peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (05/22/91)
Now that CDTV is available, a question/proposal:
How about making an MS-DOS emulator that is specialized in reading
and running MS-DOS CD-ROMs? There are many such discs out already,
but most of them come with proprietary software on them for querying,
and this software is mostly written for MS-DOS.
So: IBeM author, are you hearing? Doesn't this sound interesting?
And for the same matter: How about an AMAX-CDTV? Then you could run all
those CD-ROMs for Macs.
Well I know, we only have a 7 MHz 68000 there, but for those query
programs, it perhaps will do. Oh, I forgot, when CD-ROMs carry
graphics, this is normally at least EGA, so this could turn out as
the hard part.
--
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions...
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterkxgr39@isuvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) (05/24/91)
In article <1239@cbmger.UUCP>, peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) writes: >Now that CDTV is available, a question/proposal: >How about making an MS-DOS emulator that is specialized in reading >and running MS-DOS CD-ROMs? There are many such discs out already, >but most of them come with proprietary software on them for querying, >and this software is mostly written for MS-DOS. >So: IBeM author, are you hearing? Doesn't this sound interesting? > >And for the same matter: How about an AMAX-CDTV? Then you could run all >those CD-ROMs for Macs. That would be unfeasible, as you would have to add far too much to the CDTV in order to make it work. You would have to add a monitor, keyboard, floppy drive, and more memory. It would be much better to simply modify the Janus software so as to allow Amiga CD-ROM drives to run IBM CD-ROM software when used in conjunction with a BridgeCard. Allowing an Amiga CD-ROM drive to run MAC CD-ROM software when used with A-MAX would be up to ReadySoft, the developers of A-MAX. > >Well I know, we only have a 7 MHz 68000 there, but for those query >programs, it perhaps will do. Oh, I forgot, when CD-ROMs carry >graphics, this is normally at least EGA, so this could turn out as >the hard part. > >-- >Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... >Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk ------------------------------------------------------------- / Marc Barrett -MB- | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / / ISU COM S Student | Internet: XGR39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU / ------------------------------------------------------------ \ ISU : The Home of the Goon / \ Who wants to Blow Up the Moon / -------------------------------------------------------
billc@cryo.UUCP (William J. Coldwell) (05/28/91)
In article <1991May24.021015.27939@news.iastate.edu> xgr39@isuvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) writes: >In article <1239@cbmger.UUCP>, peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) writes: >>Now that CDTV is available, a question/proposal: [stuff deleted] > It would be much better to simply modify the Janus software so as to >allow Amiga CD-ROM drives to run IBM CD-ROM software when used in conjunction >with a BridgeCard. This would be nice. > Allowing an Amiga CD-ROM drive to run MAC CD-ROM software when used with >A-MAX would be up to ReadySoft, the developers of A-MAX. Nah, just get the Mac drivers for your drive and guess what? It works under A-MaxII by default. It sure is nice having Inside Macintosh as a HyperCard stack. Gee CBM guys, when can I get my RKM-CDs? >>Well I know, we only have a 7 MHz 68000 there, but for those query >>programs, it perhaps will do. Oh, I forgot, when CD-ROMs carry >>graphics, this is normally at least EGA, so this could turn out as >>the hard part. The stuff I'm working on deals with converting VGA (and boy are there a lot of different manufacturers that you have to support) to 320x400 HAM (ick) or 640x400 with massive dithering. >>Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... > / Marc Barrett -MB- | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / -- William J. Coldwell PLink: CRYO I'm a 3-DPro, wouldn't you Amiga Attitude Adjuster BIX: wjcoldwell like to be a 3-DPro2 ? Cryogenic Software UUCP:billc@cryo 3-D PROFESSIONAL 2.0 #define STD_DSCLMR "The above opinions are mine. You can't have them."
phupp@warwick.ac.uk (S Millington) (05/29/91)
In article <1991May24.021015.27939@news.iastate.edu> xgr39@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: > It would be much better to simply modify the Janus software so as to >allow Amiga CD-ROM drives to run IBM CD-ROM software when used in conjunction >with a BridgeCard. Allowing an Amiga CD-ROM drive to run MAC CD-ROM Get serious. JANUS won't even use the serial port yet! ***************************************************************************** * Stuart Millington * "A Mind Is A Terrible Thing, Remember * * UUCP:...!mcsun!ukc!warwick!phupp * That." - David Bryan, Bon Jovi * * JANET:phupp@uk.ac.warwick.cu ***************************************** * ? :phupp%warwick.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk * *****************************************************************************
taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu (Marc Barrett) (05/30/91)
In article <7!Z_4N|@warwick.ac.uk>, phupp@warwick.ac.uk (S Millington) writes: >In article <1991May24.021015.27939@news.iastate.edu> xgr39@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: > >> It would be much better to simply modify the Janus software so as to >>allow Amiga CD-ROM drives to run IBM CD-ROM software when used in conjunction >>with a BridgeCard. Allowing an Amiga CD-ROM drive to run MAC CD-ROM > > Get serious. JANUS won't even use the serial port yet! > Janus has other problems as well. Commodore has not satisfactorily upgraded the Janus software. In addition to the use of an Amiga CD-ROM drive to run IBM CD-ROM software, a feature that Commodore should have included a long time ago is the ability to use any serial port or modems on the IBM side with Amiga software. Internal modems and multi-serial port cards for IBM are less than 1/5 the cost of similar cards for Amiga, and it would be nice to be able to use these cards with Amiga software. In short, I call into serious question Commodore's commitment to the Janus software. There is so much potential with this software that has to date been totally ignored by Commodore. > >***************************************************************************** >* Stuart Millington * "A Mind Is A Terrible Thing, Remember * >* UUCP:...!mcsun!ukc!warwick!phupp * That." - David Bryan, Bon Jovi * >* JANET:phupp@uk.ac.warwick.cu ***************************************** >* ? :phupp%warwick.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk * >***************************************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------- / Marc Barrett -MB- | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / / ISU COM S Student | Internet: XGR39@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU / ------------------------------------------------------------ \ ISU : The Home of the Goon / \ Who wants to Blow Up the Moon / -------------------------------------------------------
drysdale@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Drysdale) (05/30/91)
In article <7!Z_4N|@warwick.ac.uk> phupp@warwick.ac.uk (S Millington) writes: >In article <1991May24.021015.27939@news.iastate.edu> xgr39@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: > >> It would be much better to simply modify the Janus software so as to >>allow Amiga CD-ROM drives to run IBM CD-ROM software when used in conjunction >>with a BridgeCard. Allowing an Amiga CD-ROM drive to run MAC CD-ROM > > Get serious. JANUS won't even use the serial port yet! janus doesn't use the amiga's serial port for two reasons: 1) the original designers did a silly thing - they decided that software and hardware could share the same interrupt vector for radically different things. the interrupt they picked was IRQ 3 (software INT 0BH). that's the COM2: interrupt. imagine the fun when Telix or your favorite PC terminal program grabs the IRQ 3 vector to provide interrupt driven serial i/o. no more janus software (which depends on INT 0BH). 2) the original designers didn't think very hard when they designed the COM2: emulation hardware in the custom chips (they didn't think very hard when designing the LPT1: emulation either, or the CGA emulation...). ie, the COM2: emulation hardware does such a poor job that it wasn't worth enabling. i don't know how pc's deal with CD ROM drives (ie, do they have real MS-DOS filesystems on them? is there a special filesystem? do they have to fondle the hardware themselves?). if they did a reasonable job, it should be possible to intercept the requests from the application at a suitably high level and direct them to the amiga (much like what JDISK.SYS does). the level at which you tap into the connection between the application and the device should be low enough that you're not duplicating alot of ms-dos functionality on the amiga side, but high enough that you're not at the "emulate the hardware registers" level. >***************************************************************************** >* Stuart Millington * "A Mind Is A Terrible Thing, Remember * >* UUCP:...!mcsun!ukc!warwick!phupp * That." - David Bryan, Bon Jovi * >* JANET:phupp@uk.ac.warwick.cu ***************************************** >* ? :phupp%warwick.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk * >***************************************************************************** --Scotty -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Scott Drysdale Software Engineer Commodore Amiga Inc. UUCP {allegra|burdvax|rutgers|ihnp4}!cbmvax!drysdale PHONE - yes. "Have you hugged your hog today?" =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
drysdale@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Drysdale) (05/30/91)
In article <1991May29.231913.25175@news.iastate.edu> taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: >In article <7!Z_4N|@warwick.ac.uk>, phupp@warwick.ac.uk (S Millington) writes: >>In article <1991May24.021015.27939@news.iastate.edu> xgr39@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: >> >>> It would be much better to simply modify the Janus software so as to >>>allow Amiga CD-ROM drives to run IBM CD-ROM software when used in conjunction >>>with a BridgeCard. Allowing an Amiga CD-ROM drive to run MAC CD-ROM >> >> Get serious. JANUS won't even use the serial port yet! >> > Janus has other problems as well. Commodore has not satisfactorily >upgraded the Janus software. In addition to the use of an Amiga CD-ROM >drive to run IBM CD-ROM software, a feature that Commodore should have >included a long time ago is the ability to use any serial port or >modems on the IBM side with Amiga software. this is technically possible, if you want your bridgeboard to do nothing except service serial ports. this is because ms-dos is not reentrant. ms-dos does not provide hardware resource arbitration. ms-dos applications therefor fondle the hardware themselves, since there's no OS support to speak of. > Internal modems and >multi-serial port cards for IBM are less than 1/5 the cost of similar >cards for Amiga, and it would be nice to be able to use these >cards with Amiga software. true, there are only a few (supra, applied engineering) manufacturers of internal modems for the amiga. the prices range from $159 to $189 (list prices). i believe both have MNP, and one is upgradable to send FAX. show me a 2400 baud internal modem with MNP for the pc that sells for $32 *LIST* (1/5 of $159). again, there are only a few add-on serial cards for the amiga. commodore's A2232 (7 port intelligent serial card, $400 list), ASDG's DSB (2 port "dumb" serial card, $249 list) are examples. there are at least three other manufacturers, but i don't know much about the products. let's use the A2232 - show me an intelligent multiport serial card for the PC that lists for under $12 per port ($249 / 7 * 1/5). "intelligent" in this context means it's got it's own CPU to offload interrupt overhead from the host computer. in both of these examples, don't forget to add in the cost of the bridgeboard. $400 for the 2088 (XT) or $700 for the 2286 (AT). somehow i think using real amiga cards comes up alot cheaper. > In short, I call into serious question Commodore's commitment to the >Janus software. There is so much potential with this software that >has to date been totally ignored by Commodore. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ um, i don't think so. there is indeed alot of potential. but how much of what is possible (as far as the amiga using pc peripherals and vice versa) can't be done better by normal amiga devices (or vice versa)? yes, there are some people doing some rather obscure things with bridgeboards because some kind of arcane card is available for the pc, but they'd rather program and amiga. as for general appeal to users, it might help out the hobbyist who has access to a bunch of virtually free pc hardware and *already* has a bridgeboard. but i don't think there are enough of those types of users buying bridgeboards to actually make a bridgeboard that much more attractive. the bridgeboard has two purposes in life: 1) to let people who have an amiga but need to run pc stuff occasionally do so easily and conveniently (easy data sharing, enough hardware sharing to get by). 2) to help business purchasers who otherwise would not be able to buy an amiga to do so. you: "boss, i'd like an amiga instead of one of those compaq's when we order those pc's." boss: "is it ibm compatible?" you: (slyly) "well, yes!" boss: "ok, if it's not too expensive." >>* Stuart Millington * "A Mind Is A Terrible Thing, Remember * > / Marc Barrett -MB- | BITNET: XGR39@ISUVAX.BITNET / --Scotty -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Scott Drysdale Software Engineer Commodore Amiga Inc. UUCP {allegra|burdvax|rutgers|ihnp4}!cbmvax!drysdale PHONE - yes. "Have you hugged your hog today?" =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (05/30/91)
In article <1991May29.231913.25175@news.iastate.edu> taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: >In article <7!Z_4N|@warwick.ac.uk>, phupp@warwick.ac.uk (S Millington) writes: >>In article <1991May24.021015.27939@news.iastate.edu> xgr39@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: >> Get serious. JANUS won't even use the serial port yet! You can't use the Amiga's serial port via Janus. That's an MS-DOS problem, not an Amiga problem. MS-DOS basically assumes the exact bit patterns that your serial chip will have in its registers. It's impossible to emulate a hardware device at that detail and get any speed out of it. >In addition to the use of an Amiga CD-ROM drive to run IBM CD-ROM software, >a feature that Commodore should have included a long time ago is the ability >to use any serial port or modems on the IBM side with Amiga software. That, on the other hand, could be done, since the Amiga device driver model would allow the IBM-side processor to handle serial interrupts and buffering, and it of course makes no assumptions about what the underlying hardware looks like. Far as I can tell, there's no reason Commodore has to write such a program for you; if you're a programmer, the Janus docs are available. Or, if you want to brute force it, you could take over the BridgeCard with some kind of custom server program of your own (MS-DOS isn't going to be much use with your serial server running, unless you figure out how to do it as some kind of device driver or TSR, like the janus hard disk -- I'm not at all up on what's actually possible under MS-DOS). >Internal modems and multi-serial port cards for IBM are less than 1/5 the >cost of similar cards for Amiga, Dang, if you can get a 6-8 port serial card with CPU for the ISA bus for under $50, I bet you could actually make some real money on the Janus serial server for it. Even without CPU (hell, the 8088 on the original Bridge Card bangs bytes around better than 1/4 the speed of the 4502 on the A2232; you might get it servicing four ports on its own real nicely). > In short, I call into serious question Commodore's commitment to the >Janus software. There is so much potential with this software that >has to date been totally ignored by Commodore. "Son, that's what we call an opportunity." - Foghorn Leghorn Commodore cannot possibly write Janus cross drivers for every ISA bus card under the sun. If you see an opening, go for it! Don't let Commodore get in your way. I'll tell you, as an occasional user of Janus software, there are a few more pressing issues before they start fiddling with serial cards. But the basic system does work reasonably well. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon) (05/31/91)
In article <22032@cbmvax.commodore.com> drysdale@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Drysdale) writes: >In article <1991May29.231913.25175@news.iastate.edu> taab5@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: >>In article <7!Z_4N|@warwick.ac.uk>, phupp@warwick.ac.uk (S Millington) writes: >>>In article <1991May24.021015.27939@news.iastate.edu> xgr39@isuvax.iastate.edu writes: >>>... > >> Internal modems and >>multi-serial port cards for IBM are less than 1/5 the cost of similar >>cards for Amiga, and it would be nice to be able to use these >>cards with Amiga software. > >.. > >again, there are only a few add-on serial cards for the amiga. commodore's >A2232 (7 port intelligent serial card, $400 list), ASDG's DSB (2 port "dumb" >serial card, $249 list) are examples. there are at least three other >manufacturers, but i don't know much about the products. let's use the >A2232 - show me an intelligent multiport serial card for the PC that lists for >under $12 per port ($249 / 7 * 1/5). "intelligent" in this context means it's >got it's own CPU to offload interrupt overhead from the host computer. The problem with the IBM under MSDOS is that there is NO SUPPORT FOR MORE THAN 2 SERIAL PORTS. That's right, 2, not 4. The reason is that the original serial specification hardwired IRQ 3 and IRQ 4 as well as hardwired the IO port locations and specific IO chip required, meaning that beyong a few simple hacks and a few chips that 'emulate' the originals but add fifo's, the only other solution as far as an IBM goes is to go full-custom. While you can have four serial ports you can only use 2 of them simultaniously on an MSDOS machine because THE INTERRUPTS ARE NOT SHARABLE... COM1 and COM3 are on one interrupt and COM2 and COM4 are on another, but for each interrupt only *ONE* of the serial ports may be active. What's the use of having a multi-port serial board for an IBM if you can't even use all the ports simultaniously? Thank you, I'll pass. I much prefer the Amiga and the A2232, where I can run all 7 ports simultaniously from different programs without them interfering with each other or even slowing the computer down all that much. -Matt -- Matthew Dillon dillon@Overload.Berkeley.CA.US 891 Regal Rd. uunet.uu.net!overload!dillon Berkeley, Ca. 94708 USA
phupp@warwick.ac.uk (S Millington) (05/31/91)
In article <22034@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: >Commodore cannot possibly write Janus cross drivers for every ISA bus card >under the sun. If you see an opening, go for it! Don't let Commodore get >in your way. I'll tell you, as an occasional user of Janus software, there >are a few more pressing issues before they start fiddling with serial cards. >But the basic system does work reasonably well. In the last week, on the NET someone from commodore - can't remember who, stated that the only way commodore would tell end users how to use the JANUS.library, i.e. provide documentation for software the customer has already bought, was is the end user became a JANUS developer!!!!!!!! How much does that cost:-) How are end users expected to write stuff for JANUS when commodore won't release the docs publicly? I would BUY a manual, "JANUS Programmers Reference Guide."? Even if I could afford to become one of these elite JANUS developers I doubt I would qualify - given the qualifications required to become a registered developer for other areas of the amiga system. In short commodore is not allowing the end users, their customers, to write the drivers that you suggest they could/should. If commodore will not allow us to write the they are by defult taking on the responsibility themselves - OR deciding to ignore bridgeboard users. Personaly I only rarely use the bridgeboard, but it is a real pain having to source a PC I/O card so I can use a serial port, when there is already a perfectly good one on the amiga - even 2400/4800 baud would be useful. BTW - The ATonce does allow you to use the amiga serial port. So it can't be that hard to implement. ***************************************************************************** * Stuart Millington * "A Mind Is A Terrible Thing, Remember * * UUCP:...!mcsun!ukc!warwick!phupp * That." - David Bryan, Bon Jovi * * JANET:phupp@uk.ac.warwick.cu ***************************************** * ? :phupp%warwick.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk * *****************************************************************************
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (05/31/91)
In article <22032@cbmvax.commodore.com> drysdale@cbmvax.commodore.com (Scott Drysdale) writes: > in both of these examples, don't forget to add in the cost of the bridgeboard. > $400 for the 2088 (XT) or $700 for the 2286 (AT). somehow i think using > real amiga cards comes up alot cheaper. How about the long-sought dumb bridge board? Just enough hardware to let Amiga software address the PC bus. Then I could stick a couple of 2-port dumb cards with good uarts in for $60 (total) or an AST dumb card for $100 and get 4 ports. The dumb bridge card couldn't cost more than $100, and should be less than that. I could probably cannibalize the famous FAS driver for much of the hardware control. If the Bridge card is just for PR, as you imply, why doesn't my 3000 have Amiga slots inline with *all* the PC slots? -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) (05/31/91)
In article <T=1_M&=@warwick.ac.uk> phupp@warwick.ac.uk (S Millington) writes: >In article <22034@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes: > > >BTW - The ATonce does allow you to use the amiga serial port. So it can't >be that hard to implement. It seems to redirect the BIOS calls. Which means the actual number of terminal programs this allows you to use is on the close order of zero. >* Stuart Millington * "A Mind Is A Terrible Thing, Remember * andy -- andy finkel {uunet|rutgers|amiga}!cbmvax!andy Commodore-Amiga, Inc. "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a popsicle." Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share. I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli +1 201 408 5389) (06/01/91)
In article <22071@cbmvax.commodore.com> andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) writes: > It seems to redirect the BIOS calls. Which means the actual number > of terminal programs this allows you to use is on the close order > of zero. That's unfair, Andy. MS-KERMIT (the *best* VT100 emulator for the PC) will use the BIOS calls. One is good enough for me! In fact, in testing it we were able to get a quality 300bps out of it. Of course, we did try it on an 286 and we were able to get about 450bps and have it still be reliable. Of course, our goal of 9600bps was met, but the BIOS routines missed all but 1 in 12 bytes, but what else do you want? PERFECTION OR SOMETHING??? Tom P.S. Those are real test results. I was once assigned to research the topic so that we could prove my boss's boss was wrong. > andy finkel {uunet|rutgers|amiga}!cbmvax!andy -- Tom Limoncelli tlimonce@drew.edu tlimonce@drew.bitnet 201-408-5389 "People in tight pants, moving fast."
rockwell@socrates.umd.edu (Raul Rockwell) (06/01/91)
Matthew Dillon:
What's the use of having a multi-port serial board for an IBM
if you can't even use all the ports simultaniously? Thank you,
I'll pass.
Well, you could put a BIG buffer on each serial port and poll when you
get an interrupt. A megabyte of memory isn't that expensive... ;-)
Raul Rockwelljsanchez@polari.UUCP (jim sanchez) (06/02/91)
Actually MOST terminal programs these days allow you to use redirected BIOS calls (actually INT 14). Kermit for example supports this very well as does Telix and Reflections. Cheers -- Jim Sanchez jim@hls.com Hughes LAN Systems - Bellevue, WA (206)646-4999
watters@favorite.cis.ohio-state.edu (david r watters) (06/03/91)
In article <T=1_M&=@warwick.ac.uk> phupp@warwick.ac.uk (S Millington) writes: >JANUS.library, i.e. provide documentation for software the customer has >already bought, was is the end user became a JANUS developer!!!!!!!! > How much does that cost:-) I imagine you just have to be a registered developer, which doesn't cost much at all. > How are end users expected to write stuff for JANUS when commodore won't >release the docs publicly? I would BUY a manual, "JANUS Programmers >Reference Guide."? I can think of a lot more projects to take on as a hobby that would be easier and more productive, thus the lack in commercial manuals. > Personaly I only rarely use the bridgeboard, but it is a real pain having >to source a PC I/O card so I can use a serial port, when there is already a >perfectly good one on the amiga - even 2400/4800 baud would be useful. A real pain! NOT! A serial card in an 8bit config with a printer port and game port can be had for $19. A used one may be $10. Besides what do you need one for? You can use the printer port with the Bridgecard and downloads can be done on the Amiga side and transfered over. (Using some nice software written for Janus by CBM :-)) As for Prodigy.... HA! >BTW - The ATonce does allow you to use the amiga serial port. So it can't >be that hard to implement. I think it may be bigger than you believe. If not, it would have shipped with the first XT bridgecard.. Besides, I would imagine the dual-port ram transfers wouldn't be fast enough to allow any software to redirect all access to an IBM com port to the Amiga serial.device and also maintain any sort of acceptable transfer rate. ///\ _ '_/ \X//_/(/|//(/ -- "All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer by the stars. All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars!" - RUSH David watters@cis.ohio-state.edu "It's 12:35... and Michigan STILL sucks." _-_-_-__---_---_---__-_-_-____ TurboExpress : The Neo*Geo of portables _____