robbins@arcadien.rice.edu (Thomas Robbins) (03/04/91)
First of all, this is not intended to start a flame-war, merely some observations I've noted with a request for informative comments. I have been a die-hard Macintosh user for five years now, leading me to drop $5 K for a new Mac IIsi (the 20MHz 68030). I have been very pleased with _productivity_ software for what I do, which is university engineering work. I'm very pleased with: -Mac OS -Microsoft Word 4.0 -Excel 2.2 -MacDraw II -Matlab (Mac II version) -Mathematica (Mac II version) -Cricket Graph 1.3 However, I'm disappointed with the entertainment/sound/video. I have just been shocked at seeing a friend's Amiga 500, with its mere 7MHz 68000, for crying out loud, BLOW AWAY my 68030 Mac with the Amiga video clippings, sound/music emulation, and GAMES. (The color version of Falcon put my Mac version to shame!) And he had *hundreds* of cool games compared to maybe 4 comparable Mac games. What's the deal? My friend says that it's because it has built-in graphics co-processors. I'm actually considering buying one of these, to supplement my mac. (Heaven help me--a machine with DOS!) IS IT WORTH IT? I would use it only for games, but I worry at buying a machine that's already four years old, what with computer equipment being obsolete even before the ink on your check is dry. And heck, it's only about the price of a good modem! Thanks in advance for your help. -- Tom Robbins | "No, it's 'Blessed are the meek.' I think robbins@owlnet.rice.edu | that's nice, 'cause they really have a hell Senior, Chemical Engineering | of a time." Rice University | - someone in the crowd in "The Life of Brian"
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (03/04/91)
In article <1991Mar3.223546.12173@rice.edu> robbins@arcadien.rice.edu (Thomas Robbins) writes:
However, I'm disappointed with the entertainment/sound/video. I have
just been shocked at seeing a friend's Amiga 500, with its mere 7MHz
68000, for crying out loud, BLOW AWAY my 68030 Mac with the Amiga video
clippings, sound/music emulation, and GAMES. (The color version of
Falcon put my Mac version to shame!) And he had *hundreds* of cool
games compared to maybe 4 comparable Mac games.
What's the deal? My friend says that it's because it has built-in
graphics co-processors.
What's even more amazing is that the Amiga has been around since 1984.
I guess that's why people start up flame wars. It's 1991 and your
just getting the news. Personally, I can't believe Commodore made it
this far.
-Miketesst4@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Tobish E Smith) (03/04/91)
Wow. Bet you're going to get a lot of replies on this one! Anyway, my
roommate had an Amiga 2000 w/ 40 meg HD and I have a Mac II (8 meg RAM,
100 meg HD). My personal feelings after using his extensively is that
the Amgia just doesn't _feel_ right. I don't know how to quantify this.
Hardware-wise, I thought, "Wow, maybe I made a mistake," since the Amiga
cost so much less. But then I used the thing. A feeling of amateurishness
pervaded the entire system: the keyboard, the mouse, the operating system,
the speed of the hard drive. After using it, I realized _why_ the Mac costs
so much more. I would have killed for this machine when I was in high school,
being a way-cool hacker dude on my Apple ][. Indeed, this seems like a
prime use for Amigas, based on the plethora of swollen-ego, flashy-graphics
pirates' intros to crcked games ("KRACKED BY THE MUTILATOR!!!!!" in zillions
of colors flashing on the screen while some rockin' tune blasts out of the
speakers). And now, I suppose, I'm finally getting to the point of the
posting, namely, should you get one for games use? Guess it depends on what
you want to play. The upside of the Amiga, of course, is its ability to do
wondrous games. The downsides are 1. the infuriatingly slow disk drives,
and 2. the copy protection on _everything_. It's not bad enough that Steve's
hard drive seemed scarcely faster than my floppies. We couldn't even
install most games on the hard drive due to the copy-protection! Battle
Squadron, a great game, took minutes to start a new game after you died.
Got you pretty grumpy real quick. If you want to play adventures or RPGs
(Drakken is wonderful!), and you can live with the miserable i/o speed,
sure, get an Amiga. If, however, you're more interested in exploiting
its abilities to control many sprites and do great arcade games, go for
a Genesis, TG-16, or hell, even a Neo Geo instead. The loading of the games
is instantaneous, the controllers are better, and it's cheaper (except for
the NeoGeo ;-) ). In conclusion, I don't want to be too critical of the
Amiga itself. The hardware inside is very nice. However, almost all aspects
of the user interface (hardware and software), coupled with the slow drives,
really turned me off on the machine for now. If these things improve (and
if the _standard_ screen resolution ever evolves beyond 320X200) I think the
Amiga will be a great machine. Oh yeah. The users should start being
tres bitchy like Mac users about copy protection. The amount of CP in the
Amiga world is staggering.
Tob
tesst4@unix.cis.pitt.edu
gsm@gsm001.uucp (Geoffrey S. Mendelson) (03/04/91)
robbins@arcadien.rice.edu (Thomas Robbins) asks about the Amiga: > >What's the deal? My friend says that it's because it has built-in >graphics co-processors. The Amiga has built into it graphics and sound coprocessors. They make an Amiga with a 7 mhz 68000 equivalent to a 25mhz 68030/68882 Mac when it comes to video games. In other applications, the machine is slightly faster than a clasic Mac (or Mac Classic). It would not be very difficult to write (or port) the same games to a Mac II with a 68030 and 68882. A Mac IIfx would be an ideal machine. Since the people that buy games usually own "cheap" machines, it does not make a lot of sense to write a game for an $8000. computer. How many games do you think would sell if they had "For the Mac IIfx only" on the box. Since game developers know that every Amiga has these facilities, and there are more than 2 million Amiga's out there it makes a lot of sense (and cents) to develop these "whiz-bang" games for the Amiga and not the Mac. If these games are your cup of tea, then I would recommend getting an Amiga. There are many more of these games than will appear on the Mac market until the Mac LCx :-) with the optional 68882 board becomes popular. Before I bought an Amiga though, I would recommend looking at the soon to be shipped CDTV. In all forms it is an Amiga with a CD-ROM drive. The cheapest form will be a CD player box with an Amiga 500 under the covers. You have to add a keyboard, floppy drive, etc if you want to "compute" with it. I think that Commodore will have an external CDTV upgrade for the 500 also. > >I'm actually considering buying one of these, to supplement my mac. >(Heaven help me--a machine with DOS!) IS IT WORTH IT? Amiga-Dos as it is called is not MS-DOS. It is a very good multitasing operating system with a built in window interface. It also has a command line interface for people who prefer to type. Many people have switched from Macs to Amigas and vice versa because they prefered one over the other. Being a Mac person, you will be happier with an Amiga than with an IBM clone. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Geoffrey S. Mendelson | Computer Software Consulting | Dr. | | (215) 242-8712 | IBM Mainframes, Unix, PCs, Macs | Who | | uunet!gsm001!gsm | | Fan too!| ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- | WANTED: PAL VIDEO TAPES (VHS or BETA) inquire within. | | Especialy "missing" Dr Who Episodes. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
blgardne@javelin.es.com (Blaine Gardner) (03/04/91)
tesst4@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Tobish E Smith) writes: >cost so much less. But then I used the thing. A feeling of amateurishness >pervaded the entire system: the keyboard, the mouse, the operating system, >the speed of the hard drive. After using it, I realized _why_ the Mac costs Yes, Workbench 1.3 and earlier leave a lot to be desired, but Workbench 2.0 is at least the equal of any GUI on the market. As to the hard drive speed, surely you jest! Unless someone managed to get a dog-slow HD and controller on the Amiga (Possible, there are some bad ones out there), the Amiga simply flies compare to the Mac's pokey hard drive speeds. With the Quantum and Wren drives I've got on my A3000 I get between 900 and 1000 KBytes per second transfer rates, through the file system. And I've measured 1.9 MEGABYTES/second on a Fujitsu 1.2 GB drive I had on loan. As this line of discussion is going to burst into unrestrained flames, I've set the followup-to comp.sys.amiga.advocacy, is there a similar Mac group? -- Blaine Gardner @ Evans & Sutherland 580 Arapeen Drive, SLC, Utah 84108 blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com or ...dsd.es.com!javelin!blgardne DoD #0046 My other motorcycle is a Quadracer. BIX: blaine_g
ullevig@tramp.Colorado.EDU (Ullevig Zachary A) (03/04/91)
In article <1991Mar3.223546.12173@rice.edu> robbins@arcadien.rice.edu (Thomas Robbins) writes: >However, I'm disappointed with the entertainment/sound/video. I have >just been shocked at seeing a friend's Amiga 500, with its mere 7MHz >68000, for crying out loud, BLOW AWAY my 68030 Mac with the Amiga video >clippings, sound/music emulation, and GAMES. (The color version of >Falcon put my Mac version to shame!) And he had *hundreds* of cool >games compared to maybe 4 comparable Mac games. > >What's the deal? My friend says that it's because it has built-in >graphics co-processors. > >I'm actually considering buying one of these, to supplement my mac. >(Heaven help me--a machine with DOS!) IS IT WORTH IT? I would use it >only for games, but I worry at buying a machine that's already four >years old, what with computer equipment being obsolete even before the >ink on your check is dry. And heck, it's only about the price of a good >modem! > >Thanks in advance for your help. > Think about the target market for each machine. The Amiga computers are not designed to be great computers, but they are designed to take a big chunck out of the game market. They don't have much power, but they are given great graphics and sound to make for good game machines. Macs are too expensive to buy simply as a game computer, so less games are made for the macs and most mac users don't care that there are no graphics co-processors. ______________________________________________________________________________ | Zach Ullevig | "I like maxims that don't | | University of Colorado | encourage behavior modification." | | ullevig@tramp.colorado.edu | --Calvin | |____________________________________________________________________________|
fstuart@eng.auburn.edu (Frank Stuart) (03/04/91)
In article <1991Mar4.013846.26519@gsm001.uucp> gsm@gsm001.uucp (Geoffrey S. Mendelson) writes: >>I'm actually considering buying one of these, to supplement my mac. >>(Heaven help me--a machine with DOS!) IS IT WORTH IT? > > >Amiga-Dos as it is called is not MS-DOS. It is a very good multitasing >operating system with a built in window interface. It also has a command >line interface for people who prefer to type. Many people have switched >from Macs to Amigas and vice versa because they prefered one over the other. > >Being a Mac person, you will be happier with an Amiga than with an IBM >clone. >-- >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >| Geoffrey S. Mendelson | Computer Software Consulting | Dr. | >| (215) 242-8712 | IBM Mainframes, Unix, PCs, Macs | Who | >| uunet!gsm001!gsm | | Fan too!| >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >| WANTED: PAL VIDEO TAPES (VHS or BETA) inquire within. | >| Especialy "missing" Dr Who Episodes. | >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't forget AMAXII and bridgeboards. These allow you to actually "be" either a Mac (running slightly faster than a Mac Plus) or an I*M clone (for those of you with a keen interest in spreadsheets ;>) --Frank fstuart@eng.auburn.edu
dbert@mole.ai.mit.edu (Douglas Siebert) (03/04/91)
In article <1991Mar4.013846.26519@gsm001.uucp> gsm@gsm001.uucp (Geoffrey S. Mendelson) writes: >robbins@arcadien.rice.edu (Thomas Robbins) asks about the Amiga: >> >>What's the deal? My friend says that it's because it has built-in >>graphics co-processors. > >The Amiga has built into it graphics and sound coprocessors. They make an >Amiga with a 7 mhz 68000 equivalent to a 25mhz 68030/68882 Mac when it comes >to video games. In other applications, the machine is slightly faster than >a clasic Mac (or Mac Classic). I don't see why anyone thinks this is very unusual....after all, many of the same people who designed the Amiga and made it what it is today also designed the 8-bit Ataris. Both were designed with co-processors to take the workload off the main CPU, and both were designed to be great with both graphics and sound. Both similiarly have ignored getting their computers recognized as being intended for very "serious" use. I still have a working 8-bit Atari which I still used occasionally up until a couple months ago when I got my Mac. One of the main reasons I chose a Mac and not an Amiga w/Mac emulation is that I remembered that trying to find *anything* software or hardware wise for the Atari became all but impossible a couple years ago, while the old Apple IIs are still alive (though barely!) Macs have found their way into businesses and Universities, while Amigas, with few exceptions, have not. Ten years from now, when the Mac "Classic" is a box containing a 80MHz 68040, 64M RAM and a 4G HD, Amigas will probably sit down in basements like my 8-bit Atari does. With it's color graphics and co-processors to support it's 1.79MHz 6502, it can play better games than my Mac Plus can. But when I want to do serious work.... -- ________________________________________________________________________ Doug Siebert dbert@albert.ai.mit.edu MBA Student (2nd year) The University of Iowa
dave@cs.arizona.edu (Dave P. Schaumann) (03/04/91)
This is all a very nice & civilized discussion, but could I ask everyone who feels obligated to follow up a favor? This thread is currently being cross-posted to *4* different groups, which IMHO is at least 2 too many. I'm setting followups of this post to comp.sys.amiga.advocacy (the Amiga group where this most properly belongs), and comp.sys.mac.misc. Please, please, pretty please with a 68040 on top, please set followups!! Thank you for your support. -- Dave Schaumann dave@cs.arizona.edu 'Dog Gang'! Where do they get off calling us the 'Dog Gang'? I'm beginning to think the party's over. I'm beginning to think maybe we don't need a dog. Or maybe we need a *new* dog. Or maybe we need a *cat*! - Amazing Stories
david@kessner.denver.co.us (David Kessner) (03/04/91)
In article <98707@unix.cis.pitt.edu> tesst4@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Tobish E Smith) writes: >Wow. Bet you're going to get a lot of replies on this one! Anyway, my >roommate had an Amiga 2000 w/ 40 meg HD and I have a Mac II (8 meg RAM, >100 meg HD). My personal feelings after using his extensively is that >the Amgia just doesn't _feel_ right. I don't know how to quantify this. >Hardware-wise, I thought, "Wow, maybe I made a mistake," since the Amiga >cost so much less. But then I used the thing. A feeling of amateurishness >pervaded the entire system: the keyboard, the mouse, the operating system, >the speed of the hard drive. (stuff deleted) >Tob - tesst4@unix.cis.pitt.edu Although I am not a Mac fan, and not anti-Amiga-- I have to agree with this observation. The windowing system isnt as refined as other computers, especally on the low-res screens. The mouse is a bit clunky, and the new mouse that comes with the A3000UX is not much better. The software is a bit remanicent of the C-64 where everyone has their own way of doing things, with flashy logos and "cute" touches. All of these combine to give the Amiga a less-than-professional _feel_. And can leave the user with a negative opinion of the computer. There are many useful programs that are worthwhile (on the Amiga), now their programers should refine them. Workbench 2.0 is a nice start, but there is a long way to go. Notice how none of this says anything about ther usefullness of the computer. But just how it presents itself. Here is where the other computers have a big benifit-- like the Mac, Sparcs, NeXT, and even MS-Windows. These problems will improve over time, but it will go faster if it is publicly acknoledged. - David K -- David Kessner - david@kessner.denver.co.us | do { 1135 Fairfax, Denver CO 80220 (303) 377-1801 (p.m.) | . . . This is my system so I can say any damn thing I want! | } while( jones);
jmunkki@hila.hut.fi (Juri Munkki) (03/04/91)
In article <1991Mar3.223546.12173@rice.edu> robbins@arcadien.rice.edu (Thomas Robbins) writes: >However, I'm disappointed with the entertainment/sound/video. I have >just been shocked at seeing a friend's Amiga 500, with its mere 7MHz >68000, for crying out loud, BLOW AWAY my 68030 Mac with the Amiga video >clippings, sound/music emulation, and GAMES. > >What's the deal? My friend says that it's because it has built-in >graphics co-processors. This group has been through this discussion a few times, but I feel that it might be time to talk about these things again. The real bottleneck on our fast 68030-based machines is NuBUS. NuBUS video cards have an effective RAM access time of 300 ns. Compare this with 120 ns on the Mac II and 80 ns on the IIci. There is no way to get faster access to the video card, so changing a large area on the screen is quite hard to do without a coprocessor sitting on the video card. The Amiga is much more powerful for game graphics for several reasons. First, it has the grahics coprocessor chips that allow easy double buffering and quick access to bitmaps. Second, it doesn't use "chunky" pixel maps. The amiga has separate bitplanes for each bit in the pixel. If you want to change 32 pixels on the screen and you want to do it really quickly, you do not need to change more than 32 bits. Of course one has hardware sprites to work with too. While they are somewhat limited, they are just fine for most games. (Disclaimer: I've never programmed the Amiga. I was just _very_ interested when I first read about the Lorraine computer from Amiga Inc.) This doesn't mean that you can't develop good games for the Macintosh. It just means that if a games programmer wants to write games, he/she will more probably either choose the amiga, because it's so nice to work with or the PC, because you can make more money with PC games. >I'm actually considering buying one of these, to supplement my mac. >(Heaven help me--a machine with DOS!) IS IT WORTH IT? I would use it >only for games, but I worry at buying a machine that's already four >years old, what with computer equipment being obsolete even before the >ink on your check is dry. And heck, it's only about the price of a good >modem! A graphics accelerator will probably make your normal applications work faster, but most games will not benefit from it. People will certainly not start developing games just because you bought a graphics accelerator. Let me tell you about Project STORM. I said that you can't modify large areas on the screen. The Mac also comes in a large variety of screen sizes and depths. The most typical depth on color macs is probably 8 bits/pixel, so that's what STORM currently supports. The remaining problem is to limit the amount of data to move to and from the card and to make the game scale up nicely on a 19" high resolution monitor. The solution that was chosen for STORM was to use vector graphics. Vectors are thin lines, so only a small percentage of the pixels on the screen need modification even when a large amount of animation appears to be happening on the screen. Vector games are also extremely easy to scale to any screen size. Project STORM works equally well on a 320x200 screen (who knows, maybe there will be a PC or Amiga version with low resolution support) as on a two page 2048x1024 monitor. (A faster processor is recommended for large screens, but you can do very well without.) We are now very close to completion. The game does 20 frames of double buffered color animation. We are compatible with multifinder background tasks running or even under A/UX. All you need is an 8 bit video card. (IIci, si and LC internal video cards work too, of course.) We are going to look for a publisher for STORM, the first demo copy will go out on Friday. (To beta testers: don't worry, I'll send you a new version soon [tomorrow or Wednesday]. You haven't been forgotten.) It is quite possible that the animation toolkit that I wrote will be available as shareware (with a license agreement for commercial stuff). It's possible to support the Sega 3D glasses with the animation kit, so after STORM is ready, I'll start working on a game that allows you to use the glasses for stereo 3D. (I have a few ideas, but nothing concrete yet...maybe a tank game.) One more thing: If you want more games for the Mac, start buying what there is now. Remember to pay for shareware games too. By supporting Mac game developers, you will increase the odds of them writing more games. So, use your money for the games, not the accelerator. Macintosh graphics accelerators are very different from the amiga chips anyway. ____________________________________________________________________________ / Juri Munkki / Helsinki University of Technology / Wind / Project / / jmunkki@hut.fi / Computing Center Macintosh Support / Surf / STORM / ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
melling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (03/04/91)
In article <1991Mar4.022332.8904@csn.org> ullevig@tramp.Colorado.EDU (Ullevig Zachary A) writes:
Think about the target market for each machine. The Amiga computers are not
designed to be great computers, but they are designed to take a big chunck out
of the game market. They don't have much power, but they are given great
graphics and sound to make for good game machines. Macs are too expensive to
buy simply as a game computer, so less games are made for the macs and most
mac users don't care that there are no graphics co-processors.
Having dedicated hardware to handle graphics, sound, DMA, etc. is a
great idea. That's why Apple and several third party companies sell
graphic accelerators for the Mac. Apple even put a 6502 in the Mac
IIfx so that it can have DMA. Of course you need Unix to actually use
it. You would think that the Amiga would be more expensive than the
Mac since it has all that extra hardware.
Try thinking of other things you can do with great graphics besides
games. Multimedia ring a bell? Hypercard 2.0 might include direct
color support if the Mac had graphics hardware. MacroMind Director...
-Mike
BTW: I'm not an Amiga weenie, I'm a NeXT weenie. But you do have to
give credit where it is due.talso@leo.unm.edu (Daniel Talso) (03/04/91)
What the fuck is this? They guy already have a Mac, he wanted your opinions on Amiga as a game machine, that was all he wanted to know not something like my Mac is better than your Amiga, or My Amiga is faster than your Mac!!!!
raible@cbmvax.commodore.com (Bob Raible - LSI Design) (03/04/91)
In article <1991Mar4.030134.7183@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> dbert@mole.ai.mit.edu (Douglas Siebert) writes: > >I don't see why anyone thinks this is very unusual....after all, many of the >same people who designed the Amiga and made it what it is today also >designed the 8-bit Ataris. Both were designed with co-processors to take >the workload off the main CPU, and both were designed to be great with both >graphics and sound. Both similiarly have ignored getting their computers >recognized as being intended for very "serious" use. I still have a working >8-bit Atari which I still used occasionally up until a couple months ago when >I got my Mac. One of the main reasons I chose a Mac and not an Amiga w/Mac >emulation is that I remembered that trying to find *anything* software or >hardware wise for the Atari became all but impossible a couple years ago, >while the old Apple IIs are still alive (though barely!) Macs have found their >way into businesses and Universities, while Amigas, with few exceptions, >have not. > In fact Jay Miner (former Atari guru) and Co. designed the Amiga to be the ultimate game machine. It wasn't until CBM came along that the decision was made to make a personal computer out of it. Soon afterwards it got kinda silly with certain influential upper management types deciding to take the Amiga upscale. The result was a marketing fiasco, the A1000. This was to some extent corrected by the subsequent design and release of the A500 and A2000. Though both machine shared almost identical guts, they did a better job of addressing the needs of two different market segments. Oh yeah, before I get flamed by the 150K diehard A1000 fans out there, I think the A1000 is as neat as you all do. I just feel it was marketed all wrong. The A500 did much better in the marketplace and the revenue it has produced has in large part made it possible for us to keep pumping out new high end machines. It also makes it financially feasible for the software developers to write all kinds of really neat game software. Also since the architecture has been around for five years they have gotten really sophisticated about wringing out the maximum performance out of our hardware. I worked for TI consumer before I joined Commodore, and I've seen this phenomenon occur with the 99/4 as well as CBM's C64. It takes a while for the game writers to write good code on new hardware and figure out the shortcuts. >________________________________________________________________________ >Doug Siebert dbert@albert.ai.mit.edu >MBA Student (2nd year) >The University of Iowa
mpierce@ewu.UUCP (Mathew Pierce) (03/04/91)
In article <98707@unix.cis.pitt.edu>, tesst4@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Tobish E Smith) writes: [stuff about Amiga HD's being as slow as Mac's floppy deleted] I have the same feeling, but just the opposite! When I use the Mac at school, I am amazed at how slow it is! It seems like my amiga's floppies are as fast as the Mac's hard drives! > hard drive seemed scarcely faster than my floppies. We couldn't even > install most games on the hard drive due to the copy-protection! Battle I agree with you on the CP, it's insane but with the number of pirate dirtbags out there, some people go to extremes! > Amiga itself. The hardware inside is very nice. However, almost all aspects > of the user interface (hardware and software), coupled with the slow drives, Your roomy must have had a slow controller and/or HD because the Amiga beats the pants off of Mac when it comes to HD speed. > if the _standard_ screen resolution ever evolves beyond 320X200) I think the You really should get your facts straight and try to nail down what you mean by "standard", because all of my apps run in 640*200 default, unless I set them to 640*400. There are 4 standard resolutions - 320*200, 320*400,640*200 640*400, not to mention the overscan modes, but then I bet you didn't know that. > Tob > tesst4@unix.cis.pitt.edu Matt Pierce
mpierce@ewu.UUCP (Mathew Pierce) (03/04/91)
In article <1991Mar4.022332.8904@csn.org>, ullevig@tramp.Colorado.EDU (Ullevig Zachary A) writes: > In article <1991Mar3.223546.12173@rice.edu> robbins@arcadien.rice.edu (Thomas Robbins) writes: [stuff about how friends A500 w/ 68000 blows away own MacII in games deleteed.] > > Think about the target market for each machine. The Amiga computers are not > designed to be great computers, but they are designed to take a big chunck out > of the game market. They don't have much power, but they are given great > graphics and sound to make for good game machines. Macs are too expensive to > buy simply as a game computer, so less games are made for the macs and most > mac users don't care that there are no graphics co-processors. It's ignorant statements made by ignorant bozo's like the one above that get flame wars going, so let me oblige you...bozo... The amiga runs the same CPUs as the Macs, so there is no power lacking there. With the coprocessors working in parrallel with the cpu, it's like two people working on a job instead of one. Now you can't tell me that you by your little ol' lonesome can stack a truck of hay faster than me and my able bodied brother, so don't go tellin' me that your computer can draw stuff, access drives, access comunication ports, or what have you faster than my computer with multiple processors on the job. Now what do you think that great game playing machines have to be to be real fun??? They got to have performance, the more the better!! If your computer can't perform as well at games, while it's running a better CPU, you tell me - which machine is lacking in the power area??? I'll give you a hint - it starts with M, and its name is part of the name of a big ol' greasey burger you can get at a place that also starts with an 'M'. Got that.....bozo Oh, here's the smiley so that I don't get flamed :^) > ______________________________________________________________________________ > | Zach Ullevig | "I like maxims that don't | > | University of Colorado | encourage behavior modification." | > | ullevig@tramp.colorado.edu | --Calvin | > |____________________________________________________________________________|
jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu (John 'Vlad' Adams) (03/04/91)
In article <98707@unix.cis.pitt.edu> tesst4@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Tobish E Smith) writes: >Wow. Bet you're going to get a lot of replies on this one! Anyway, my >roommate had an Amiga 2000 w/ 40 meg HD and I have a Mac II (8 meg RAM, >100 meg HD). My personal feelings after using his extensively is that >the Amgia just doesn't _feel_ right. I don't know how to quantify this. You are welcomed to this opinion. That's why we have the "BIG THREE" of the personal computers -- Apple, Commodore, and IBM. However, my personal feelings are how can someone feel comfortable with a machine that doesn't have a CLI or arrow keys? >Hardware-wise, I thought, "Wow, maybe I made a mistake," since the Amiga >cost so much less. But then I used the thing. A feeling of amateurishness >pervaded the entire system: the keyboard, the mouse, the operating system, >the speed of the hard drive. I use the "Big Three" extensively at home and at work. I don't see the "amateurishness" in any of the three you've mentioned. The keyboard is solid enough for me to maintain a sustained typing speed of 80 CPS. The mouse tracks quite well, and having two buttons (or the option of three) allows more choices in a GUI (especially X-Windows.) And I have to call you out on your insult of the OS. The Amiga is the only PC with a native real-time multitasking pre-emptive OS. There is hardly anything amateurish about it, especially with the power of the message ports within Intuition. Let's take the hardware a step further. Rather than burdening the CPU with maintaining the display, a co-processor generates the graphics. Want to do animation on a Mac? Better have an 030, else you'll have time to run to the corner store for some IBC rootbeer. :) >After using it, I realized _why_ the Mac costs so much more. Now wait a minute. The Mac series could be sold for *MUCH* less. It has simply been Apple's policy since the Apple II to charge a high profit. Come on, the Apple //e still lists for over $800, and it's a highly limited 8bit micro. For that price, one can purchase a 286 clone or an Amiga 500. (Not to mention almost puchasing a Mac Classic.) >Indeed, this seems like a >prime use for Amigas Sure, hacking is one of the uses on an Amiga. But it's not the only. It's *the* machine for desktop video, especially with the advent of the Video Toaster. It is also the most efficient system for running a multi-line BBS (due to it's native OS.) The Amiga does a pretty damn good job at running System V R4 as well. >, based on the plethora of swollen-ego, flashy-graphics >pirates' intros to crcked games ("KRACKED BY THE MUTILATOR!!!!!" in zillions >of colors flashing on the screen while some rockin' tune blasts out of the >speakers). Tich Tich. I've seen pirated cracked games on the Mac with "flashy screens" as well. >And now, I suppose, I'm finally getting to the point of the >posting, namely, should you get one for games use? I couldn't answer this, since I use my Amiga for running a BBS and developing C code at the same time. >The downsides are 1. the infuriatingly slow disk drives, This is the one point I'll grant you. The floppies are slow, although that's been alleviated under AmigaDOS 2.0 with the fast filing system on floppies. >and 2. the copy protection on _everything_. Wrongo. None of the software I run is copy protected. >It's not bad enough that Steve's >hard drive seemed scarcely faster than my floppies. Sounds like Steve didn't have his system set up correctly. I get 820 kilobytes per second transfer rates on my HD. A friend gets 1.5 MB/second on his, but then he has 700 meg HDs opposed to my 40 and 105 meggers. >We couldn't even >install most games on the hard drive due to the copy-protection! Battle >Squadron, a great game, took minutes to start a new game after you died. >Got you pretty grumpy real quick. If you want to play adventures or RPGs >(Drakken is wonderful!), and you can live with the miserable i/o speed, >sure, get an Amiga. Oh, so now you are only moaning about the *GAMES* being copy protected. Big deal. I could care less about the games. >In conclusion, I don't want to be too critical of the >Amiga itself. The hardware inside is very nice. However, almost all aspects >of the user interface (hardware and software), coupled with the slow drives, >really turned me off on the machine for now. If these things improve (and >if the _standard_ screen resolution ever evolves beyond 320X200) I think the >Amiga will be a great machine. Oh yeah. The users should start being >tres bitchy like Mac users about copy protection. The amount of CP in the >Amiga world is staggering. Perhaps you ought to try another round with someone else's Amiga. Oh, Steve might want to take his machine in. I regularly run mine in 660x540 mode. -- John M. Adams --****-- Professional Student /// Internet: jma@reef.cis.ufl.edu Genie: vlad /// Only the Amiga Sysop of The Beachside, Amiga BBS, Paragon 2.0858 \\V// Makes it Possible Fido Net 1:3612/557. 904-492-2305 (Florida) \X/
jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu (John 'Vlad' Adams) (03/04/91)
In article <1991Mar4.022332.8904@csn.org> ullevig@tramp.Colorado.EDU (Ullevig Zachary A) writes: > >Think about the target market for each machine. The Amiga computers are not >designed to be great computers, but they are designed to take a big chunck out >of the game market. They don't have much power, but they are given great >graphics and sound to make for good game machines. Macs are too expensive to >buy simply as a game computer, so less games are made for the macs and most >mac users don't care that there are no graphics co-processors. The Amiga, with it's open architecture, is made to be anything one makes of it. How can you say they don't have much power what with the Agnus, Paula and Denice custom DMA co-processors. The Amiga 3000 can hardly be called low power with it's 030 and 882. If that's not fast enough, an 030 clocked at 50MHz is available for the 2000 series and the 3000 series has a slot waiting for the 040. It costs half as much to run a 3000UX (System V R4) vs. a IIFX with A-UX 2.0. And if the Mac had a graphics co-processor, EVERY user would notice since everything on the Mac is dependent on the graphics! Gawd, I should have known it would be a mistake subscribing to the Mac groups. All I'm reading are incorrect statements about the Amiga. Equipiping an Amiga 2000 with an 030 card costs a lot less than an 0 > > >______________________________________________________________________________ >| Zach Ullevig | "I like maxims that don't | >| University of Colorado | encourage behavior modification." | >| ullevig@tramp.colorado.edu | --Calvin | >|____________________________________________________________________________| -- John M. Adams --****-- Professional Student /// Internet: jma@reef.cis.ufl.edu Genie: vlad /// Only the Amiga Sysop of The Beachside, Amiga BBS, Paragon 2.0858 \\V// Makes it Possible Fido Net 1:3612/557. 904-492-2305 (Florida) \X/
felixh@sunspot.ssl.berkeley.edu (Felix Hack) (03/04/91)
Expires: Sender: Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: /etc/organization Keywords: Well, at the risk of ignoring all these flames and things, let me just point out that last year a friend of mine, who has a Mac SE, saw my Amiga 500, was impressed, very impressed, and then bought a 500 for himself. He uses it only for games, but we can't fault him too much, can we? He's not a computer hacker, nor is he interested in learning another OS after the Mac's (I know, I know, the Mac is for idiots, oops, no it's the most elegant thing around, no WB 2.0 is, is not, is too . . . .) Put simply, if you can get a good price, buy an Amiga 500. You'll like it a lot.
cg@ami-cg.UUCP (Chris Gray) (03/04/91)
Asside from using an Amiga to play the neato games, you might consider one if you are interested in programming. It takes a while to get into it (there are LOTS of system and library routines on the Amiga), but it can be quite rewarding. I'm basically a programming junkie, and I love doing some of the things that the Amiga system lets me do. Things that would be much less pleasant on MSDOS or a Mac. My current project is a MUD (Multi-User-Dungeon) which lets several people play at once (connecting over serial ports or whatever other methods you have). All events are asynchronous, and I'm using a client/server model with message passing. This sort of setup is, as near as I can figure, the only reasonable way to do what I want to do. To the best of my knowledge, it would be pretty well impossible under MSDOS or on the Mac (I REFUSE to take over the machine - I want to leave the standard multi-tasking available). I could probably do much the same thing under OS/2, but it would never run on a $600 computer there! Another aspect of the Amiga that I find neat is that you can be busy typing commands into a pretty standard shell (like edit-compile-link-test, etc.), and then with a couple of keystrokes pop into a full colour game with sprites, sounds, lots of action, etc. Games that let you do that are still not all that common, but they are coming. Anything I do will certainly let you do it, since I develop and test while sitting in the same chair. Its an aspect that not too many people need, be I sure missed it on the mono- chrome Sun workstations! [Quit rambling, Chris - you're off topic!!] -- Chris Gray alberta!ami-cg!cg or cg%ami-cg@pembina.cs.UAlberta.CA
amhartma@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Andy Hartman - AmigaMan) (03/05/91)
God, I said that I wouldn't get into this... In article <1991Mar4.030134.7183@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> dbert@mole.ai.mit.edu (Douglas Siebert) writes: >I don't see why anyone thinks this is very unusual....after all, many of the >same people who designed the Amiga and made it what it is today also >designed the 8-bit Ataris. Both were designed with co-processors to take >the workload off the main CPU, and both were designed to be great with both >graphics and sound. Both similiarly have ignored getting their computers >recognized as being intended for very "serious" use. I still have a working >8-bit Atari which I still used occasionally up until a couple months ago when >I got my Mac. One of the main reasons I chose a Mac and not an Amiga w/Mac >emulation is that I remembered that trying to find *anything* software or >hardware wise for the Atari became all but impossible a couple years ago, >while the old Apple IIs are still alive (though barely!) Macs have found their >way into businesses and Universities, while Amigas, with few exceptions, >have not. Kind of agree on this, but not really. The Amiga and the Mac both have different places in business. The Mac is used by companies as a PC while the Amiga is used by universities as a UNIX box and by cable companies to control what you see on TV. Each has their place, but they are different. >Ten years from now, when the Mac "Classic" is a box containing a 80MHz >68040, 64M RAM and a 4G HD, Amigas will probably sit down in basements >like my 8-bit Atari does. With it's color graphics and co-processors to >support it's 1.79MHz 6502, it can play better games than my Mac Plus can. >But when I want to do serious work.... Boy, do I dare respond to this?!? YES! Do you really think that Apple is going to spend their money on upgrading the classic? I'm sure that that statement was meant in jest, but c'mon... This just shows the kind of infantile response as to a question of their computer's adequacy. As an reader of the Amiga boards, I've changed the distribution to the two main groups (c.s.a.m, and c.s.m.m) and redirected followups to comp.sys.amiga.advocacy. I would appreciate other posters doing the same. >Doug Siebert dbert@albert.ai.mit.edu AMH -- * Andy Hartman | I'd deny half of this crap anyway!| "Somedays, you just * Indiana University | amhartma@silver.ucs.indiana.edu | can't get rid of a * // Amiga Man | AMHARTMA@rose.ucs.indiana.edu | bomb!" * \X/ At Large! | or just "Hey putz!" | - Batman (original)
maxc1553@ucselx.sdsu.edu (InnerTangent - human1) (03/05/91)
I noticed that the mac people in this discussion always compare their more expansive equipments with amiga 500. Why don't you mac-heads be fair for a change and compare the still-more- expansive mac plus with A500; and compare A3000 with your high-end-macs. Personally, I know that I prefer A500. My reasons are: I like graphics, music, and awsome demos/games. They are pleasant to watch/hear, and fun to play. I believe that my A500 is good/fair in almost everything. and for you business-only macintosher types, let me point out that Business if fine, but it's not everything. I uses my Amiga500 at home, as a 'Personal Computer'. a personal computer is NOT only a business computer. It should be personal enough to entertain you, please you, help you remember, help your school work, and of course, help you simplify your business work. My Macintosh emulator let me do almost everything a overpriced-macSE can do, with some inconvience (like loading up the emulator first). But it will do just fine. I use the emulator mainly for school work - LightSpeed Pascal, LightSpeed C. (But I feel so boxed-in when the emulator is running - I missed the flexabilities of amiga's multitasking environment. I am sorry that fellow mac'ers can't share this, because multifinder is a joke - not meant as an insult) I'm sure you must have a reason for owning your computer. We all do. But, please make sure you are fair in your arguments. And, learn enough about the other computer before you immaturely comment about it. Thank you. -- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in the rain. + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + (*) Maxc1553@ucselx.sdsu.edu (*) Billy - InnerTangent - Human1 +
es1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Ethan Solomita) (03/05/91)
In article <98707@unix.cis.pitt.edu> tesst4@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Tobish E Smith) writes: >Wow. Bet you're going to get a lot of replies on this one! Anyway, my >roommate had an Amiga 2000 w/ 40 meg HD and I have a Mac II (8 meg RAM, >100 meg HD). My personal feelings after using his extensively is that >the Amgia just doesn't _feel_ right. I don't know how to quantify this. >Hardware-wise, I thought, "Wow, maybe I made a mistake," since the Amiga >cost so much less. But then I used the thing. A feeling of amateurishness >pervaded the entire system: the keyboard, the mouse, the operating system, >the speed of the hard drive. After using it, I realized _why_ the Mac costs >so much more. I would have killed for this machine when I was in high school, The person may have bought a very cheap 40MB HD, but the one that Commodore sells is a 19ms Quantum and the speed is excellent. Depending on how old the HD/controller of your roommate's was, or cheap, that could've affected it. The mouse and keyboard are personally taste, but a lot of people like them and a lot of people don't. Those are things that just can't satisfy everyone. Too personal. As to the OS, 2.0 has been out on 3000s and for developers since last summer and should be burned into rom for all Amigas this spring. -- Ethan Upon leaving office, Ronald Reagan began renting an office in the penthouse of the Fox Plaza, the Los Angeles high-rise used as the location for the terrorist movie "Die Hard".
kenh@hscfsas1.harvard.edu (Ken Hancock) (03/05/91)
In article <1991Mar4.184750.27373@ucselx.sdsu.edu> maxc1553@ucselx.sdsu.edu (InnerTangent - human1) writes: >I noticed that the mac people in this discussion always compare their more >expansive equipments with amiga 500. > >Why don't you mac-heads be fair for a change and compare the still-more- >expansive mac plus with A500; and compare A3000 with your high-end-macs. Because we mac-heads are talking about the Amiga 500 as a game machine. It's great for games -- specifically for the reasons stated. The built-in coprocessors make graphics and sound fly. I only wish that Apple would do the same for the mac. Even a simple bit-blitter in hardward would enable the mac to do some cool games. The demo of OIDS comes as close as I've seen to decent annimation on the mac. Ken -- Ken Hancock | INTERNET: kenh@hscfsas1.harvard.edu Isle Systems | Compuserve: >INTERNET:kenh@hscfsas1.harvard.edu Macintosh Consulting | AOL: KHancock | Disclaimer: My opinions are mine, | your opinions are yours. Simple, isn't it?
dsherif@libserv1.ic.sunysb.edu (Darin D Sheriff) (03/05/91)
> >Think about the target market for each machine. The Amiga computers are not >designed to be great computers, but they are designed to take a big chunck out Come again??!! Are you for real? Could you explain how you arrived at your conclusion? >of the game market. They don't have much power, but they are given great >graphics and sound to make for good game machines. Macs are too expensive to Obviously an opinion based on little or no knowledge of the subject at hand. As for 'game machines'. If people wants to make games for these machines becuase their built in goodies makes them ideal for games, that's their affair. The point I am trying to make is that their talents for graphics and sounds can be, and are used for other purposes other than games. >buy simply as a game computer, so less games are made for the macs and most >mac users don't care that there are no graphics co-processors. This is an assumption on your part. > >______________________________________________________________________________ >| Zach Ullevig | "I like maxims that don't | >| University of Colorado | encourage behavior modification." | >| ullevig@tramp.colorado.edu | --Calvin | >|____________________________________________________________________________| A list of all known amigas out there for those not in the know. Commodore makes their amigas in several flavors, Amiga 1000. Discontinued but very usable. (I still have and use one) Amiga 500 (made for the average user in mind, though many professionals use them as well. Amiga 2000 For the professional though many induviduals use them also. Amiga 2500 and Amiga 3000 and Amiga 3000UX - These are very powerfull machines comparable to the Mac II line. There are many powerfull pieces of software and hardware that make use of these machines' capabilities. Not that everything in Amigaland is a bed of roses; its not, but in no respect are these machines inferior. So my misguided friend, do some research before you post. -- Darin Sheriff; Amiga 1000 owner. dsherif@csserv2.ic.sunysb.edu People don't pirate software. Computers pirate software. Disclaimer: It wasn't me. It was Chucky. He did it.
t22918@ursa.calvin.edu (Matt Ranney) (03/05/91)
maxc1553@ucselx.sdsu.edu (InnerTangent - human1) writes: >I'm sure you must have a reason for owning your computer. We all do. >But, please make sure you are fair in your arguments. And, learn enough >about the other computer before you immaturely comment about it. >Thank you. Thank _you_ This is a voice of reason that we've all been in need of. "Micro Bashing" as it's been called, has taken place for quite a while, among several different computers. The fact is: different computers are for different things. If you want to you use your computer for something, and an IBM is the best computer to do the job, by all means, go buy a clone. For what I do, the Amiga is the best computer. (Yes, that does include alot of gaming and music qriting/listening) -- Matt Ranney mranney@wybbs.mi.org t22918@ursa.calvin.edu mranney@mole.ai.mit.edu (or any other FSF machine)
bkuo@girtab.usc.edu (Benjamin Kuo) (03/05/91)
I agree with several of the posters in previous messages--LIMIT THIS THREAD! Despite the original message's plea for just opinions on getting an Amiga 500 for games, this is starting to degenerate into another flame-war. People are not reading the articles, drawing conclusions, and I see an imminent deluge of uninformed articles flowing from these message threads! Could we kill this thread, before it gets out of hand? Or at least limit the newsgroups to at most two. We're even bickering about hard drive speeds, which are VERY SUBJECTIVE to the HD manufacturer, NOT THE COMPUTER. My hard drive has an access of 19ms, but when I hook up another, slower 40ms access time drive, of course it slows--but does that make the same machine slower? Not a chance. I hope this doesn't provoke flames, but instead limits this thread. It's just an enormous pain to pick out four articles you're interested in out of a glut of fifty or sixty... :-)
farren@sat.com (Michael J. Farren) (03/05/91)
raible@cbmvax.commodore.com writes: >In fact Jay Miner (former Atari guru) and Co. designed the Amiga to be >the ultimate game machine. It wasn't until CBM came along that the >decision was made to make a personal computer out of it. Oy vey! Perhaps Commodore should print a little pamphlet for its employees, with a little history in it... The Amiga was evolved into a personal computer some time before Commodore ever got their hands on it. I have in my possession a complete set of Amiga documentation from 1983-1984, when Amiga, Inc. was simply that, and it shows an Amiga with a keyboard, 5-1/4" floppy drive, memory expansion slot (on the top of the case, so that expansion modules could be "stacked"), and several other attributes of a personal computer. While it might have started out as a simple game machine, it was much more than that before the advent of CBM. -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael J. Farren farren@sat.com | | He's moody, but he's cute. | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
raible@cbmvax.commodore.com (Bob Raible - LSI Design) (03/05/91)
In article <1991Mar05.010601.18832@sat.com> farren@sat.com (Michael J. Farren) writes: >raible@cbmvax.commodore.com writes: >>In fact Jay Miner (former Atari guru) and Co. designed the Amiga to be >>the ultimate game machine. It wasn't until CBM came along that the >>decision was made to make a personal computer out of it. > >Oy vey! Perhaps Commodore should print a little pamphlet for its employees, >with a little history in it... > >The Amiga was evolved into a personal computer some time before Commodore >ever got their hands on it. I have in my possession a complete set of Amiga >documentation from 1983-1984, when Amiga, Inc. was simply that, and it shows >an Amiga with a keyboard, 5-1/4" floppy drive, memory expansion slot (on >the top of the case, so that expansion modules could be "stacked"), and >several other attributes of a personal computer. While it might have >started out as a simple game machine, it was much more than that before >the advent of CBM. >-- >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Michael J. Farren farren@sat.com | >| He's moody, but he's cute. | >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ Vat do you vant already, good chips or good history? Obviously there are a few gaps in my education, and the metamorphosis started earlier than I had related. All I learned about the early history of Amiga & Co. was anecdotal, gleaned from conversations with BArt,Dale etal. As far as CBM supplying history lessons, the situatin was quite the opposite with a news blackout imposed on all CBM employees who were not directly involved in the project. Copies of the Lorrine spec had serial numbers on them and were tightly controlled. It was like working for the military. Certainly not the good old days from my perspective.
nwickham@carina.unm.edu (Neal C. Wickham) (03/05/91)
Geese ....I don't know how anyone could argue that Mac is better than Amiga
when an Amiga can emulate (nearly perfectly) a Mac. I heard just today that
the new AMax is going to support color and the new system 5 (?) for Mac. I
also tested today two machines side by side ...Amiga (68000) ...Mac (68020) on
how fast they would pop up a window and the Amiga was more than twice as fast.
Apple is not what it was. It is now a bunch of market oriented money grubbing
fast timers who bought a name. I think all the BS about Mac is simply a
testement to the power of mass subliminal advertising and the gulability of
american consumers. I too am tired of hearing just how damn much more
"prfessional" Mac is or how Mac just ..."feels" better. So why don't
you Mackers just keep your unresolved psychosexual feelings to your selves!
You can keep buying Mac and we will keep buying Amiga and will put our savings
into Apple stock.
NCW
nwickham@carina.unm.edu (Neal C. Wickham) (03/05/91)
In article <1991Mar05.070007.11494@ariel.unm.edu> nwickham@carina.unm.edu (Neal C. Wickham) writes: >the new AMax is going to support color and the new system 5 (?) for Mac. I > >also tested today two machines side by side ...Amiga (68000) ...Mac (68020) on > >how fast they would pop up a window and the Amiga was more than twice as fast. > ...I didn't mention that is was the same Mac windows since the Amiga was under the Amax emulator poping up the windows twice as fast. > > NCW >
blgardne@javelin.es.com (Blaine Gardner) (03/05/91)
Follow-up To: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy bkuo@girtab.usc.edu (Benjamin Kuo) writes: Hi Ben! >I agree with several of the posters in previous messages--LIMIT THIS THREAD! Once again, I'm directing followups to comp.sys.amiga.advocacy, and I suggest everyone else do the same. > We're even bickering about hard drive speeds, >which are VERY SUBJECTIVE to the HD manufacturer, NOT THE COMPUTER. My >hard drive has an access of 19ms, but when I hook up another, slower >40ms access time drive, of course it slows--but does that make the same machine >slower? Not a chance. My point about hard drive speeds is that the DMA interfaces commonly available (and shipping as standard equipment on most A2000's and all A3000's) are far faster than the non-DMA interface on the Macs. Unless it's a dog-slow (Seacrate) drive, ANY drive will run faster on the Amiga than it will on the Mac. As I've mentioned in another message, a 1.2 gigabyte Fujutsu produced peak read speeds of 1.9 megabytes/second on the A3000, about 500 kilobytes/sec on an IBM 386, and a feeble 300 kilobytes/sec on a Mac II. This was the same drive tested on all three systems. And in tests on a dozen other drives, the same kind of results were obtained. There are some very slow drives out there, but the Mac won't let the really fast ones fly. -- Blaine Gardner @ Evans & Sutherland 580 Arapeen Drive, SLC, Utah 84108 blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com or ...dsd.es.com!javelin!blgardne DoD #0046 My other motorcycle is a Quadracer. BIX: blaine_g Anticipation, anticipation, is making me late, is keeping me waiting.
darkstar@wam.umd.edu (Martin Walser) (03/06/91)
In article <1991Mar05.070007.11494@ariel.unm.edu> nwickham@carina.unm.edu (Neal C. Wickham) writes: >Geese ....I don't know how anyone could argue that Mac is better than Amiga >when an Amiga can emulate (nearly perfectly) a Mac. I heard just today that >the new AMax is going to support color and the new system 5 (?) for Mac. I >also tested today two machines side by side ...Amiga (68000) ...Mac (68020) on >how fast they would pop up a window and the Amiga was more than twice as fast. >Apple is not what it was. It is now a bunch of market oriented money grubbing >fast timers who bought a name. I think all the BS about Mac is simply a >testement to the power of mass subliminal advertising and the gulability of >american consumers. I too am tired of hearing just how damn much more >"prfessional" Mac is or how Mac just ..."feels" better. So why don't >you Mackers just keep your unresolved psychosexual feelings to your selves! >You can keep buying Mac and we will keep buying Amiga and will put our savings >into Apple stock. > NCW I was going to stay out of this stupid flame war, but now I must vent. I don't give a flying F$#@ whose damned machine is better. I don't care if the Amiga has AMAX or if it will support system7 or if it's faster or if a pink and green elephant comes free with every purchase! KEEP IT OUT OF MY NEWSGROUPS!!! I like my Mac... You may like your Amiga. FINE! I don't give a sh*t. But don't you rag on my machine because I chose it for my needs. I looked at both Macs and Amigas when I went to buy. I chose Mac. I like it. End of statement. You chose Amiga. You like it. Fine. But don't give me any of this crap about unresolved psychosexual feelings because of the computer I chose. You obviously are hypocritical because you are doing the same thing back. (i.e.- "My computer is better than yours... Nyah! Nyah!"). Take it somewhere else... I subscribe to the Mac groups to read about things for my MAC. So quit using up MY bandwidth. I don't mind intelligent debate about the usefulness of certain hardware additions or deficiencies, but keep the damn opinions out of it. And this isn't just directed at the Amiga people. Some of you Mac people are no better. If you want to scream all day at each other about how your computer is better, TAKE IT TO EMAIL. <steps off soapbox> Mart <darkstar@cscwam.umd.edu>
elg@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM (Eric Lee Green) (03/06/91)
From article <19467@cbmvax.commodore.com>, by raible@cbmvax.commodore.com (Bob Raible - LSI Design): > In fact Jay Miner (former Atari guru) and Co. designed the Amiga to be > the ultimate game machine. It wasn't until CBM came along that the > decision was made to make a personal computer out of it. Soon afterwards Wrongo. One of the original Amiga guys wrote a story about the history of Amiga Corporation (RIP). A bunch of doctors wanted to build a game machine, and hired Miner & friends to do it. Then the bottom dropped out of the game machine market, around '83 or so. So then they re-worked it into a personal computer. Jerry Pournelle saw one of the original prototypes, which was a bunch of TTL stuffed onto a couple of huge circuit boards and kludged onto a Sage Microsystems 68000-based machine's bus, & wrote about it in Byte in '84 or so. This was long before Commodore came into the picture. Commodore's contribution was to force the developers to release it to the public before the OS was finished. Commodore was a bit strapped for cash, at the time, and there were rumors of bankruptcy. Thus the popular conception that Amigas are unreliable... in the early days, they WERE. As you'd suspect, given that the developers told Commodore that they'd need six more months and Commodore gave them two, releasing the code un-finished. > deciding to take the Amiga upscale. The result was a marketing fiasco, > the A1000. This was to some extent corrected by the subsequent design Too true. I flamed Commodore myself back then, saying that if they expected to be taken seriously with no hard drive interface, they were deluding themselves. A machine with no hard drive interface is a game machine. Period. Of course Commodore pointed to Tecmar, but Tecmar never shipped. It was over ten months before hard drive interfaces started shipping in quantity for the Amiga. And now the problem in the Amiga hard drive interface market is glut :-). (I can think of over a dozen SCSI interfaces, ranging from awefully slow programmed I/O capable of maybe 200K/second, to the super-fast DMA designs capable of 2MB/sec or more). -- Eric Lee Green (318) 984-1820 P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509 elg@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM uunet!mjbtn!raider!elgamy!elg Looking for a job... tips, leads appreciated... inquire within...
ccastcr@prism.gatech.EDU (Russo, Chris A.) (03/06/91)
robbins@arcadien.rice.edu (Thomas Robbins) writes: >First of all, this is not intended to start a flame-war, merely some >observations I've noted with a request for informative comments. Not intended to start a flame war, but it definitely will. It's been discussed before. >I have been a die-hard Macintosh user for five years now, leading I'm a die hard Mac user too, doesn't mean it's untouchable, tho. >However, I'm disappointed with the entertainment/sound/video. I have >just been shocked at seeing a friend's Amiga 500, with its mere 7MHz >68000, for crying out loud, BLOW AWAY my 68030 Mac with the Amiga video >clippings, sound/music emulation, and GAMES. (The color version of >Falcon put my Mac version to shame!) And he had *hundreds* of cool >games compared to maybe 4 comparable Mac games. There are no comparable Mac games. Sadly, that's the total truth. >What's the deal? My friend says that it's because it has built-in >graphics co-processors. That's it exactly. Its graphics coprocessor does all of the memory moves required to animate. The Mac on the other hand, uses its cpu for _EACH_ cryin' out loud memory move. >I'm actually considering buying one of these, to supplement my mac. >(Heaven help me--a machine with DOS!) IS IT WORTH IT? I would use it >only for games, but I worry at buying a machine that's already four >years old, what with computer equipment being obsolete even before the >ink on your check is dry. And heck, it's only about the price of a good >modem! Nah, buy one of the newer game systems like Genesis or Turbografx. They're pretty awesome too. Or better yet, wait until the Super Nintendo comes out later this year. I think it's called Super Famicom now. Don't despair too much, tho. I bet you Apple puts a graphics coprocessor in one of their machines before the turn of the century. -- Russo, Chris A. Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!ccastcr Internet: ccastcr@prism.gatech.edu
rubin@ganymede.cis.ohio-state.edu (daniel j rubin) (03/06/91)
There is no comparison between the Amiga and the Mac when it comes to games. The graphics power on the Amiga is overwhelming. I love the Mac for its user friendliness and its ability to support super-simple menu and button type screens so the user can relate to the computer. The Mac is way to slow to support any kind of serious fast-paced graphic programs, there is so much overhead going on to support the idea that Apple has to make all future machines compatible with old ones ect.... For instance, there is no way to move the screen memory pointer on the Mac, the area in memory used for the screen is fixed (ok, mabey earlier versions had two screen memory areas, but that certainly was not too versital anyway). You have to be able to do tricks and do things that are not normal to create good graphics and hence good games. I remember programming on the Atari 8-bits and using the screen memory pointers to scroll at fast speeds even though the machine itself was not that fast, the same thing goes with VBlank interrupts, altering the display list, being able to turn off the screen and rotate colors by messing with memory registers. All of this stuff made it possible to make hi-speed, relitivly good graphics on a slooowwww computer. The Mac, on the other hand, is a faster computer, but not nearly fast enough to do all that without the graphics co-processor chips and those neat little tricks that you need to be able to play on the computer itself. Apple does not want you to touch the computer guts without interfaces, which is a great idea to support the purpose of the Mac. If I was buying a computer for graphics, games are just one little part of all the graphics applications out there, I would most certainly buy a Amiga. - Dan Rubin
nwickham@triton.unm.edu (Neal C. Wickham) (03/06/91)
Yep, ...I'm sorry that I didn't realize that I was posting to any Mac groupes.
I thought I was responding only to the comp.sys.amiga.games and to Mac usrers
posting to it. I've only been reading the News sinc January and should have
been a little more sure of what I was doing before I got all "critical".
NCWmelling@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) (03/06/91)
In article <90997@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> rubin@ganymede.cis.ohio-state.edu (daniel j rubin) writes:
[A statement about the Mac being faster than the Amiga deleted]
I doubt if a comparable Mac is really faster than the Amiga. The A500
is a low-end machine in the same price category as a Classic.
Commodore does have a high-end machine in the 3000. It should be
pretty fast since it is a 25MHz 68030(same as the IIci).
Apple wins because of the quality and diversity of Mac software. The
Mac's OS always looked more professional too(IMHO). Although, I have
been told Amiga DOS 2.0 is much better. A few good apps like Quark
XPress, WP 5.0, and a Lotus 123 for the Amiga would improve its image.
This is why NeXT will slowly penetrate Apple's market. They have some
good software available by well know companies, with more on the way.
NeXT will not suffer the same fate as Commodore. They big question is
how long will it take before people stop saying: "but there are N
thousand programs for the Mac."
-Mikebruce@zuhause.MN.ORG (Bruce Albrecht) (03/06/91)
In article <1991Mar4.022332.8904@csn.org> ullevig@tramp.Colorado.EDU (Ullevig Zachary A) writes: >Think about the target market for each machine. The Amiga computers are not >designed to be great computers, but they are designed to take a big chunck out >of the game market. They don't have much power, but they are given great >graphics and sound to make for good game machines. Macs are too expensive to >buy simply as a game computer, so less games are made for the macs and most >mac users don't care that there are no graphics co-processors. I'll match my Amiga 3000 against any MacII except the MACIIfx anyday. It's faster, and cheaper. The only drawback is that there's a lot more business oriented software for the Mac than the Amiga. On the other hand, since I can't afford much software for the Amiga, I'd be able afford much less for the Mac, since the Mac commercial software tends to be pricier. -- bruce@zuhause.mn.org
bruce@zuhause.MN.ORG (Bruce Albrecht) (03/06/91)
In article <1991Mar4.030134.7183@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> dbert@mole.ai.mit.edu (Douglas Siebert) writes: >Ten years from now, when the Mac "Classic" is a box containing a 80MHz >68040, 64M RAM and a 4G HD, Amigas will probably sit down in basements >like my 8-bit Atari does. With it's color graphics and co-processors to >support it's 1.79MHz 6502, it can play better games than my Mac Plus can. >But when I want to do serious work.... Ten years from now, the Amiga 500 equivalent will probably be a 80 MHz 68040, etc., but sells for two-thirds the price of the Mac. Today's stock Amiga 3000 contains a 25 MHz 68030+68882 FPU (extra on most MacIIs), 2 Mbytes RAM (expandable to 18 Mbytes on the motherboard), 50 Mbytes SCSI HD, for less than the cost of a slower MacII without an FPU. The Amiga 3000 was designed so one can add a 68040 card to the machine. There are several important applications where the ones available for the Amiga pale in comparison to the Mac apps (spreadsheets, for example), there are others like WP/DTP where the Amiga ones are just as good, and are cheaper. As to doing serious work on the Mac, its lack of a command line interface makes it painful to do anything that can and should be automated. bruce@zuhause.mn.org
chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Erik Funkenbusch) (03/06/91)
farren@sat.com (Michael J. Farren) writes: >raible@cbmvax.commodore.com writes: >>In fact Jay Miner (former Atari guru) and Co. designed the Amiga to be >>the ultimate game machine. It wasn't until CBM came along that the >>decision was made to make a personal computer out of it. > >Oy vey! Perhaps Commodore should print a little pamphlet for its employees, I agree. I have a transcription of a lecture given by RJ Mical (one of the founders of the Amiga) that was circulated several times on the net. he claims that the Amiga was ALWAYS intended to be a killer computer, however they had to convince the original investors it was going to be a game machine in order to get cash out of them. >with a little history in it... > >The Amiga was evolved into a personal computer some time before Commodore >ever got their hands on it. I have in my possession a complete set of Amiga >documentation from 1983-1984, when Amiga, Inc. was simply that, and it shows >an Amiga with a keyboard, 5-1/4" floppy drive, memory expansion slot (on >the top of the case, so that expansion modules could be "stacked"), and >several other attributes of a personal computer. While it might have >started out as a simple game machine, it was much more than that before >the advent of CBM. >-- >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Michael J. Farren farren@sat.com | >| He's moody, but he's cute. | >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ UUCP: {amdahl!tcnet, crash}!orbit!pnet51!chucks ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!chucks@nosc.mil INET: chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org
tope@enea.se (Tommy Petersson) (03/06/91)
In article <27263@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu (John 'Vlad' Adams) writes: >In article <1991Mar4.022332.8904@csn.org> ullevig@tramp.Colorado.EDU (Ullevig Zachary A) writes: (I don't really care) COMP.SYS.AMIGA.ADVOCACY! Yes, take it to comp.sys.amiga.advocacy!
carter@cat27.cs.wisc.edu (Gregory Carter) (03/07/91)
My computer comes with a mouse to kill you know, I just got done gutting the thing, kinda a mess but it works neato, and its got a soft coat too. None of your computers have this I bet. Mine is better..ca cause its got a real mouse, not a fake one and aaand its a white mouse too, I named him George, and even though I had to kill George, I smashed his brains before I gutted him, he is still kinda cute in a Frankenstein sort of way.. So thats why I bought my Brand X computer. There. --Greggy
nwickham@triton.unm.edu (Neal C. Wickham) (03/07/91)
>I doubt if a comparable Mac is really faster than the Amiga. The A500 >is a low-end machine in the same price category as a Classic. >Commodore does have a high-end machine in the 3000. It should be >pretty fast since it is a 25MHz 68030(same as the IIci). > 1) The Classic costs about twice as much as the 500 2) Computer speed is not somthing open to a lot of conjecture. There were several posts a few months back displaying test results of the 3000 under Amax running some Mac software called Speedometer. The 3000, under the emulator was faster than all of the Macs except the fx which is an $11000 machine. Someone pointed out that for the price of the fx, you could buy three complete Amiga 3000 systems. >Apple wins because of the quality and diversity of Mac software. The >Mac's OS always looked more professional too(IMHO). Although, I have >been told Amiga DOS 2.0 is much better. A few good apps like Quark >XPress, WP 5.0, and a Lotus 123 for the Amiga would improve its image. >This is why NeXT will slowly penetrate Apple's market. They have some >good software available by well know companies, with more on the way. >NeXT will not suffer the same fate as Commodore. They big question is >how long will it take before people stop saying: "but there are N >thousand programs for the Mac." Readysoft is coming out with AmaxIII which will support color and the new system 7 OS. We may have soon have Mac compatibles like we now have IBM compatibles. And of course they will cost less. So anyone will be able to run all that superior software on the machine of their choice. NeXT... people taking a second mortgage out on their house to affort one ...? I'll believe it when I see it! NCW > >-Mike
elg@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM (Eric Lee Green) (03/07/91)
From article <23550@hydra.gatech.EDU>, by ccastcr@prism.gatech.EDU (Russo, Chris A.): > robbins@arcadien.rice.edu (Thomas Robbins) writes: >>only for games, but I worry at buying a machine that's already four >>years old, what with computer equipment being obsolete even before the >>ink on your check is dry. And heck, it's only about the price of a good >>modem! > Nah, buy one of the newer game systems like Genesis or Turbografx. They're > pretty awesome too. Or better yet, wait until the Super Nintendo comes > out later this year. I think it's called Super Famicom now. Don't despair > too much, tho. I bet you Apple puts a graphics coprocessor in one of their > machines before the turn of the century. The problem with all those newer game systems is that none of them have the number of games available for the Amiga 500. If you're buying a system to play games on, it's hard to beat the Amiga 500. There will always be more games for the 500, because it takes much fewer resources for a developer to WRITE games for the 500... I remember one developer who wrote a decent game using his Amiga 1000 with two floppy drives, 512K, and Aztec C 3.4. Then he got jacked out of his royalties by the publisher, but that's life... anyhow, it's not like with the dedicated game systems, where you have to buy a very expensive developer setup in order to get things done. (My current Amiga setup, about $3,000 worth, is more than enough to do Amiga development). I've seen hundreds of good, playable games for the Amiga. You'll have a hard time convincing me that the Super Nintendo will have hundreds of games anytime in the near future. As for obsolescence... game machines don't become obsolete. Commodore sold over 250,000 Commodore 64's in Germany alone last year. We're talking about a limited 8-bit computer that's MUCH older than the Amiga 500 (which was released in ?'88?). The only thing that will make the Amiga 500 obsolete will be some other computer with much better graphics selling for the same price. And they'll have to be MUCH better, because otherwise it won't overcome the difference in available games software. -- Eric Lee Green (318) 984-1820 P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509 elg@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM uunet!mjbtn!raider!elgamy!elg Looking for a job... tips, leads appreciated... inquire within...
ewm@mdavcr.UUCP (Eric W. Mitchell) (03/07/91)
In article <27261@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> jma@beach.cis.ufl.edu (John 'Vlad' Adams) writes: - STUFF DELETED - >I use the "Big Three" extensively at home and at work. I don't see the >"amateurishness" in any of the three you've mentioned. The keyboard >is solid enough for me to maintain a sustained typing speed of 80 CPS. ^^^^^^^ Wow!!! I've owned dot matrix printers a lot slower!!! Man, what a great skill. If you can *think* this fast, you could fire off major applications in an afternoon!!! ;-] Eric -- ========================================================================== Eric Mitchell | "We're Screwed!!!" Ph. 604-278-3411 Fax. 604-278-2936 | email !uunet!van-bc!mdavcr!ewm | - Spaced Invaders. or ewm%mda.ca@wimsey.bc.ca | or ewm@mda.ca | ==========================================================================
zerkle@iris.ucdavis.edu (Dan Zerkle) (03/07/91)
Holy MACerel! This thread just ran out out of control. It's time for
those magic words:
TAKE IT TO .ADVOCACY!!
(Damn, that felt good.)
Yes, that's right. This thread is just about to lose any informative
value whatsoever (I can see it coming). It should not be discussed in
any Amiga group except comp.sys.amiga.advocacy. Therefore, I am
directing all followups away from the other Amiga group. Until
comp.sys.mac.advocacy shows up, I'm not sure where followups on that
end should go....
When you feel a need to respond, please direct your own followups to
comp.sys.amiga.advocacy, and away from the other Amiga groups. This
is done by putting a message in your header like:
Followup-To: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Many people will appreciate this and worship your very toenails if you
do it properly.
"Thank you for your cooperation."
-Robocop
Dan Zerkle zerkle@iris.eecs.ucdavis.edu (916) 754-0240
Amiga... Because life is too short for boring computers.steve@wildcat.UUCP (Steve Holland) (03/07/91)
>In article <23550@hydra.gatech.EDU> ccastcr@prism.gatech.EDU (Russo, Chris A.) writes: >robbins@arcadien.rice.edu (Thomas Robbins) writes: >[Bunch of stuff deleted] >>However, I'm disappointed with the entertainment/sound/video. I have >>just been shocked at seeing a friend's Amiga 500, with its mere 7MHz >>68000, for crying out loud, BLOW AWAY my 68030 Mac with the Amiga video >>clippings, sound/music emulation, and GAMES. (The color version of >>Falcon put my Mac version to shame!) And he had *hundreds* of cool >>games compared to maybe 4 comparable Mac games. >There are no comparable Mac games. Sadly, that's the total truth. Yes. this is NEWS! It has been common knowledge for years. that the Amiga has the fastest graphics and best games around >>What's the deal? My friend says that it's because it has built-in >>graphics co-processors. > >That's it exactly. Its graphics coprocessor does all of the memory moves >required to animate. The Mac on the other hand, uses its cpu for _EACH_ >cryin' out loud memory move. Even worse: the first Macs didn't even have a display chip or anything. Not only did they do all graphics moves with the processor, but THE VIDEO OUTPUT was done by the processor. The neat trick they used was to load a word of graphics memory into a processor register, then connect one of the data bus's lines DIRECTLY to the monitor. It outputed this word, and then did a binary shift-right. This was repeated for each of the 16 bits. This is what made the early Macs so SLOOOOWWWWWWWW. >>I'm actually considering buying one of these, to supplement my mac. >>(Heaven help me--a machine with DOS!) IS IT WORTH IT? I would use it >>only for games, but I worry at buying a machine that's already four >>years old, what with computer equipment being obsolete even before the >>ink on your check is dry. And heck, it's only about the price of a good >>modem! Actually the A500 can be brought all the way up to 68030/25mhz capability with currently available boards, and certain sources indicate that an '040 board may be on the way soon. >Nah, buy one of the newer game systems like Genesis or Turbografx. They're >pretty awesome too. Or better yet, wait until the Super Nintendo comes >out later this year. I think it's called Super Famicom now. Don't despair >too much, tho. I bet you Apple puts a graphics coprocessor in one of their >machines before the turn of the century. Game machines like the Genesis and Turbografix pale in comparison. ----------->Steve Holland<----------- Internet: wildcat!steve@alfalfa.com | "I never let my schooling get in the USENET: ...!alphalpha!wildcat!steve | way of my education" -Mark Twain <if alfalfa doesn't work, try alphalpha>
al158305@mtecv2.mty.itesm.mx (Gustavo Cordova Avila) (03/08/91)
mpierce@ewu.UUCP (Mathew Pierce) writes: >In article <1991Mar4.022332.8904@csn.org>, ullevig@tramp.Colorado.EDU (Ullevig Zachary A) writes: >> In article <1991Mar3.223546.12173@rice.edu> robbins@arcadien.rice.edu (Thomas Robbins) writes: >[stuff about how friends A500 w/ 68000 blows away own MacII in games deleteed.] >> >> Think about the target market for each machine. The Amiga computers are not >> designed to be great computers, but they are designed to take a big chunck out >> of the game market. They don't have much power, but they are given great >> graphics and sound to make for good game machines. Macs are too expensive to >> buy simply as a game computer, so less games are made for the macs and most I have some comments.. I think you're the kin of people that thinks that It's supposed to be impressive to see a word processor respond to a keypress in less than 1/2 second.. way to go, great performance, I can just hear you: "wow! it's screaming!!". Meanwhile, my Ami is chugging along playing music in the background in stereo, with a telcom program downloading some stuff, a little clock window flying around, a decompressors un-archiving some files I just downloaded and a game screen behind all that for playing while waiting. Ah! I forgot. And also, this "game machine" drives hard disks at almost 2 megabytes/sec, more than twice the speed of your "seriuos" machine. REMEMBER: If it's a game machine, it's the most powerful the industry can create. Gustavo.. sheesh.. what a dumb ass..no wonder he's a mac user. -- | From Mexico! Majoring in Electronics Systems Engineering, | | ITESM presents to you: Gustavo Cordova Avila!!! | | And then I woke up :) +------------------------------------+ +-----------------------+
nwickham@triton.unm.edu (Neal C. Wickham) (03/08/91)
>In article <1991Mar4.022332.8904@csn.org> ullevig@tramp.Colorado.EDU (Ullevig Zachary A) writes: >>Think about the target market for each machine. The Amiga computers are not >>designed to be great computers, but they are designed to take a big chunck out >>of the game market. They don't have much power, but they are given great >>graphics and sound to make for good game machines. Macs are too expensive to I would like to know what this assertion is based on. There were several posts on comp.sys.amiga several months ago comparing an Amiga 3000 with all of the Macs. The Amiga was under the Amax emulator running a Mac program called Speedometer which measures computer speed in several different ways. The Amiga 3000 turned out to run faster than all of the Macs except the fx which costs nearly three times as much. Also, Commodore is now after the Scientific and Higher Education markets. No one will ever catch up with IBM in the business market. I listened to a prominent engineer speak yesterday and he said that one thing you'd better bring with you to the engineering field is knowlege in the use of computers, and, he said, especially in computer graphics! So, graphics and graphics co-processors are important in more than just games. Also, while I'm on my soapbox. ...there was some German guy on Computer Cronicles (sp?) awhile back and he was making comparisons between the german and american markets. He that in America, Joe Sixpack will hop out of his car, run into a coputer store, look around for 15 minutes, and will buy a Mac with his credit card. In Germany, the german buyer will shop around for at the very least, a month or two before spending that kind of money. The german buyer will ask each representive for technical specifications, techinical evaluations, and will get third party technical evaluations, and he will read all of the above before buying a computer. All computer stores in Germany, keep plenty of specifications and evaluations around due to the constant demand for them. ....well Amiga is the largest selling computer in Germany as it is in the UK and in europe in gereral. That has to tell you something. And I also believe it will do better here amoung technically oriented people who will also base their purchases, at least in part, on a technical evaluation rather than ...a 30 second TV comercial or something. The software will follow. There is already a lot of good stuff coming out of europe and else where. Some guy from New Zealand (sp?) just this week came out with IBeM which is an XT emulator for only $30. Gad! NCW
Doug_B_Erdely@cup.portal.com (03/08/91)
Just wanted to point out to Eric Green that Tecmar did in fact ship a HD for the Amiga. I saw, and worked with one myself. So they did make and ship such a beast. Not that it was the greatest... in my opinion, Tecmar did the Amiga a favor when they got out of Amiga peripherals. - Doug - Doug_B_Erdely@Cup.Portal.Com
jph@ais.org (Joseph Hillenburg) (03/08/91)
In article <00668212609@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM> elg@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM (Eric Lee Green) writes: >From article <19467@cbmvax.commodore.com>, by raible@cbmvax.commodore.com ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ (Bob Raible - LSI Design): >> In fact Jay Miner (former Atari guru) and Co. designed the Amiga to be >> the ultimate game machine. It wasn't until CBM came along that the >> decision was made to make a personal computer out of it. Soon afterwards > >Wrongo. Check who you're following up on next time. >-- >Eric Lee Green (318) 984-1820 P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509 >elg@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM uunet!mjbtn!raider!elgamy!elg > Looking for a job... tips, leads appreciated... inquire within... -- // Joseph Hillenburg, Secretary, Bloomington Amiga Users Group \X/ joseph@valnet.UUCP jph@irie.ais.org jph@albert.ai.mit.edu "Only Apple could slow down a 68030 chip" --Computer Shopper
David.Plummer@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG (David Plummer) (03/08/91)
> if the _standard_ screen resolution ever evolves beyond 320X200) I
think the...
To which I present, clipped from another active screen using snap:
Video Mode: NTSC
Normal Display Size: 700 x 230
Maximum Display Size: 466 x 262
Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1:1.166
Note that I'm not currentlu running in interlace, and that I'm running
on an Amiga500. I believe that with a Multiscan and the new chipset,
resolution runs up to 1280x480 or even 1280x700 (something similar to
IBM 8514/A resolution, but I digress...)
Aparently you know as little about Amigas as I do about Macs! Some of
the stuff I've heard in this thread is hilarious! Floppies as slow as
hard drives, game machine only, etc. It's all about as true as saying
all Macs are black and white. Now about that one mouse button....
--
David Plummer - via FidoNet node 1:140/22
UUCP: ...!herald!weyr!70!David.Plummer
Domain: David.Plummer@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG
Standard Disclaimers Apply...David.Plummer@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG (David Plummer) (03/08/91)
>of the game market. They don't have much power, but they are given
great graphics and sound....
Interesting. So how times slower is the GVP 68030-50MHz board than a
Mac IIfx? Just what DO you consider powerful? I shudder to think.
--
David Plummer - via FidoNet node 1:140/22
UUCP: ...!herald!weyr!70!David.Plummer
Domain: David.Plummer@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG
Standard Disclaimers Apply...avatar@MAPLE.CIRCA.UFL.EDU (03/09/91)
I shouldn't begin on this thread, and I will not say much. I am about to do a little unbacked up Mac bashing. All these people who talk about the benefits of a Mac. Sure, it's cute, but there is no real difference, IMHO, between the Mac 'OS' and Workbench. The Mac's looks a little better, but it can sometimes be a pain to use, just because of low responsiveness sometimes. On the other hand, opposite the Mac, is a useful computer, the IBM/clones(even though clones will be gone and the prices will go back up way out of my price range). The IBM runs much better software, has better hardware, etc. just because it has a MUCH wider spread. This has been IBM's success, the non patenting, which will all change, now. Sure, you don't have menu's and stuff, unless you have windows, which is IBM's standard poor imitation of an Amiga,\ but dos is still extremely easy to use. Then you slide back over to the middle. This is where you find the Amiga. The Amiga(maybe not the 500 as much, but look at the XT's out at the time) rests fairly in the middle. It also has the problem of being run by one company, but its low cost opens it to everyone. It has the best features of the IBM with the good feature of the MAC, the graphic interface. So this is how I place the three computers: Mac: Minor applications stuff for not-necessarily-gifted people in departments of corporations. IBM: Hardcore business applications and programming for businesses and corporations. Amiga: Multimedia businesses and most important in my case, the Home. (note: this does not include the good computers like mini's and mainframes) (further note: this is off the top of my head) AVATAR@maple.circa.ufl.edu
mitroo@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Varun Mitroo) (03/11/91)
In article <27373@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> AVATAR%oak.decnet@pine.circa.ufl.edu writes: >I shouldn't begin on this thread, and I will not say much. I am about to do >a little unbacked up Mac bashing. > >All these people who talk about the benefits of a Mac. Sure, it's cute, but >there is no real difference, IMHO, between the Mac 'OS' and Workbench. The >Mac's looks a little better, but it can sometimes be a pain to use, just >because of low responsiveness sometimes. Okay, I'd like to see any mac lover justify this: Last year, I was working on an important paper on a mac. I was using WordPerfect, I think. Anyway, I loaded in my paper off the disk, and gave the disk to a friend who had some of her things on it. No problem, I thought - I'll just save the updated file onto another disk or on the hard drive. Wrong!! When I tried saving the file, a requester came up asking for "such and such disk" to be replaced in the drive!?! Why? I wanted to save the file on another disk. No problem, I thought, I'll just click the "cancel" box. Wait a minute... There is no cancel box! The machine was completely dead until I replaced THAT SAME DISK into the drive. I had to go running around campus trying to find my friend with that disk just so I could stick it into that stupid drive for that precious second until it changed disks. I don't know. To me this is not what computing is all about. Trying to put the cursor over a word with the mouse on a puny flickering black & white 9" screen is not my idea of advanced word processing. When I tried printing the file, I had to WAIT 20 MINUTES for the printout. The proctor working there told me this is normal, AppleTalk is just slow. Remember: "Only a Macintosh gives you so much power to do so many things so quickly and so easily." Varun Mitroo mitroo@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu PS - When was the last time Apple actually came out with anything innovative rather than a rehash of old technology? What other company is bringing a new product with a 68000 in it for $1000?
trotter@ENUXHA.EAS.ASU.EDU (Russell T. Trotter) (03/11/91)
I agree being forced to insert a disk with no cancel box is a bit inconveinent....maybe more in your case but anyway..just for future reference you can "cancel" that dialog by typing Command - period , or hold the open apple button down and press the "." Also I don't think it's fair for you to note isolated instances such as your slow appletalk and apply this to your opinion of Macs. At our university we have Mac and PC networks. Our Mac network is quite efficient and relatively fast, whereas some PC net setups are much slower, but I still don't hate PC's })
jon@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Deutsch) (03/11/91)
In article <1991Mar10.182432.9314@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu> mitroo@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Varun Mitroo) writes: >In article <27373@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> AVATAR%oak.decnet@pine.circa.ufl.edu writes: >> > >Okay, I'd like to see any mac lover justify this: Last year, I was working >on an important paper on a mac. I was using WordPerfect, I think. Anyway, >I loaded in my paper off the disk, and gave the disk to a friend who had some >of her things on it. No problem, I thought - I'll just save the updated file >onto another disk or on the hard drive. Wrong!! When I tried saving the file, >a requester came up asking for "such and such disk" to be replaced in the >drive!?! Why? I wanted to save the file on another disk. No problem, I >thought, I'll just click the "cancel" box. Wait a minute... There is no >cancel box! The machine was completely dead until I replaced THAT SAME DISK >into the drive. I had to go running around campus trying to find my friend >with that disk just so I could stick it into that stupid drive for that >precious second until it changed disks. Well, there is a quick-n-easy solution to that particular problem. But, I have a feeling that THAT is not what you are upset about. I think that you are upset about the fact that the Mac has a shell about 1-mile-thick. You can't do anything unless it wants IT wants you to. You might cringe at this idea, but it is probably the best idea for office work, where people generally don't know what they are doing, and probably don't care. This kind of protection is good for a particular type of user. The same goes for the average college shmoe who just wants to type in a paper, and doesn't want to be bothered with 'computer jargon'. So, for people like you and me, who can't stand not being able to do what we want to do with our computer, there is the Amiga. So, why bash Macs? > Varun Mitroo > mitroo@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu > >PS - When was the last time Apple actually came out with anything innovative >rather than a rehash of old technology? What other company is bringing a new >product with a 68000 in it for $1000? When's the last time C= came out with anything *really* innovative? 68000 for under $1000? Besides C=? How about Apple and Atari? If Macs are so bad, don't use them. That's how I handle IBMs. X-------------------+--------------+-----------------------X | | |\ |>jon@brahms.udel.edu<| "For my 2 cents, | | \|on |/eutsch |>>-----------------<<| I'd pay a dollar" | X------+--------------------+--------------------+---------X
aru@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Sriram Ramkrishna) (03/11/91)
In article <1991Mar10.182432.9314@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu> mitroo@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Varun Mitroo) writes: > >drive!?! Why? I wanted to save the file on another disk. No problem, I >thought, I'll just click the "cancel" box. Wait a minute... There is no >cancel box! The machine was completely dead until I replaced THAT SAME DISK >into the drive. I had to go running around campus trying to find my friend >with that disk just so I could stick it into that stupid drive for that Yeah, I have had this problem happen to me a lot, it is very annoying. However, did you know that you can do a <command> <.> and it should get rid of the requester? Amiga handles it better of course. :-) Still, things like that is not very productive in my opinion. >precious second until it changed disks. > >I don't know. To me this is not what computing is all about. Trying to put >the cursor over a word with the mouse on a puny flickering black & white 9" I can certainly agree with you there! I don't like small monitor, and that is too small for me. Most of the time I am squinting at the screen. Thats why I use the MacIIs in the lab. Much better..Yeah yeah I know you can replace the monitor with something else...big deal. Extra cost. >screen is not my idea of advanced word processing. When I tried printing the >file, I had to WAIT 20 MINUTES for the printout. The proctor working there >told me this is normal, AppleTalk is just slow. Remember: "Only a Macintosh >gives you so much power to do so many things so quickly and so easily." Hmmm, we run an apple talk system here, and I don't find it slow at all. We have about 35 MacII under appletalk and they are quite fast. Better than the novell network we have. > >PS - When was the last time Apple actually came out with anything innovative >rather than a rehash of old technology? What other company is bringing a new >product with a 68000 in it for $1000? Agreed. I don't think Apple has really come up with anything. One of my largest complaints that I have about the Mac is data integrity. I have had cases where I would insert a mac disk, find it is okay then take out and put it back in and it wouldn't work. Also for no reason, a Mac could crash without any sort of explanation of why. Users would bitch and moan to me and I could not give them an explanation of why they lost a part of their file or anything like that. One funny case was when I had a friend who complained that his disk was not working. I took his disk, shook it like hard and gave it a small tap and inserted into the drive. Meanwhile, my friend is looking at me with complete disbelief. Needless to say, the disk was recognized. :-) Sri (aru@mentor.cc.purdue.edu) Sri
epayne@x102a.harris-atd.com (payne edward 01471) (03/11/91)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Payne | Harris, GASD | If I only had more than epayne@x102a.ess.harris.com | Melbourne, Fl | 3 lines....
elg@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM (Eric Lee Green) (03/11/91)
From article <3$P-B6-@irie.ais.org>, by jph@ais.org (Joseph Hillenburg): > In article <00668212609@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM> elg@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM (Eric Lee Green) writes: >>From article <19467@cbmvax.commodore.com>, by raible@cbmvax.commodore.com > (Bob Raible - LSI Design): >>> In fact Jay Miner (former Atari guru) and Co. designed the Amiga to be >>> the ultimate game machine. It wasn't until CBM came along that the >>> decision was made to make a personal computer out of it. Soon afterwards >>Wrongo. > Check who you're following up on next time. I *KNOW* who I'm following up to :-). Actually, it's not Bob's fault. Most of Commodore's present engineers came on board long after the original Amiga team had been laid off/dispersed/quit/whatever. Not to mention that Bob is an LSI designer, not a programmer, and thus is probably a hobbiest, at best, when it comes to Amiga software etc. (Not that there's anything wrong with that... Dave Haynie's a hardware guy, but his DiskSalv, a hobby software project, has saved many people's hard drives). Not to mention that I talked to a Commodore engineer oh, a month or so ago, who confides that he's a Unix guy basically, a latecomer to the Amiga. Of course, the guy had also produced a decent-selling Amiga utility before joining Commodore... but he wasn't there when the Amiga was introduced, he doesn't know. -- Eric Lee Green (318) 984-1820 P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509 elg@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM uunet!mjbtn!raider!elgamy!elg
jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) (03/12/91)
In article <27373@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> avatar@MAPLE.CIRCA.UFL.EDU writes: > > the IBM/clones(even >though clones will be gone and the prices will go back up way out of my price >range). The IBM runs much better software, has better hardware, etc. just >because it has a MUCH wider spread. This has been IBM's success, the non >patenting, which will all change, now. What? Did I miss a major news item? -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | "There's UFOs over New Jim Shaffer, Jr. | amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms | York, and I ain't too 37 Brook Street | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | surprised." Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (John Lennon)
awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) (03/12/91)
In article <1991Mar10.182432.9314@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu> mitroo@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Varun Mitroo) writes: >Okay, I'd like to see any mac lover justify this: Last year, I was working >on an important paper on a mac. I was using WordPerfect, I think. Anyway, >I loaded in my paper off the disk, and gave the disk to a friend who had some >of her things on it. No problem, I thought - I'll just save the updated file >onto another disk or on the hard drive. Wrong!! When I tried saving the file, What do you mean "you loaded in [your] paper off the disk"? Just because you opened a file does NOT mean the entire document is in memory. >a requester came up asking for "such and such disk" to be replaced in the >drive!?! Why? I wanted to save the file on another disk. No problem, I Could it be that it needed part of the file to save to the other disk? Hmm. >thought, I'll just click the "cancel" box. Wait a minute... There is no >cancel box! The machine was completely dead until I replaced THAT SAME DISK >into the drive. I had to go running around campus trying to find my friend Well, if you spent some time reading the basic Mac docs learning that the command-period key cancels most operations you'd have been able to get out of that situation. There isn't a computer around without some of those "gotchas". >with that disk just so I could stick it into that stupid drive for that >precious second until it changed disks. That annoying feature saves many users from overwriting information on disks they inadvertantly swapped out. >I don't know. To me this is not what computing is all about. Trying to put >the cursor over a word with the mouse on a puny flickering black & white 9" >screen is not my idea of advanced word processing. When I tried printing the Poor thing, I bet you have the same problem opening your mailbox. That little door is soooo much smaller than your front door (even though the keys are roughly the same size.) Get a clue. 10 point type is 10 point type. >file, I had to WAIT 20 MINUTES for the printout. The proctor working there >told me this is normal, AppleTalk is just slow. Remember: "Only a Macintosh >gives you so much power to do so many things so quickly and so easily." So your proctor is brain-dead about Mac stuff. AppleTalk is slow for many users printing to ImageWriters. It is not slow for one. Your situation is typical for lab setups where they have tens of people accessing network resources all at once. >PS - When was the last time Apple actually came out with anything innovative >rather than a rehash of old technology? What other company is bringing a new >product with a 68000 in it for $1000? What utter bullshit. Go post in forum where you know something about what you're talking. Apple is selling you a machine with a 512k ROM, good sound output, built-in networking, hi-density floppy drive, SCSI interface, and and extensible keyboard/mouse bus for list price of $1000 (who pays list?) Please describe to me the comparable product you were thinking of.
rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (03/12/91)
In article <45435@ut-emx.uucp> awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) writes: >In article <1991Mar10.182432.9314@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu> mitroo@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Varun Mitroo) writes: > >>PS - When was the last time Apple actually came out with anything innovative >>rather than a rehash of old technology? What other company is bringing a new >>product with a 68000 in it for $1000? > >What utter bullshit. Go post in forum where you know something about what >you're talking. Apple is selling you a machine with a 512k ROM, good >sound output, built-in networking, hi-density floppy drive, SCSI interface, >and and extensible keyboard/mouse bus for list price of $1000 (who pays list?) > >Please describe to me the comparable product you were thinking of. A500 $500 TrumpCard SCSI $170 Color Monitor $200 AE High Density Drive (1.56mb) $189 Total-$1050 Missing:AppleSlowTalk networking. Who wants it. Take your pick of Amiga ethernet boards, Dec,TSS net, Amiganet, Parnet, etc. Advantages: Built in multitasking operating system. Color output with hardware sprites, a blitter chip for animation, NTSC composite compatible, COPPER Coprocessor, Built in Stereo with VARIABLE dma allowing you to change the pitch/frequency of digitized sample and play songs with ZERO processor intervention, 2 disk drives, HIGH SPEED SCSI controller(DMA), built in keyboard, expansion slot, mouse. The Mac Classic is B&W, 9" monitor. Disadvantages: The Amiga isn't backed by a multibillion dollar gluttonous unscrupulous corperation with bad business practices like trying to copyright intuitive concepts.
dinn@ug.cs.dal.ca (Michael "Moose" Dinn) (03/12/91)
In article <45435@ut-emx.uucp> awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) writes: >>PS - When was the last time Apple actually came out with anything innovative >>rather than a rehash of old technology? What other company is bringing a new >>product with a 68000 in it for $1000? > >What utter bullshit. Go post in forum where you know something about what >you're talking. Apple is selling you a machine with a 512k ROM, good >sound output, built-in networking, hi-density floppy drive, SCSI interface, >and and extensible keyboard/mouse bus for list price of $1000 (who pays list?) > >Please describe to me the comparable product you were thinking of. Well, How about an A500 with execllent sound output (4 voice stereo), 880K floppy, 4096 colors and greater speed than the Mac? SCSI can be added for ~$150, and the networking for about the same. Mouse too. The CPU with drive costs $500 or so... so, add it all up and get $900 list out of it. The only thing the MAc has over that is the keyboard/mouse bus. And we have Color, far superior sound, and besides, I can run all Mac stuff on my Amiga too. Sound superior? I think so. -- Michael Dinn, Sysop of the Moose's Swamp - Nova Scotia's largest Amiga BBS +1 (902) 463-0483, 3/12/24/48/96/14,400 baud * 170 Megabytes online School: mdinn@ac.dal.ca, dinn@ug.cs.dal.ca | These are my opinions and Work: 01Moose@ac.dal.ca, 01Moose@dalac.bitnet| noone else's. (blame me :-)
jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) (03/13/91)
In article <45435@ut-emx.uucp> awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) writes: > >What do you mean "you loaded in [your] paper off the disk"? Just because you >opened a file does NOT mean the entire document is in memory. Well, the average user is probably not going to expect pseudo-virtual-memory in his word processor! Besides, doesn't this make scrolling through the file slower? >Well, if you spent some time reading the basic Mac docs learning that the >command-period key cancels most operations you'd have been able to get out of >that situation. There isn't a computer around without some of those "gotchas". When I was in college, if I walked into a Mac lab to do something (this was before I owned an Amiga!) I usually couldn't find any manuals if my life depended on it. I certainly never saw the actual Mac system manuals, as opposed to the applications manuals. Why not put a "cancel" button in the requester? And I thought one of the selling points of the Mac was that end-users didn't have to know anything about the OS? >That annoying feature saves many users from overwriting information on disks >they inadvertantly swapped out. The Amiga also tracks disks by volume name, but it also has a "cancel" button right in the open where you can see it. And for some reason, the times I've had to replace an Amiga floppy have never been as annoying (or as frequent) as the times I've had to replace a Mac floppy. >What utter bullshit. Go post in forum where you know something about what >you're talking. Apple is selling you a machine with a 512k ROM, good >sound output, built-in networking, hi-density floppy drive, SCSI interface, >and and extensible keyboard/mouse bus for list price of $1000 (who pays list?) But what are they doing with that 512k ROM? They're not even multi-tasking! Good sound output? I assume you mean through the built-in speakers? Or have they added RCA jacks now? And what about color? (I admit you've got me on the networking and SCSI, but I can't think of any reason I'd need an "extensible keyboard/mouse bus." Plus, Apple's attitude toward their "rights" to their look-and-feel is repulsive, to put it kindly. Please note, followups to comp.sys.amiga.advocacy! -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | "There's UFOs over New Jim Shaffer, Jr. | amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms | York, and I ain't too 37 Brook Street | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | surprised." Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (John Lennon)
cs220x2a@ducvax.auburn.edu (CS220X) (03/13/91)
>onto another disk or on the hard drive. Wrong!! When I tried saving the file, >a requester came up asking for "such and such disk" to be replaced in the >drive!?! Why? I wanted to save the file on another disk. No problem, I >thought, I'll just click the "cancel" box. Wait a minute... There is no >cancel box! The machine was completely dead until I replaced THAT SAME DISK >into the drive. I had to go running around campus trying to find my friend >with that disk just so I could stick it into that stupid drive for that >precious second until it changed disks. > >I don't know. To me this is not what computing is all about. Trying to put >the cursor over a word with the mouse on a puny flickering black & white 9" >screen is not my idea of advanced word processing. When I tried printing the >file, I had to WAIT 20 MINUTES for the printout. The proctor working there >told me this is normal, AppleTalk is just slow. Remember: "Only a Macintosh >gives you so much power to do so many things so quickly and so easily." > > Varun Mitroo > mitroo@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu > >PS - When was the last time Apple actually came out with anything innovative >rather than a rehash of old technology? What other company is bringing a new >product with a 68000 in it for $1000? I realize this is a Mac games conference and not supposed to support this kind of debate, but I couldn't let such erroneous comments go by. 1) The reason WordPerfect did not satisfy you is because it is simply a port over from the DOS version. If it implemented the user interface in the way that Apple specifies, you would have had a "Cancel" box, etc., etc. (WordPerfect 2.0 seems much better though). Don't blame the Mac for WordPerfect putting out a sorry product, just switch to Word or MacWrite II. 2) APPLETALK IS NOT MEANT TO COMPETE WITH ETHERNET. It is intended to be an economical (built-in even) networking solution for the small business or other network. You are not supposed to say, wire a university with AppleTalk, though some people, like yourself, think that's what Apple intended. If you want EtherNet speed...BUY ETHERNET! 3) Apple comes out with more innovative products than any other computer company. What company has slashed prices like Apple? What company has introduces new models almost every single year? Face it, Apple is on the cutting edge. Yes, it needs to add a graphics coprocessor, but considering a 16 mhz SE/30 doing all its own graphics can outpreform a 20 mhz 386 running Windows with a separate processor, it's obvious Apple does some amazing technology tricks. Finally, let's move this debate to some other conference...say the Mac miscellaneous or the Amiga advocate. Just tell me where it goes, because those who flame the Mac the most are those who don't use them much. Wade Williams cs220x2a@ducvax.auburn.edu
v125lqbx@ubvmsa.cc.buffalo.edu (Brian T McColpin) (03/13/91)
In article <jms.3409@vanth.UUCP>, jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes... >In article <27373@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> avatar@MAPLE.CIRCA.UFL.EDU writes: >>because it has a MUCH wider spread. This has been IBM's success, the non >>patenting, which will all change, now. > >What? Did I miss a major news item? > Just OS/2. Nothing to worry about. :-)
rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (03/13/91)
In article <91MAR12.134551@ducvax.auburn.edu> cs220x2a@ducvax.auburn.edu writes: >2) APPLETALK IS NOT MEANT TO COMPETE WITH ETHERNET. It is intended to be an >economical (built-in even) networking solution for the small business or other >network. You are not supposed to say, wire a university with AppleTalk, >though some people, like yourself, think that's what Apple intended. If you >want EtherNet speed...BUY ETHERNET! Huh? WHat use is it in Education, if you can't say, wire up a classroom to one printer. >3) Apple comes out with more innovative products than any other computer >company. What company has slashed prices like Apple? What company has >introduces new models almost every single year? Face it, Apple is on the >cutting edge. Yes, it needs to add a graphics coprocessor, but considering a >16 mhz SE/30 doing all its own graphics can outpreform a 20 mhz 386 running >Windows with a separate processor, it's obvious Apple does some amazing >technology tricks. Oh come on, wake up. The reason Apple releases new models every year is because the Mac doesn't have an open architecure to expand. The Amiga 2000 is so expandible, it's still a useful machine, even with the introduction of the A3000. Apple's slashed prices? GET REAL. All Apple did was lower the prices to what they should have been years ago! Apple's been overpricing their products for years! The Mac Classic is nothing more than a repackaged Mac (e.g. Old technology) with a slightly lower price and a new name. Apple release more innovative products than any computer company? NAME THEM. Not a single Mac computer is ahead of it's time, nor does it deliver hardware power for a low price. The 7mhz Amiga 1000 can outperform the Mac IIfx at graphics sound and animation, and it was released in 1985. >Finally, let's move this debate to some other conference...say the Mac >miscellaneous or the Amiga advocate. Just tell me where it goes, because >those who flame the Mac the most are those who don't use them much. I'd altered the followup's line to comp.sys.amiga.advocacy. >Wade Williams >cs220x2a@ducvax.auburn.edu
mpierce@ewu.UUCP (Mathew Pierce) (03/13/91)
[stuff deleted about WP requesting user to put missing disk into Mac, with no option but to find the disk, or reboot and lose all. ie NO CANCEL BUTTON ON REQUESTER! > > Varun Mitroo > > mitroo@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu > > > >PS - When was the last time Apple actually came out with anything innovative > >rather than a rehash of old technology? What other company is bringing a new > >product with a 68000 in it for $1000? > 1) The reason WordPerfect did not satisfy you is because it is simply a port over > from the DOS version. If it implemented the user interface in the way that > Apple specifies, you would have had a "Cancel" box, etc., etc. (WordPerfect > 2.0 seems much better though). Don't blame the Mac for WordPerfect putting > out a sorry product, just switch to Word or MacWrite II. I don't know about wordperfect, but I had this same experience with our SE here in the lab - I put in my disk, did some work, and removed it, but its icon remained. I then clicked on the disk, and a requester poped up telling me to put my disk back in, the requester had no cancel button what so ever - my options were to either put the disk back in, or reboot. This is the SYSTEM software, not an app, so what's the deal? [stuff about appletalk not being ethernet deleted] > 3) Apple comes out with more innovative products than any other computer > company. What company has slashed prices like Apple? Name an innovative product that isn't a repackageing of old technology. Slashing prices is not innovative. What company has > introduces new models almost every single year? These new models are repackages, they are not innovative, changing the number of expansion slots is not innovative. Selling a unit with a hard drive already packaged in it is not innovative. Heck, MacWorld even called Apple the least innovative computer comapany of all, the stopped being innovative long ago. > Face it, Apple is on the > cutting edge. Apple is certainly breaking new ground in the legal area, but that's about it. If they spent as much money on innovation, as they do on lawsuits, they would probably be more innovative. Yes, it needs to add a graphics coprocessor, but considering a > 16 mhz SE/30 doing all its own graphics can outpreform a 20 mhz 386 running > Windows with a separate processor, it's obvious Apple does some amazing > technology tricks. No, Motorola does some amazing technonoy tricks. > Wade Williams > cs220x2a@ducvax.auburn.edu Matt Pierce
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (03/13/91)
In article <91MAR12.134551@ducvax.auburn.edu> cs220x2a@ducvax.auburn.edu writes: > 3) Apple comes out with more innovative products than any other computer > company. The last innovative product that came out of Apple... let's see. How about the original Macintosh? What have they done since then that wasn't just putting faster chips in the same basic box? > 16 mhz SE/30 doing all its own graphics can outpreform a 20 mhz 386 running > Windows with a separate processor, it's obvious Apple does some amazing > technology tricks. My response to this paragraph is in comp.sys.amiga.advocacy, per your request. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
rlcollins@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Ryan 'Gozar' Collins) (03/14/91)
In article <108.27D9CFB6@weyr.FIDONET.ORG>, David.Plummer@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG (David Plummer) writes: >> if the _standard_ screen resolution ever evolves beyond 320X200) I > think the... > > To which I present, clipped from another active screen using snap: > > Video Mode: NTSC > Normal Display Size: 700 x 230 > Maximum Display Size: 466 x 262 > Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1:1.166 I think he was getting at that the games use the 320X200 mode. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ryan 'Gozar' Collins Question for IBM Users: rlcollins@miavx1.BITNET |||| Power Without How DO you move/copy a rc1dsanu@miamiu.BITNET / || \ The Price!! Subdirectory? R.COLLINS1 on GEnie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pwb@newt.phys.unsw.OZ.AU (Paul W. Brooks) (03/14/91)
In article <00668212609@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM>, elg@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM (Eric Lee Green) writes: > > And now the problem in the Amiga hard drive interface market is glut :-). > (I can think of over a dozen SCSI interfaces, ranging from awefully slow > programmed I/O capable of maybe 200K/second, to the super-fast DMA designs > capable of 2MB/sec or more). > Could you post a brief summary of the SCSI interfaces you know about, maybe in order fastest-to-slowest - I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to know which 'dogs' to avoid! Maybe anyone who has info. on others might like to add their collective knowledge? > -- > Eric Lee Green (318) 984-1820 P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509 > elg@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM uunet!mjbtn!raider!elgamy!elg > Looking for a job... tips, leads appreciated... inquire within... Paul Brooks |Internet: pwb@newt.phys.unsw.edu.au Uni. of N.S.W. |If you have trouble sleeping, try lying on the end of Kensington NSW 2033| your bed. With a little luck you'll drop off. AUSTRALIA | - Mark Twain.
kpmiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Kent P Miller) (03/14/91)
>Well, How about an A500 with execllent sound output (4 voice stereo), 880K >floppy, 4096 colors and greater speed than the Mac? SCSI can be added for >~$150, and the networking for about the same. Mouse too. The CPU with >drive costs $500 or so... so, add it all up and get $900 list out of it. >The only thing the MAc has over that is the keyboard/mouse bus. And we have >Color, far superior sound, and besides, I can run all Mac stuff on my Amiga >too. Sound superior? I think so. I can't handle it. Add the cost of the scsi bus (150), a monitor (250-300), and what do you have? 500+150+300 = 950! Mac Classic. Plus, you'd better add about $50 to replace that cheap piece of crap disk drive button that keeps breaking on all my friends Amiga. (a Mac Classic street price is even less. Can you get a Amiga with a 40Mb HD and monitor for 1100? Maybe, but don't be telling me you can do it for much less) Oh, by the way, if you are thinking of flaming me back, you'd better do it by mail. This subject has now hit my kill file. Trying to keep my blood pressure down, you know. -- ----------------------- Kent Miller KENT@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu Bitnet -> KENT@uokucsvx
chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Erik Funkenbusch) (03/15/91)
cs220x2a@ducvax.auburn.edu (CS220X) writes: >3) Apple comes out with more innovative products than any other computer >company. What company has slashed prices like Apple? What company has >introduces new models almost every single year? Face it, Apple is on the >cutting edge. Yes, it needs to add a graphics coprocessor, but considering a >16 mhz SE/30 doing all its own graphics can outpreform a 20 mhz 386 running >Windows with a separate processor, it's obvious Apple does some amazing >technology tricks. > >Finally, let's move this debate to some other conference...say the Mac >miscellaneous or the Amiga advocate. Just tell me where it goes, because >those who flame the Mac the most are those who don't use them much. > >Wade Williams >cs220x2a@ducvax.auburn.edu Wrong! the people who flame the mac most are people that use it quite often AND use other computers as well. I use a Mac daily in my duties as Editor of a local magazine, i edit, typeset, keyline, the whole nine yards. while i admit that the support for outline fonts in the OS is a definate advantage, it's the ONLY advantage. The interface is slow, clumsy, and wastes ALOT of time. it's attempt at multi-tasking is so unusable (at least to someone who has REALLY used multi-tasking) that i prefer to single task with it, rather than suffer jerky performance. It's graphics are slow especially when you get into 8 or 24 bits, and other than cute macro programs that i don't trust, there is no way to automate any processes. on our IIcx we've gone through 3 keyboards in 1 year and our dealer (computerland) tells us it's a "common problem". As for "slashing prices" going from outrageous to overpriced is not what i call slashing. you are still not getting a bang for your buck, because cheaper to apple means just that. CHEAP. it took them so long to get the production prices of the classic down so they could still make an outragos profit. for what it is, the classic should cost half of what it does. UUCP: {amdahl!tcnet, crash}!orbit!pnet51!chucks ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!chucks@nosc.mil INET: chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org
chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Erik Funkenbusch) (03/15/91)
rlcollins@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Ryan 'Gozar' Collins) writes: >In article <108.27D9CFB6@weyr.FIDONET.ORG>, David.Plummer@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG (David Plummer) writes: >>> if the _standard_ screen resolution ever evolves beyond 320X200) I >> think the... >> >> To which I present, clipped from another active screen using snap: >> >> Video Mode: NTSC >> Normal Display Size: 700 x 230 >> Maximum Display Size: 466 x 262 >> Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1:1.166 > >I think he was getting at that the games use the 320X200 mode. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Ryan 'Gozar' Collins Question for IBM Users: rlcollins@miavx1.BITNET > |||| Power Without How DO you move/copy a rc1dsanu@miamiu.BITNET > / || \ The Price!! Subdirectory? R.COLLINS1 on GEnie >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Very few games use 320x200. almost all games use 640x200. UUCP: {amdahl!tcnet, crash}!orbit!pnet51!chucks ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!chucks@nosc.mil INET: chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (03/15/91)
In article <00668668801@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM> elg@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM (Eric Lee Green) writes: >From article <3$P-B6-@irie.ais.org>, by jph@ais.org (Joseph Hillenburg): >> In article <00668212609@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM> elg@elgamy.RAIDERNET.COM (Eric Lee Green) writes: >>>From article <19467@cbmvax.commodore.com>, by raible@cbmvax.commodore.com >> (Bob Raible - LSI Design): >>>> In fact Jay Miner (former Atari guru) ... >>>Wrongo. >> Check who you're following up on next time. >I *KNOW* who I'm following up to :-). Actually, it's not Bob's fault. Most >of Commodore's present engineers came on board long after the original >Amiga team had been laid off/dispersed/quit/whatever. Well, a few of us, like me and Bob, have been at C= since before the Amiga. Some of us were among the first to get "into" the Amiga, but it started out on the user or hobby level first. For instance, I started using and programming an Amiga in 1985, but I didn't get to work on the hardware until the very end of 1986. Some of the IC folks now working on Amiga stuff got into it even later. Even old timers get their stories a little mixed up, and of course, we here on the Right Coast got a totally different picture of the goings on at Amiga than those who started the whole thing over there on the Left. Bob's chip designs are far more accurate than his story telling. And it wasn't that far off, anyway. The _stated_ goal, orginally, of the Amiga design team was to make an ultimate game machine, and that's how they started attracting money. That they wanted to, and actually managed to do more was certainly apparent by the time C= got involved. And the term "game machine" really shouldn't be a degradation, anyway. Basically, video games need to do many of the same kinds of things that personal computers need to do, only faster. The guts of many commercial video games, especially back in '85 when the Amiga was introduced, are far more sophisticated than your typical PC. -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "What works for me might work for you" -Jimmy Buffett
farren@sat.com (Michael J. Farren) (03/16/91)
chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org writes: > >Very few games use 320x200. almost all games use 640x200. Where do you come by this "information"? Almost all games use 320X200, as the speed hit you take with 16 colors in hires mode is considerable. -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael J. Farren farren@sat.com | | He's moody, but he's cute. | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (03/17/91)
In article <4326@orbit.cts.com> chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Erik Funkenbusch) writes: > Very few games use 320x200. almost all games use 640x200. Name one. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' <peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (03/17/91)
In article <1991Mar16.162630.16865@sugar.hackercorp.com> peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >In article <4326@orbit.cts.com> chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Erik Funkenbusch) writes: >> Very few games use 320x200. almost all games use 640x200. > >Name one. Workbench Lander. :-) Sorry, couldn't resist. A game in 640x200 using 16 colors would be possible, but it would have to use sprites almost entirely. Not that bad. The C64 used sprites for almost every moving object in most of it's games. Tricks have to be used to multiplex the sprites. (like the raster boundaries between groups of 8 sprites would be dynamic, instead of fixed like vsprites on the Amiga.) A using 640x200x3 bitplanes would be possible since that's the bandiwdth used by a HAM screen. Pioneer Plague proved a game in HAM was possible. 8 colors is very limiting, the copper would have to poke a new palette every few scanlines otherwise the game would look too plain. I don't think using hires mode would add much to the game. More colors and faster animation make games look better. HI-res would only stifle it. >-- >Peter da Silva. `-_-' ><peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>.
chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Erik Funkenbusch) (03/17/91)
farren@sat.com (Michael J. Farren) writes: >chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org writes: >> >>Very few games use 320x200. almost all games use 640x200. > >Where do you come by this "information"? Almost all games use 320X200, >as the speed hit you take with 16 colors in hires mode is considerable. > >-- >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Michael J. Farren farren@sat.com | >| He's moody, but he's cute. | >+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ Nearly every game i own, (over 100 of them) 95% of them use 640x200. nearly all Psygnosis games use 640x200. the only games that really don't are ports from EGA IBM games. UUCP: {amdahl!tcnet, crash}!orbit!pnet51!chucks ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!chucks@nosc.mil INET: chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org
chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Erik Funkenbusch) (03/17/91)
peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >In article <4326@orbit.cts.com> chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Erik Funkenbusch) writes: >> Very few games use 320x200. almost all games use 640x200. > >Name one. >-- >Peter da Silva. `-_-' ><peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>. Shadow of the Beast. I can name tons more, but of course i would need to go through them to make certain which ones do and don't UUCP: {amdahl!tcnet, crash}!orbit!pnet51!chucks ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!chucks@nosc.mil INET: chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org
rjc@geech.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (03/18/91)
In article <4341@orbit.cts.com> chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Erik Funkenbusch) writes: >peter@sugar.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >>In article <4326@orbit.cts.com> chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Erik Funkenbusch) writes: >>> Very few games use 320x200. almost all games use 640x200. >> >>Name one. >>-- >>Peter da Silva. `-_-' >><peter@sugar.hackercorp.com>. > > >Shadow of the Beast. > >I can name tons more, but of course i would need to go through them to make >certain which ones do and don't Wrong, SOTB uses 320x200x5 bitplanes (32 colors). 640x200x4 (maximum 16 colors) would block the blitter chip from chip ram access for most of the time. Because of this, a SOTB in 640 mode would be too slow and you wouldn't have all those giagantic objects on the screen moving smoothly. >UUCP: {amdahl!tcnet, crash}!orbit!pnet51!chucks >ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!chucks@nosc.mil >INET: chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org -- /~\_______________________________________________________________________/~\ |n| rjc@albert.ai.mit.edu Amiga, the computer for the creative mind. |n| |~| .-. .-. |~| |_|________________________________| |_| |________________________________|_|
cpca@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Colin Adams) (03/18/91)
In article <4338@orbit.cts.com> chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Erik Funkenbusch) writes: >farren@sat.com (Michael J. Farren) writes: >>chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org writes: >>> >>>Very few games use 320x200. almost all games use 640x200. >> >>Where do you come by this "information"? Almost all games use 320X200, >>as the speed hit you take with 16 colors in hires mode is considerable. >> > >Nearly every game i own, (over 100 of them) 95% of them use 640x200. nearly >all Psygnosis games use 640x200. the only games that really don't are ports >from EGA IBM games. > You must need you eyes checked.... Very few arcade games use 640*200, certainly not any of the Pygnosis games I've seen. The video access makes it way too slow (unless you want a 4/8 color game). >UUCP: {amdahl!tcnet, crash}!orbit!pnet51!chucks >ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!chucks@nosc.mil >INET: chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org -- Colin Adams Shadowplay James Cook University Amiga Developers Computer Science Department Internet : cpca@marlin.jcu.edu.au
David.Plummer@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG (David Plummer) (03/18/91)
RG> David.Plummer@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG (David Plummer) writes:
RG> >> if the _standard_ screen resolution ever evolves beyond 320X200)
RG> I
RG> > think the...
RG> >
RG> > To which I present, clipped from another active screen using snap:
RG> >
RG> > Video Mode: NTSC
RG> > Normal Display Size: 700 x 230
RG> > Maximum Display Size: 466 x 262
RG> > Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1:1.166
RG>
RG> I think he was getting at that the games use the 320X200 mode.
You mean they make GAMES for this thing too?
--
David Plummer - via FidoNet node 1:140/22
UUCP: ...!herald!weyr!70!David.Plummer
Domain: David.Plummer@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG
Standard Disclaimers Apply...David.Plummer@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG (David Plummer) (03/18/91)
Dave Haynie writes:
The guts of many commercial video games, especially back in '85
when the Amiga was introduced, are far more sophisticated than your
typical PC.
Case in point, I've got an Atari Tempest machine here, which, in 1979,
ran 1024 by 800 color vector graphics. It runs at a "Turbo" 2MHz (just
like a 128 :-) 6502. Best of all, since it predates FPU chips, and
required massive vector rotations (who could store precalced in 3K?) it
has a math BOARD about the size of the A500 motherboard.
I've dumped the ROMS, and its really quite elegant the way these people
programmed, but the hardware in this machine is really quite intriguing.
--
David Plummer - via FidoNet node 1:140/22
UUCP: ...!herald!weyr!70!David.Plummer
Domain: David.Plummer@f70.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG
Standard Disclaimers Apply...