bet a $500 computer would sell VERY WELL in Japan...They are NTSC, they can use the Toaster!!! We will show them what garbage MSX is! Is MSX still popular in Japan? Apple is hitting the Japanese in DETROIT with the Japanese Macintosh Operating System!! Hoping that when these people return to Japan they will want Mac's there....LETS GET WITH THE GAME! There are 1,400 Japanese owned factors in the United States and 200,000 Japanese working in the United States.... -- C-UseNet V0.42e Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) DETROIT - NO WIMPS!
rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) (06/25/91)
baxter_a@wehi.dn.mu.oz writes: >Head hunting, product dumping, corporate takeovers, asset stripping, under >selling, cornering, monopoly, circle agreements, controlling distribution >lines, buying out unions etc is _what laissez-faire business is all about_. >Sure its nasty, mean, rotten, cruel, heartless, and so on. But if I were The biggest lie is right there, we don't have hands off in this country. We have enviromental socialist going after corperate America, trying to destroy everything that built this country. If they really want to go after polluters, go after those evil Communists that destroyed Easter Europe's enviroment.. We have a mixed economy... If we had government that helped industry like the Japanese government does, you wouldn't be able to stop the United States.... We have alot of laws, such as anti-trust, enviromental issues, etc, that by definition make laissez-faire business impossiable...And its not nasty, mean, rotten, cruel, heartless, thats what the unions and the law are there for.. If it was a totally free market, I could build the most nasty, dirty, wasteful computer monitor for $50 that would radiate the people using it until they would glow in the dark...Sure I wouldn't get UL approval, and that would be reason enough alone for people not to buy it...But thats not the way it is... I don't want closed markets, I want open markets, and let the best win. No government involvement...No outragious tarrifs... -- C-UseNet V0.42e Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) I am from DETROIT, want to make something of it?
sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gun Control is a firm grip) (06/25/91)
In article <1991Jun24.102852.29436@Sugar.NeoSoft.com> peter@Sugar.NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >In article <rkushner.1725@sycom.UUCP> rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) writes: >> Interesting that you say US products aren't as good. My friend owns a research >> company that basically does quality studies and customer surveys and I >> remember the WORST BUILT AMERICAN FORD was the Mustang, built in Dearborn, >> Michigan. It scored miles ahead in quality than the Australian designed and >> built Mercury Capri, which is based on a Mazda 323 platform... > >You think you have union problems in the states, try Australia some time. The >unions basically run the country. The total population is 14 million, with an >economy about the size of Houston's (pop 3 million). > >Bragging that US built cars are better than Australian built ones is like >bragging that the Amiga is better then the Atari. Not when the Australian built car comes from the Mazda 323 platform <or is a varient of it> >Why don't you try comparisons with European Fords? Ah, the Merkur cars. Anyone ever hear of the XR4Ti or Scorpio cars? Didnt sell well in the US at all, were very unreliable according to CU. >-- >Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>. > 'U` "Have you hugged your wolf today?" PiRho- Because its Co-Ed! Macintoshes should be accelerated at 32ft/sec^2 "You aint doing nothing positive, what do you have to say about yourself" "You dont like how I'm living well Fuck you!"
sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gun Control is a firm grip) (06/25/91)
In article <rkushner.1983@sycom.UUCP> rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) writes: >jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) writes: >>Quoted from <1991Jun23.201535.22178@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> by rjc@geech.gnu.ai.m >> >IT IS CHEAPER to buy it from the US after it was dumped there... > >Thing is, I hear that EVERYTHING is Japan is priced about 250% than it would >be in the United States. So if they did have an open market, they (The giant >Japanese corperate culture) will have to compete with products that could cost >250% less than theirs....They can't have that.... i would believe this. My sister is in the navy and went to Japan, "PI" <the phillipenes (sp?) islands> among other ports in eastern asia during Westpack. Anyway she found a JVC reciever in Japan for ~$280 US. In the PI it was $220. I suppose here in NYC I could find it anywhere between $200-$350, depending on where I looked and when. Someone commented about the previa costing $7000 more in Japan than in the US. Isnt this dumping, which is illegal??? >I talked to a guy from Japan that was working here for the Auto industry( I >did heating and cooling when the market was good so I met alot of people >from alot of places), he still said he plans on staying here because the cost >of living is so much less than back home...Where he couldn't afford a house.. > >-- C-UseNet V0.42e > Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 > P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis > Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support > UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) > No blood for oil! Raising C.A.F.E. to 40MPG is just that! PiRho- Because its Co-Ed! Macintoshes should be accelerated at 32ft/sec^2 "You aint doing nothing positive, what do you have to say about yourself" "You dont like how I'm living well Fuck you!"
peter@Sugar.NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) (06/25/91)
In article <1991Jun24.212249.24629@wehi.dn.mu.oz> baxter_a@wehi.dn.mu.oz writes: > You can choose: Socialism or free enterprise. But if you choose free > enterprise, don't come screaming when it's you that's hurting. Monopoly capitalism is *not* free enterprise. Hey, I chose the US over Australia. And every time I go back and see how Whitlam's legacy continues to erode the life I remember I'm newly grateful. Because while monopoly capitalism sucks, it's better than what Australia has. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>. 'U` "Have you hugged your wolf today?"
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (06/25/91)
In article <1991Jun24.233508.449@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gun Control is a firm grip) writes: > >Someone commented about the previa costing $7000 more in Japan than in the US. >Isnt this dumping, which is illegal??? > Dumping generally refers to when a company is selling in large quantities at a price that loses them money. NeXT being an example. 8-) -- Ethan FF buckets of bits on the bus, FF buckets of bits. Take one down, Pass it to ground, FE buckets of bits on the bus.
peter@Sugar.NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) (06/25/91)
In article <rkushner.2013@sycom.UUCP> rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) writes: > >Why don't you try comparisons with European Fords? > Ford of Europe doesn't import cars to the United States for sale... Sure they do, under the "Merkur" label. > I took the worst built, lowest quality Ford, The 'stang? You're misinformed. I'd take a Mustang over a Taurus, LTD, Tempo, or the old Escort any day. The Mustang has more bang for the buck than any other car you can buy in the states. What did you get your figures from? Consumer Reports? They're pretty good if you watch their bias (foreign cars, bland products, entry level stuff)... but you gotta keep it in mind. For that matter, the two best Fords for their price (Escort, Festiva) are Mazdas. Can't argue with your Commodore-Japan strategy, though. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>. 'U` "Have you hugged your wolf today?"
ftoomey@maths.tcd.ie (Fergal Toomey) (06/25/91)
In article <rkushner.2045@sycom.UUCP> rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) writes: >The biggest lie is right there, we don't have hands off in this country. We >have enviromental socialist going after corperate America, trying to destroy >everything that built this country. If they really want to go after polluters, >go after those evil Communists that destroyed Easter Europe's enviroment.. We You're a real funny guy, Ronald. Let me know when your kid is born with two heads...
baxter_a@wehi.dn.mu.oz (06/25/91)
In article <rkushner.2013@sycom.UUCP>, rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) writes: > Ford of Europe doesn't import cars to the United States for sale.... I hear > they dropped the football on the new Escort for Europe though, sales are W-A-Y > down...So since they don't bring cars it the US market for sale, I can't find > any information on them(Ford Australia brings cars here, so I have the stats). > I took the worst built, lowest quality Ford, and compaired to what they are > bringing in. An unfounded statement was made that American products are always ^^^^^ > worse than products not made in America...A blanket statement like this gets ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > blow away when I compair Aus Vs US...So someone shouldn't throw stones... Wow! All the discussion style of -MB-. The statement was not "always". It was "often". It was not a blanket statement, it was a qualified statement. And as we have already discussed, I am not the sort to be involved in a stoning. > > Europe is the toughest open market though, because they generally have very > well informed customers...Europe has made Chrysler the largest American > exporter($700++ million a year in sales of US built cars just in Europe)..It > took Chrysler 11 years to get their quality up enough for people in Europe to > even consider buying one...(BTW the sales in the US increased during most of > these 11 years that they didn't sell cars/trucks in Europe...1981 they sold > 1,283K and in 1989 they sold 2,382K They doubled sales, mostly in trucks > though..) And its not just Chrysler USA that benifits from European sales, > Chrysler Canada also has a chunk of the European sales...Now Chrysler is > designing Jeeps just for Japan, England, and Australia, lets see what > happens when the tables are turned...I hear they have a partnership with Honda > to distribute Jeeps in Japan, so they will be the first low priced vehicles to > be distributed in Japan... Those "well informed customers" is what the rest of the world is made of. Crysler has a poor reputation here, where Japanese and European cars dominate. American cars have the reputation of only lasting a few years, while most people buy a car to last 10+ years. I have no real knowledge of how long US cars would really last here, because I don't know anyone who owns one. > Does Commodore have a Japanese version of AmigaDOS??? If not, why not?! I bet .... (some silly stuff deleted) > > -- C-UseNet V0.42e > Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 > P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis > Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support > UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) > DETROIT - NO WIMPS! Regards Alan
peter@Sugar.NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) (06/26/91)
In article <1991Jun24.233106.5282@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gun Control is a firm grip) writes: > >Bragging that US built cars are better than Australian built ones is like > >bragging that the Amiga is better then the Atari. > Not when the Australian built car comes from the Mazda 323 platform <or is a > varient of it> The Amiga and Atari are both 68000-based, and are really not that far apart hardware-wise. Not surprising, given the Atari was a hurry-up job to kill the Amiga. Of course, the Mercury Capri you're talking about was a hurry-up job to take on the (also 323-based: uses the 323 GT engine) Mazda Miata. Pretty damn close, mon. > Ah, the Merkur cars. Anyone ever hear of the XR4Ti or Scorpio cars? My boss has a Scorpio. Damned nice car. > Didnt sell well in the US at all, were very unreliable according to CU. CU's ratings are heavily weighted towards bottom-of-the-line cars. I'll accept their ratings on $10000 sedans, but not $20000 ones. Just as I'll pay attention to what they say about TVs but not computers. Like everyone, they have their areas of competance. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>. 'U` "Have you hugged your wolf today?"
rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) (06/26/91)
baxter_a@wehi.dn.mu.oz writes: >> Does Commodore have a Japanese version of AmigaDOS??? If not, why not?! I be >.... > (some silly stuff deleted) You call an Japanese version of AmigaDOS silly!? 200,000 people from Japan working in the US with computer systems that are very un-friendly to them!?!??!! The NEC systems here don't run the Japanese software...Apple if left unchallanged will make a killing! You just don't know, don't know that you don't know, and don't want to know.. And don't put that "I don't care" thing again, thats the words of the incurably ignorant...Maybe Plato was right about the masses... -- C-UseNet V0.42e Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) If I had a nickel for every time Elizabeth Taylor was married I would have $.35
rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) (06/26/91)
peter@Sugar.NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >> Ah, the Merkur cars. Anyone ever hear of the XR4Ti or Scorpio cars? > >My boss has a Scorpio. Damned nice car. The killing of the XR4Ti's and Scorpio's was due to: 1) Bad marketing on Fords part 2) They did have a reputation for being unreliable cars in the price range they were being sold in. >> Didnt sell well in the US at all, were very unreliable according to CU. > >CU's ratings are heavily weighted towards bottom-of-the-line cars. Consumers Reports HATES ALL cars, and I wouldn't look at anything they published...One of the big-wigs at CU's car program was fired from Chrysler for being a "screw-off"...And knowing how many Screw-Off's Chrysler still has working for them, he must have been the screw-off of all screw-offs to get fired...I would believe what CU prints about VCR's, Toasters, Televisions, etc, but not cars... I would pick up a car magazine for a more objective view, or ConsumerGuide's auto series... -- C-UseNet V0.42e Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) If I had a nickel for every time Elizabeth Taylor was married I would have $.35
sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gun Control is a firm grip) (06/26/91)
In article <1991Jun25.014153.3827@Sugar.NeoSoft.com> peter@Sugar.NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >In article <rkushner.2013@sycom.UUCP> rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) writes: >> >Why don't you try comparisons with European Fords? > >> Ford of Europe doesn't import cars to the United States for sale... > >Sure they do, under the "Merkur" label. ^^ DID!!! >> I took the worst built, lowest quality Ford, > >The 'stang? You're misinformed. I'd take a Mustang over a Taurus, LTD, Tempo, >or the old Escort any day. The Mustang has more bang for the buck than any >other car you can buy in the states. What did you get your figures from? 1> when the car runs that is 2> Im sure thats real debatable esp from people who own Irocs or TA's, etc. Heard of the Taurus SHO? >Consumer Reports? They're pretty good if you watch their bias (foreign cars, I used to believe in them until their `report' on low cost computers which totally left out the amiga 500. They replied that they had covered the amiga before <but that was in 1986 when WB was <<1.2. As for cars, well, take a look at their repair records thingies. Look at the Hondas, Toyotas. Then glipse over at the Chevys, Plymouths and Fords. Which ones have more of those black circles??? >bland products, entry level stuff)... but you gotta keep it in mind. > >For that matter, the two best Fords for their price (Escort, Festiva) are >Mazdas. > >Can't argue with your Commodore-Japan strategy, though. >-- >Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>. > 'U` "Have you hugged your wolf today?" Their omission of the Amiga really knawed at me and made me lose all respect for CU as a magazine <as far as recommending computers anyway.> sigh. PiRho- Because its Co-Ed! Macintoshes should be accelerated at 32ft/sec^2 "You aint doing nothing positive, what do you have to say about yourself" "You dont like how I'm living well Fuck you!"
sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gun Control is a firm grip) (06/26/91)
In article <rkushner.2659@sycom.UUCP> rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) writes: >>> Didnt sell well in the US at all, were very unreliable according to CU. >> >>CU's ratings are heavily weighted towards bottom-of-the-line cars. > >Consumers Reports HATES ALL cars, and I wouldn't look at anything they >published...One of the big-wigs at CU's car program was fired from Chrysler >for being a "screw-off"...And knowing how many Screw-Off's Chrysler still has >working for them, he must have been the screw-off of all screw-offs to get >fired...I would believe what CU prints about VCR's, Toasters, Televisions, >etc, but not cars... > >I would pick up a car magazine for a more objective view, or ConsumerGuide's >auto series... Objective? Car & driver? Road & Track? in their top 10 cars, you will almost always see 5 hondas picked over toyota cars that are as good if not better. COnsidering they accept advertising from all the auto companies, I'd be wary of most advice about cars they provide. Incidentally so far as I could tell from my limited experience, people* who bought cars recommended by CU had far fewer problems than friends who bought cars they didnt recommend. *- people = friends or family. >-- C-UseNet V0.42e > Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 > P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis > Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support > UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) > If I had a nickel for every time Elizabeth Taylor was married > I would have $.35 PiRho- Because its Co-Ed! Macintoshes should be accelerated at 32ft/sec^2 "You aint doing nothing positive, what do you have to say about yourself" "You dont like how I'm living well Fuck you!"
rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) (06/26/91)
sss10@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gun Control is a firm grip) writes: >In article <rkushner.2659@sycom.UUCP> rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) wri > >>>> Didnt sell well in the US at all, were very unreliable according to CU. >>> >>>CU's ratings are heavily weighted towards bottom-of-the-line cars. >> >>Consumers Reports HATES ALL cars, and I wouldn't look at anything they >>published...One of the big-wigs at CU's car program was fired from Chrysler >>for being a "screw-off"...And knowing how many Screw-Off's Chrysler still has >>working for them, he must have been the screw-off of all screw-offs to get >>fired...I would believe what CU prints about VCR's, Toasters, Televisions, >>etc, but not cars... >> >>I would pick up a car magazine for a more objective view, or ConsumerGuide's >>auto series... > >Objective? Car & driver? Road & Track? in their top 10 cars, you will almost >always see 5 hondas picked over toyota cars that are as good if not better. >COnsidering they accept advertising from all the auto companies, I'd be wary o >most advice about cars they provide. Well, true, they do take advertising, but how about Popular Science? Or ConsumersGuide like I suggested...Plus in Road & Track, you will see $30,000++ cars in the top 10....Its kinda dumb, seeing how many more $10,000 Chevys are sold over the $30,000 300ZPX's... >Incidentally so far as I could tell from my limited experience, people* who >bought cars recommended by CU had far fewer problems than friends who bought >cars they didnt recommend. What about when they flip/flop? Like I have an 1990 Dodge Dyantsy and it was recommended as a "best buy." It was allmost unchanged for 1991 and then they said to avoid it like the plague...Still haven't had any problems with it, actually its the first car I ever had that *I NEVER* found anything wrong with it where it had to go back to the dealer. They had a recall for a by-pass valve on the four speed transmission, but thats it... They seemed to keep saying the transmissions had a 14% failure rate according to 1989 data, but using 1989 data on a 1991 car seems very silly...Just like compairing a WorkBench 1.0 (where when you dragged an ICON you got a giant red X representing the icon on the screen and it crashed every 3 hours) to Mac System 7..Plus when Consumers Reports asks users to report problems with their cars, owners of American built cars are older and seem to nitpick much more than the younger people who buy Japanese cars, so they get more black spots... Whats funny, is that my friend did a study on the Diamond Star cars, and the people who bought the Mitsubishi Eclipse rated the car *MUCH* higher than the people who bought the Eagle Talon and Plymouth Laser...Same damn cars, same powertrain options, etc...You could compair any model down the page, and the ones sold as American cars "sucked" and the ones sold as Japanese cars were "excellent." And the Eagle Talon was one of the 10 best cars for R&T.. What a minute, thats not funny, its sad!! People are mindless brainwashed zombies!! -- C-UseNet V0.42e Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) It works better if you plug it in.
area88 (Erick Tadefa) (06/26/91)
The Scorpio & Merkur were canned mostly due to their outlandish price in comparison to the rest of their line. The reliability was fine. Most car enthusiast mags panned it for the lack of HP (they wanted a V6, whine whine whine). They never really advertised it all that much either. I guess Ford of Germany and Ford USA don't look eye to eye on many things.
area88 (Erick Tadefa) (06/26/91)
From what I understand price wars go on in Japan so no car company makes money there. Most of their profits come from exported cars. Everything in Japan costs more for some unknown reason. Perhaps the government knows that the Japanese people have lots of spendable cash on their hands, either that or inflation is running amuck for them.
mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) (06/27/91)
In article <1991Jun25.133105.24631@wehi.dn.mu.oz> baxter_a@wehi.dn.mu.oz writes: >In article <rkushner.2013@sycom.UUCP>, rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) writes: >> Does Commodore have a Japanese version of AmigaDOS??? If not, why not?! I bet >.... > (some silly stuff deleted) > The Amiga would be a tremendous success in Japan if it did do Japanese. There is NO doubt about this. There is, in fact, a kanjii word processor for the Amiga written by a Japanese programmer... -- **************************************************** * I want games that look like Shadow of the Beast * * but play like Leisure Suit Larry. * ****************************************************
rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) (06/28/91)
baxter_a@wehi.dn.mu.oz writes: >In article <rkushner.2611@sycom.UUCP>, rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) wr >> baxter_a@wehi.dn.mu.oz writes: >>>> Does Commodore have a Japanese version of AmigaDOS??? If not, why not?! I >>>.... >>> (some silly stuff deleted) >> >> You call an Japanese version of AmigaDOS silly!? 200,000 people from Japan >> working in the US with computer systems that are very un-friendly to >> them!?!??!! The NEC systems here don't run the Japanese software...Apple if >> left unchallanged will make a killing! > >Yes. I do. There is a great deal more involved aiming a product at a market >than getting the language right. The Amiga attempting to compete in Japan >against Japanese companies would have troubles because: > >Limited keyboard size. >Limited resolution. >No (Japanese) software. >Transport costs. >The effectiveness of Japanese "Buy home made goods" programs. Apple Computer is catering to the needs of 250 Japanese firms in the Detroit area. Apple uses something called KanjiTalk, which uses word phonetics to build characters from the sounds of the word types in. The user points to the character on the screen that is the correct one.... According to the Detroit Free Press, "Apple will tap a very rich market" because there are 1,400 Japanese onwed factories in the United States and 200,000 Japanese workers. Eiji Kato, a quality control manager for A.W. Transmission Engineering in Plymouth, MI, says his Japanese NEC computer won't work with the NEC equipment he can buy in the United States. But the Mac software will work on any Mac worldwide... The limited keyboard size really doesn't matter, from what I understand, they have around 50 phonics that can build up to 300 characters.... Who cares about selling in Japan, just sell them in the United States!!! Sell them in Canada! Commodore should hire a few Japanese people, they love to keep busy, and something like this would definatly do that.... 100,000 more sales would be 100,000 more sales..Plus future impressions you leave on the users... It goes on to say in the article that anyone who gets Japanese to use thier computers in the United States has a very good chance of selling equipment to their friends when they return to Japan.... -- C-UseNet V0.42f Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes, keep this is mind.
yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp (Brian Yamanaka) (06/28/91)
In article <1991Jun27.200801.24637@wehi.dn.mu.oz> baxter_a@wehi.dn.mu.oz writes: >In article <rkushner.2611@sycom.UUCP>, rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) writes: >> baxter_a@wehi.dn.mu.oz writes: >>>> Does Commodore have a Japanese version of AmigaDOS??? If not, why not?! I be >>>.... >>> (some silly stuff deleted) >> >> You call an Japanese version of AmigaDOS silly!? 200,000 people from Japan >> working in the US with computer systems that are very un-friendly to >> them!?!??!! The NEC systems here don't run the Japanese software...Apple if >> left unchallanged will make a killing! > >Yes. I do. There is a great deal more involved aiming a product at a market >than getting the language right. The Amiga attempting to compete in Japan >against Japanese companies would have troubles because: > >Limited keyboard size. >Limited resolution. >No (Japanese) software. >Transport costs. >The effectiveness of Japanese "Buy home made goods" programs. I have been avoiding jumping into this topic line for many reasons, (1) although American I am of Japanese lineage, (2) I work in Japan for (3) a large international firm based in Japan. Tho' I think I can finally say something without getting attacked on all sides. There just is too many assumptions made by many about Japanese. While I don't know if it's worth trying to market the Amiga in Japan, I think that making a Japanese OS is not so bad an idea if done correctly. I think few people have had a chance to use "Kanjitalk" on the Mac. First of all it uses a standard keyboard, as do all new Japanese word processors. The trick is that you type the romanized version and the system translates it into the Japanese character. If it can resolve the character it makes a good guess and allows the user to easily select froma list of matches. On the Mac it is a simple front end that reads the input stream before sending it to the application. Of course the character set is based on a 14-bit character set that is created using escape sequences. This is pretty established as witnessed by the Japanese version of internet where things are all done in Japanese. It has been my experience that the popularity of the Mac in Japan is due to its ease of use and willingness to make a Japanese OS. On the Mac this is fairly easy since all you do is use somthing like resedit and edit the menu and requester resources. I do the reverse in some cases and change the Japanese apps menus to English. Resolution is not really a problem as witnessed by how the NEC PC9800 can handle Japanese characters. This thing is a mutation of an old PC XT, not PC compatible in native mode, and can make decent representations. The Mac display is more acceptable, but the Amiga could easily match this in Hi-res interlace. In fact I have seen one Japanese word processor for the Amiga, but it was not very impressive. Software would be the biggest problem. I visit an Amiga dealer in Tokyo and all the software is in English. For games, the largest market in Japan, this is no problem. Tho' the prices are really steep, since there are no Amiga software disributors in Japan. I have to disagree with the "Buy home made goods" statement. The popularity of the Mac attests to this. Most applications we use in the office come from America. Claris, Farallon, Macromind, all big Mac software vendors sell lots of their products here. Believe most Japanese software is not very good, except for the games. The Japanese just buy what they believe to be better. I don't want to start a flame war so I'll stop at that statement. >Regards Alan Of course anything I have said is my own opinion and do not reflect in any way those of my employer. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Brian YAMANAKA (aka The VISCA dude) |"I knew I should have made that Sony Corporation, Personal Video Group | left turn at Albuquerque." Email: yamanaka@cv.sony.co.jp | -Bugs Bunny Phone: +81-3-5488-6160 | FAX: +81-3-5488-6469 |Hawaii,Illinois,Japan...what's next?
robart@agora.rain.com (Robert Barton) (06/28/91)
In article <1991Jun26.064611.1396@att!mwood!attcc!area88> erick@att!mwood!attcc!area88 (Erick Tadefa) writes: >From what I understand price wars go on in Japan so no car company makes money there. Most of their profits come from exported cars. Everything in Japan costs more for some unknown reason. Perhaps the government knows that the Japanese people have lots of spendable cash on their hands, either that or inflation is running amuck for them. Please take this to rec.auto.
baxter_a@wehi.dn.mu.oz (06/28/91)
In article <mykes.3830@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG>, mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes: > In article <1991Jun25.133105.24631@wehi.dn.mu.oz> baxter_a@wehi.dn.mu.oz writes: >>In article <rkushner.2013@sycom.UUCP>, rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) writes: > >>> Does Commodore have a Japanese version of AmigaDOS??? If not, why not?! I bet >>.... >> (some silly stuff deleted) >> > > The Amiga would be a tremendous success in Japan if it did do Japanese. There is > NO doubt about this. There is, in fact, a kanjii word processor for the Amiga > written by a Japanese programmer... I retract all statements referring to the Amiga in the Japanese market place. They were based on a visit 18 months ago when there were 300 Amigas in Japan, a single users group of 30 people, and no Japanese software. Clearly things have changed if they have got a word processor. Anyone be able to show it to me or let me know where I could get it? Regards Alan
es1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (06/29/91)
In article <rkushner.3611@sycom.UUCP> rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) writes: >baxter_a@wehi.dn.mu.oz writes: >>In article <rkushner.2611@sycom.UUCP>, rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) wr >>> baxter_a@wehi.dn.mu.oz writes: >>>>> Does Commodore have a Japanese version of AmigaDOS??? If not, why not?! I >>>>.... >>>> (some silly stuff deleted) >>> >>> You call an Japanese version of AmigaDOS silly!? 200,000 people from Japan >>> working in the US with computer systems that are very un-friendly to >>> them!?!??!! The NEC systems here don't run the Japanese software...Apple if >>> left unchallanged will make a killing! >> >>Yes. I do. There is a great deal more involved aiming a product at a market >>than getting the language right. The Amiga attempting to compete in Japan >>against Japanese companies would have troubles because: >> >Apple Computer is catering to the needs of 250 Japanese firms in the Detroit >area. Apple uses something called KanjiTalk, which uses word phonetics to >build characters from the sounds of the word types in. The user points to the >character on the screen that is the correct one.... > Wouldn't it be possible to incorporate Kanji via a Kanji font and a Commodity which would trap incoming keystrokes and process them? -- Ethan FF buckets of bits on the bus, FF buckets of bits. Take one down, Short it to ground, FE buckets of bits on the bus.