jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (06/28/91)
I couldn't help writing this even if it might bring up the old NeXT/Amiga flamewar... In the new Personal Computing World (the leading British mag.) is a short review of A3000UX. The headline is "Commodore loses its way" and the article states, among other things, that the thing runs X-windows very slowly (no, I haven't had a change to try it myself yet). So much for the said sluggishness of the NeXTstep... The writer continues by comparing the A3000UX with a NeXTstation and the conclusion is that he doesn't find any reason to buy an Amiga since you get much more for your money with the NeXT (or SPARC, for that matter). Hmm, read the article before you flame back... :-) Greetings, Jouni
peter@Sugar.NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) (06/30/91)
In article <1991Jun28.185652.1@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: > In the new Personal Computing World (the leading British mag.) is a > short review of A3000UX. The headline is "Commodore loses its way" and I would tend to agree. The A3000UX isn't something I would particularly recommend, at least for business or academic use. It does sound like a better way to get UNIX for individuals. More than anything else it's like the Bridge board. "UNIX support" is coming to be the same sort of line item for purchasing to check off like "PC compatibility". But... > the article states, among other things, that the thing runs X-windows > very slowly (no, I haven't had a change to try it myself yet). So much for > the said sluggishness of the NeXTstep... The writer What, because X windows is sluggish that means NeXTSTeP isn't? They both suck canal water through a dirt garden hose... > continues by comparing the A3000UX with a NeXTstation and the conclusion > is that he doesn't find any reason to buy an Amiga since you get much > more for your money with the NeXT (or SPARC, for that matter). You do, if the NeXT or Sparc is exactly what you need. Both pretty much need a network to tango, though (the NeXT less so, the equivalent priced Sparc is diskless... the NeXT just comes with no expansion and barely enough disk space). -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>. 'U` "Have you hugged your wolf today?"
jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi (06/30/91)
In article <1991Jun30.015457.17258@Sugar.NeoSoft.com>, peter@Sugar.NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > In article <1991Jun28.185652.1@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: > > But... > >> the article states, among other things, that the thing runs X-windows >> very slowly (no, I haven't had a change to try it myself yet). So much for >> the said sluggishness of the NeXTstep... The writer > > What, because X windows is sluggish that means NeXTSTeP isn't? They both suck > canal water through a dirt garden hose... Oh, well. I didn't mean it this way. I just referred to the old flamewar here (where many people were complaining about the NeXTstep's "sluggishness" when they compared the NeXT to A3000UX). And I _still_ don't get it how NeXTstep is "sluggish. I have had a NeXT for a few months now and I sure don't notice any major sluggishness. I have only 8MB RAM and the GENERAL user interface operation (i.e. without many big apps running simultaneously) is as responsive as in just about any other GUI I've ever tried (and IF there is sluggishness sometimes, it's mainly because of swapping - it's easily avoided by buying a bit more RAM). >> continues by comparing the A3000UX with a NeXTstation and the conclusion >> is that he doesn't find any reason to buy an Amiga since you get much >> more for your money with the NeXT (or SPARC, for that matter). > > You do, if the NeXT or Sparc is exactly what you need. Both pretty much need > a network to tango, though (the NeXT less so, the equivalent priced Sparc is > diskless... the NeXT just comes with no expansion and barely enough disk space). Well, the writer stated that he could buy a NeXTstation with 400MB hard disk and some extra goodies (extented memory and co-Xist) for about the same price than an A3000UX with 200MB hard disk and 8MB memory and no bundled apps (except monochrome X). Jouni
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (06/30/91)
In article <1991Jun30.015457.17258@Sugar.NeoSoft.com> peter@Sugar.NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > the article states, among other things, that the thing runs X-windows > very slowly (no, I haven't had a change to try it myself yet). So much for > the said sluggishness of the NeXTstep... The writer What, because X windows is sluggish that means NeXTSTeP isn't? They both suck canal water through a dirt garden hose... This is simply not true. NeXTStep is quite responsive on a 16MB(<$600 for an 16MB at the Chip Merchant). I thought that our long discussion a few months back settled the misunderstanding that the NeXT is slow. There's more horsepower in the 68040 NeXT than a 68030 Amiga even with the blitter. You do, if the NeXT or Sparc is exactly what you need. Both pretty much need a network to tango, though (the NeXT less so, the equivalent priced Sparc is diskless... the NeXT just comes with no expansion and barely enough disk space). Why wouldn't a NeXT be a great stand alone machine? Methinks you are wrong. Any machine is better if it's networked, but I can't think of any reason that you "pretty much need a network." Also, you can buy the NeXT with a 105MB, 200MB, 400MB, or 1.2GB(Cube only) configurations. There is a SCSI port on the back for an external HD too. Could you clarify what you mean by "no expansion?" The NeXTstation is expandable to 32MB using 4MB SIMMS(will 16MB SIMMS be compatible with the current SIMM slots?). There is a SCSI port, plus several other ports for modems, printers, etc. I think there's even a port for directly connecting to the DSP. Midi devices can be connected to the NeXT. What more do you want? Color for your DTP packages? Buy a NeXTstation color. What have you added to you "expandable" Amiga 3000 lately? -Mike
gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) (07/01/91)
From article <p=3H!#+!@cs.psu.edu>, by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): > This is simply not true. NeXTStep is quite responsive on a 16MB(<$600 > for an 16MB at the Chip Merchant). I thought that our long discussion It's a windowing-speed thing. No, the NeXTStep isn't as fast as the Amy's windowing system. The rest of the system is. But that's not what's important, and it's not what's being discussed. > There's more horsepower in the 68040 NeXT than a 68030 Amiga even with > the blitter. There's more horsepower in a 68040 Amiga than a 68040 NeXT... :D (Fusion-Forty... Actually, I'd like to hear a comparison of the F40 board for the 2000, supposedly the fastest 040 card for the 'miga, and the NeXT. It'd be informative. Anyone, anyone???) > Could you clarify what you mean by "no expansion?" The NeXTstation is > expandable to 32MB using 4MB SIMMS(will 16MB SIMMS be compatible with So is the Fusion Forty, which is why I'd like to see a comparison. :) Seriously. The... uh-oh, brain blackout. Whatever they call their Workbench/Finder thing, and the NeXTStep graphic interface in general, isn't as fast as a 'miga, and isn't as fast as a Mac (I don't think. I haven't had much use for my IIcx as of late, and don't want to mess with it if I don't have to. :) Greg -- Socrates: "I drank WHAT????" LMFAP: "Next time you see me, it won't be me." Wubba: "A dream is nothing more than a wish dipped in chocolate and sprinkled with a little imagination." (From my poem, "A Dream") -Wubba
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (07/01/91)
In article <13641@uwm.edu> gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:
It's a windowing-speed thing. No, the NeXTStep isn't as fast as the
Amy's windowing system. The rest of the system is. But that's not
what's important, and it's not what's being discussed.
How fast is the Amiga windowing system when you are in the
million-pixel display mode with 2 bit color and 12 bit color?
There's more horsepower in a 68040 Amiga than a 68040 NeXT... :D
How much more? 25% more?
So is the Fusion Forty, which is why I'd like to see a comparison. :)
Seriously. The... uh-oh, brain blackout. Whatever they call their
Workbench/Finder thing, and the NeXTStep graphic interface in general,
isn't as fast as a 'miga, and isn't as fast as a Mac (I don't think.
I haven't had much use for my IIcx as of late, and don't want to mess
with it if I don't have to. :)
Well pull out that Macintoy and notice that when you drag the windows
around that you are only moving the outline of the window, not the
window itself.
-Mikegblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) (07/01/91)
From article <g#7H4*001@cs.psu.edu>, by melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger): > How fast is the Amiga windowing system when you are in the > million-pixel display mode with 2 bit color and 12 bit color? I wouldn't know. But to the average end user, which is all that's important, my WB seems faster than your... WB. I'm not talking about addons, or extra hardware. A 500 dollar amiga seems faster than the next at school, even if the reason perhaps lies behind the size of the screen... > How much more? 25% more? I dunno. Of course, that's why I asked for someone to compare. :) > Well pull out that Macintoy and notice that when you drag the windows > around that you are only moving the outline of the window, not the > window itself. > > -Mike Point taken, but the result is the same. Of course, when I speak of the mac being faster, that's on a IIcx. It might actually be slower on a 7.0 68000 system. Greg -- Socrates: "I drank WHAT????" LMFAP: "Next time you see me, it won't be me." Wubba: "A dream is nothing more than a wish dipped in chocolate and sprinkled with a little imagination." (From my poem, "A Dream") -Wubba
awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) (07/01/91)
In article <g#7H4*001@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >Well pull out that Macintoy and notice that when you drag the windows >around that you are only moving the outline of the window, not the >window itself. Well, I usually don't run window dragging with whole windows dragged instead of just the outline, but I can. I will admit that dragging solid windows is slower on my 16Mhz 030 Mac that the 25Mhz 040 machines you were talking about. Keep up the posts. I find them amusing as all get out.
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (07/01/91)
In article <51495@ut-emx.uucp> awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) writes:
Well, I usually don't run window dragging with whole windows dragged instead
of just the outline, but I can. I will admit that dragging solid windows is
slower on my 16Mhz 030 Mac that the 25Mhz 040 machines you were talking
about.
Try running FileMaker on your 16MHz 030. I had a ball when I was
asked to type in some data in it on a Mac II. The screen redraws were
so slow. I couldn't believe it. Mac weenies have a lot of nerve.
Keep up the posts. I find them amusing as all get out.
I hope your getting some educational value out of them too. :-)
-Mike
BTW, is it safe to assume that you would prefer to drag solid windows,
but you don't because your machine is too slow?peter@Sugar.NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) (07/01/91)
In article <1991Jun30.133047.1@cc.helsinki.fi> jalkio@cc.helsinki.fi writes: > Oh, well. I didn't mean it this way. I just referred to the old flamewar > here (where many people were complaining about the NeXTstep's > "sluggishness" when they compared the NeXT to A3000UX). You would have noticed I never made that claim. X/NeWS/NeXTstep/etc are all resource hogs, though NeWS and (to a lesser extent) NeXTstep have some potential to fix this, by putting more in a dedicated server. > the GENERAL [NeXT] user interface operation (i.e. without many big > apps running simultaneously) is as responsive as in just about any other > GUI I've ever tried... It's about par for modern UNIX GUIs. Some of the older, efficient, and unsexy ones were a lot better. > Well, the writer stated that he could buy a NeXTstation with 400MB hard > disk and some extra goodies (extented memory and co-Xist) for about the > same price than an A3000UX with 200MB hard disk and 8MB memory and no > bundled apps (except monochrome X). I suspect he was comparing NeXT educational prices to Amiga list. The NeXT educational deal is pretty impressive, but that's hardly a fair basis for a comparison. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>. 'U` "Have you hugged your wolf today?"
peter@Sugar.NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) (07/01/91)
In article <p=3H!#+!@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > This is simply not true. NeXTStep is quite responsive on a 16MB(<$600 > for an 16MB at the Chip Merchant). I thought that our long discussion > a few months back settled the misunderstanding that the NeXT is slow. No, it didn't settle anything. But that's par for the course. > There's more horsepower in the 68040 NeXT than a 68030 Amiga even with > the blitter. That's true. And it needs it a lot more. > Why wouldn't a NeXT be a great stand alone machine? Um, the shipped system isn't even big enough to hold the shipped software. > Could you clarify what you mean by "no expansion?" Where do I plug in my multiport serial card? My real-time stepper controller card? Extra display cards for multi-head operation? Video Toaster? 68050 card? > What more do you want? Color for your DTP packages? Buy a > NeXTstation color. Right. Expansion by buying new computers. > What have you added to you "expandable" Amiga 3000 lately? Nothing. But I added a total of 22 serial ports to an AT-bus UNIX box. Another one has dual network cards for simultaneous OSI and TCP/IP work as a gateway. Who knows what people will need to add to their machines after they buy them. I spent $2000 on my 3000. If I had to start out buying $4000 worth of hardware I couldn't have bought it. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>. 'U` "Have you hugged your wolf today?"
navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David C. Navas) (07/01/91)
In article <752H&t901@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: >BTW, is it safe to assume that you would prefer to drag solid windows, >but you don't because your machine is too slow? Only in greyscale modes. In color, the frame is adequate, in B&W, it isn't. Especially with a grey-dithered background. Personal Opinion. David Navas navas@cory.berkeley.edu 2.0 :: "You can't have your cake and eat it too." Also try c186br@holden, c260-ay@ara and c184-ap@torus
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (07/01/91)
In article <752H&t901@cs.psu.edu> melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes: > >In article <51495@ut-emx.uucp> awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) writes: > > Well, I usually don't run window dragging with whole windows dragged instead > of just the outline, but I can. I will admit that dragging solid windows is > slower on my 16Mhz 030 Mac that the 25Mhz 040 machines you were talking > about. > >Try running FileMaker on your 16MHz 030. I had a ball when I was >asked to type in some data in it on a Mac II. The screen redraws were >so slow. I couldn't believe it. Mac weenies have a lot of nerve. > > Keep up the posts. I find them amusing as all get out. > >I hope your getting some educational value out of them too. :-) > >-Mike > >BTW, is it safe to assume that you would prefer to drag solid windows, >but you don't because your machine is too slow? Nyah, nyah, I can run a program called NeXTWindows on my Amiga and drag windows (the whole window) faster than an 040 NeXT. In fact, it takes about a few assembler instructions to drag these windows around. Ahh, the benefits of dual-playfields. Bonus: My windows are transparent so you can seee through the windows being dragged. Nyah, nyah ;-p -- / INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ | INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| \ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * /
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (07/01/91)
In article <1991Jul1.023737.29018@Sugar.NeoSoft.com> peter@Sugar.NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > There's more horsepower in the 68040 NeXT than a 68030 Amiga even with > the blitter. That's true. And it needs it a lot more. For what? Video? Animation? Buy the NeXT Cube + NeXT Dimension. It's got plenty of horsepower. Take Interface Builder, for example. -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 832269 Nov 13 1990 InterfaceBuilder* A bit large, but it loads in about 4 seconds. OK, it doesn't all load in since it's a Unix system, but all is fair in computer wars. It is up and running and waiting for input in 4 seconds. > Why wouldn't a NeXT be a great stand alone machine? Um, the shipped system isn't even big enough to hold the shipped software. The 105MB system? Then buy the 200MB, 400M, or 600MB. Commodore doesn't ship an Interface Builder, Mathematica, etc., so they don't have this problem. You can boot the NeXT from a floppy. Corporations build networks of computers, having a >105MB local drive is usually unnecessary. Sun ships diskless clients. Can't put much on those. > Could you clarify what you mean by "no expansion?" Where do I plug in my multiport serial card? My real-time stepper controller card? Extra display cards for multi-head operation? Video Toaster? 68050 card? Do you really own a Toaster? I thought that was the product that every Amiga owner bragged about but very few actually owned. What is going to happen when NeXT upgrades to the 88K system is unknown. If you remember correctly they replaced the entire board in the Cube for $1500(retail Peter -- $1000 edu.). NeXT might just do the same with the NeXTstations. Right. Expansion by buying new computers. Technology is changing so fast, it's going to be damn hard to build an upgradable system that isn't obsolescent in two years. You think that most businesses can get buy on an XT? How well do you think they will do with a 15 mip NeXT? > What have you added to you "expandable" Amiga 3000 lately? Nothing. But I added a total of 22 serial ports to an AT-bus UNIX box. Another one has dual network cards for simultaneous OSI and TCP/IP work as a gateway. Who knows what people will need to add to their machines after they buy them. I spent $2000 on my 3000. If I had to start out buying $4000 worth of hardware I couldn't have bought it. Will you be able to just drop in 32 bit(bus) graphics chips when Commodore finally makes them? How about an 50-60 mip(maybe more) 88K(next year)? What did you add to your last Amiga? How long did you own it before you bought a new machine? -Mike