leech@vivaldi.cs.unc.edu (Jonathan Leech) (02/07/91)
In article <1183@telesoft.com>, matt@telesoft.com (Matt Halls @day) writes: |> > Education Pricing: |> > A3000UXB (includes 5 Meg, 100 MB HD, ethernet board,UNIX Vr4 etc) |> > Individual $4274.00 Institution $3724.00 |> > A3000UXD (includes 9 meg, 200 MB HD ethernet board UNIX Vr4) |> > Individual $5399.00 Institution $4699.00 |> Wow!! these prices are great. I'm disappointed. For $900 less, I can buy a Next with more memory, a larger (albeit gray-scale) display, 3x faster CPU, and a variety of canned software (some of which might even be useful). I don't know what part of the educational market Commodore is attempting to address, but I don't think it includes CS grad students who want personal Unix boxes :-( Flames to /dev/null; I own neither an Amiga nor a Next (but would happily purchase an Amiga if they could add a 68040 and ship it at a price comparable to a Next). -- Jon Leech (leech@cs.unc.edu) __@/ ``My goodness,'' thought Milo, ``everybody is so terribly sensitive about the thing they know best.'' - Norman Juster, _The Phantom Tollbooth_
andrey@beyond.caltech.edu (Andre T. Yew) (02/07/91)
Speaking of the NeXT and its very limited hard disk at about $3200,
does anybody know how much we can actually do with only 100MB of disk? I'd
guess not too much. From personal experience, X binaries alone on an HP-9000
takes approximately 28 MB, and the GNU utilities must take a whole bunch more
disk. Suns, I hear, need approxiamtely 200 MB to do anything useful. Also,
considering the Amiga stuff some people might have, 100 MB is starting to sound
a little cramped. 200 MB, just barely enough. Could someone with some
experience with these machines (the UNIX Amigas) please talk a little about
these issues? I would really appreciate it.
--
andrey@through.cs.caltech.edu Andre Yew
131.215.128.1
--rar@auc.UUCP (Rodney Ricks) (02/08/91)
In article <1337@borg.cs.unc.edu> leech@vivaldi.cs.unc.edu (Jonathan Leech) writes: >In article <1183@telesoft.com>, matt@telesoft.com (Matt Halls @day) writes: >|> > Education Pricing: >|> > A3000UXB (includes 5 Meg, 100 MB HD, ethernet board,UNIX Vr4 etc) >|> > Individual $4274.00 Institution $3724.00 >|> > A3000UXD (includes 9 meg, 200 MB HD ethernet board UNIX Vr4) >|> > Individual $5399.00 Institution $4699.00 >|> Wow!! these prices are great. > > I'm disappointed. For $900 less, I can buy a Next with more >memory, a larger (albeit gray-scale) display, ^^^^^^^^^^ That's probably where a lot of the cost difference comes in. Color displays tend to cost a good deal more than gray-scale displays of the same resolution. Although it does point out that Commodore might need to look into making educational packages with gray-scale monitors. I know *I* wouldn't want to have an Amiga without a color monitor, but others might settle for that for awhile, especially if they can't afford a color system that they want. > 3x faster CPU, The 68040. Is it fully debugged yet? Give Motorola a chance to get the chip working right before expecting Commodore to release a system based on one. In fact, I think I remember reading that the NeXTStations have some kind of hack in them to get around the current known bugs in the '040. Am I wrong about this? >-- > Jon Leech (leech@cs.unc.edu) __@/ Rodney -- /// /// Rodney Ricks, Morehouse College \\\/// \\//
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (02/09/91)
In article <32529@auc.UUCP> rar@auc.UUCP (Rodney Ricks) writes: >In article <1337@borg.cs.unc.edu> leech@vivaldi.cs.unc.edu (Jonathan Leech) writes: >>In article <1183@telesoft.com>, matt@telesoft.com (Matt Halls @day) writes: >>|> > Education Pricing: >>|> > A3000UXB (includes 5 Meg, 100 MB HD, ethernet board,UNIX Vr4 etc) >>|> > Individual $4274.00 Institution $3724.00 >>|> > A3000UXD (includes 9 meg, 200 MB HD ethernet board UNIX Vr4) >>|> > Individual $5399.00 Institution $4699.00 >>|> Wow!! these prices are great. >> >> I'm disappointed. For $900 less, I can buy a Next with more >>memory, a larger (albeit gray-scale) display, > ^^^^^^^^^^ > >That's probably where a lot of the cost difference comes in. Color >displays tend to cost a good deal more than gray-scale displays of the same >resolution. > 1) The prices listed above for the A3000UX don't mention a monitor. Do they include one? Maybe they don't. Maybe they also do and give a choice of 1950/2024. 2) The A1950 is relatively inexpensive to make. The CBM grey-scale monitor costs almost exactly the same. The NeXT monitor is also much higher res than the 1950. >> 3x faster CPU, > >The 68040. Is it fully debugged yet? Give Motorola a chance to get the >chip working right before expecting Commodore to release a system based >on one. > >In fact, I think I remember reading that the NeXTStations have some kind >of hack in them to get around the current known bugs in the '040. Am I wrong >about this? The NeXT has a final version of the 040. NeXT is the only company currently receiving the 040 because they did all the debugging for Motorola, kinda an inside deal. If there are any bugs in it, they will be in everyone's. > >>-- >> Jon Leech (leech@cs.unc.edu) __@/ > >Rodney >-- > /// > /// >Rodney Ricks, Morehouse College \\\/// > \\// -- Ethan Q: What's the definition of a Quayle? A: Two right wings and no backbone.
rehrauer@apollo.HP.COM (Steve Rehrauer) (02/09/91)
In article <32529@auc.UUCP> rar@auc.UUCP (Rodney Ricks) writes: >In article <1337@borg.cs.unc.edu> leech@vivaldi.cs.unc.edu (Jonathan Leech) writes: >> 3x faster CPU, > >The 68040. Is it fully debugged yet? Give Motorola a chance to get the >chip working right before expecting Commodore to release a system based >on one. Let's put it this way: (some companies') systems are being shipped now with '040s in them. If you call Moto, they would probably be happy to send you a recent errata sheet for the chip. If you open your box you can probably spot a mask# on the chip (damn hard to miss an '040; that's one big chip), and correlate that to the errata sheet. Are they perfect yet? Nope, but near enough to it. The remaining bugs that I'm aware of are mostly pretty obscure. I've an '040 node humming in my office with a chip from a few masks back, and it's pretty reliable. -- "The goons are riding motorcycles, but WE'VE | (Steve) rehrauer@apollo.hp.com got a whole big metal car! This will be like | The Apollo Systems Division of stepping on ants..." -- Freelance Police | Hewlett-Packard
rehrauer@apollo.HP.COM (Steve Rehrauer) (02/09/91)
In article <1991Feb8.180341.22098@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > The NeXT has a final version of the 040. NeXT is the only >company currently receiving the 040 because they did all the >debugging for Motorola, kinda an inside deal. Sorry, the second statement is patently untrue. A number of systems developers have been working with '040s for quite some time; NeXT is far from the only "debugger" of this chip. And the fact that NeXT has apparently been shipping '040 NeXTstations for some number of months leads me to believe that not only is the first statement incorrect, but that they were either jumping through hoops to avoid floating-point bugs or just plain not exercizing the chip very well; not the sort of thing you'd want for your sole Q/A, I'd think. What is true is that the supply of '040s is somewhat tight at the moment, as Motorola ramps up and tries to satisfy pent-up demand (which was created in large part by their tardiness in delivering working silicon). > If there are any >bugs in it, they will be in everyone's. Motorola may very well decide that some bugs are too obscure to be worth fixing (strictly speculation on my part). My impression is that they're placing most of their resources into their 88k RISC line these days. -- "The goons are riding motorcycles, but WE'VE | (Steve) rehrauer@apollo.hp.com got a whole big metal car! This will be like | The Apollo Systems Division of stepping on ants..." -- Freelance Police | Hewlett-Packard
greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) (02/09/91)
In article <1991Feb8.180341.22098@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: > The NeXT has a final version of the 040. NeXT is the only >company currently receiving the 040 because they did all the >debugging for Motorola, kinda an inside deal. If there are any >bugs in it, they will be in everyone's. Uh, no offense, but I have it from a Motorola person (here in Austin were the 040 _is_) that there are still bugs in the chip. Apparently its possible to take an 040 NeXT down in flames with some pretty simple floating-point math. I'm not talking a core dump or segmentation fault. I'm talking Ka-BOOM. Maybe I'll test that if I get access to one [ :-) ]. If I was going to buy a NeXT, I'd wait until Motorola starts shipping in volume. They're really strict about releasing working chips. Have you ever wondered why they would hold out on shipping volume amounts of the 040 when everyone-and-their-dog wants one? Makes ya think about it, eh? > -- Ethan Greg -- -------Greg-Harp-------greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu-------s609@cs.utexas.edu------- "Confutatis maledictus "When the accursed have been counfounded Flammis acribus addictis, == And given over to the bitter flames, Voca me cum benedictis." -- Mozart Call me with the blessed."
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (02/09/91)
In article <4fb2b745.20b6d@apollo.HP.COM> rehrauer@apollo.HP.COM (Steve Rehrauer) writes: >In article <1991Feb8.180341.22098@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) writes: >> The NeXT has a final version of the 040. NeXT is the only >>company currently receiving the 040 because they did all the >>debugging for Motorola, kinda an inside deal. > > Sorry, the second statement is patently untrue. A number of systems > developers have been working with '040s for quite some time; NeXT is > far from the only "debugger" of this chip. > What I MEANT to say was accurate. 8-) According to many people I've heard from, NeXT has been having a much closer relation with Motorola than most, working directly with them to catch bugs. I didn't mean to imply that no other developers have them, just that NeXT had a special relationship and that they are reaping the benefits now. > And the fact that NeXT has apparently been shipping '040 NeXTstations > for some number of months leads me to believe that not only is the first > statement incorrect, but that they were either jumping through hoops to > avoid floating-point bugs or just plain not exercizing the chip very > well; not the sort of thing you'd want for your sole Q/A, I'd think. > It hasn't been "some number of months", more like 2. They've had demo units for a while but just recently began shipping finished units. And if NeXT isn't shipping the final 040, but some Beta, then they are in store for a LOT of lawsuits because they haven't told anyone. > What is true is that the supply of '040s is somewhat tight at the moment, > as Motorola ramps up and tries to satisfy pent-up demand (which was > created in large part by their tardiness in delivering working silicon). > >> If there are any >>bugs in it, they will be in everyone's. > > Motorola may very well decide that some bugs are too obscure to be > worth fixing (strictly speculation on my part). My impression is > that they're placing most of their resources into their 88k RISC line > these days. >-- >"The goons are riding motorcycles, but WE'VE | (Steve) rehrauer@apollo.hp.com > got a whole big metal car! This will be like | The Apollo Systems Division of > stepping on ants..." -- Freelance Police | Hewlett-Packard -- Ethan Q: What's the definition of a Quayle? A: Two right wings and no backbone.
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (02/09/91)
In article <43922@ut-emx.uucp> greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Greg Harp) writes: >In article <1991Feb8.180341.22098@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu > (Ethan Solomita) writes: >> The NeXT has a final version of the 040. NeXT is the only >>company currently receiving the 040 because they did all the >>debugging for Motorola, kinda an inside deal. If there are any >>bugs in it, they will be in everyone's. > >Uh, no offense, but I have it from a Motorola person (here in Austin were the >040 _is_) that there are still bugs in the chip. Apparently its possible to >take an 040 NeXT down in flames with some pretty simple floating-point math. >I'm not talking a core dump or segmentation fault. I'm talking Ka-BOOM. >Maybe I'll test that if I get access to one [ :-) ]. > >If I was going to buy a NeXT, I'd wait until Motorola starts shipping in >volume. They're really strict about releasing working chips. Have you ever >wondered why they would hold out on shipping volume amounts of the 040 when >everyone-and-their-dog wants one? Makes ya think about it, eh? > Greg, Motorola IS shipping 040s in volume. They began volume sales, as was announced here and in many places, over a month ago. I've seen the press-release. Nowhere did I say the 040 was bug-free! I simply said that the bugs that are left are left for everyone. >> -- Ethan > >Greg > >-- >-------Greg-Harp-------greg@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu-------s609@cs.utexas.edu------- >"Confutatis maledictus "When the accursed have been counfounded > Flammis acribus addictis, == And given over to the bitter flames, > Voca me cum benedictis." -- Mozart Call me with the blessed." -- Ethan Q: What's the definition of a Quayle? A: Two right wings and no backbone.
n368bq@tamuts.tamu.edu (Raoul Rodriguez) (02/09/91)
O.K., my understanding of the NeXT-'040 chip problems is this... The NeXT does not use the exec functions of the chip, and thereby does not need to worry about bugs therin, so, for the machines that have out, they may or may not be able to be crashed (I have hear reports that say it is real easy to make the machine just crash by a few floating point calculations, but not from anyone who has dome it..). What this implies to me is that, yes, NeXT will be able to get a '040 machine out faster than anyone else because... 1) They do not use the chip to its fullest potential (thus probably hanicapping their machines in the process) 2) The other companies (CBM, Mac, and even (gag) Atari) are not going to release a machine until the CPU is stable (a.k.a. shipping in great quantites, with very few reported bugs...) At that time, we should see a "slew" of machines out with the '040 chip that should increase the productivity of the machines, and also decrease the amount of hype and speculation on the net... Raoul "My 500 Has a Detachable Keyboard" Rodriguez n368bq@tamuts.tamu.edu Standard Disclaimers Apply (Within)