cedman@golem.ps.uci.edu (Carl Edman) (02/15/91)
In article <91045.113010WGLP09@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> WGLP09@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:
Instead of just hoping that "those programs get better keyboard
support" why not tell us what doesn't work? VLT, for example, supports
complete dead-keying. What else is there? Of course, you may have a
*different* problem, like leaving VLT's strip 8th bit option on. Or
maybe you just didn't try later versions.
I am using VLT since a quite early version and am quite happy with it,
overall. Still I've a few suggestions to make:
1. Throw out all internal transfer protocolls and give slightly easier
access to external ones (the new menu for external protocolls in VLT
5.034 is a step in the right direction). Using internal and external
protocolls is not only inelegant but also costs memory and diskspace.
2. Add a simple command to simply send a short ascii file. While using
XPRascii for this works, I think there ought to be a simpler way.
3. There is a dangerous bug (or feature if you so wish) in saving the
highlighted region of the review window. Using "Save as" you get the
option to append/overwrite/a.s.o. if the file already exists. Use "save
and the old file gets overwritten without comment. I found this out
yesterday the hard way. save should offer the same option, or even
preferably do the same thing as last time.
4. I've never noticed any keymap support in VLT. You can define key
macros, but only for a few key/modifier combinations. What I'd really
like to see is a saveable option which selects a keymap to use within
VLT. Please don't tell me about 'setmap'. I'd like to have a
particular keymap _only_ for VLT. If that existed you could use all
the keymap editors to create far more complex keyboard macros and you
could throw out the macros from VLT, further shrinking VLT.
Carl Edman
"We hold that what one man cannot morally do, a million men cannot
morally do, and government, representing many millions of men, cannot
do." -- Auberon Herbert
Send mail to Carl Edman <cedman@golem.ps.uci.edu>WGLP09@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (02/15/91)
Carl -
1. All protocols in VLT *are* external, have been since 4.824. The fact that
there are still menu options for Kermit and XMODEM setups separately
doesn't mean that it doesn't use the external protocols. Take away the
corrsponding XPR libraries and it will complain. Kermit and XMODEM are
treated separately because that is what people here at SLAC are familiar
with.
2. There *is* a simple ascii send command: it is the ARexx script
SendASCII.vlt, which can easily be made into a menu option in the
user menu so it has a keyboard abbreviation. It does all the XPR
switching for you and even sets it back to the protocol you used before.
3. That Save in the review buffer overwrites the previous file is a feature.
If you don't want it to do that, don't select it...
4. A lot of keys in VLT are programmable. For special occasions you can use
the WEDGE command to intercept all keystrokes. The Intercept.vlt script
gives you an example of how this works, and the marginbell.vlt and
autowrap.vlt execs give you some examples to play with. If the ARexx
versions are too slow for your taste, you can write faster versions
in C. You can even use WEDGE to block all keystrokes and use Fifo
pipes to write a filter.
Willy.
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Willy langeveld - Bitnet: WGLP09 @ SLACVM - BIX: langeveldcedman@golem.ps.uci.edu (Carl Edman) (02/15/91)
In article <91045.172115WGLP09@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> WGLP09@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:
1. All protocols in VLT *are* external, have been since 4.824. The fact that
there are still menu options for Kermit and XMODEM setups separately
doesn't mean that it doesn't use the external protocols. Take away the
corrsponding XPR libraries and it will complain. Kermit and XMODEM are
treated separately because that is what people here at SLAC are familiar
with.
I see. But you have to admit that the way the protocolls are listed in
the menu ("Xmodem" "Kermit" "--External:------" "ZModem" a.s.o) is somewhat
misleading in this case :-).
2. There *is* a simple ascii send command: it is the ARexx script
SendASCII.vlt, which can easily be made into a menu option in the
user menu so it has a keyboard abbreviation. It does all the XPR
switching for you and even sets it back to the protocol you used before.
For one thing this requires REXX which not everybody has, and for
another I think that such an extremely basic thing should be doable by
the terminal program itself without messing with transfer protocolls
a.s.o. just to send a local two line text file into your remote editor
buffer.
3. That Save in the review buffer overwrites the previous file is a feature.
If you don't want it to do that, don't select it...
Yes, I won't do it again. :-) Still I think it would be a good idea to
have "save" default to the overwrite/append behavior of the last
"save_as".
4. A lot of keys in VLT are programmable. For special occasions you can use
the WEDGE command to intercept all keystrokes. The Intercept.vlt script
gives you an example of how this works, and the marginbell.vlt and
autowrap.vlt execs give you some examples to play with. If the ARexx
versions are too slow for your taste, you can write faster versions
in C. You can even use WEDGE to block all keystrokes and use Fifo
pipes to write a filter.
Yes, that was the first thing I tried when this capability was added
to VLT, but it really is awfully slow , at least for a fast typist on
an old A1000. It is a while since I last wrote a larger program for
the amiga, but unless I am mistaken most OS calls for windows I/O
a.s.o. allow you to specify the keymap to use. A simple gadget similar
to that which is used to select the font today, is all it would take.
I think that at least a bit of the VT100 terminal "smarts" could be
moved to the keymap then making VLT both smaller _and_ more
customizable. Things like e.g. redefining the arrow keys to send "^N",
"^P" a.s.o. which can be a great blessing in many editors/ line
disciplines a.s.o. would become possible without slowing down the
system to a crawl.
But thanks for an excellent,free and (IMHO) best terminal program for
the amiga.
Carl Edman
"We hold that what one man cannot morally do, a million men cannot
morally do, and government, representing many millions of men, cannot
do." -- Auberon Herbert
Send mail to Carl Edman <cedman@golem.ps.uci.edu>cedman@golem.ps.uci.edu (Carl Edman) (02/15/91)
Just two more details to add:
Implementing the use of keymaps would also make the quite a few
options in the "Operations"-Menu (like e.g. "Numeric Keypad", "Swap
BS<->Del", "Help Key = LF", "Shift-TAB = ESC TAB", "CR Key: Send
CR/LF" a.s.o.) unnecessary.
Also a small bug (or lack of a feature ?):
When switching the number of lines/columns/font/size a.s.o. the screen
is repainted with the new font/size, but somehow VLT forgets if some
characters were inverted.
Carl Edman
"We hold that what one man cannot morally do, a million men cannot
morally do, and government, representing many millions of men, cannot
do." -- Auberon Herbert
Send mail to Carl Edman <cedman@golem.ps.uci.edu>cs326ag@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Loren J. Rittle) (02/15/91)
> For one thing this requires REXX which not everybody has, and for > another I think that such an extremely basic thing should be doable by > the terminal program itself without messing with transfer protocolls > a.s.o. just to send a local two line text file into your remote editor > buffer. You're quite wrong on this point of course! The view that applications should `know' how to do everything is a very MSDOS way to look at things. Side points: REXX is cheap, Willy's time is not. REXX macros can be hand tailored by *you*, this is a very powerful, side point, BTW... If you don't have REXX, you're missing out! Loren J. Rittle -- ``NewTek stated that the Toaster *would not* be made to directly support the Mac, at this point Sculley stormed out of the booth...'' -A scene at the recent MacExpo. Gee, you wouldn't think that an Apple Exec would be so worried about one little Amiga Device... Loren J. Rittle l-rittle@uiuc.edu
cedman@golem.ps.uci.edu (Carl Edman) (02/15/91)
In article <1991Feb15.050639.15863@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> cs326ag@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Loren J. Rittle) writes: > For one thing this requires REXX which not everybody has, and for > another I think that such an extremely basic thing should be doable by > the terminal program itself without messing with transfer protocolls > a.s.o. just to send a local two line text file into your remote editor > buffer. You're quite wrong on this point of course! The view that applications should `know' how to do everything is a very MSDOS way to look at things. Side points: REXX is cheap, Willy's time is not. REXX macros can be hand tailored by *you*, this is a very powerful, side point, BTW... If you don't have REXX, you're missing out! Oh, my ! First, of all to slightly remove the smear of having me and MSDOS mentioned in the same sentence. I _do_ have rexx ! I already had rexx when nobody else had it ! :-) Second, I think my other suggestion about keymaps was exactly in the UNIX direction of having many tools each of which knows how to do one thing very well and cooperates with all other tools. Hence macros should be in separate keymaps editable by keymap editors. Third, I still do think that each application should know how to do 'its' things very well. Part of this for terminal programs is being able to send short text files directly to the display as if typed. Just like a unix shell knows about 'echo' or 'if' internally. Carl Edman "We hold that what one man cannot morally do, a million men cannot morally do, and government, representing many millions of men, cannot do." -- Auberon Herbert Send mail to Carl Edman <cedman@golem.ps.uci.edu>
papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) (02/15/91)
In article <CEDMAN.91Feb14123940@lynx.ps.uci.edu> cedman@golem.ps.uci.edu (Carl Edman) writes: >4. I've never noticed any keymap support in VLT. You can define key >macros, but only for a few key/modifier combinations. What I'd really >like to see is a saveable option which selects a keymap to use within >VLT. Please don't tell me about 'setmap'. I'd like to have a >particular keymap _only_ for VLT. That's very easy to do: setmap <keymap for VLT> run VLT <------ delay setmap <old keymap> The trick is to put an appropriate delay where indicated to make sure that VLT is running. This is easily done with an Arexx macro that does a 'WaitforPort' for VLT's arexx port. Enjoy. -- Marco -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "Xerox sues somebody for copying?" -- David Letterman -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
davids@utstat.uucp (David Scollnik) (02/15/91)
Another VLT query / suggestion ... I am aware that one may save highlighted portions of the VLT Review buffer to a file ... is there some way I can read a text file INTO the buffer, so as to simplify the cut and paste procedure when I want to transfer parts of a text file to the remote system ?? -- David P.M. Scollnik | UUCP: utstat!davids University of Toronto | bitnet: davids@utstat.utoronto Deptartment of Statistics | arpa: davids@utstat.toronto.edu
zofka@cernvax.cern.ch (milan zofka) (02/16/91)
And what do you thing about adding Sockets calls to have a TCP/IP
Telnet with VLT emulation and rlogin capability ??
I may help the guy how will spend time on this.
For example: vlt -t machine.domain.country for telnet mode
vlt -r machine.domain.country for rlogin mode
after that (and if VLT is good written) you have to add
the connexion (one socket). read() and write() are now valid
with sockets file descriptors.
Milan ZOFKAWGLP09@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (02/16/91)
Carl -
3. Well, maybe I'll take the "Save" does what you last told SaveAs under
consideration. It may be too "indeterminate". How do you remember what
you last told SaveAs? You as in You, not VLT.
4. Well, maybe there's something to be said for the keymap thingy. I have
never played with keymaps, maybe that would be a fun project some day...
BTW: how do you edit a keymap?
Willy.
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Willy langeveld - Bitnet: WGLP09 @ SLACVM - BIX: langeveldWGLP09@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (02/16/91)
Carl -
That VLT forgets the character attributes is known and documented,
i.e. a feature. 8) It just takes too much memory to remember all that:
you need to remember foreground and background color and the other
attributes. You'd need a longword for each character in the review
buffer, or a memory use increase of a factor of 4 for the review buffer.
I decided early on against this.
Willy.
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Willy langeveld - Bitnet: WGLP09 @ SLACVM - BIX: langeveldWGLP09@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (02/16/91)
Milan -
Ah! how are things at CERN? Haven't been there in five years!
Anyway: TCP/IP and even TN3270 support for VLT is being thought about.
However, it is unlikely (and undesirable in fact) to build this into
VLT. I am thinking about writing a fake serial device that calls the sockets
for "TelNet" operation (maybe telnetser.device), and another one that has
the TN3270 protocol conversion built right in (tn3270.device?).
This would make it work with *all* terminal programs, not just
VLT. Of course, if someone else would like to do this... 8) It seems like
it is a fairly large project, though I have some of the necessary stuff
collected (3270 manual, TN3270 and Telnet distribution for UNIX, etc.).
Willy.
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Willy langeveld - Bitnet: WGLP09 @ SLACVM - BIX: langeveldcedman@golem.ps.uci.edu (Carl Edman) (02/16/91)
In article <91046.114339WGLP09@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> WGLP09@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:
Carl -
3. Well, maybe I'll take the "Save" does what you last told SaveAs under
consideration. It may be too "indeterminate". How do you remember what
you last told SaveAs? You as in You, not VLT.
Well, as VLT remembers a file name for saving which is associated with
the review buffer anyway, maybe you could display that file name in
the title bar of the review window along with overwrite/append mode ?
4. Well, maybe there's something to be said for the keymap thingy. I have
never played with keymaps, maybe that would be a fun project some day...
BTW: how do you edit a keymap?
Yes, keymaps are really fun and one of the underutilized nice features
of the Amiga OS. There are several nice PD keymap editors. The one I
keep in my utility directory is KeyMapEd. I also think one comes
along with the OS distribution, but I could be mistaken on that account.
Carl Edman
"We hold that what one man cannot morally do, a million men cannot
morally do, and government, representing many millions of men, cannot
do." -- Auberon Herbert
Send mail to Carl Edman <cedman@golem.ps.uci.edu>cedman@golem.ps.uci.edu (Carl Edman) (03/09/91)
Just a few more VLT suggestions:
1. Please allow all keys to be redefined. The current limits prevents you
from doing useful things like e.g.
- putting ^N,^P,^F,^B on your cursor keys and get some line
disciplines to work
- Use the alt key as a meta key in emacs by redefining
alt-<any key> to mean ESC followed by <any key>
Of course the ideal solution would still be the usage of external
keymaps.
2. Is it possible to add a switch to VLT to allow an insert mode under
VT100 ? I know that a real VT100 does not have this, but some machines
just wont believe that.
3. Is the fact that you cannot download via xprzmodem and rz under
some (all ?) flavours of unix a bug in
a) rz
b) xprzmodem
c) the unix flavour
d) VLT ?
Thanks for any and all implementations or answers,
Carl Edman
"We hold that what one man cannot morally do, a million men cannot
morally do, and government, representing many millions of men, cannot
do." -- Auberon Herbert
Send mail to Carl Edman <cedman@golem.ps.uci.edu>WGLP09@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (03/12/91)
1. I'm checking into adding custom keymap support. Maybe...
2. I don't understand what you mean by "insert" mode. VLT supports
"inserts" as far as I know.
3. I don't know who's at fault. but since you're talking about RZ, you
must be talking about uploads, not downloads. Up = towards remote,
down = towards you. RZ is for receiving on the host, so it must be
an upload. Now that we're talking in the same terms, I still don't
know why it shouldn't work... 8) But in any case, xprzmodem is
Rick Huebner's baby...
Willy.
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Willy Langeveld - Bitnet: WGLP09 @ SLACVM - BIX: langeveld