ridder@elvira.enet.dec.com (Hans Ridder) (06/20/91)
In the new _Amiga User Interface Style Guide_ in the chapter on menus under the heading "Color," it says that menus should be in dark text on a light background, and then goes on to say that the examples in the book are *not* this way because the version of Release 2 used for the examples was not capable of doing it. Is this actually correct? All previous versions of the system used light text on a dark background (like the examples in the book,) and 2.03 version running on the 3000 at the local dealer is the same. Is this changed in 2.04? Is the new style guide wrong? Confused, -hans ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hans-Gabriel Ridder Digital Equipment Corporation ridder@elvira.enet.dec.com Customer Support Center ...decwrl!elvira.enet!ridder Colorado Springs, CO
andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) (06/21/91)
In article <3412@shodha.enet.dec.com> ridder@elvira.enet.dec.com (Hans Ridder) writes: >In the new _Amiga User Interface Style Guide_ in the chapter on menus >under the heading "Color," it says that menus should be in dark text on >a light background, and then goes on to say that the examples in the >book are *not* this way because the version of Release 2 used for the >examples was not capable of doing it. > >Is this actually correct? All previous versions of the system used >light text on a dark background (like the examples in the book,) and >2.03 version running on the 3000 at the local dealer is the same. Is >this changed in 2.04? Is the new style guide wrong? The dark menus only appeared in 2.0; in 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3 we had menus with a white background. And we liked them. For 2.0 we swapped the dark and light pens used by the system; one side effect was that suddenly we had white text on dark menus. Perhaps in a future revision of Intuition, if the menu system is revamped, we can go back to dark text on a light background for menus, as =RJ= intended. >-hans andy -- andy finkel {uunet|rutgers|amiga}!cbmvax!andy Commodore-Amiga, Inc. "2.0 is not the answer. 2.0 is the question. Yes is the answer." Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share. I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
lindwall@beowulf.ucsd.edu (John Lindwall) (06/22/91)
In article <22626@cbmvax.commodore.com> andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) writes: >The dark menus only appeared in 2.0; in 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3 we >had menus with a white background. And we liked them. > >Perhaps in a future revision of Intuition, if the menu system >is revamped, we can go back to dark text on a light background >for menus, as =RJ= intended. I'm curious as to the reasons for preferring one scheme over the other. Is there some pyschological/biological/ergonomic reason for preferring dark text on light? Some additional thoughts on the Amiga User Interface Style Guide: Good job people! I really enjoyed the books' content and style. The justification for standardization of user interface elements was very well presented, in particular. I noticed (from a note on the first page) that the book was created on an Amiga 2500 using ProPage, and a collection of other Amiga software products. This was a pleasant surprise and a nice touch. I've been eagerly awaiting this book and was able to purchase it recently at Software ETC. Apparently they had just gotten them in this week. I paid about $22. -- John Lindwall lindwall@cs.ucsd.edu "Oh look at me! I'm all flooby! I'll be a son of a gun!" -- Flaming Carrot
peter@Sugar.NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) (06/22/91)
In article <22626@cbmvax.commodore.com> andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) writes: > For 2.0 we swapped the dark and light pens used by the system; > one side effect was that suddenly we had white text on dark > menus. And a great improvement it was too! > Perhaps in a future revision of Intuition, if the menu system > is revamped, we can go back to dark text on a light background > for menus, as =RJ= intended. Make it an option. Please? -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>. 'U` "Have you hugged your wolf today?"
ridder@elvira.enet.dec.com (Hans Ridder) (06/23/91)
In article <22626@cbmvax.commodore.com> andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) writes: >The dark menus only appeared in 2.0; in 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3 we >had menus with a white background. And we liked them. Here's what I was trying to say: In 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3 you had pen 0 text on a pen 1 background, right? In 2.0 it's the same -- menus are in "reverse video" of normal text in a window (pen 1 text on a pen 0 background,) and that hasn't changed from what I can see. >For 2.0 we swapped the dark and light pens used by the system; >one side effect was that suddenly we had white text on dark >menus. Sure. >Perhaps in a future revision of Intuition, if the menu system >is revamped, we can go back to dark text on a light background >for menus, as =RJ= intended. You'd know better than I would what =RJ= intended. I always assumed menus were "reverse video" so they would stand out against the background better. If this is changed to match what the Style Guide says, then menus will tend to disappear agains "normal" backgrounds.... > andy So I gather that the Style Guide is right, and you hope to modify the Intuition menu system at some point in the future, right? If so, what are developers supposed to do in the meantime in order to follow the recommendations of the Style Guide? Nothing? -hans ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hans-Gabriel Ridder Digital Equipment Corporation ridder@elvira.enet.dec.com Customer Support Center ...decwrl!elvira.enet!ridder Colorado Springs, CO
andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) (06/25/91)
In article <20867@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> lindwall@beowulf.ucsd.edu (John Lindwall) writes: >In article <22626@cbmvax.commodore.com> andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) writes: >>The dark menus only appeared in 2.0; in 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3 we >>had menus with a white background. And we liked them. >> >>Perhaps in a future revision of Intuition, if the menu system >>is revamped, we can go back to dark text on a light background >>for menus, as =RJ= intended. > >I'm curious as to the reasons for preferring one scheme over the other. >Is there some pyschological/biological/ergonomic reason for preferring >dark text on light? > It's more readable; and your characters tend not to get scan lines showing up through them with dark text on a light background. This was one of the main arguments that caused us to switch the color palette for 2.0, btw. One point: if you are using custom screens under 2.0 you can set your color palette so the menus are dark text on light background today. It's only when appearing on the workbench do you have problems. andy >Some additional thoughts on the Amiga User Interface Style Guide: > >Good job people! I really enjoyed the books' content and style. The >justification for standardization of user interface elements was very >well presented, in particular. > Thanks. We appreciate that. I guess those meeting-length arguments finally paid off :-) >John Lindwall lindwall@cs.ucsd.edu andy -- andy finkel {uunet|rutgers|amiga}!cbmvax!andy Commodore-Amiga, Inc. "2.0 is not the answer. 2.0 is the question. Yes is the answer." Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share. I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) (06/25/91)
In article <3442@shodha.enet.dec.com> ridder@elvira.enet.dec.com (Hans Ridder) writes: >In article <22626@cbmvax.commodore.com> andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) writes: >You'd know better than I would what =RJ= intended. I always assumed >menus were "reverse video" so they would stand out against the >background better. If this is changed to match what the Style Guide >says, then menus will tend to disappear agains "normal" backgrounds.... > >> andy > >So I gather that the Style Guide is right, and you hope to modify the >Intuition menu system at some point in the future, right? If so, what >are developers supposed to do in the meantime in order to follow the >recommendations of the Style Guide? Nothing? On your own custom screen, you can set things up so it works 'properly', and matches the style guide. On Workbench you have to accept what you get; if the system changes you'd automatically change too. Naturally there are people who prefer the light letter on dark background that Workbench gives you now; you may have to add an option to please these people :-) Increased use of the shadow, shine, etc. pens in the future should mitigate the effect of color problems in the future, as it is no longer just an absolute register situation; instead you get one level of indirection. >-hans andy -- andy finkel {uunet|rutgers|amiga}!cbmvax!andy Commodore-Amiga, Inc. "2.0 is not the answer. 2.0 is the question. Yes is the answer." Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share. I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
ridder@elvira.enet.dec.com (Hans Ridder) (06/26/91)
In article <22665@cbmvax.commodore.com> andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) writes: >On your own custom screen, you can set things up so it works 'properly', >and matches the style guide. But if I want the "3D look", don't I have to use the same pens as the workbench? How can I get the "look" and match the Style Guide? >On Workbench you have to accept what you get; if the system changes >you'd automatically change too. Hmmm. Maybe I'm stupid. There are pen numbers in the IntuiText structures used for the menu items. These are either set by GadTools, or myself. I've always set the pen colors to 1,0 (text,background). How will the system changing fix this? >Increased use of the shadow, shine, etc. pens in the future should >mitigate the effect of color problems in the future, as it is no >longer just an absolute register situation; instead you get one >level of indirection. OK, now I'm really lost. Where does the indirection come from? > andy >I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors. ****** ^^^^^^ Hmm... Maybe this explains it! ;-) -hans ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hans-Gabriel Ridder Digital Equipment Corporation ridder@elvira.enet.dec.com Customer Support Center ...decwrl!elvira.enet!ridder Colorado Springs, CO
peter@cbmvax.commodore.com (Peter Cherna) (06/26/91)
In article <3452@shodha.enet.dec.com> ridder@elvira.enet.dec.com (Hans Ridder) writes: >But if I want the "3D look", don't I have to use the same pens as the >workbench? How can I get the "look" and match the Style Guide? > >Hmmm. Maybe I'm stupid. There are pen numbers in the IntuiText >structures used for the menu items. These are either set by GadTools, >or myself. I've always set the pen colors to 1,0 (text,background). >How will the system changing fix this? We have the following pens: TEXTPEN - Used for regular text. For a public screen, it's a pretty good idea to make this pen 1, since older applications typically use pen 1 for text. SHINEPEN - For bright edges of 3D objects. Should be whitish. SHADOWPEN - For dark edges of 3D objects. Should be blackish. FILLPEN - For filling active areas like window frames and highlighted buttons. FILLTEXTPEN - For rendering text over FILLPEN areas. Should be the same as TEXTPEN unless that would make it illegible. BACKGROUNDPEN - Should be zero for now. HIGHLIGHTTEXTPEN - For special text. Now, we wanted black text on the Workbench, so pen 1 had to become black, for existing text-generating programs. Menus, however, aren't rendered based on pens. The menu items are colored based on their imagery, which can be an Image (any color) or an IntuiText, which can have a FrontPen and/or a BackPen (JAM1 or JAM2). So you have partial control. However, the menu panel area itself is rendered in window BlockPen, surrounded by a trim of window DetailPen. Window Block and DetailPens are also used to render old-style proportional gadgets. So you can't adjust those pens without screwing up the look of prop gadgets. Finally, the Amiga-key and Checkmark are "designed" as pen-zero on pen-one. So you're pretty much stuck with pen-zero on pen-one menus. Had time permitted, we would have extended the set of screen pens to include a couple for menus and maybe proportional gadgets. >>Increased use of the shadow, shine, etc. pens in the future should >>mitigate the effect of color problems in the future, as it is no >>longer just an absolute register situation; instead you get one >>level of indirection. > >OK, now I'm really lost. Where does the indirection come from? The indirection is that Intuition uses the pen-mapping you supply for most of its functions. Again, a few areas (like menus) don't yet go through the pen-array. > >> andy >>I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors. > ****** ^^^^^^ >Hmm... Maybe this explains it! ;-) > >-hans Peter -- Peter Cherna, Operating Systems Development Group, Commodore-Amiga, Inc. {uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!peter peter@cbmvax.commodore.com My opinions do not necessarily represent the opinions of my employer. "Gosh, didn't he have anything positive to say at all?"