pashdown@javelin.es.com (Pete Ashdown) (03/08/91)
dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon) writes: > ARP is *BROKEN*. It has *so* many bugs that it is impossible to > get around them. DO NOT USE ARP. At the very least, do not use > ARPs Execute replacement or Execute() patch (and if ARP has a C:RUN > replacement, *don't* use that either!) Uh, excuse me? Matt is sort of like an E.F. Hutton of the Amiga. When Matt says something like this, it tends to make me worry. Should I be chucking ARP off my hard drive and resorting back to official Commodore commands? -- "This special edition of The Gulf War will continue after these messages." -ABC Pete Ashdown pashdown@javelin.sim.es.com ...uunet!javelin.sim.es.com!pashdown
dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon) (03/09/91)
In article <1991Mar7.201652.27356@javelin.es.com> pashdown@javelin.es.com (Pete Ashdown) writes: >dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon) writes: > >> ARP is *BROKEN*. It has *so* many bugs that it is impossible to >> get around them. DO NOT USE ARP. At the very least, do not use >> ARPs Execute replacement or Execute() patch (and if ARP has a C:RUN >> replacement, *don't* use that either!) > >Uh, excuse me? Matt is sort of like an E.F. Hutton of the Amiga. When Matt >says something like this, it tends to make me worry. Should I be chucking >ARP off my hard drive and resorting back to official Commodore commands? >-- The main problem appears to be with ARP's C:RUN and, apparently it has an Execute() patch which is also broken. While I like the idea of ARP as a whole, it has only caused me problems in the past, and perhaps a quarter of all the bug reports I get from people relating to various projects (AmigaUUCP, DICE) are due to their running ARP and incompatibilities due to that. I also have noticed that my Amiga is quite a bit MORE reliable if I do not use *any* ARP commands, and that is important to me. So, that's my personal experience. -Matt -- Matthew Dillon dillon@Overload.Berkeley.CA.US 891 Regal Rd. uunet.uu.net!overload!dillon Berkeley, Ca. 94708 USA
peter@cutmcvax.cs.curtin.edu.au (Peter Wemm) (03/10/91)
pashdown@javelin.es.com (Pete Ashdown) writes: >dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon) writes: >> ARP is *BROKEN*. It has *so* many bugs that it is impossible to >> get around them. DO NOT USE ARP. At the very least, do not use >> ARPs Execute replacement or Execute() patch (and if ARP has a C:RUN >> replacement, *don't* use that either!) >Uh, excuse me? Matt is sort of like an E.F. Hutton of the Amiga. When Matt >says something like this, it tends to make me worry. Should I be chucking >ARP off my hard drive and resorting back to official Commodore commands? >-- > "This special edition of The Gulf War will continue after these messages." > -ABC >Pete Ashdown pashdown@javelin.sim.es.com ...uunet!javelin.sim.es.com!pashdown If my memory serves me correctly, SKsh uses arp as it's command executor, and Matt's shell has a popular version which uses arp... Sure, it has bugs, but I wouldn't go as far as saying "unusable" or "don't use it" The only problems I have had with arp is that the assign command sometimes won't assign (on 1 meg chip, no fast machines) and a couple of commands behave differently in scripts with weird redirection. The big problem is that the command launcher parts (ASyncRun, arun, etc) wont work under 2.0 (ever seen FIREWORKS_DISPLAY_MODE ?) because the dos process structure is different.. It is interesting to note that almost **EVERYTHING** in arp is now in 2.0 somewhere.. The requesters and pattern matching are in dos and asl.library, SybcRun and ASyncRun have close equivalents in 2.0 dos, all the packet routines, device node handlers, etc etc.. are in dos 2.0, the 32 bit multiply and divide are in utility.library (I think..) The only thing that is missing (that I know about..) is the arp CloseWindowSafely() routine. The GADS argument parser is (sort of..) in dos 2.0. There are so many similar or identical routines in 2.0 that I half wrote an arp emulator library that took arp.libraries place and transferred the calls to the new routines. In half an hour I had half of arp re-implemented under 2.0 but my sea-crate hard drive had a severe head crash a few days later.... My advice is: If it works for you then use it! Don't ditch it because somebody else doesn't like it. I think you would find 1.3 cli commands and shell a shock to the system after using the arp equivalents. -- Peter Wemm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ peter@cutmcvax.cs.curtin.edu.au (if fails, try peter@cutmcvax.oz.au)
micke@slaka.sirius.se (Mikael Karlsson) (03/12/91)
In article <dillon.4875@overload.Berkeley.CA.US> dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon) writes: >In article <1991Mar7.201652.27356@javelin.es.com> pashdown@javelin.es.com (Pete Ashdown) writes: >>dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon) writes: >> >>> ARP is *BROKEN*. It has *so* many bugs that it is impossible to >>>[..] >> >>Uh, excuse me? Matt is sort of like an E.F. Hutton of the Amiga. When Matt >>[..] > >[..] > > While I like the idea of ARP as a whole, it has only caused me problems > in the past, and perhaps a quarter of all the bug reports I get from > people relating to various projects (AmigaUUCP, DICE) are due to their > running ARP and incompatibilities due to that. I also have noticed > that my Amiga is quite a bit MORE reliable if I do not use *any* ARP > commands, and that is important to me. > > So, that's my personal experience. But the ARP commands have one great advantage. Wildcard expansions are sorted. That makes it very easy for me to join files part01..partNN in the correct order by simply giving the command: JOIN FILE?? AS BIGFILE How do I do that with standard AmigaDOS commands? How about: LIST FILE?? LFORMAT "JOIN %s AS BIGFILE" | SO.. Oops, no pipes. I'll try again: LIST >t:tempfile FILE?? LFORMAT "JOIN %s AS BIGFILE" SORT t:tempfile t:tempfile2 EXECUTE t:tempfile2 DELETE t:tempfile DELETE t:tempfile2 I also like that I can do: RENAME *.c as old*.c > -Matt /Mikael -- \_/ Mikael Karlsson, Lovsattersvagen 10, S-585 98 LINKOPING, SWEDEN V | micke@slaka.sirius.se | Absolut Software | micke@slaka.UUCP ~~~ | {mcvax,seismo}!sunic!liuida!slaka!micke
barrett@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Dan Barrett) (03/13/91)
In article <peter.668567930@cutmcvax.cs.curtin.edu.au> peter@cutmcvax.cs.curtin.edu.au (Peter Wemm) writes: >It is interesting to note that almost **EVERYTHING** in arp is now in 2.0 >somewhere. Except for command-line unnamed pipes, like: $ info | sort | more This is the only reason I am still using the ARP Shell rather than the CBM shell. If I had to choose one more feature for the CBM shell, this would be it. Even MS-DOG has this syntax (yes, I know that it doesn't implement real pipes). >My advice is: If it works for you then use it! Don't ditch it because >somebody else doesn't like it. I haven't noticed any problems with using ARP 1.3, and I've used it daily for well over a year. But I don't do much script writing. Dan //////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ | Dan Barrett, Department of Computer Science Johns Hopkins University | | INTERNET: barrett@cs.jhu.edu | | | COMPUSERVE: >internet:barrett@cs.jhu.edu | UUCP: barrett@jhunix.UUCP | \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////////////////////
markv@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (03/13/91)
In article <7750@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU>, barrett@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Dan Barrett) writes: >In article <peter.668567930@cutmcvax.cs.curtin.edu.au> peter@cutmcvax.cs.curtin.edu.au (Peter Wemm) writes: >>It is interesting to note that almost **EVERYTHING** in arp is now in 2.0 >>somewhere. > > Except for command-line unnamed pipes, like: > > $ info | sort | more > > This is the only reason I am still using the ARP Shell rather than the > CBM shell. If I had to choose one more feature for the CBM shell, this > would be it. Even MS-DOG has this syntax (yes, I know that it doesn't > implement real pipes). I've pretty well tossed ARP, but I keep RENAME around (rename without real wildcards is about as useful as a leaky boat in a hurricane). >>My advice is: If it works for you then use it! Don't ditch it because >>somebody else doesn't like it. Agreed, I never noticed specific problems with ARP, but I had a lot of otherwise untracable errors go away when I got rid of it. I don't really blame this on ARP. The BCPLish world of pre-2.0 CLI DOS is quirky enough to give anyone fits. > I haven't noticed any problems with using ARP 1.3, and I've used it > daily for well over a year. But I don't do much script writing. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mark Gooderum Only... \ Good Cheer !!! Academic Computing Services /// \___________________________ University of Kansas /// /| __ _ Bix: mgooderum \\\ /// /__| |\/| | | _ /_\ makes it Bitnet: MARKV@UKANVAX \/\/ / | | | | |__| / \ possible... Internet: markv@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ben@epmooch.UUCP (Rev. Ben A. Mesander) (03/15/91)
>In article <2147@public.BTR.COM> thad@public.BTR.COM (Thaddeus P. Floryan) writes: [...] >Hmmm, wondering about all the recent flak over HandShake 2.20c, I recovered >it from floppy (after doing "CLI> delete hand#?" earlier), and noticed that >it (using the ARTM monitor ... great program, by the way) was the ONLY thing >on my system bringing in the ARP library. And HandShake 2.20c is the ONLY >thing on my system(s) that causes a guru without undue provocation. > >Are we "on" to something here? Just curious. I don't really think so... I normally run my Amiga without rebooting, and it lasts about a week at a time. I run ARP, GCC, SAS/C, and AmigaUUCP 1.06D all the time. I have identified three things that cause me to reboot: Handshake 2.12 when I try to 7-bit kermit to a host that uses mark parity, VT100 'hanging' when the CPU is busy during a kermit transfer, and the SoundTracker/NoiseTracker module players that fragment chip ram ferociously. If I could find a good reliable term program with a decent kermit and Zmodem as good as JRComm's that wouldn't crash, I'd be a long way towards making my system more reliable. Right now I use VLT, JRComm, VT100, and HandShake 2.12, because none of them do everything that I need reliably. I have also yet to find a ST/NT module player that will work without hosing my system occasionally. They all seem to be written in 68000 assembler by people who like to beat on the hardware. But no, I use ARP extensively; I have automated most of the routine maintenance of my system with scripts that use ARP features (things like $() replacement, extended regular expressions, and unnamed pipes), and did not notice a degradation in reliability. I'd really like to iron out the bugs with terminal programs and music players, so I would have a completely reliable system. I am sick of programs that: 1) 'Hang' for no apparent reason. 2) GURU without being tortured. 3) Fragment chip memory to the point where the largest available chunk is 16 bytes, normally shortly followed by a graphics.library GURU due to lack of "emergency memory". The ARP shell doesn't seem to give me the problems that other people describe. For instance, I've heard many people complain that the Lattice and SAS/C installation scripts break under ASH. Every update, and the original script, has worked just fine for me. I don't have any idea what I've installed differently with my ASH. I do use CONMAN for a pipe handler. >Thad Floryan [ thad@btr.com (OR) {decwrl, mips, fernwood}!btr!thad ] Thad: I *loathe* Seagate also. Keep up the good publicity :-) -- | ben@epmooch.UUCP (Ben Mesander) | "Cash is more important than | | ben%servalan.UUCP@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu | your mother." - Al Shugart, | | !chinet!uokmax!servalan!epmooch!ben | CEO, Seagate Technologies |
thad@public.BTR.COM (Thaddeus P. Floryan) (03/15/91)
In article <dillon.4875@overload.Berkeley.CA.US> dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon) writes: > [...] > While I like the idea of ARP as a whole, it has only caused me problems > in the past, and perhaps a quarter of all the bug reports I get from > people relating to various projects (AmigaUUCP, DICE) are due to their > running ARP and incompatibilities due to that. I also have noticed > that my Amiga is quite a bit MORE reliable if I do not use *any* ARP > commands, and that is important to me. > [...] And that is important to me, too. Hmmm, wondering about all the recent flak over HandShake 2.20c, I recovered it from floppy (after doing "CLI> delete hand#?" earlier), and noticed that it (using the ARTM monitor ... great program, by the way) was the ONLY thing on my system bringing in the ARP library. And HandShake 2.20c is the ONLY thing on my system(s) that causes a guru without undue provocation. Are we "on" to something here? Just curious. Thad Floryan [ thad@btr.com (OR) {decwrl, mips, fernwood}!btr!thad ]
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (03/15/91)
In article <micke.5280@slaka.sirius.se> micke@slaka.sirius.se (Mikael Karlsson) writes: > >But the ARP commands have one great advantage. Wildcard expansions are >sorted. That makes it very easy for me to join files part01..partNN in >the correct order by simply giving the command: > >JOIN FILE?? AS BIGFILE > >How do I do that with standard AmigaDOS commands? How about: Well, to do it a simple way, you need 2.0, but then it may go like this: TYPE >BIGFILE FILE?? -- Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
ben@epmooch.UUCP (Rev. Ben A. Mesander) (03/17/91)
>In article <1991Mar17.214701.5045@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> griffin@frith.egr.msu.edu (Danny Griffin) writes: [...] >I also use ARP (except a few commands like their run) and love it. I seldom >reboot my computer, and have only found one thing that will crash it reliably. >-- flipping between screens when two of them are interlaced. I can flip >between shells and numerous multitasking programs quickly all day long, but >the minute two of them are interlaced (like PageStream and VLT) one of the >sceens will probably be interpreted as a Workbench resolution screen after >one of the flips and the Amiga will hang. It doesn't matter what the high-res >programs are. This is a bug in the intuition makevport call. I'll include a uuencoded zoo file of the source, documentation, and executable of a tiny patch that fixes it right up at the end of this posting. Before I applied this patch, VLT would crash on me all the time. >>If I could find a good reliable term program with a decent kermit and >>Zmodem as good as JRComm's that wouldn't crash, I'd be a long way towards >>making my system more reliable. Right now I use VLT, JRComm, VT100, and > > What's wrong with VLT? I use Zmodem and Kermit daily and love it! VLT's kermit does not work well with 7-bit binary transfers on a 7-bit mark parity channel. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. The only kermit that I've found that works right with my host is an ancient buggy version of VT100. Also, you do have to admit that VLT's user interface is not as nice as that of JRComm (neither is the Zmodem support). I use VLT when I need Tek 4105 psuedo emulation (which I do occasionally). >Dan Griffin >griffin@frith.egr.msu.edu begin 777 mvp_patch.zoo M6D]/(#(N,# @07)C:&EV92X: #<I\3]*@ -;___\" $J !W*?$X M_0(!*@$ ($ ">%"-N?5?$ J0 $ !-86ME5E!O<BYTX M7U &@!_F%(0 $UA:V564&]R=%]0871C: ,!!0 $ I(R@ $ &#!/X MH$&! 0XJ%(A"X(!T!E&PP . 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C506634@UMCVMB.MISSOURI.EDU (Eric Edwards) (03/17/91)
In Message-ID: <2147@public.BTR.COM>
thad@public.BTR.COM (Thaddeus P. Floryan) said:
>Hmmm, wondering about all the recent flak over HandShake 2.20c, I recovered
>it from floppy (after doing "CLI> delete hand
>it (using the ARTM monitor ... great program, by the way) was the ONLY thing
>on my system bringing in the ARP library. And HandShake 2.20c is the ONLY
>thing on my system(s) that causes a guru without undue provocation.
>
>Are we "on" to something here? Just curious.
Doubtfull. The only part of ARP that Handshake uses is the file requester.
The major problems that people have been having with Handshake is with XPR's
especially Zmodem.
For the record, here's another handshake bug that's been there since at least
1.60b.. Under very low memory conditions or heavy fragmentation, try to open
the phonebook. LOCKUP. No messages, no guru. No problems with the rest of
the system but now you have a large application dead in the water, eating
memory. For those of us with only 1 meg, the only real option is a three finger
salute.
Eric Edwards: c506634 @ "The 3090. Proof that by applying state of the
Inet: umcvmb.missouri.edu art technology to an obsolete architecture,
Bitnet: umcvmb.bitnet one can achieve mediocre performance."griffin@frith.egr.msu.edu (Danny Griffin) (03/18/91)
ben@epmooch.UUCP (Rev. Ben A. Mesander) writes: >I don't really think so... I normally run my Amiga without rebooting, and >it lasts about a week at a time. I run ARP, GCC, SAS/C, and AmigaUUCP 1.06D I also use ARP (except a few commands like their run) and love it. I seldom reboot my computer, and have only found one thing that will crash it reliably. -- flipping between screens when two of them are interlaced. I can flip between shells and numerous multitasking programs quickly all day long, but the minute two of them are interlaced (like PageStream and VLT) one of the sceens will probably be interpreted as a Workbench resolution screen after one of the flips and the Amiga will hang. It doesn't matter what the high-res programs are. >If I could find a good reliable term program with a decent kermit and >Zmodem as good as JRComm's that wouldn't crash, I'd be a long way towards >making my system more reliable. Right now I use VLT, JRComm, VT100, and What's wrong with VLT? I use Zmodem and Kermit daily and love it! >-- >| ben@epmooch.UUCP (Ben Mesander) | "Cash is more important than | >| ben%servalan.UUCP@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu | your mother." - Al Shugart, | >| !chinet!uokmax!servalan!epmooch!ben | CEO, Seagate Technologies | -- Dan Griffin griffin@frith.egr.msu.edu
micke@slaka.sirius.se (Mikael Karlsson) (03/18/91)
In article <962@cbmger.UUCP> peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) writes: >In article <micke.5280@slaka.sirius.se> micke@slaka.sirius.se (Mikael Karlsson) writes: >> >>But the ARP commands have one great advantage. Wildcard expansions are >>sorted. That makes it very easy for me to join files part01..partNN in >>the correct order by simply giving the command: >> >>JOIN FILE?? AS BIGFILE >> >>How do I do that with standard AmigaDOS commands? How about: > >Well, to do it a simple way, you need 2.0, but then it may go like this: >TYPE >BIGFILE FILE?? Ok, let's try it. Courtesy of Snap: 1.Home:2.0/commodities/moonmouse> version Kickstart version 36.143. Workbench version 36.68 1.Home:2.0/commodities/moonmouse> echo >file02 Two 1.Home:2.0/commodities/moonmouse> echo >file01 One 1.Home:2.0/commodities/moonmouse> TYPE >BIGFILE FILE?? 1.Home:2.0/commodities/moonmouse> type bigfile Two One 1.Home:2.0/commodities/moonmouse> Nope. Close but no cigar. Thanks for playing. >Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... >Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk /Mikael -- \_/ Mikael Karlsson, Lovsattersvagen 10, S-585 98 LINKOPING, SWEDEN V | micke@slaka.sirius.se | Absolut Software | micke@slaka.UUCP ~~~ | {mcvax,seismo}!sunic!liuida!slaka!micke
cs326ag@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Loren J. Rittle) (03/18/91)
In article <1991Mar17.214701.5045@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> griffin@frith.egr.msu.edu (Danny Griffin) writes: >reboot my computer, and have only found one thing that will crash it reliably. >-- flipping between screens when two of them are interlaced. I can flip >between shells and numerous multitasking programs quickly all day long, but >the minute two of them are interlaced (like PageStream and VLT) one of the >sceens will probably be interpreted as a Workbench resolution screen after >one of the flips and the Amiga will hang. It doesn't matter what the high-res >programs are. Ahh, this is an old bug under 1.x, this little uuencoded patch will fix things right up for you: --- cut here --- begin 777 MakeVPort_Patch M```#\P`````````!```````````````H```#Z0```"@L>``$0_H`ADZN_F@JJ M0&8$<!1.=0QM`"0`%&Q`<"@B/`````%.KO\Z*$!F"B)-3J[^8G`*3G5!^@`N# M(DQP*$ZN_9!.KO]\(DT@?/___R@@#%B`3J[^7"B`3J[_=B)-3J[^8G``3G4`G M````2.<`#"I)2?K_]"A43I0P+0`@"```#6<$0FT`&DS?,`!.=6=R87!H:6-SW 0+FQI8G)A<GD````````#\I0P< `` end --- end here --- >-- >Dan Griffin >griffin@frith.egr.msu.edu Loren J. Rittle -- ``NewTek stated that the Toaster *would* *not* be made to directly support the Mac, at this point Sculley stormed out of the booth...'' --- A scene at the recent MacExpo. Gee, you wouldn't think that an Apple Exec would be so worried about one little Amiga device... Loren J. Rittle l-rittle@uiuc.edu
jtreworgy@eagle.wesleyan.edu (03/19/91)
In article <2147@public.BTR.COM>, thad@public.BTR.COM (Thaddeus P. Floryan) writes: > Hmmm, wondering about all the recent flak over HandShake 2.20c, I recovered > it from floppy (after doing "CLI> delete hand#?" earlier), and noticed that > it (using the ARTM monitor ... great program, by the way) was the ONLY thing > on my system bringing in the ARP library. And HandShake 2.20c is the ONLY > thing on my system(s) that causes a guru without undue provocation. > > Are we "on" to something here? Just curious. Handshake only brings in the library if you select ARP file requester (and use it). You don't "need" arp library to use handshake. Believe me, though, Handshake 2.20c crashes all by itself... doesn't need any help from arp. By the way, in the wake of all this flak about arp, I should comment that I have used it exclusively since the most recent version was released, and it makes life in CLI a lot easier than the original commands... whatall with pipes and redirection and stuff. I believe incompatibilities exist but I have never personally experienced one.. I'll take a chance for the added convenience. -- James A. Treworgy -- No quote here for insurance reasons -- jtreworgy@eagle.wesleyan.edu jtreworgy@WESLEYAN.BITNET