lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) (06/24/91)
Every day, in every way, I see myself agreeing more and more with Marc Barret on more and more things. Not so much the technical aspects of the machines as much as the simple fact that Commodore keeps screwing up. This bothers me because I really can't stand Marc that much and yet I keep nodding my head when I read his posts. I don't know if he has a clue as to what needs to be done to fix things, but he's right on the money when he says CBM is screwing up. My boyfriend runs a Paragon BBS off and on when he's got the extra $$$ to do so. He writes a door program called Castle Dungeon for it that is popular on a lot of Paragon/StarNet, TransAmiga, and XenoLink BBS systems. This puts him in contact with a lot of other BBS sysops. One of the ones he's become good friends with runs ClickMeTwice BBS, a 6 line system dedicated to serving the Amiga, which also happens to be a computer dealer for the Amiga. Al, the owner of the store and BBS system, is going bankrupt selling Amigas. He has recently been posting some of the reasons why in the Amiga FidoNet Echomail areas. Some of you may have already seen them. He is not alone. We have heard from other dealers around the country who have had multiple problems with Commodore resulting in their not being able to maintain a profit and thus closing their doors. To me, this says that something just isn't right down at the blue and red. Al cited the fact that at the dealer's conference that was held when Copperman first arrived more advertising, a virtual blitz they were told, was about to be launched. TV, Print, Radio. The works. Everyone was excited and went home to wait and watch. Alas, there were many market areas virtually untouched by this "Blitz". Al's area, and even here in the Metro Detroit area, saw little, if any, of the ads and then they were usually on around 1 or 2 A.M. when most of the world was asleep. Al called Commodore and voiced his complaints and was only told "Come up with $10,000 and we'll co-op one with you for your area." What? If Al had $10,000 he wouldn't NEED the advertising that was PROMISED, he'd be making a profit on a machine that would have to be selling. He isn't though and as such he will be closing down. He's fully expecting Commodore to pull his dealership status for having the gall to speak out about his problems, and with the way Commodore has been the last few years, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they did. My SO has been a Loyal Commodore user since the days of the Pet computers and has owned several different Commodore machines. Pet, Vic20, C-64 (several of these), C-128, and Amiga 1000 and 2000. I converted from Apple with the arrivial of the Amiga. All in all we have little complaints with the machine itself, even if it is getting dated compared to the rest. Our complaints are with the relative in-activity at Commodore with selling machines. Sure they're doing great overseas, but I don't live in Europe so that does me no good. There were even rumors for awhile that Commodore was thinking about shutting down US sales seeing as they couldn't do well here. Couldn't do well? They haven't done anything to promote good sales here. Makes you wish you could sit down with the CBM big-wigs and say "Hi! I'm Jane/Joe User." (SLAP! SLAP! SLAP! SLAP!) "WAKE UP YOU IDIOTS!" I once had big hopes for Commodore and the Amiga, but both seemed doomed to stay a second class company with a second class machine. When the rumors of the Hewlett Packard buy-out were floating around I PRAYED it would happen! Whatever HP did with the Amiga, it would STILL have been more than what CBM was doing. Same thing with the recent Sony rumors. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE will someone with some advertising BRAINS and interest in advanced R&D PLEASE BUY OUT COMMODORE and get this thing MOVING in SOME sort of direction!?!? Enough of my ramblings. I've given up hope on CBM and the Amiga. I will continue to use my machine happily until Commodore inevitably dies off and then I will probably buy a Macintosh. Sure it's more expensive, but there won't be a CBM around to offer anything better so why sweat it. It's been fun Commodore, wish you would have done a better job. Laurana -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ |Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose | | | on the world...and you thought things| |lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. |
rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) (06/24/91)
lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: >To me, this says that something just isn't right down at the blue and >red. Al cited the fact that at the dealer's conference that was held >when Copperman first arrived more advertising, a virtual blitz they >were told, was about to be launched. TV, Print, Radio. The works. >Everyone was excited and went home to wait and watch. Alas, there were >many market areas virtually untouched by this "Blitz". Al's area, and >even here in the Metro Detroit area, saw little, if any, of the ads >and then they were usually on around 1 or 2 A.M. when most of the >world was asleep. HA! Bullshit! If I had every dollar that Commodore spent advertising in Detroit on WXYZ, WKBD, and Preview Guide in 1989, I would guarantee you that I probably would have quarter of a million dollars by now....They ran ads every day for TWO months on Detroit's top rated, top dollar news(5PM-7PM Action News, WXYZ). They ran ads on FOX television(WKBD TV50, Detroit) during the Simpsons, they ran ads in the Detroit Free Press in the business sections (third page, with ALL dealers listed that mattered), and they also advertised on Preview Guide quite a bit....At least 3 times a day... Don't twist things because someone else (Les and Al) is. I'll bet Archie at MicroWorld would tear Commodore down and burn them as well, because he never paid for parts for the longest time and Commodore doesn't keep dealers that don't pay the bills.... You have to be OBJECTIVE when you want to consider if the Amiga is good or not. You can not have birdies telling you things and give them MORE crediblity than the facts...If you don't like the Amiga and really believe its going down the tubs, TAKE DOWN THE BBS, SELL THE EQUIPMENT, and get it behind you before its worthless...Get yourself a 586sx with your $100 VGA board and be happy..But someone that gripes all the time is never happy..I know, I WAS IN THE SERVICE BUSINESS for awhile.... -- C-UseNet V0.42e Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) No blood for oil! Raising C.A.F.E. to 40MPG is just that!
es1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (06/24/91)
In article <7471@vela.acs.oakland.edu> lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: > >Every day, in every way, I see myself agreeing more and more with Marc >Barret on more and more things. Not so much the technical aspects of >the machines as much as the simple fact that Commodore keeps screwing >up. This bothers me because I really can't stand Marc that much and >yet I keep nodding my head when I read his posts. I don't know if he >has a clue as to what needs to be done to fix things, but he's right >on the money when he says CBM is screwing up. > "screwing up" is the wrong phrase. Most of Marc's complaints (at least the valid ones) are a LACK of action. It isn't that what they are doing is wrong, but that they aren't doing all the things we feel they should. As to the dealer, you quote no Commodore policy that caused him problems except the idea of co-oping advertising costs. Inform your DEALER that he should wake up. You don't simply say to a computer company "HI! I wan't to sell your computer" and expect to have them pay all your costs. There is investment required. Commodore's policy is we'll help you advertise. If your dealer can't afford $1,000 to advertise, then he is in DEEP trouble and there is little Commodore can do. But, to the subject of Commodore spending on marketing in the U.S.: Please tell me, whence the money? They don't have any. Commodore's profits for July 1, 1989 through June 30, 1990 were five million dollars. This year it looks like they will make about $40-50 million or so, back to their standard before last year. That's on sales of appr. one billion dollars. They simply don't have the money. There are STOCKHOLDERS who do kinda demand that profit. I'm not defending every action at CBM, but realism needs to creep into these discussions. It isn't that Commodore doesn't have any ideas of how to spend money, they simply don't have money. -- Ethan "...Know-Nothing-Bozo the Non-Wonder Dog, an animal so stupid that it had been sacked from one of Will's own commercials for being incapable of knowing which dog food it was supposed to prefer, despite the fact that the meat in all the other bowls had engine oil poured all over it."
taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) (06/24/91)
In article <1991Jun24.003834.4258@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu>, es1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > But, to the subject of Commodore spending on marketing in >the U.S.: Please tell me, whence the money? They don't have any. >Commodore's profits for July 1, 1989 through June 30, 1990 were >five million dollars. This year it looks like they will make >about $40-50 million or so, back to their standard before last >year. That's on sales of appr. one billion dollars. They simply >don't have the money. There are STOCKHOLDERS who do kinda demand >that profit. > I'm not defending every action at CBM, but realism needs >to creep into these discussions. It isn't that Commodore doesn't >have any ideas of how to spend money, they simply don't have >money. OK, we'll assume (wrongly) for a minute that Commodore is perpetually close to bankruptcy and that they have no money to spend on advertizing. I don't have the exact figures handy, but during the 1990 fiscal year Commodore posted a modest profit. During the same year, Commodore had somewhere around $100 million in capital expenditures (marketing, R&D, and upkeep of the corporate infrastructure). Question: if Commodore has no money to spend, then how could they have spent more that $100 million in 1990? Answer: you are absolutely confused about the idea of corporate profits. You are confusing profits with "(net sales) - (cost of sales)". The profit for a company is the amount of money left over after all corporate costs (marketing, R&D, maintenance of buildings, salaries, etc..) are subtracted from the total sales. Commodore could easily spend more on advertizing in the U.S. by either diverting funds from other sources or raising their costs of sales. Commodore really is in solid financial condition, and is not "on the verge of bankruptcy" in any way. The last time I looked at Commodore's assets:debt ratio, it was very, very low. For all practical purposes, Commodore is debt-free. > -- Ethan > >"...Know-Nothing-Bozo the Non-Wonder Dog, an animal so stupid that it >had been sacked from one of Will's own commercials for being incapable >of knowing which dog food it was supposed to prefer, despite the fact >that the meat in all the other bowls had engine oil poured all over it." ------------------------------------------------------------- / Marc Barrett -MB- | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / / ISU COM S Student | Internet: XGR39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU / ------------------------------------------------------------ \ The great thing about standards is that / \ there are so many of them to choose from. / -------------------------------------------------------
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (06/24/91)
In article <1991Jun24.122603.3272@news.iastate.edu> taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: > Question: if Commodore has no money to spend, then how could they have >spent more that $100 million in 1990? > > Answer: you are absolutely confused about the idea of corporate profits. >You are confusing profits with "(net sales) - (cost of sales)". > You're right. I'm confused. I have no idea what I said that has made you confused, but it often seems a very easy task. I am not confused at all. Total profits in fiscal 1990 was $5 million. Commodore also has DEBT. They also have stockholders. Making $5 million on close to $900 million in sales is pathetic. Luckily they are doing much better recently. Hopefully, if it continues, Commodore will be in a better position in terms of money. For now, though, money is somewhat tight. > The profit for a company is the amount of money left over after all >corporate costs (marketing, R&D, maintenance of buildings, salaries, etc..) >are subtracted from the total sales. Commodore could easily spend more >on advertizing in the U.S. by either diverting funds from other sources >or raising their costs of sales. > That should read and, not or. By definition, spending more on marketing (which includes ads) raises cost of sales. To spend money on ads, they'd have to divert money from elsewhere. Where would you recommend? Cut back on R&D? Fire some more people? Or maybe they should cut back in Europe where they are actually doing well? Commodore Business Machines (the U.S. division) is barely profitable, if at all (Commodore doesn't like to release that info.). There is a reason Copperman is gone. To turn the U.S. around requires MAJOR work, not another few million here and there, but a lot of millions, and that is hard for Commodore to justify. > Commodore really is in solid financial condition, and is not "on the >verge of bankruptcy" in any way. The last time I looked at Commodore's >assets:debt ratio, it was very, very low. For all practical purposes, >Commodore is debt-free. You mean very, very high, right? 8-) Commodore is nowhere near bankruptcy. No one here has said that. However, Commodore is also not flowing with green either. There isn't money to be thrown around. And Commodore is not debt free. Last I looked, the ratio was about 2:1, which is very good, but not perfect. -- Ethan FF buckets of bits on the bus, FF buckets of bits. Take one down, Pass it to ground, FE buckets of bits on the bus.
jcav@quads.uchicago.edu (john cavallino) (06/24/91)
Data point: The _Wall Street Journal_ of Friday 6/21/91 had an article about the woes of IBM and the computer industry in general, and an expert was quoted as saying that the two computer stocks she considered best bets for future growth were Commodore Business Machines and Apple Computer. She also liked Data General. Was _very_ down on IBM, Compaq and Digital. -- John Cavallino | EMail: jcav@midway.uchicago.edu University of Chicago Hospitals | USMail: 5841 S. Maryland Ave, Box 145 Office of Facilities Management | Chicago, IL 60637 B0 f++ c+ g+ k s+(+) e+ h- pv (qv) | Telephone: 312-702-6900
gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) (06/24/91)
From article <7471@vela.acs.oakland.edu>, by lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey): > My boyfriend runs a Paragon BBS off and on when he's got the extra $$$ > to do so. He writes a door program called Castle Dungeon for it that Tell him that Greg Block, Conference Mail developer, tells him good luck on deciding which BBS system to run next, and that I think he should go with Xenolink, to save him some trouble porting Castle Dungeon. :) > computer dealer for the Amiga. Al, the owner of the store and BBS > system, is going bankrupt selling Amigas. He has recently been posting > some of the reasons why in the Amiga FidoNet Echomail areas. Some of Well, firstly. :) He's been posting to every Amiga fidonet group on the Backbone, and he is completely 1) out of line, 2) off topic, and 3) arrogant when listening to the explanations... It's not like that everywhere. It's just the way it's set up, and when that woman went off on her little errand, a lot of things got messed up. She's back, and she's worked out all the problems here. Everything WILL be fine, it's just a matter of following things to the letter, which was done here. Obviously, Al didn't, but they'll help him straighten everything out. And tell him to stop posting all over the place like that. Not even MB is that rude. :) > Everyone was excited and went home to wait and watch. Alas, there were > many market areas virtually untouched by this "Blitz". Al's area, and > even here in the Metro Detroit area, saw little, if any, of the ads They weren't seen in Wisconsin, either, as far as I know. Milwaukee hasn't seen anything from C= in a long time. But things are going well. It's a matter of using what you have. > isn't though and as such he will be closing down. He's fully expecting > Commodore to pull his dealership status for having the gall to speak > out about his problems, and with the way Commodore has been the last > few years, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they did. Spare me, worse has been said to them. I would be more than surprised. And things are changing, slowly but surely. It's no longer like it used to be. And things are picking up, even in Milwaukee. > converted from Apple with the arrivial of the Amiga. All in all we So did I. :) > shutting down US sales seeing as they couldn't do well here. Couldn't > do well? They haven't done anything to promote good sales here. Makes I don't think they'll be shutting down.... I haven't thought that in a long time. > I once had big hopes for Commodore and the Amiga, but both seemed > doomed to stay a second class company with a second class machine. If you mean that they won't have IBM's popularity, I'll agree. But I think given time it will grow. > PRAYED it would happen! Whatever HP did with the Amiga, it would STILL > have been more than what CBM was doing. Same thing with the recent > Sony rumors. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE will someone with some > advertising BRAINS and interest in advanced R&D PLEASE BUY OUT > COMMODORE and get this thing MOVING in SOME sort of direction!?!? And lose the direction they're beginning to have? No, I think they're just beginning to begin what they promised... The Amiga is just now getting the recognition, power, and strength in the market that it needs, and C= is finally getting the kinds of profits they'll need to start running a good campaign. I'm expecting a HUGE CDTV rollout, that's where they're going to put their earnings, I think. And if that goes well, which I think it will, it will be better for the Amiga as well. Greg -- Socrates: "I drank WHAT????" LMFAP: "Next time you see me, it won't be me." Wubba: "A dream is nothing more than a wish dipped in chocolate and sprinkled with a little imagination." (From my poem, "A Dream") -Wubba
manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) (06/25/91)
In article <7471@vela.acs.oakland.edu>, lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: > [Intro about CBM screwing up...deleted] > > My boyfriend runs a Paragon BBS off and on when he's got the extra $$$ > to do so. He writes a door program called Castle Dungeon for it that > is popular on a lot of Paragon/StarNet, TransAmiga, and XenoLink BBS > systems. This puts him in contact with a lot of other BBS sysops. One > of the ones he's become good friends with runs ClickMeTwice BBS, a 6 > line system dedicated to serving the Amiga, which also happens to be a > computer dealer for the Amiga. Al, the owner of the store and BBS > system, is going bankrupt selling Amigas. He has recently been posting > some of the reasons why in the Amiga FidoNet Echomail areas. Some of > you may have already seen them. He is not alone. We have heard from > other dealers around the country who have had multiple problems with > Commodore resulting in their not being able to maintain a profit and > thus closing their doors. Well I can't comment on messages that I have not seen, but I can respond from a dealer perspective since I work at one as a software developer. It is true that it is difficult to stay alive in the retail business selling Amigas. There are lots of reasons, not all of them the fault of Commodore. Most people when they decide they need to buy a computer, they ask their friends and of course they say "buy an IBM compatible, and here [handing them a copy of computer shopper] is where you can get them cheap!!" So a dealership has to deal with two problems up front. The first being why they should consider an Amiga over an IBM and why they should purchase from a dealer instead of mailorder. Commodore has told their dealers that they should not sit on their butts and wait for the retail sale. It doesn't happen. Instead the dealer needs to get involved with outside sales. That is _exactly_ the way Video Computer Resources is handling things. Our retail store provides a communication area where we meet our customers, staff members go out and beat the bushes. It really is not that hard, most Amiga users can provide a unique insight as to where to go, and in some cases can even arrange times for demonstrations. Commodore US sales represenatives make their money based on the units sold through their respective dealers. This represenative is at our call for shows, GSA demonstrations and anything else we can think of. That level of support exists if the dealer is willing to do some legwork. > > Al called Commodore and voiced his complaints and was only told "Come > up with $10,000 and we'll co-op one with you for your area." What? If > Al had $10,000 he wouldn't NEED the advertising that was PROMISED, > he'd be making a profit on a machine that would have to be selling. He > isn't though and as such he will be closing down. He's fully expecting > Commodore to pull his dealership status for having the gall to speak > out about his problems, and with the way Commodore has been the last > few years, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they did. I'll wager there may be _other_ reasons other than a phone call. Perhaps you can name the dealer? > > I once had big hopes for Commodore and the Amiga, but both seemed > doomed to stay a second class company with a second class machine. > When the rumors of the Hewlett Packard buy-out were floating around I > PRAYED it would happen! Whatever HP did with the Amiga, it would STILL > have been more than what CBM was doing. Same thing with the recent > Sony rumors. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE will someone with some > advertising BRAINS and interest in advanced R&D PLEASE BUY OUT > COMMODORE and get this thing MOVING in SOME sort of direction!?!? Funny I don't remember being flooded on tv or on the radio with HP and Sony advertisements. What makes you think they know about marketing? I think the "What If..." advertisements were just as bas as "Stevie" was. > > Enough of my ramblings. I've given up hope on CBM and the Amiga. I > will continue to use my machine happily until Commodore inevitably > dies off and then I will probably buy a Macintosh. Sure it's more > expensive, but there won't be a CBM around to offer anything better so > why sweat it. It's been fun Commodore, wish you would have done a > better job. Now that is the paragraph that gets my goat. The concept of the company and the machine being second rate because you think you can do a better job. It is not as simple as writing a check for advertising. It is not as simple as giving the Amiga 24 bit graphics as standard. If both of these things were done today it would make ZERO difference to anybody outside of the Amiga community. Commodore could help their dealers by doing more advertising, there is little question there. However, they could help their dealers more by providing better price protection and lower dealer prices on all of the cpu's. It would even be a great help if Commodore would reduce the number of reports required so that dealers can get to the business of selling computers! It would not hurt Commodore's reputation any to pay to have some of the major software packages ported to the Amiga. It would do the Amiga community a great service if the problems between Commodore and Borland were solved. I would love QuatroPro for the Amiga! It will be a combination of these things and a continuing with a single course in system development. I have enjoyed the fact that since Dionne took over there has not been a 180 degree course change. UNIX is still there, the A3000 is still there, and the Power Up program is here! Give Commodore a break! You should have seen them in 1985! ;-) Want to know a company that really can't do anyting but screw up their machine and the dealerships? Atari Corp. > > Laurana > -- > /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ > |Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose | > | | on the world...and you thought things| > |lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. | +------------------------------------------------------+ ///// | Mark D. Manes | ///// | email: manes@vger.nsu.edu | ///// | phone: (804) 683-2532 | \\\\\///// +------------------------------------------------------+ \\\\// Amiga! "Atari is what Commodore was."
smp@myamiga.UUCP (Steven M. Palm) (06/25/91)
In <7471@vela.acs.oakland.edu> lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: > >Every day, in every way, I see myself agreeing more and more with Marc >Barret on more and more things. Not so much the technical aspects of >the machines as much as the simple fact that Commodore keeps screwing >up. This bothers me because I really can't stand Marc that much and >yet I keep nodding my head when I read his posts. I don't know if he >has a clue as to what needs to be done to fix things, but he's right >on the money when he says CBM is screwing up. I would be more tempted to think that you are being brainwashed by perhaps some mesmerizing pattern in his .sig file... :-) Yes, he raises some valid concerns. However, just like a freshman psychology student, he seems to know just enough to be dangerous. I find it rather odd how he can know enough to make a valid sounding point, but yet he seems to go to extremes or abstracts at times to prove/elucidate his point. So I read his posts becuase it gives me a good chance to see the opinions of those who aren't 100% into the Amiga technology. Yes, I see flaws/shortcomings in the current technology, but I certainly cannot condone doomsaying to the degree persued by Mr. Barrett. Regards, Steve -- /-----------------+--------------------------+-----------------------------\ | smp@myamiga.UUCP | myamiga!smp@fps.mcw.edu | rutgers!uwm!fps!myamiga!smp | \-----------------+--------------------------+-----------------------------/
kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (06/25/91)
> I once had big hopes for Commodore and the Amiga, but both seemed > doomed to stay a second class company with a second class machine. Owning a computer can be very much like a marriage. You have shotgun marriages (it's used at work); marriages of convenience (it has easy software); casual affairs (turn it on once a week); friendship or love (familiarity); narcissistic (you designed it yourself :-). The computer marriages which _never_ work out over the long run, are those based solely on "looks" or "bragging rights" or "potential popularity" or brandname "crushes". Those will fail whenever times get rough and/or if someone points out a better-looking partner. It's a natural outcome of being unnaturally fanatical about any one machine. The key is to choose what _you_ want and what fits your needs. And to not worry about what others say. If I had a nickel for every I'm-fed-up message in _any_ computer forum... <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>
lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) (06/26/91)
In article <rkushner.1605@sycom.UUCP> rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) writes: | lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: | >To me, this says that something just isn't right down at the blue and | >red. Al cited the fact that at the dealer's conference that was held | >when Copperman first arrived more advertising, a virtual blitz they | >were told, was about to be launched. TV, Print, Radio. The works. | >Everyone was excited and went home to wait and watch. Alas, there were | >many market areas virtually untouched by this "Blitz". Al's area, and | >even here in the Metro Detroit area, saw little, if any, of the ads | >and then they were usually on around 1 or 2 A.M. when most of the | >world was asleep. | | HA! Bullshit! If I had every dollar that Commodore spent advertising in | Detroit on WXYZ, WKBD, and Preview Guide in 1989, I would guarantee you that | I probably would have quarter of a million dollars by now....They ran ads | every day for TWO months on Detroit's top rated, top dollar news(5PM-7PM | Action News, WXYZ). They ran ads on FOX television(WKBD TV50, Detroit) during | the Simpsons, they ran ads in the Detroit Free Press in the business sections | (third page, with ALL dealers listed that mattered), and they also advertised | on Preview Guide quite a bit....At least 3 times a day... I watch television quite a bit and I rarely ever saw anything near prime-time in terms of advertising from Commodore. The Preview Guide? Big deal. Who sits around and watches the preview guide? Combine that with the fact that I don't have cable and that not everyone else does either and you see a large chunk of wasted advertising. I never once saw a single Commodore ad during the Simpsons and I am an avid Simpsons follower. I saw ONE ad in the Free Press. One. It was a good one, but it was one. And where is all that wonderful advertising now? WHEN was the last time you saw even the horrorible Stevie commercials? The dealers were told that this would be a CONTINUING advertising campaign. So where is it? It isn't there. | | Don't twist things because someone else (Les and Al) is. I'll bet Archie at | MicroWorld would tear Commodore down and burn them as well, because he never | paid for parts for the longest time and Commodore doesn't keep dealers that | don't pay the bills.... I share the same viewpoints as Les and I have talked with Al. Al has kept up with his payments for the things he's ordered. Al's stores are not MicroWorlds and while I agree that MicroWorld is guilty of bad business, Al's store isn't. It is also very hard to pay one's bills when the machine one is trying to sell just is NOT selling. Go into Slipped Disk and ask how sales are. Generally they will tell you they're not that great. At least thats what they've been telling me. | | You have to be OBJECTIVE when you want to consider if the Amiga is good or | not. You can not have birdies telling you things and give them MORE crediblity | than the facts...If you don't like the Amiga and really believe its going down | the tubs, TAKE DOWN THE BBS, SELL THE EQUIPMENT, and get it behind you before | its worthless...Get yourself a 586sx with your $100 VGA board and be | happy..But someone that gripes all the time is never happy..I know, I WAS IN | THE SERVICE BUSINESS for awhile.... First, I pointed out that I LIKE the machine and am happy with THE MACHINE. Re-read my post and it should be clear to you. I never complained about what the MACHINE had or didn't have. As long as there are things available for it I will continue to use it. What I am NOT happy with is CBM. They are a disaster at marketing and managing the Amiga and EVERYONE knows it. You may recall an article in FORBES magazine that stated the same thing. I watch several shows on satelite tv dealing with stocks. Everytime I hear Commodore mentioned I also hear things like: "Nice product, but the company is floundering in getting it marketed to the masses. No stability." Most often I have heard folks advising AGAINST purchass of CBM stock. NOT because it doesn't have a good product, but because they don't know what the hell to do with it. Second, I never claimed any of this to be OBJECTIVE. I'm not a news reporter, I am a consumer and like all consumers I shop by how I feel about things, not by trying to be objective about it. If computer buyers were objective people they would all realize what a MESS MS-DOS is and wouldn't BUY IBMs. Judging from the number of IBMers in the world I would have to say that there are a lot of SUBJECTIVE people out there. Your solution to the problem seems simple enough: "If you don't like the company then sell your machine and get an IBM and put it all behind you" Gee, that sounds an awful lot like what some people tell others who are complaining about the US Government. "If you don't like it, go back to your own damn country." Seems to me a lot of people with your attitude are running CBM and thats probably why they're doing such a cruddy job at it. Laurana -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ |Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose | | | on the world...and you thought things| |lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. |
lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) (06/26/91)
In article <1991Jun24.003834.4258@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: | In article <7471@vela.acs.oakland.edu> lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: | > | >Every day, in every way, I see myself agreeing more and more with Marc | >Barret on more and more things. Not so much the technical aspects of | >the machines as much as the simple fact that Commodore keeps screwing | >up. This bothers me because I really can't stand Marc that much and | >yet I keep nodding my head when I read his posts. I don't know if he | >has a clue as to what needs to be done to fix things, but he's right | >on the money when he says CBM is screwing up. | > | "screwing up" is the wrong phrase. Most of Marc's | complaints (at least the valid ones) are a LACK of action. It | isn't that what they are doing is wrong, but that they aren't | doing all the things we feel they should. Inactivity is as much of a screwup in my mind as trying something and doing it wrong. | As to the dealer, you quote no Commodore policy that | caused him problems except the idea of co-oping advertising | costs. Inform your DEALER that he should wake up. You don't | simply say to a computer company "HI! I wan't to sell your | computer" and expect to have them pay all your costs. There is | investment required. Commodore's policy is we'll help you | advertise. If your dealer can't afford $1,000 to advertise, then | he is in DEEP trouble and there is little Commodore can do. First off, he wasn't expecting Commodore to pay all his bills and that wasn't what I was implying. Commodore did promise more advertising and greater dealer support at their dealer's conference and neither has been forthcoming. Also, Commodore didn't tell Al that he only needed $1,000 to co-op an ad, they wanted $10,000. Thats TEN-THOUSAND. A little bit MORE than a THOUSAND. Al probably could have handled a thousand, but ten-thousand is a different story. | | But, to the subject of Commodore spending on marketing in | the U.S.: Please tell me, whence the money? They don't have any. | Commodore's profits for July 1, 1989 through June 30, 1990 were | five million dollars. This year it looks like they will make | about $40-50 million or so, back to their standard before last | year. That's on sales of appr. one billion dollars. They simply | don't have the money. There are STOCKHOLDERS who do kinda demand | that profit. | I'm not defending every action at CBM, but realism needs | to creep into these discussions. It isn't that Commodore doesn't | have any ideas of how to spend money, they simply don't have | money. | -- Ethan They're going to have to find the money from someplace. Ever heard the phrase: "You have to spend money to make money?" Laurana -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ |Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose | | | on the world...and you thought things| |lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. |
lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) (06/26/91)
In article <1109.2865f0a9@vger.nsu.edu> manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) writes: | In article <7471@vela.acs.oakland.edu>, lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: | > [Intro about CBM screwing up...deleted] | > | > My boyfriend runs a Paragon BBS off and on when he's got the extra $$$ | > to do so. He writes a door program called Castle Dungeon for it that | > is popular on a lot of Paragon/StarNet, TransAmiga, and XenoLink BBS | > systems. This puts him in contact with a lot of other BBS sysops. One | > of the ones he's become good friends with runs ClickMeTwice BBS, a 6 | > line system dedicated to serving the Amiga, which also happens to be a | > computer dealer for the Amiga. Al, the owner of the store and BBS | > system, is going bankrupt selling Amigas. He has recently been posting | > some of the reasons why in the Amiga FidoNet Echomail areas. Some of | > you may have already seen them. He is not alone. We have heard from | > other dealers around the country who have had multiple problems with | > Commodore resulting in their not being able to maintain a profit and | > thus closing their doors. | | Well I can't comment on messages that I have not seen, but I can | respond from a dealer perspective since I work at one as a software | developer. I can post the messages on here if it would help. [....bunch of stuff deleted....] | > | > Al called Commodore and voiced his complaints and was only told "Come | > up with $10,000 and we'll co-op one with you for your area." What? If | > Al had $10,000 he wouldn't NEED the advertising that was PROMISED, | > he'd be making a profit on a machine that would have to be selling. He | > isn't though and as such he will be closing down. He's fully expecting | > Commodore to pull his dealership status for having the gall to speak | > out about his problems, and with the way Commodore has been the last | > few years, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they did. | | I'll wager there may be _other_ reasons other than a phone call. | Perhaps you can name the dealer? | I do not know the name of the store, but I will get the info and post it soon. | > | > I once had big hopes for Commodore and the Amiga, but both seemed | > doomed to stay a second class company with a second class machine. | > When the rumors of the Hewlett Packard buy-out were floating around I | > PRAYED it would happen! Whatever HP did with the Amiga, it would STILL | > have been more than what CBM was doing. Same thing with the recent | > Sony rumors. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE will someone with some | > advertising BRAINS and interest in advanced R&D PLEASE BUY OUT | > COMMODORE and get this thing MOVING in SOME sort of direction!?!? | | Funny I don't remember being flooded on tv or on the radio with | HP and Sony advertisements. What makes you think they know about | marketing? I think the "What If..." advertisements were just as | bas as "Stevie" was. I have seen a heck of a lot more Sony ads than I have CBM ads. I saw a Sony ad for their car CD players just today. I haven't seen a CBM ad since last November. (And I saw very few last november.) The big difference is that people know who Sony and HP are and they haven't ever heard of Amiga let alone Commodore. (Oddly enough the folks at the Oakland Press HAVE heard of Commodore, but mostly because we have a few Commodore Canada Filing cabinets. Complete with the little red and blue logos.) | | > | > Enough of my ramblings. I've given up hope on CBM and the Amiga. I | > will continue to use my machine happily until Commodore inevitably | > dies off and then I will probably buy a Macintosh. Sure it's more | > expensive, but there won't be a CBM around to offer anything better so | > why sweat it. It's been fun Commodore, wish you would have done a | > better job. | | Now that is the paragraph that gets my goat. The concept of the | company and the machine being second rate because you think you can | do a better job. It is not as simple as writing a check for advertising. | It is not as simple as giving the Amiga 24 bit graphics as standard. | If both of these things were done today it would make ZERO difference | to anybody outside of the Amiga community. I didn't say that I thought I could do a better job. Perhaps I can't, but I know that there are other companies out there who probably could. When you compare how many IBM and Apple sales there are with what is comparatively an inferior machine as to how many Amiga sales there are with a better machine it should be obivious that somebody somewhere at CBM isn't doing the right things. I never offered any suggestions to what CBM SHOULD do. I don't claim to have any secret knowledge in that area. That's Marc's domain, not mine.. I merely said that CBM isn't doing anything to promote greater sales. Be it adding new features or even getting the beleaugered 2.0 ROMs out. Nothing that would enhance the Amiga's posture in the general market is being done and what little that is is small and isolated to specific regions of the country. | | Commodore could help their dealers by doing more advertising, there | is little question there. However, they could help their dealers more | by providing better price protection and lower dealer prices on all of | the cpu's. It would even be a great help if Commodore would reduce | the number of reports required so that dealers can get to the business | of selling computers! Now YOU are the one offering suggestions. I agree. Those would all HELP and would MAKE SENSE, so why isn't CBM doing this? | | It would not hurt Commodore's reputation any to pay to have some of | the major software packages ported to the Amiga. It would do the | Amiga community a great service if the problems between Commodore | and Borland were solved. I would love QuatroPro for the Amiga! Again, makes sense to me. So why aren't they doing this? | | It will be a combination of these things and a continuing with | a single course in system development. I have enjoyed the fact | that since Dionne took over there has not been a 180 degree | course change. UNIX is still there, the A3000 is still there, | and the Power Up program is here! I was fearful of that myself. | | Give Commodore a break! You should have seen them in 1985! ;-) I saw them in 1985. I am impressed with the headway they have made, I am not impressed that it took them 6 years with a better product to do it. | | Want to know a company that really can't do anyting but screw up | their machine and the dealerships? Atari Corp. True, but I don't own an Atari. Their condition does not concern me. It's interesting to watch, but it hasn't any affect on me and is therefor irrevelant. | | +------------------------------------------------------+ ///// | | Mark D. Manes | ///// | | email: manes@vger.nsu.edu | ///// | | phone: (804) 683-2532 | \\\\\///// | +------------------------------------------------------+ \\\\// Amiga! | "Atari is what Commodore was." And what Commodore will be again if things don't change. Laurana -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ |Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose | | | on the world...and you thought things| |lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. |
lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) (06/26/91)
In article <1991Jun25.023136.10436@ncsu.edu> kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) writes: | > I once had big hopes for Commodore and the Amiga, but both seemed | > doomed to stay a second class company with a second class machine. | | Owning a computer can be very much like a marriage. You have shotgun | marriages (it's used at work); marriages of convenience (it has | easy software); casual affairs (turn it on once a week); friendship | or love (familiarity); narcissistic (you designed it yourself :-). :-) I'd never quite looked at it that way before. | | The computer marriages which _never_ work out over the long run, are those | based solely on "looks" or "bragging rights" or "potential popularity" | or brandname "crushes". Those will fail whenever times get rough | and/or if someone points out a better-looking partner. | | It's a natural outcome of being unnaturally fanatical about any one machine. | The key is to choose what _you_ want and what fits your needs. And to | not worry about what others say. If I had a nickel for every I'm-fed-up | message in _any_ computer forum... <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu> The Amiga does do what I want and does fill my needs. I just want the company to be around the day after tomorrow to continue to support my needs and have the machine do what I want. With the way things are going, this will not be the case for Commodore. Laurana -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ |Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose | | | on the world...and you thought things| |lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. |
lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) (06/26/91)
In article <13365@uwm.edu> gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu writes: | From article <7471@vela.acs.oakland.edu>, by lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey): | > My boyfriend runs a Paragon BBS off and on when he's got the extra $$$ | > to do so. He writes a door program called Castle Dungeon for it that | | Tell him that Greg Block, Conference Mail developer, tells him good | luck on deciding which BBS system to run next, and that I think he | should go with Xenolink, to save him some trouble porting Castle | Dungeon. :) Thanx Greg, I will do. He's waiting to see what FreeForm BBS will be like before he makes a final decision. XenoLink is high on his list though. | | > computer dealer for the Amiga. Al, the owner of the store and BBS | > system, is going bankrupt selling Amigas. He has recently been posting | > some of the reasons why in the Amiga FidoNet Echomail areas. Some of | | Well, firstly. :) He's been posting to every Amiga fidonet group on | the Backbone, and he is completely 1) out of line, 2) off topic, and | 3) arrogant when listening to the explanations... It's not like that | everywhere. It's just the way it's set up, and when that woman went | off on her little errand, a lot of things got messed up. She's back, | and she's worked out all the problems here. Everything WILL be fine, | it's just a matter of following things to the letter, which was done | here. Obviously, Al didn't, but they'll help him straighten | everything out. | | And tell him to stop posting all over the place like that. Not even | MB is that rude. :) We've already talked to him about that. He is an emotional fellow :-) I can understand it though as he's worked hard to support the Amiga and Commodore and feels like he's being turned on. He is the dealer who sold B.B. King his first Amiga, and has sold him several others since. (Sold him an A3000 not too long ago.) You get a little panicy when you feel everything you've worked for is in jeapordy. | | > Everyone was excited and went home to wait and watch. Alas, there were | > many market areas virtually untouched by this "Blitz". Al's area, and | > even here in the Metro Detroit area, saw little, if any, of the ads | | They weren't seen in Wisconsin, either, as far as I know. Milwaukee | hasn't seen anything from C= in a long time. But things are going | well. It's a matter of using what you have. From what I understand the advertising was limited to the major metropolitan areas like Los Angelos, Washington DC, Detroit, Miami, etc. | | > isn't though and as such he will be closing down. He's fully expecting | > Commodore to pull his dealership status for having the gall to speak | > out about his problems, and with the way Commodore has been the last | > few years, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they did. | | Spare me, worse has been said to them. I would be more than | surprised. And things are changing, slowly but surely. It's no | longer like it used to be. And things are picking up, even in Milwaukee. Lets hope so. | | > converted from Apple with the arrivial of the Amiga. All in all we | | So did I. :) | | > shutting down US sales seeing as they couldn't do well here. Couldn't | > do well? They haven't done anything to promote good sales here. Makes | | I don't think they'll be shutting down.... I haven't thought that in | a long time. As I said, it was only a rumor and should be taken as such. | | > I once had big hopes for Commodore and the Amiga, but both seemed | > doomed to stay a second class company with a second class machine. | | If you mean that they won't have IBM's popularity, I'll agree. But I | think given time it will grow. Again, I hope so. | | > PRAYED it would happen! Whatever HP did with the Amiga, it would STILL | > have been more than what CBM was doing. Same thing with the recent | > Sony rumors. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE will someone with some | > advertising BRAINS and interest in advanced R&D PLEASE BUY OUT | > COMMODORE and get this thing MOVING in SOME sort of direction!?!? | | And lose the direction they're beginning to have? No, I think they're | just beginning to begin what they promised... | | The Amiga is just now getting the recognition, power, and strength in | the market that it needs, and C= is finally getting the kinds of | profits they'll need to start running a good campaign. I'm expecting | a HUGE CDTV rollout, that's where they're going to put their earnings, | I think. And if that goes well, which I think it will, it will be | better for the Amiga as well. I hope you are right. | | Greg Laurana P.S. Thanx for the statement of your views without flaming me for the statement of my own. Some people on this net don't seem to be capable of that. -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ |Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose | | | on the world...and you thought things| |lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. |
rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) (06/26/91)
lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: >In article <rkushner.1605@sycom.UUCP> rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) wri >| lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: >| >To me, this says that something just isn't right down at the blue and >| >red. Al cited the fact that at the dealer's conference that was held >| >when Copperman first arrived more advertising, a virtual blitz they >| >were told, was about to be launched. TV, Print, Radio. The works. >| >Everyone was excited and went home to wait and watch. Alas, there were ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Geeze, what a good attitude to have....No wonder you guys are all screwed up, its corperate socialism I smell now that I read your message better...This is the same thing as looking to the government for EVERYTHING!!! Except instead of the government, you guys are looking to Commodore for all the handouts!!! >| >many market areas virtually untouched by this "Blitz". Al's area, and >| >even here in the Metro Detroit area, saw little, if any, of the ads >| >and then they were usually on around 1 or 2 A.M. when most of the >| >world was asleep. >| >| HA! Bullshit! If I had every dollar that Commodore spent advertising in >| Detroit on WXYZ, WKBD, and Preview Guide in 1989, I would guarantee you that >| I probably would have quarter of a million dollars by now....They ran ads >| every day for TWO months on Detroit's top rated, top dollar news(5PM-7PM >| Action News, WXYZ). They ran ads on FOX television(WKBD TV50, Detroit) durin >| the Simpsons, they ran ads in the Detroit Free Press in the business section >| (third page, with ALL dealers listed that mattered), and they also advertise >| on Preview Guide quite a bit....At least 3 times a day... > >I watch television quite a bit and I rarely ever saw anything near >prime-time in terms of advertising from Commodore. The Preview Guide? >Big deal. Who sits around and watches the preview guide? Combine that >with the fact that I don't have cable and that not everyone else does >either and you see a large chunk of wasted advertising. I never once >saw a single Commodore ad during the Simpsons and I am an avid >Simpsons follower. I saw ONE ad in the Free Press. One. It was a good >one, but it was one. I have ALL KINDS OF VIDEO TAPES around here, people come over here and call me a video king, I have tapes going WAY BACK TO 1984...I can pull out tapes and let it run from FOX and the Simpsons, and let you see the Commodore ads...You're memory isn't all that good...I have the ads here on tape to prove they did advertise.. >And where is all that wonderful advertising now? WHEN was the last >time you saw even the horrorible Stevie commercials? The dealers were >told that this would be a CONTINUING advertising campaign. So where is >it? It isn't there. Where's your local dealers ads? I see MSD(?) advertise in the Free Press computer corner...Ever see it? Mostly they run small 2 line WE FIX AMIGAS ads...But when powerup came out they ran a 3 or 4 line classified... >| >| Don't twist things because someone else (Les and Al) is. I'll bet Archie at >| MicroWorld would tear Commodore down and burn them as well, because he never >| paid for parts for the longest time and Commodore doesn't keep dealers that >| don't pay the bills.... > >I share the same viewpoints as Les and I have talked with Al. Al has >kept up with his payments for the things he's ordered. Al's stores are >not MicroWorlds and while I agree that MicroWorld is guilty of bad >business, Al's store isn't. > >It is also very hard to pay one's bills when the machine one is trying >to sell just is NOT selling. Go into Slipped Disk and ask how sales >are. Generally they will tell you they're not that great. At least >thats what they've been telling me. Get iBM's in there if he has to pay the bills...Look at Microworld!! They are the worlds worst computer store, and they are STILL operating...How many people did they screw through their MCS mail order scamhouse??? You need a bread and butter business....And even if you do get IBM's in there, you will HAVE TO ADVERTISE on your own like PC-Supply does...I have never been to PC-Supply but am very aware that they exist.. >| You have to be OBJECTIVE when you want to consider if the Amiga is good or >| not. You can not have birdies telling you things and give them MORE credibli >| than the facts...If you don't like the Amiga and really believe its going do >| the tubs, TAKE DOWN THE BBS, SELL THE EQUIPMENT, and get it behind you befor >| its worthless...Get yourself a 586sx with your $100 VGA board and be >| happy..But someone that gripes all the time is never happy..I know, I WAS IN >| THE SERVICE BUSINESS for awhile.... > >First, I pointed out that I LIKE the machine and am happy with THE >MACHINE. Re-read my post and it should be clear to you. I never >complained about what the MACHINE had or didn't have. As long as there >are things available for it I will continue to use it. What I am NOT >happy with is CBM. They are a disaster at marketing and managing the >Amiga and EVERYONE knows it. You may recall an article in FORBES >magazine that stated the same thing. You are not happy, and when you are not happy with something, you sell it. Like my A2000 W/GVP HD controller....I sold the S.O.B. because after I started getting into HD controllers it was a mess...I still don't think there is one A2000 controller out there that I would be happy with...Advocacy isn't a place to tear down the Amiga constantly(MB style)...The NeXT people do a good enough job at it without any help..Do you want cutting edge stuff when the whole Amiga philosophy is based on mass production of custom chips used across the line to bring down the cost of the low priced machines...Why do you think they came out with CDTV? The more they make, the cheaper the A500's become.. >I watch several shows on satelite tv dealing with stocks. Everytime I >hear Commodore mentioned I also hear things like: "Nice product, but >the company is floundering in getting it marketed to the masses. No >stability." Most often I have heard folks advising AGAINST purchass of >CBM stock. NOT because it doesn't have a good product, but because >they don't know what the hell to do with it. Good, thats THEIR views...Alot of people make alot of money on Commodore stock, just because it goes way up and way down every 12 months....Its allmost like old faithful...You are just another lemming listening to everyone else instead of going to the Library and looking up what their stock has done...Who made you Charles Swab anyways?? >Second, I never claimed any of this to be OBJECTIVE. I'm not a news >reporter, I am a consumer and like all consumers I shop by how I feel >about things, not by trying to be objective about it. If computer >buyers were objective people they would all realize what a MESS MS-DOS >is and wouldn't BUY IBMs. Judging from the number of IBMers in the >world I would have to say that there are a lot of SUBJECTIVE people >out there. HA! Thats where you go wrong, by saying, I HAVE TO BE BIASED..I am a dumbflub liberal, a brainless conserative, lameass communist, etc.... You have to look at EVERYTHING objectively..You have to do research ON YOUR OWN, not let people tell you how it is...You have to go from personal feelings, your own data, not what others THINK!! Otherwise you're just a lemming..and lemmings normally buy IBMs..So you're saying since I am a consumer, and since the average consumer is dumb, I should be dumb as well!?? I might scream about GVP, but if they come out with a product that I want, and I look at every product thats simular, and pick the best, and its GVP, I will buy it, because I always look at everything objectivly...But they are harassing me, so what do you want? Does Commodore call you up and haggle you?? >Your solution to the problem seems simple enough: "If you don't like >the company then sell your machine and get an IBM and put it all >behind you" Gee, that sounds an awful lot like what some people tell Damn right...It only took me .5 seconds to think up that solution as well!! If you don't like the food don't eat it... >others who are complaining about the US Government. "If you don't like >it, go back to your own damn country." Seems to me a lot of people >with your attitude are running CBM and thats probably why they're >doing such a cruddy job at it. Ha! If the people running CBM had my attitudes they would be kicking ass, and you wouldn't be complaining (in 5 years, it takes time to correct things) about 256 colors and dealer support...BECAUSE YOUR GUY AL WOULD BE OUT OF BUSINESS...I WOULD REALLY BE PUSHING HARD TO GET COMPUSA TO CARRY AMIGAS(High end machines)...And the low end jobbies would be in K-Mart with K-Mart advertising the sucker, not me! K-Mart now has realized they have to advertise products and not depend on the manafacture to...Notice their latest ads?! -- C-UseNet V0.42e Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) If I had a nickel for every time Elizabeth Taylor was married I would have $.35
gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) (06/26/91)
From article <7518@vela.acs.oakland.edu>, by lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey): > Thanx Greg, I will do. He's waiting to see what FreeForm BBS will be > like before he makes a final decision. XenoLink is high on his list > though. I thought that freeform looked pretty interesting, with the ability to mimic any bbs out there, but I wonder how it will compare to some of the stuff out there... DLG's giving everything a run for its money, and it's still in beta... > We've already talked to him about that. He is an emotional fellow :-) > I can understand it though as he's worked hard to support the Amiga > and Commodore and feels like he's being turned on. He is the dealer > who sold B.B. King his first Amiga, and has sold him several others > since. (Sold him an A3000 not too long ago.) You get a little panicy > when you feel everything you've worked for is in jeapordy. Ya, I know whatcha mean... It's been panicky here before, many times. Never fun, but always been solved. I hope C= fixes his problem, the last I heard about it, C= had been calling him daily... How often does B.B. drop in there??? :) > From what I understand the advertising was limited to the major > metropolitan areas like Los Angelos, Washington DC, Detroit, Miami, > etc. Oh, sure. Naturally, that discounts the "Beer Capitol of the World"... :) Hopefully, when they get more money, they'll be able to do more. C= is still pretty poor, as computer companies go... Compared to the big boys, at least... > I hope you are right. So do I. :) > P.S. Thanx for the statement of your views without flaming me for the > statement of my own. Some people on this net don't seem to be capable > of that. :) You'll find that happens alot in CSAA. It's something in the air here. :D Greg -- Socrates: "I drank WHAT????" LMFAP: "Next time you see me, it won't be me." Wubba: "A dream is nothing more than a wish dipped in chocolate and sprinkled with a little imagination." (From my poem, "A Dream") -Wubba
kdarling@hobbes.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (06/26/91)
lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: >The Amiga does do what I want and does fill my needs. I just want the >company to be around the day after tomorrow to continue to support my >needs and have the machine do what I want. With the way things are >going, this will not be the case for Commodore. I agree with the first part: that's a perfectly reasonable desire (altho I hasten to add that many owners of no-longer-supported computers are still happy). The last sentence is a personal prediction, and I usually try not to argue over those (too much :-). I think CBM is trying a lot of things out right now, and that's good... it shows a high desire to please their customers with whatever is currently possible to do. I'm a pan-68K junkie, and so hold no childish allegiances to any one brandname, but I do think CBM is doing an overall better job than they have in many years. However, history has shown that if enough customers don't agree with such an assessment, then there _will_ be real problems. I think that the desire to avoid self-fulfilling prophecies is what causes others to take issue with someone's personal opinions (like yours). Whether that reaction is right or not, I don't know. best - kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu
don@chopin.udel.edu (Donald R Lloyd) (06/26/91)
In article <7515@vela.acs.oakland.edu> lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: >Inactivity is as much of a screwup in my mind as trying something and >doing it wrong. But CBM hasn't been inactive! They are stretching limited resources very far already. I'm not saying those resources might not be better used in other pursuits in some cases, but don't think the folks at CBM are sitting around waiting for things to happen. >First off, he wasn't expecting Commodore to pay all his bills and that >wasn't what I was implying. Commodore did promise more advertising and >greater dealer support at their dealer's conference and neither has >been forthcoming. > >Also, Commodore didn't tell Al that he only needed $1,000 to co-op an >ad, they wanted $10,000. Thats TEN-THOUSAND. A little bit MORE than a >THOUSAND. Al probably could have handled a thousand, but ten-thousand >is a different story. > I'm not exactly sure what you're speaking of here, but I do know that CBM offers a co-op fund to its authorized dealers so that a small percentage of the cost of each product sold goes into a co-op fund from which the dealer can draw money pending approval from Commodore, which is generally easy to get. I've never heard of there being some kind of fee to do this. BTW, Apple had a similar system until recently, but word is it's being dropped because the lower profit margins on the new "low cost" systems aren't high enough to warrant it. (Hmmm... bet they're still making more per unit than CBM is...) >They're going to have to find the money from someplace. Ever heard the >phrase: "You have to spend money to make money?" They _are_ spending money, and they _are_ making money... Believe it or not, CBM _is_ advertising regularly places that count... Unix Today, and similar journals, for instance. James Dionne has been making the rounds at various publications making sure they have the opportunity to see CDTV in action... -- Gibberish May the Publications Editor, AmigaNetwork is spoken fork() be Amiga Student On-Campus Consultant, U of D here. with you. DISCLAIMER: It's all YOUR fault.
manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) (06/26/91)
In article <7516@vela.acs.oakland.edu>, lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: > In article <1109.2865f0a9@vger.nsu.edu> manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) writes: > | In article <7471@vela.acs.oakland.edu>, lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: > | > [Intro about CBM screwing up...deleted] > | > > | > > | > I once had big hopes for Commodore and the Amiga, but both seemed > | > doomed to stay a second class company with a second class machine. > | > When the rumors of the Hewlett Packard buy-out were floating around I > | > PRAYED it would happen! Whatever HP did with the Amiga, it would STILL > | > have been more than what CBM was doing. Same thing with the recent > | > Sony rumors. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE will someone with some > | > advertising BRAINS and interest in advanced R&D PLEASE BUY OUT > | > COMMODORE and get this thing MOVING in SOME sort of direction!?!? > | > | Funny I don't remember being flooded on tv or on the radio with > | HP and Sony advertisements. What makes you think they know about > | marketing? I think the "What If..." advertisements were just as > | bas as "Stevie" was. > > I have seen a heck of a lot more Sony ads than I have CBM ads. I saw a > Sony ad for their car CD players just today. I haven't seen a CBM ad > since last November. (And I saw very few last november.) The big > difference is that people know who Sony and HP are and they haven't > ever heard of Amiga let alone Commodore. (Oddly enough the folks at > the Oakland Press HAVE heard of Commodore, but mostly because we have > a few Commodore Canada Filing cabinets. Complete with the little red > and blue logos.) I would agree that most know about Sony, but I would not agree about HP. The only thing people may know (and I am talking the general public) is that HP makes printers. Selling consumer computers is a different ball of wax than selling machines in the mini-computer market. HP sells micros to companies who already have micros or minis. I wonder how many Vectra owners there are in the homes of America. Lets look at IBM. IBM was considered to be a giant in marketing. How well have the PS/2 series done? They spend tons on advertising, and yet most people buy clones. Why? > > | > | > > | > Enough of my ramblings. I've given up hope on CBM and the Amiga. I > | > will continue to use my machine happily until Commodore inevitably > | > dies off and then I will probably buy a Macintosh. Sure it's more > | > expensive, but there won't be a CBM around to offer anything better so > | > why sweat it. It's been fun Commodore, wish you would have done a > | > better job. > | > | Now that is the paragraph that gets my goat. The concept of the > | company and the machine being second rate because you think you can > | do a better job. It is not as simple as writing a check for advertising. > | It is not as simple as giving the Amiga 24 bit graphics as standard. > | If both of these things were done today it would make ZERO difference > | to anybody outside of the Amiga community. > > I didn't say that I thought I could do a better job. Perhaps I can't, > but I know that there are other companies out there who probably > could. When you compare how many IBM and Apple sales there are with > what is comparatively an inferior machine as to how many Amiga sales > there are with a better machine it should be obivious that somebody > somewhere at CBM isn't doing the right things. > > I never offered any suggestions to what CBM SHOULD do. I don't claim > to have any secret knowledge in that area. That's Marc's domain, not > mine.. I merely said that CBM isn't doing anything to promote greater > sales. Be it adding new features or even getting the beleaugered 2.0 > ROMs out. Nothing that would enhance the Amiga's posture in the > general market is being done and what little that is is small and > isolated to specific regions of the country. You said Commodore is screwing up, and implied that if they released 2.0, and put a ton of funds into advertising that their problems (and yours) would be solved. Is this not saying that you could do a better job?? > > | > | Commodore could help their dealers by doing more advertising, there > | is little question there. However, they could help their dealers more > | by providing better price protection and lower dealer prices on all of > | the cpu's. It would even be a great help if Commodore would reduce > | the number of reports required so that dealers can get to the business > | of selling computers! > > Now YOU are the one offering suggestions. I agree. Those would all > HELP and would MAKE SENSE, so why isn't CBM doing this? As someone that works at a dealership I am in a better position to make suggestions, and certainly we have told Commodore our thoughts. > > | > | It would not hurt Commodore's reputation any to pay to have some of > | the major software packages ported to the Amiga. It would do the > | Amiga community a great service if the problems between Commodore > | and Borland were solved. I would love QuatroPro for the Amiga! > > Again, makes sense to me. So why aren't they doing this? They are! They funded the development of SuperBase Professional 4! Perhaps I am just tired of the constant "Commodore screwed up" postings. I am hypnotized... :-) > Laurana > -- > /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ > |Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose | > | | on the world...and you thought things| > |lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. | -mark= manes@vger.nsu.edu
griffin@frith.egr.msu.edu (Danny Griffin) (06/27/91)
lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: >It is also very hard to pay one's bills when the machine one is trying >to sell just is NOT selling. Go into Slipped Disk and ask how sales >are. Generally they will tell you they're not that great. At least >thats what they've been telling me. Ha! Slipped Disk is the only thing worse for Commodore's image than Commodore itself. We can take this to email if you wish, and I'll tell you why Slipped Disk not only deserves to go under (they've closed their okemos store) but deserves to have Commodore pull their authorization out from under them. Names, places, gory details, shocking pictures reveal all! -- Dan Griffin griffin@frith.egr.msu.edu
simon@ivem1.uucp (Simon) (06/27/91)
>They're going to have to find the money from someplace. Ever heard the >phrase: "You have to spend money to make money?" > >Laurana >|lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. | Does that mean you're going to help finance them? :^) And not just 1 or 5 Amigas being bought. It's easy to say "they need to find the money" but it's a little harder to get it, especially with the tight budget times we're in right now. CBM is just like you and me, they have a limited budget and funding. They can't just go and pump money they don't have into R&D or into customer support or other limited areas, but they have to distribute it into many different areas in order to make the company work. I believe they're working on many of the problems you are addressing, but it's not an overnight thing. It takes time, maybe years, but if one or two people start bailing out because of their short term goals or lack of, then CBM is sure to crumble. Marc needs to see that, as goes for the other people who feel that CBM isn't doing their best. Wait a while and see. Who knows, CBM may end up beating Mac in sales, just as did the C64. CBM is a "home computer company" while the others are "big business" companies. With that kind of a label, it's gonna take CBM a while to become established as something more than just the average user's computer company. -Simon -- * Simon Lee * Microscopy and Imaging Resources * * simon@ivem1.ucsd.edu * Intermediate Voltage Electron Micro * * sulee@ucsd.edu * UC San Diego, Dept. of Neuroscience *
jcrowe@mpd.tandem.com (Joseph Crowe) (06/27/91)
In article <rkushner.2711@sycom.UUCP> rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) writes: >You have to look at EVERYTHING objectively.. Like you Ronnie boy??
navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David C. Navas) (06/27/91)
In article <5508@network.ucsd.edu> simon@ivem1.uucp (Simon) writes: >Does that mean you're going to help finance them? :^) And not just I will buy their stock if I felt that they'd do something appropriate with the money. Does that count? >1 or 5 Amigas being bought. It's easy to say "they need to find the >money" but it's a little harder to get it, especially with the tight >budget times we're in right now. CBM is just like you and me, they If they were "just like you or me" they'd have the house double mortgaged, the Visa card overcharged, and would have the IRS chasing them. Now I have heard (a long time ago) that the IRS was looking askance at the "Bahama" base that Cmdre uses, but I'm not sure where the double mortgage metaphor can be applied. >have a limited budget and funding. They can't just go and pump money >they don't have into R&D or into customer support or other limited A fair number of parents seem to find money to send their kids to college -- I doubt many would have previously said that they had a spare 10 or 20 thousand dollars lying around.... >It takes time, maybe years, but if one or two people start bailing >out because of their short term goals or lack of, then CBM is sure >to crumble. Marc needs to see that, as goes for the other people >who feel that CBM isn't doing their best. Wait a while and see. I have waited. I am posting what I see. A small company known as Amiga has done what a company with a hundred times the resouces has failed to do in seven. I see little reason to praise Cmdre -- they have started a number of very good programs. Historically, however, the people who start such projects eventually leave or get fired. I don't congratulate postal carriers for failing to suffocate themselves with their letter bags, I fail to see why I should do any different for any other group of people. EVEN groups which have had such suicidal tendencies in the past. Perhaps that shows a cynical, Darwinistic attitude, but I do like the quote "...I wish they'd go the whole way and emasculate themselves." >Who knows, CBM may end up beating Mac in sales, just as did the C64. >CBM is a "home computer company" while the others are "big business" >companies. With that kind of a label, it's gonna take CBM a while >to become established as something more than just the average user's >computer company. I WISH they were the average user's computer company. Indeed, they have a perfect consumer "computer" in the CDTV. It's an appliance -- wonderful! Now MARKET it! If I may be so bold as to quote a better writer than I (not hard :> ) "...it's frustrating to have the ability to solve your problems right there, in your hand, and you can't make the fist." David Navas navas@cory.berkeley.edu 2.0 :: "You can't have your cake and eat it too." Also try c186br@holden, c260-ay@ara and c184-ap@torus
taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) (06/27/91)
In article <5508@network.ucsd.edu>, simon@ivem1.uucp (Simon) writes: >>They're going to have to find the money from someplace. Ever heard the >>phrase: "You have to spend money to make money?" >> >>Laurana >>|lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. | > >Does that mean you're going to help finance them? :^) And not just >1 or 5 Amigas being bought. It's easy to say "they need to find the >money" but it's a little harder to get it, especially with the tight >budget times we're in right now. CBM is just like you and me, they >have a limited budget and funding. They can't just go and pump money >they don't have into R&D or into customer support or other limited >areas, but they have to distribute it into many different areas in >order to make the company work. The original Amiga company that made the Amiga (or, as it was called back then, the Lorraine) was a joystick company that spent every penny of their corporate incoming (and then some) on development of the Amiga. They invested every dime they could earn or borrow in their dream. Now, answer this: where would the Amiga be today if, instead, these people at the original Amiga company had, instead, played it safe and only invested 2.5% of their corporate income on development of the Amiga? [junk deleted] > >-Simon >-- >* Simon Lee * Microscopy and Imaging Resources * >* simon@ivem1.ucsd.edu * Intermediate Voltage Electron Micro * >* sulee@ucsd.edu * UC San Diego, Dept. of Neuroscience * ------------------------------------------------------------- / Marc Barrett -MB- | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / / ISU COM S Student | Internet: XGR39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU / ------------------------------------------------------------ \ The great thing about standards is that / \ there are so many of them to choose from. / -------------------------------------------------------
force@minnie.cs.su.OZ.AU (Jason Henry Den Dulk) (06/27/91)
Reading the articles posted here about Commodore Advertising I thought I would put my 2c worth in. Many years ago, I watched an ad campaign for the Amiga here in Australia. It had celebrities and catchy jingles with a pathetic display of what the amiga could do. The celeb was John Laws (who charges about as much as a manufacturer of a B2 bomber), but he is only a celeb to housewives and other domestic types. Anybody who would want a computer for any purpose couldn't care less about him (in fact many hate his guts), so the money spent on those ads (and there were quite a lot them, including prime time) was a pure waste (in fact it would have done more harm than good). A little more recently I saw an ad ONCE (never saw it again) that was more what sould be shown. A couple a suits discussing a presentation that was very good. The author said that was because "I have the edge, I have the Amiga 2000". I didn't look flashy, wouldn't have been expensive, but would have generated more sales than the braindead John Laws campaign. But I only saw it ONCE. Now on to modern times. The latest campaign was divided into two lots. One for the Commodore IBM-Clones, and one for the Amiga. The IBM-Clone ad showed students and professionals using the computer for all kinds of uses. The Amiga ad showed glass bubbles and racing cars, with kids in the backgound saying things like "thousands of games". These ads were shown quite a lot, including prime time. So what's my point? At least here in Australia, Commodore doesn't seem to skimp on money (celebrities and wizz-bang effects are not exactly the cheapest way to create an ad), but does it in the worst possible way. Also it has been shown that Commodore can make good ads, but won't for the Amiga. What is it with Commodore? Do they not have confidence in the Amiga as a business machine? Or do they themselves consider the Amiga to be a second class machine only suitable for games and the like? To quote Shakesphere.. "More matter, less art" Commodore. MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU force@cs.su.oz.au
rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) (06/27/91)
griffin@frith.egr.msu.edu (Danny Griffin) writes: >lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: > >>It is also very hard to pay one's bills when the machine one is trying >>to sell just is NOT selling. Go into Slipped Disk and ask how sales >>are. Generally they will tell you they're not that great. At least >>thats what they've been telling me. > >Ha! Slipped Disk is the only thing worse for Commodore's image than >Commodore itself. We can take this to email if you wish, and I'll tell >you why Slipped Disk not only deserves to go under (they've closed >their okemos store) but deserves to have Commodore pull their >authorization out from under them. Names, places, gory details, >shocking pictures reveal all! You'll never see Slipped Disk get their C= dealership pulled for a few reasons: #1 They are a volume dealer. They sold something like 120 A2000's in the month of December last year. Don't ask how many A500's... #2 Volume. Slipped Disk orders ALOT of units from Commodore. They have tried to arrange a distributorship with Commodore in the past(but fell through), and probably will in the future. #3 Sheldon Leemon. I think the guy knows more people at Commodore than some people at Commodore...He's been around, heck, for a long damn time. Probably since the P.E.T. days...Not every dealer has access to someone that writes for AmigaWorld either... #4 Volume! Last time I was in Slipped Disk they moved 40 C64's, sold them to Warren Consolidated Schools, complete with 1084 monitors..And then Jeff sells 3 A3000UX's just over the phone to top it all off...They get the business in Madison Heights, thats for sure.. #5 They are the only place you can go around here anyways(East Side of Metro Detroit, basically close to south Macomb County). CATS Co only has one guy who knows the Amiga and doesn't stock many. Rite Way is only interested in selling Atari Mega's. MicroWorld, well, MicroWorld didn't pay their bills to Commodore once upon a time, so they are no longer authorized and I believe they get their units from Slipped Disk..(Plus MW will screw you...I heard their mail order company MCS was selling A500 ram boards that had pulled rams in them as new) #6 Commodore is in no shape to pull any high volume dealer, especially in the Detroit area...I think Laurana doesn't talk to the same people at Slipped Disk that I have talked to...I mean, I call down there, and its like, "Ronald Kushner, oh, Life In Hell BBS right?" They know who I am as much as I know who they are...Actually, when someone pulls my name out of a hat like that, my mind starts going through paranoid dilutions...Anyways, with PowerUp, they have moved alot of units, I think I was told 50++ at the end of May...Commodore definatly sold the 900 units they wanted to if SD sold over 50.. #7 If any dealer around here could get Amigas, and make it well known, and give you very good support, Slipped Disk would go out of business on their own...Southfield, Okemos, Lovonia, and Saint Clair Shores stores all closing up shows they don't compete when there are other major choices..They just have the business that MicroWorld created in Macomb County and lost when they pissed everyone off...Even Warren Consolidated Schools has MW on a "shit" list...You might HATE SD, but people around here hate MW worse... I think the only reason MicroWorld is still around is the love/hate type of responce you get with Slipped Disk, they are like Bill Bonds, you either love him or wish he was dead(Bill Bonds is a local news archor that Channel 7 thinks is Detroits "News Christ", check last weeks Wall Street Journal for more info on Bill Bonds, Tuesday or Wed)...If I hadn't found Cats Co, I would have power'ed up at Michigan Micro in Lapeer...(having to order a unit, I would not order it from Slipped Disk, they probably had a waiting list a mile wide and three miles long, plus the price was the same everywhere) -- C-UseNet V0.42e Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) The lack of money is the root of all evil.
lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) (06/28/91)
Forget it, you're not worth responding to. You're just as much of an idiot as those dolts down at CBM. Laurana -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ |Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose | | | on the world...and you thought things| |lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. |
lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) (06/28/91)
In article <13443@uwm.edu> gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu writes: | I thought that freeform looked pretty interesting, with the ability to | mimic any bbs out there, but I wonder how it will compare to some of | the stuff out there... DLG's giving everything a run for its money, | and it's still in beta... DLG is nice, but it's too damned expensive. | | > We've already talked to him about that. He is an emotional fellow :-) | > I can understand it though as he's worked hard to support the Amiga | > and Commodore and feels like he's being turned on. He is the dealer | > who sold B.B. King his first Amiga, and has sold him several others | > since. (Sold him an A3000 not too long ago.) You get a little panicy | > when you feel everything you've worked for is in jeapordy. | | Ya, I know whatcha mean... It's been panicky here before, many times. | Never fun, but always been solved. I hope C= fixes his problem, the | last I heard about it, C= had been calling him daily... Al has said that CBM is at least talking to him now. | | How often does B.B. drop in there??? :) I wouldn't be able to tell you. I don't reside in the same state, but I will ask Al next time we log in to drop off the latest version of Castle Dungeon to him. (A Door program for Paragon/StarNet/Xenolink that Les writes.) | | > From what I understand the advertising was limited to the major | > metropolitan areas like Los Angelos, Washington DC, Detroit, Miami, | > etc. | | Oh, sure. Naturally, that discounts the "Beer Capitol of the | World"... :) Hopefully, when they get more money, they'll be able to | do more. C= is still pretty poor, as computer companies go... | Compared to the big boys, at least... Thats true. Wish I was rich so I could offer some capital. | | > P.S. Thanx for the statement of your views without flaming me for the | > statement of my own. Some people on this net don't seem to be capable | > of that. | | :) You'll find that happens alot in CSAA. It's something in the air | here. :D It's gotta ne something like that. ;-) Laurana -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ |Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose | | | on the world...and you thought things| |lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. |
lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) (06/28/91)
In article <1991Jun26.175807.27917@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> griffin@frith.egr.msu.edu (Danny Griffin) writes: | | >It is also very hard to pay one's bills when the machine one is trying | >to sell just is NOT selling. Go into Slipped Disk and ask how sales | >are. Generally they will tell you they're not that great. At least | >thats what they've been telling me. | | Ha! Slipped Disk is the only thing worse for Commodore's image than | Commodore itself. We can take this to email if you wish, and I'll tell | you why Slipped Disk not only deserves to go under (they've closed | their okemos store) but deserves to have Commodore pull their | authorization out from under them. Names, places, gory details, | shocking pictures reveal all! No need really. I have had my own bad experiences with Slipped Disk and as such have stopped dealing with them. I generally buy my stuff through Cats Co. in Troy, Michigan. They have better prices than Slipped Disk and a better attitude as well. They're closer too. Slipped Disk wanted $180 for a 1 Meg Chip Agnus installed when Les recently upgraded. Cats sold it to Les for $89. Les installed it himself. (Warranty? What warranty? This machine is one of the first A2000s! The warranty died LONG ago.) | | -- | Dan Griffin | griffin@frith.egr.msu.edu Laurana -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ |Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose | | | on the world...and you thought things| |lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. |
lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) (06/28/91)
In article <5508@network.ucsd.edu> simon@ivem1.uucp (Simon) writes: | >They're going to have to find the money from someplace. Ever heard the | >phrase: "You have to spend money to make money?" | > | >Laurana | >|lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. | | | Does that mean you're going to help finance them? :^) And not just | 1 or 5 Amigas being bought. It's easy to say "they need to find the | money" but it's a little harder to get it, especially with the tight | budget times we're in right now. CBM is just like you and me, they | have a limited budget and funding. They can't just go and pump money | they don't have into R&D or into customer support or other limited | areas, but they have to distribute it into many different areas in | order to make the company work. I believe they're working on many | of the problems you are addressing, but it's not an overnight thing. | It takes time, maybe years, but if one or two people start bailing | out because of their short term goals or lack of, then CBM is sure | to crumble. Marc needs to see that, as goes for the other people | who feel that CBM isn't doing their best. Wait a while and see. | Who knows, CBM may end up beating Mac in sales, just as did the C64. | CBM is a "home computer company" while the others are "big business" | companies. With that kind of a label, it's gonna take CBM a while | to become established as something more than just the average user's | computer company. To most non-Amiga folk, the Amiga is a game machine, not a home computer. A low-cost IBM clone is a home computer or a Sega Genesis depending on orientation of the family involved. Wait awhile? I've been waiting over 4 years. Isn't that long enough? Be nice to see some major improvements before the end of the new decade. I realize that Commodore doesn't have as much money as Apple or IBM, but Amiga Inc managed to put together the first Amiga in less than 3 years. Why don't they get Jay Miner back and have him whip up some new chip sets? I'm certain that if he could work miracles once he could do it again. Who do you know that would be better? I don't mind waiting as long as I SEE something every now and then. I have yet to see 2.0 outside of an A3000 yet let alone a major improvement to the graphics and sound. Laurana -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ |Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose | | | on the world...and you thought things| |lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. |
lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) (06/28/91)
In article <1128.2868758b@vger.nsu.edu> manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) writes: [....bunch of previous stuff deleted...] | > | > I have seen a heck of a lot more Sony ads than I have CBM ads. I saw a | > Sony ad for their car CD players just today. I haven't seen a CBM ad | > since last November. (And I saw very few last november.) The big | > difference is that people know who Sony and HP are and they haven't | > ever heard of Amiga let alone Commodore. (Oddly enough the folks at | > the Oakland Press HAVE heard of Commodore, but mostly because we have | > a few Commodore Canada Filing cabinets. Complete with the little red | > and blue logos.) | | I would agree that most know about Sony, but I would not agree about | HP. The only thing people may know (and I am talking the general | public) is that HP makes printers. At least they can readily identify that HP makes printers. The people at the Oakland Press still think that Commodore still makes Filing Cabinets, not computers. | | Lets look at IBM. IBM was considered to be a giant in marketing. | How well have the PS/2 series done? They spend tons on advertising, | and yet most people buy clones. Why? Most home users buy clones. A lot of businesses have made the changes to the PS/2 series. You can see tons of them at work in Comerica Bank's Operations Center in Auburn Hills, MI. Other local companies to me have also started using them. Home users stick with the clones because they are cheaper. [....bunch more stuff deleted....] | > | > I didn't say that I thought I could do a better job. Perhaps I can't, | > but I know that there are other companies out there who probably | > could. When you compare how many IBM and Apple sales there are with | > what is comparatively an inferior machine as to how many Amiga sales | > there are with a better machine it should be obivious that somebody | > somewhere at CBM isn't doing the right things. | > | > I never offered any suggestions to what CBM SHOULD do. I don't claim | > to have any secret knowledge in that area. That's Marc's domain, not | > mine.. I merely said that CBM isn't doing anything to promote greater | > sales. Be it adding new features or even getting the beleaugered 2.0 | > ROMs out. Nothing that would enhance the Amiga's posture in the | > general market is being done and what little that is is small and | > isolated to specific regions of the country. | | You said Commodore is screwing up, and implied that if they released | 2.0, and put a ton of funds into advertising that their problems | (and yours) would be solved. Is this not saying that you could do | a better job?? No it isn't. I offered possible solutions, I didn't say they were the ANSWERs. In my opinion it would help, but I didn't claim to know it was the right thing to do. Just because someone suggests something to you on how to make your life easier (Buy a dishwasher) doesn't mean they're trying to run your life for you. Get real. | > | is little question there. However, they could help their dealers more | > | by providing better price protection and lower dealer prices on all of | > | the cpu's. It would even be a great help if Commodore would reduce | > | the number of reports required so that dealers can get to the business | > | of selling computers! | > | > Now YOU are the one offering suggestions. I agree. Those would all | > HELP and would MAKE SENSE, so why isn't CBM doing this? | | As someone that works at a dealership I am in a better position to | make suggestions, and certainly we have told Commodore our thoughts. I don't see how where you work should have any effect on your ability to offer opinions. I don't see why you being a dealer should make your ideas any better than the consumers. Come down off your cloud and get a clue on life. I work out in the field programming on UNIX boxes. How I WISH these people would buy A3000UXs, but they haven't even HEARD of an Amiga (What's an OMEGA?) let alone thought about using them. | | > | > | | > | It would not hurt Commodore's reputation any to pay to have some of | > | the major software packages ported to the Amiga. It would do the | > | Amiga community a great service if the problems between Commodore | > | and Borland were solved. I would love QuatroPro for the Amiga! | > | > Again, makes sense to me. So why aren't they doing this? | | They are! They funded the development of SuperBase Professional 4! SuperBase already had several databases out for the Amiga. What was to stop them from developing SuperBase Professional 4 on their own? Why didn't they put that money towards better known IBM applications like Lotus 1-2-3 or AutoCad or dBase IV? Lord knows I don't need them, but it would attract attention away from Big Blue. | | Perhaps I am just tired of the constant "Commodore screwed up" | postings. I am hypnotized... :-) Perhaps I am just tired of CBM screwing up. Laurana -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ |Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose | | | on the world...and you thought things| |lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. |
groleau@Damrod.McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Francois Groleau) (06/28/91)
In article <7471@vela.acs.oakland.edu> lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: >dies off and then I will probably buy a Macintosh. Sure it's more ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >expensive, but there won't be a CBM around to offer anything better so ^^^^^^^^^ >why sweat it. It's been fun Commodore, wish you would have done a >better job. > Why do you think they are more expensive? Somebody somewhere has to pay for all those TV-Radio-Magazine ads and that's the customer. If you really want Commodore to advertise as much as Apple and IBM do, don't complain if their machines get comparatively expensive. Of course, low-end computers from those companies are not that expensive but they won't offer you someting like the A3000 for a decent price (I must admit I got mine under the educational deal). >Laurana >-- >/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ >|Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose | >| | on the world...and you thought things| >|lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. | Francois Groleau | Going on means going far... | // Only Amiga! McRCIM | ...going far means returning | // McGill University| |\\ // Proud owner of an Montreal, Canada |<groleau@ice.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>| \X/ Amiga 3000!
rehrauer@apollo.hp.com (Steve Rehrauer) (06/29/91)
In article <1991Jun26.211411.7138@news.iastate.edu> taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: > The original Amiga company that made the Amiga (or, as it was called back >then, the Lorraine) was a joystick company that spent every penny of their >corporate incoming (and then some) on development of the Amiga. They >invested every dime they could earn or borrow in their dream. So, from a purely capitalistic point of view, who was the more successful? Amiga Inc. which failed, or Commodore who has had fair success selling the Amiga computer? > Now, answer this: where would the Amiga be today if, instead, these >people at the original Amiga company had, instead, played it safe and only >invested 2.5% of their corporate income on development of the Amiga? Be sure to drop us a line when you're gainfully employed, Marc. I, at least, will be interested in hearing how much of your brain-sweat and personal fortune (or at least, credit rating) you've risked, say, 2-3 years later to build _your_ dreams. You'd be ever so much more persuasive had you a few battle scars of your own. And Christ, that box before you is a *computer*, not an altar. Stop praying to it for miracles. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > / Marc Barrett -MB- | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / >/ ISU COM S Student | Internet: XGR39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU / >------------------------------------------------------------ >\ The great thing about standards is that / > \ there are so many of them to choose from. / > ------------------------------------------------------- -- "Did you check the car to see if it's okay for | Steve Rehrauer a long trip, Sam?" "Well, the wheels are still | rehrauer@apollo.hp.com on... and here's the key... Yep, everything | Hewlett-Packard checks out!" -- Freelance Police | MA Languages Lab
rkushner@sycom.UUCP (Ronald Kushner) (06/29/91)
lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: >Most home users buy clones. A lot of businesses have made the changes >to the PS/2 series. You can see tons of them at work in Comerica >Bank's Operations Center in Auburn Hills, MI. Other local companies to >me have also started using them. Home users stick with the clones >because they are cheaper. People around here buy whats made in the USA(and says so on the front), because, I am told, that if there is the perception that its from Japan, or Korea, or anywhere else, that some workers (especially temperary help) just bang on the keyboards as hard as they can trying to break it! They go and fiddle withit unplugging/plug in things while they are on, etc, just trying to fry the equipment...At least this is what I was told at Uniroyal when I asked why they had all PS/2's... -- C-UseNet V0.42f Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666 P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!) A Smith & Wesson beats four aces.
es1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (06/29/91)
In article <7585@vela.acs.oakland.edu> lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: >Forget it, you're not worth responding to. You're just as much of an >idiot as those dolts down at CBM. > Which dolts are you referring to? The management, the marketing/sales, or the R&D people? You see, the only CBM people who read your message are the R&D people, and in general no one has found fault with them. Rather downright rude of you. -- Ethan FF buckets of bits on the bus, FF buckets of bits. Take one down, Short it to ground, FE buckets of bits on the bus.
es1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (06/29/91)
In article <7592@vela.acs.oakland.edu> lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: >In article <1128.2868758b@vger.nsu.edu> manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) writes: > >| > | It would not hurt Commodore's reputation any to pay to have some of >| > | the major software packages ported to the Amiga. It would do the >| > | Amiga community a great service if the problems between Commodore >| > | and Borland were solved. I would love QuatroPro for the Amiga! >| > >| > Again, makes sense to me. So why aren't they doing this? >| >| They are! They funded the development of SuperBase Professional 4! > >SuperBase already had several databases out for the Amiga. What was to >stop them from developing SuperBase Professional 4 on their own? Why >didn't they put that money towards better known IBM applications like >Lotus 1-2-3 or AutoCad or dBase IV? Lord knows I don't need them, but >it would attract attention away from Big Blue. > Assuming it is the case that Commodore paid for SuperBase IV, I can only assume that the reason was that Precision wouldn't have done it otherwise. Also, Precision, as you say, already has Amiga products, and programmers who are familiar with Amiga programming. I'm sure the cost was probably far lower to convince Precision than Lotus. -- Ethan FF buckets of bits on the bus, FF buckets of bits. Take one down, Short it to ground, FE buckets of bits on the bus.
lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) (06/30/91)
In article <1991Jun28.230046.8372@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: | In article <7585@vela.acs.oakland.edu> lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: | >Forget it, you're not worth responding to. You're just as much of an | >idiot as those dolts down at CBM. | > | Which dolts are you referring to? The management, the | marketing/sales, or the R&D people? You see, the only CBM people | who read your message are the R&D people, and in general no one | has found fault with them. Rather downright rude of you. | -- Ethan You're right, it was rude of me. Don't hold your breath waiting for me to apologize though. Laurana -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ |Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose | | | on the world...and you thought things| |lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. |
lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) (06/30/91)
In article <1991Jun28.230609.30900@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: | In article <7592@vela.acs.oakland.edu> lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: | >In article <1128.2868758b@vger.nsu.edu> manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) writes: | > | >| > | It would not hurt Commodore's reputation any to pay to have some of | >| > | the major software packages ported to the Amiga. It would do the | >| > | Amiga community a great service if the problems between Commodore | >| > | and Borland were solved. I would love QuatroPro for the Amiga! | >| > | >| > Again, makes sense to me. So why aren't they doing this? | >| | >| They are! They funded the development of SuperBase Professional 4! | > | >SuperBase already had several databases out for the Amiga. What was to | >stop them from developing SuperBase Professional 4 on their own? Why | >didn't they put that money towards better known IBM applications like | >Lotus 1-2-3 or AutoCad or dBase IV? Lord knows I don't need them, but | >it would attract attention away from Big Blue. | > | Assuming it is the case that Commodore paid for SuperBase | IV, I can only assume that the reason was that Precision wouldn't | have done it otherwise. Also, Precision, as you say, already has | Amiga products, and programmers who are familiar with Amiga | programming. I'm sure the cost was probably far lower to convince | Precision than Lotus. | -- Ethan Perhaps thats true, but the impressiveness is no where near as much. As the average IBM user what they think of SuperBase Professional 4 and the answer you most often hear is "Super-What?" Laurana -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ |Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose | | | on the world...and you thought things| |lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. |
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (06/30/91)
In article <7661@vela.acs.oakland.edu> lmbailey@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Laurana Bailey) writes: > >Perhaps thats true, but the impressiveness is no where near as much. >As the average IBM user what they think of SuperBase Professional 4 >and the answer you most often hear is "Super-What?" > It is true that Lotus would make a big "image" difference. But it isn't like if you just get Lotus ported the Amiga will become accepted in business markets. The Amiga's price doesn't compete with clones (how can it?). And people are sheep who like to be herded, they would have to be actively converted, and that would take an enormous effort. Also, we'd likely have the same problem with Lotus (in 2 years) as we have with WordPerfect. We'd have a several-generation old program with bugs. Personally, I'd much rather see WordPerfect 5.1 as I feel that the word processors on the Amiga are significantly behind the spreadsheets. -- Ethan FF buckets of bits on the bus, FF buckets of bits. Take one down, Short it to ground, FE buckets of bits on the bus.