drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Donald Richard Tillery Jr) (04/09/91)
I figure someone else has already thought of this (great minds think alike ;-), but I'm wondering how feasable it would be to write handlers for all the 24 bit and pseudo-24 bit boards so that IBM (and other computer) emulators could use them to emulate SVGA (or equivalent on other platforms) cards. If the emulators used standard library calls and the appropriate library was used for the particular device (ColorBurst, FireCracker, Toaster, DCTV, HAM-E, Harlequin, etc.), wouldn't that give a reasonable emulation (speed not with- standing) of those graphics boards? Just a thought to bandy about for the bridgeboards, IBeM, AMAX, and other emulators. Rick Tillery (drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu)
xgr39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU (Marc Barrett) (04/09/91)
In article <1991Apr8.220628.26119@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu>, drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Donald Richard Tillery Jr) writes: >I figure someone else has already thought of this (great minds think alike ;-), >but I'm wondering how feasable it would be to write handlers for all the >24 bit and pseudo-24 bit boards so that IBM (and other computer) emulators >could use them to emulate SVGA (or equivalent on other platforms) cards. If >the emulators used standard library calls and the appropriate library was >used for the particular device (ColorBurst, FireCracker, Toaster, DCTV, HAM-E, >Harlequin, etc.), wouldn't that give a reasonable emulation (speed not with- >standing) of those graphics boards? Just a thought to bandy about for the >bridgeboards, IBeM, AMAX, and other emulators. Several months ago, I brought up the idea of enhancing the Janus software to allow the A2410 to emulate an SVGA card whenever the A2410 is used on an Amiga in conjunction with a BridgeBoard. This would allow the A2410 to be used for more than just UNIX. Unfortunately, I have know idea whether or not Commodore is working on this because they are obviously not talking. I do not think any of the other video products would be very satisfactory in emulating an SVGA card. The reason is that all of the graphics-enhancement boards available for the Amiga -- except for the A2410 -- flicker horribly. SVGA cards are not used for video work, so to emulate one requires a flicker-free display, with none of these video cards offer. > >Rick Tillery (drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu) -MB- ---------------------------------------------------------- / Marc Barrett | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / / ISU COM S Student | Internet: XGR39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU / ----------------------------------------------------------
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (04/10/91)
In article <1991Apr9.165826.21137@news.iastate.edu> xgr39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU writes: >In article <1991Apr8.220628.26119@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu>, drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Donald Richard Tillery Jr) writes: >>I figure someone else has already thought of this (great minds think alike ;-), >>but I'm wondering how feasable it would be to write handlers for all the >>24 bit and pseudo-24 bit boards so that IBM (and other computer) emulators OB>>could use them to emulate SVGA (or equivalent on other platforms) cards. If >>the emulators used standard library calls and the appropriate library was >>used for the particular device (ColorBurst, FireCracker, Toaster, DCTV, HAM-E, >>Harlequin, etc.), wouldn't that give a reasonable emulation (speed not with- >>standing) of those graphics boards? Just a thought to bandy about for the >>bridgeboards, IBeM, AMAX, and other emulators. > > Several months ago, I brought up the idea of enhancing the Janus >software to allow the A2410 to emulate an SVGA card whenever the A2410 >is used on an Amiga in conjunction with a BridgeBoard. This would >allow the A2410 to be used for more than just UNIX. Unfortunately, >I have know idea whether or not Commodore is working on this because >they are obviously not talking. Do you think Commodore would tell you even if they were? Especially you Marc, because you'd condemn any of their new projects even before they hit the market as being inadequate. Even if Commodore made some super duper 32 bit chipset, you'd fine something missing from it. 'Hey, I thought C= was supposed to include a Silicon Graphics emulator on the new custom chips. Commodore is doomed, blah...' > I do not think any of the other video products would be very >satisfactory in emulating an SVGA card. The reason is that all of the ^^^ big generalization wouldn't you say? >graphics-enhancement boards available for the Amiga -- except for the >A2410 -- flicker horribly. SVGA cards are not used for video work, >so to emulate one requires a flicker-free display, with none of these >video cards offer. If SVGA is not used to video work, than what's the point? What's the point of having mega amount of colors and resolution for CAD? Most of the graphic add on boards for the Amiga use standard Amiga screens and signals. I bet a HAM-E screen could be deinterlaced somehow. You'd hardly notice flicker when displaying real video on any of the Amiga's graphic enhancement cards, especially DCTV. If you want a nice mono display, get an ECS Denise or A2024. Seriously, I don't see a real use for SVGA unless your displaying still pictures in a mall. I would say virtual reality, but VR needs a fast poly rendering machine and good animation abilities like an IRIS. A True color display is nice because there aren't any palette limitations but as far as I know, VGA and SVGA are not true-color palette mapped. Anyone care to enlighten on what SVGA is used for besides a cute looking screen under windows, or nice gif pics. >> >>Rick Tillery (drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu) > > > -MB- > ---------------------------------------------------------- > / Marc Barrett | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / >/ ISU COM S Student | Internet: XGR39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU / >---------------------------------------------------------- I'd like to say, that the Amiga's use of NTSC style graphics are a great boon for video work. NTSC video modes are what makes video so cheap and flexible on the Amiga, but I'd like to see Commodore conform to HDTV in the future making the Amiga the ideal choice for HDTV work. Perhaps NewTek will even make an HDTV Toaster. (The toaster already has a horizontal resolution >1200, so all it really needs to do is produce HDTV signals instead of composite. Is the HDTV spec finalized now?) -- /~\_______________________________________________________________________/~\ |n| rjc@albert.ai.mit.edu Amiga, the computer for the creative mind. |n| |~| .-. .-. |~| |_|________________________________| |_| |________________________________|_|
cpmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matthew W Crowd) (04/10/91)
In article <1991Apr9.182934.10786@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >In article <1991Apr9.165826.21137@news.iastate.edu> xgr39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU writes: >>In article <1991Apr8.220628.26119@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu>, drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Donald Richard Tillery Jr) writes: >>>I figure someone else has already thought of this (great minds think alike ;-), >>>but I'm wondering how feasable it would be to write handlers for all the >>>24 bit and pseudo-24 bit boards so that IBM (and other computer) emulators >OB>>could use them to emulate SVGA (or equivalent on other platforms) cards. If >>>the emulators used standard library calls and the appropriate library was >>>used for the particular device (ColorBurst, FireCracker, Toaster, DCTV, HAM-E, >>>Harlequin, etc.), wouldn't that give a reasonable emulation (speed not with- >>>standing) of those graphics boards? Just a thought to bandy about for the >>>bridgeboards, IBeM, AMAX, and other emulators. >> >> Several months ago, I brought up the idea of enhancing the Janus >>software to allow the A2410 to emulate an SVGA card whenever the A2410 >>is used on an Amiga in conjunction with a BridgeBoard. This would >>allow the A2410 to be used for more than just UNIX. Unfortunately, >>I have know idea whether or not Commodore is working on this because >>they are obviously not talking. > > Do you think Commodore would tell you even if they were? Especially >you Marc, because you'd condemn any of their new projects even before >they hit the market as being inadequate. Even if Commodore made some >super duper 32 bit chipset, you'd fine something missing from it. >'Hey, I thought C= was supposed to include a Silicon Graphics emulator >on the new custom chips. Commodore is doomed, blah...' Why don't you lay off him, man. All his points are quite valid. If there wasn't one of us to speak up for all the problems C= cause, we would get nowhere. > >> I do not think any of the other video products would be very >>satisfactory in emulating an SVGA card. The reason is that all of the > ^^^ >big generalization wouldn't you say? >>graphics-enhancement boards available for the Amiga -- except for the >>A2410 -- flicker horribly. SVGA cards are not used for video work, >>so to emulate one requires a flicker-free display, with none of these >>video cards offer. > > If SVGA is not used to video work, than what's the point? What's the Ever seen a 1280x1024 NON-Interlaced Lotus-1-2-3 Spreadsheet ? I thought not. >>> >>>Rick Tillery (drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu) >> >> -MB- >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> / Marc Barrett | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / >>/ ISU COM S Student | Internet: XGR39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU / >>---------------------------------------------------------- > >-- >/~\_______________________________________________________________________/~\ >|n| rjc@albert.ai.mit.edu Amiga, the computer for the creative mind. |n| >|~| .-. .-. |~| >|_|________________________________| |_| |________________________________|_| matt (even with a deinterlacer i still have flicker) crowd.
drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Donald Richard Tillery Jr) (04/10/91)
> Several months ago, I brought up the idea of enhancing the Janus >software to allow the A2410 to emulate an SVGA card whenever the A2410 >is used on an Amiga in conjunction with a BridgeBoard. This would >allow the A2410 to be used for more than just UNIX. Unfortunately, >I have know idea whether or not Commodore is working on this because >they are obviously not talking. Not a bad idea. This is similar to what I have in mind. My real suggestion is that the required calls be generic in form so that each vendor could write their own library to support them for their particular board. > I do not think any of the other video products would be very >satisfactory in emulating an SVGA card. The reason is that all of the >graphics-enhancement boards available for the Amiga -- except for the >A2410 -- flicker horribly. SVGA cards are not used for video work, >so to emulate one requires a flicker-free display, with none of these >video cards offer. The Harlequin board also offers flicker-free video, FYI. However, if I was interested in perfect SVGA, I would get one for use with a bridgeboard. In the interest of _EMULATION_ however, the cost of utilizing a 24 bit board that I will already have is much more palettable. If I wanted speed, I would also forego emulation in lieu of an actual IBM. The same may be said for flicker. I will put up with such flicker in the interest of emulation and I think that those who would put up with slow emulation would feel the same...just an assumption based on those folks locally who run their own emulators. Rick Tillery (drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu)
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (04/10/91)
In article <1991Apr9.232059.9004@marlin.jcu.edu.au> cpmwc@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Matthew W Crowd) writes: >In article <1991Apr9.182934.10786@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >>In article <1991Apr9.165826.21137@news.iastate.edu> xgr39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU writes: >>>In article <1991Apr8.220628.26119@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu>, drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Donald Richard Tillery Jr) writes: >>>>I figure someone else has already thought of this (great minds think alike ;-), >>>>but I'm wondering how feasable it would be to write handlers for all the >>>>24 bit and pseudo-24 bit boards so that IBM (and other computer) emulators >>OB>>could use them to emulate SVGA (or equivalent on other platforms) cards. If >>>>the emulators used standard library calls and the appropriate library was >>>>used for the particular device (ColorBurst, FireCracker, Toaster, DCTV, HAM-E, >>>>Harlequin, etc.), wouldn't that give a reasonable emulation (speed not with- >>>>standing) of those graphics boards? Just a thought to bandy about for the >>>>bridgeboards, IBeM, AMAX, and other emulators. >>> >>> Several months ago, I brought up the idea of enhancing the Janus >>>software to allow the A2410 to emulate an SVGA card whenever the A2410 >>>is used on an Amiga in conjunction with a BridgeBoard. This would >>>allow the A2410 to be used for more than just UNIX. Unfortunately, >>>I have know idea whether or not Commodore is working on this because >>>they are obviously not talking. >> >> Do you think Commodore would tell you even if they were? Especially >>you Marc, because you'd condemn any of their new projects even before >>they hit the market as being inadequate. Even if Commodore made some >>super duper 32 bit chipset, you'd fine something missing from it. >>'Hey, I thought C= was supposed to include a Silicon Graphics emulator >>on the new custom chips. Commodore is doomed, blah...' > >Why don't you lay off him, man. > >All his points are quite valid. If there wasn't one of us to speak up >for all the problems C= cause, we would get nowhere. Why? Because everytime Marc posts it always has something to do with a lack of something in the Amiga or Commodore. It's like he has nothing better to do than to bash Commodore. And making blanket statements about all Amiga graphics enhancements (besides 2410)flickering is ludicrous. Take the FireCracker/24, which from my limitied knowledge displays True Color 24bit palette mapped images in non-interlace with resolutions exceding super VGA. >> >>> I do not think any of the other video products would be very >>>satisfactory in emulating an SVGA card. The reason is that all of the >> ^^^ >>big generalization wouldn't you say? >>>graphics-enhancement boards available for the Amiga -- except for the >>>A2410 -- flicker horribly. SVGA cards are not used for video work, >>>so to emulate one requires a flicker-free display, with none of these >>>video cards offer. >> >> If SVGA is not used to video work, than what's the point? What's the > >Ever seen a 1280x1024 NON-Interlaced Lotus-1-2-3 Spreadsheet ? I thought not. But why does it need so many colors? A megapixel monochrome display is sufficient for a spreadsheet. >>>> >>>>Rick Tillery (drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu) >>> >>> -MB- >>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>> / Marc Barrett | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / >>>/ ISU COM S Student | Internet: XGR39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU / >>>---------------------------------------------------------- >> >>-- >>/~\_______________________________________________________________________/~\ >>|n| rjc@albert.ai.mit.edu Amiga, the computer for the creative mind. |n| >>|~| .-. .-. |~| >>|_|________________________________| |_| |________________________________|_| > >matt (even with a deinterlacer i still have flicker) crowd. You must not have it turned on, or you have a defective flickerfixer/monitor. If your talking about the 1/2 line at the top of a maximum overscan screen I wouldn't consider that a horrible problem, especially if you have a monitor with an adjustable screen size. I don't have an A3000, but the flicker fixed modes (and the deinterlaced) I have seen are totally without flicker. I don't even have a flickerfixer and interlace doesn't bother me. -- /~\_______________________________________________________________________/~\ |n| rjc@albert.ai.mit.edu Amiga, the computer for the creative mind. |n| |~| .-. .-. |~| |_|________________________________| |_| |________________________________|_|
drysdale@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Drysdale) (04/11/91)
In article <1991Apr9.165826.21137@news.iastate.edu> xgr39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU writes: >In article <1991Apr8.220628.26119@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu>, drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Donald Richard Tillery Jr) writes: >>I figure someone else has already thought of this (great minds think alike ;-), >>but I'm wondering how feasable it would be to write handlers for all the >>24 bit and pseudo-24 bit boards so that IBM (and other computer) emulators >>could use them to emulate SVGA (or equivalent on other platforms) cards. If >>the emulators used standard library calls and the appropriate library was >>used for the particular device (ColorBurst, FireCracker, Toaster, DCTV, HAM-E, >>Harlequin, etc.), wouldn't that give a reasonable emulation (speed not with- >>standing) of those graphics boards? Just a thought to bandy about for the >>bridgeboards, IBeM, AMAX, and other emulators. > > Several months ago, I brought up the idea of enhancing the Janus >software to allow the A2410 to emulate an SVGA card whenever the A2410 >is used on an Amiga in conjunction with a BridgeBoard. This would >allow the A2410 to be used for more than just UNIX. Unfortunately, >I have know idea whether or not Commodore is working on this because >they are obviously not talking. i seriously doubt that i'll even think about doing that. can you say "slow?" i knew you could. besides, there isn't enough dual port RAM on the bridgeboard to hold a VGA screen, and we don't have the register hardware required for VGA compatibility. if we had the last two, we could be doing pseudo VGA emulation on the amiga screen today. >>Rick Tillery (drtiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu) > / Marc Barrett | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / --Scotty -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Scott Drysdale Software Engineer Commodore Amiga Inc. UUCP {allegra|burdvax|rutgers|ihnp4}!cbmvax!drysdale PHONE - yes. "Have you hugged your hog today?" =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=