tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd Green) (04/23/91)
I've been meaning to take the time and write a thoughtfull article on the A3000, but seems that it'll never get done. So here comes some rambling/questions off the top of my head. I'm in the process of doing research about the A3000 since I intend to purchase one in the next month or so. First of all the questions since they are the most important 1) Any final word on when KickStart 2.0 will be in ROM? Also as far as I have gathered KickStart is roughly equivalent to the Toolbox on the Mac (I come from a Mac background...at least that's what I get paid for as a living ;) ). 1a) What disadvantages would there be to getting a A3000 before KS 2.0 is put in ROM? Upgrade costs, troubles, etc. 1b) Once 2.0 is in ROM will you still be able to use 1.3 to retain compatibility. 2) Upon looking at the 1950 monitor I noticed an annoying flicker on the first scan line of the monitor. Escpecially when you would pull down a "screen". Any word on this? I think this was discussed before on this group...but oh well. 3) Any comments on the best development programs (C/C++/Objective-C) would be welcome. Commercial only. 3) Any difinitive word on the supposed problems with the SCSI controller with multiple drives? 4) This is not really for me, but a co-worker has asked me to ask for him (guess he's too lazy to type it in himself). What kind of deals/opportunities exist for an Amiga owner to develop for SEGA. Are there any packages/cross compilers etc. (reply either to myself or mdchaney@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu) And now for my comments observations: Good: 1) Over all a really nice machine especially for the price. Bad: 1) The interface is the worst (graphically speaking) out of the three computers that I hold worthwhile (Mac, NeXT, Amiga). First of all, the Amiga has rather nice graphical abilities. USE them. The low-res clunky sprite of a cursor (even in 2.0) amazes me. I feel like I'm using MaxAppleZoom. Secondly not being able to drag a window off the screen is unforgivable. Finally the use of color is poor, IMHO, but of course this is customizable. The ability to use a CLI along with a GUI tends to make up for some of the faults...but the "look and feel" could go a long, long way. 2) Poor text quality. After using a NeXT and Mac for over a year looking at the Amiga tends to make me think back to Apple II 40 column days. A sharper display would certainly help out the machine. Again this comes from limited use, so no flames please. These are just my initial observations from about 1 hour of playing with a machine in a local store. A final comment which I'll probably get flamed for is that I cannot believe the number of people posting that they bought an Amiga and have absolutely no clue about the machine. I just cannot believe people will plunk down several thousand dollars without having thoroughly studied the market/product. Wish I had that kind of money to blow. Thanks in advance, Todd -- Internet: tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu NeXTMail: tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu BitNet: tagreen@iubacs.bitnet
rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) (04/23/91)
In article <1991Apr22.184252.10274@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd Green) writes: >I've been meaning to take the time and write a thoughtfull article on >the A3000, but seems that it'll never get done. So here comes some >rambling/questions off the top of my head. > >I'm in the process of doing research about the A3000 since I intend to >purchase one in the next month or so. First of all the questions >since they are the most important > >1) Any final word on when KickStart 2.0 will be in ROM? Also as far >as I have gathered KickStart is roughly equivalent to the Toolbox on >the Mac (I come from a Mac background...at least that's what I get >paid for as a living ;) ). > 1a) What disadvantages would there be to getting a A3000 > before KS 2.0 is put in ROM? Upgrade costs, troubles, etc. I see none, upgrades are free from most dealers. > 1b) Once 2.0 is in ROM will you still be able to use 1.3 > to retain compatibility. I don't think so. C= is phasing out 1.3. You will still be able to run 1.3 on your A3000 provided you can find a copy of it, but I have heard C= will stop putting 1.3 on A3000s once 2.0 goes into ROM. > >2) Upon looking at the 1950 monitor I noticed an annoying flicker on the first >scan line of the monitor. Escpecially when you would pull down a "screen". >Any word on this? I think this was discussed before on this group...but oh well. > You should be able to adjust your screen size to mask off this scan line. >3) Any comments on the best development programs (C/C++/Objective-C) would be >welcome. Commercial only. SAS/C is the best C system. For C++ I guess you'd have to go with Comeau C++, however I think GNU's G++ is probably more complete. >3) Any difinitive word on the supposed problems with the SCSI controller with >multiple drives? I heard it's fixed now, but I think there used to be a problem with reselection being disabled by the OS. >4) This is not really for me, but a co-worker has asked me to ask for him >(guess he's too lazy to type it in himself). What kind of deals/opportunities >exist for an Amiga owner to develop for SEGA. Are there any packages/cross >compilers etc. (reply either to myself or mdchaney@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu) Dunno. >And now for my comments observations: > >Good: >1) Over all a really nice machine especially for the price. > >Bad: >1) The interface is the worst (graphically speaking) out of the three computers that >I hold worthwhile (Mac, NeXT, Amiga). First of all, the Amiga has rather nice >graphical abilities. USE them. The low-res clunky sprite of a cursor (even in >2.0) amazes me. I feel like I'm using MaxAppleZoom. Secondly not being able to >drag a window off the screen is unforgivable. Finally the use of color is poor, >IMHO, but of course this is customizable. The ability to use a CLI along with a >GUI tends to make up for some of the faults...but the "look and feel" could go a long, >long way. >2) Poor text quality. After using a NeXT and Mac for over a year looking at the >Amiga tends to make me think back to Apple II 40 column days. A sharper display >would certainly help out the machine. Again this comes from limited use, so no flames >please. These are just my initial observations from about 1 hour of playing with >a machine in a local store. > >A final comment which I'll probably get flamed for is that I cannot believe the number >of people posting that they bought an Amiga and have absolutely no clue about the >machine. I just cannot believe people will plunk down several thousand dollars without >having thoroughly studied the market/product. Wish I had that kind of money to blow. 1) Amiga sprites are Lo-res, sorry. I have no complaints about the pointer. Atleast it doesn't flicker when moved quickly during heavily I/O and CPU usage like the Mac. 2) Were you looking at 2.0? I think 2.0 looks much better than MacOS (haven't seen what system 7 looks like though.) 3) You can drag windows off the screen. Just make a large virtual screen. On the Amiga you can have multiple screens, with large virtual screens that are larger than can be displayed, that can be smooth scrolled around. With these screens, you can drag windows FAR off the screen. 4) Sharp display? How much sharper can you get? What monitor were you using? The Amiga has many resolutions, including 640x400 productivety/ deinterlaced that can be overscanned up to 704x440 or bigger. Put that on a 9 inch monitor like the Mac and you have 78 DPI. Remember, monochrome displays are always perceived sharper than color. 5) Most people who "plunk" down $2.5/3k for the A3000 know the capabilities of the machine. I suggest you go back and look at the A3000 again, but this time, spend a while playing around with the preferences changing the monitor/resolution settings. The Amiga environment can be highly customized and tailored for each user. > >Thanks in advance, > >Todd >-- >Internet: tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu >NeXTMail: tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu >BitNet: tagreen@iubacs.bitnet -- / INET:rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu * // The opinions expressed here do not \ | INET:r_cromwe@upr2.clu.net | \X/ in any way reflect the views of my self.| \ UUCP:uunet!tnc!m0023 * /
jph@ais.org (Joseph Hillenburg) (04/23/91)
In article <1991Apr22.184252.10274@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd Green) writes: Hi, Todd. >I've been meaning to take the time and write a thoughtfull article on >the A3000, but seems that it'll never get done. So here comes some >rambling/questions off the top of my head. > >I'm in the process of doing research about the A3000 since I intend to >purchase one in the next month or so. First of all the questions >since they are the most important > >1) Any final word on when KickStart 2.0 will be in ROM? Also as far >as I have gathered KickStart is roughly equivalent to the Toolbox on >the Mac (I come from a Mac background...at least that's what I get >paid for as a living ;) ). Commodore has a habit of not announcing things until the last minute. We're expecting it any time now, of course, it could be a few weeks, etc. > 1a) What disadvantages would there be to getting a A3000 > before KS 2.0 is put in ROM? Upgrade costs, troubles, etc. I believe the upgrade cost for the A3000 is nil. > 1b) Once 2.0 is in ROM will you still be able to use 1.3 > to retain compatibility. Yep, be sure to have a copy of the A3000 version of the 1.3.2 kickstart and use the 'cpu' program (aka setcpu in the public domain) to boot under 1.3.2. > >2) Upon looking at the 1950 monitor I noticed an annoying flicker on the first >scan line of the monitor. Escpecially when you would pull down a "screen". >Any word on this? I think this was discussed before on this group...but oh well. > Bug in the Amber chip. Not sure what Commodore will do about it. >3) Any comments on the best development programs (C/C++/Objective-C) would be >welcome. Commercial only. C: SAS/C 5.10A and Manx V are the most popular. SAS is starting to become more popular, and is an overall better product, especially with 5.10. C++: SAS and Comeau. (Comeau for AmigaDOS and AmigaUNIX) Both written by the same author. Comeau quit SAS (Known as Lattice at that time...) and made his own. SAS is working on a new version of their C++. Comeau C++ requires SAS/C 5.10. Objective: I haven't heard of any Objective C compiler for the Amiga, yet. >3) Any difinitive word on the supposed problems with the SCSI controller with >multiple drives? This is a problem with the Western Digital chip. It's supposed to be fixed, but I'm not sure. To avoid this, you just need to turn off reselection, to use multiple drives. (If your chip has the bug...) > >4) This is not really for me, but a co-worker has asked me to ask for him >(guess he's too lazy to type it in himself). What kind of deals/opportunities >exist for an Amiga owner to develop for SEGA. Are there any packages/cross >compilers etc. (reply either to myself or mdchaney@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu) Sega uses Amigas for development. Mail Sega of America Inc. 573 Forbes Blvd. South San Francisco, CA 94080 or call (415) 742-9300. BTW: You *could* redesign the pointer to look like the Mac pointer. It's set up the way it is so that it's the same size in all resolutions. >A final comment which I'll probably get flamed for is that I cannot believe the number >of people posting that they bought an Amiga and have absolutely no clue about the >machine. I just cannot believe people will plunk down several thousand dollars without >having thoroughly studied the market/product. Wish I had that kind of money to blow. Happens in all systems. (Example: You got a Mac... :) > >Thanks in advance, > >Todd >-- >Internet: tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu >NeXTMail: tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu >BitNet: tagreen@iubacs.bitnet -- // Joseph Hillenburg/Blackwinter, Secretary, Bloomington Amiga Users Group \X/ jph@valnet.UUCP jph@irie.ais.org jph@gnu.ai.mit.edu "Project: Desert Storm is also known as ``The Mother of All Ass-Kickings.''"
blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com (Blaine Gardner) (04/23/91)
tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd Green) writes: >1) Any final word on when KickStart 2.0 will be in ROM? Also as far Real Soon Now. CBM has been putting a LOT of effort into making 2.0 more compatible with 1.3, that's been the major delay from what I've heard. > 1a) What disadvantages would there be to getting a A3000 > before KS 2.0 is put in ROM? Upgrade costs, troubles, etc. No disadvantages that I can see, except you give up 512K of RAM to the Kickstart image that's loaded from disk. The advantages to the current setup is you can upgrade the OS from a floppy, without having to open the case. Since RAM is cheap, and RAM is faster than ROM, I plan to stay with the disk-based Kickstart myself. > 1b) Once 2.0 is in ROM will you still be able to use 1.3 > to retain compatibility. Unknown. CBM may not provide the ability to run 1.3, but it's likely that something like SetCPU or another PD/Shareware program will let you do it. Of course that depends on the availability of an A3000 compatible 1.3 KS image. >2) Upon looking at the 1950 monitor I noticed an annoying flicker on the first >scan line of the monitor. It's a bug/feature (depending on who you talk to) of the de-interlacer's design. I find it annoying myself, but dropping the Workbench's background gray a couple of notches and setting the WB screen size to 724x478 instead of 724x480 "fixes" it for me. >3) Any difinitive word on the supposed problems with the SCSI controller with >multiple drives? Fixed. It's still there in 2.02, but turning off reselection will work around it. It has been completely fixed for the next release. >2) Poor text quality. After using a NeXT and Mac for over a year looking at the >Amiga tends to make me think back to Apple II 40 column days. A sharper display >would certainly help out the machine. The best suggestion I can give you is DO NOT buy the A1950. CBM makes great computers, but they pick lousy OEMs for their displays. The A1950 is made in by AOC, not exactly the cream of the crop. You'll be much happier if you buy a really nice display like the NEC 3D or the Sony CPD-1302. I have the Sony myself, and prefer it to the NEC, and the NEC is far better than the A1950. Sony also makes displays for Apple, so you've probably seen them on Macs. -- Blaine Gardner @ Evans & Sutherland 580 Arapeen Drive, SLC, Utah 84108 blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com BIX: blaine_g DoD #46 My other motorcycle is a Quadracer. FJ1200
tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd Green) (04/23/91)
In article <_#3BWVB@irie.ais.org> jph@ais.org (Joseph Hillenburg) writes: >In article <1991Apr22.184252.10274@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd Green) writes: > >Hi, Todd. Hello back Joe! Well lets try this again. I've received numerous letters about the 3000 and I thank all of your for them. They ranged from outright flames to very useful comments. I'll try to summarize and restate my views to appease those who told me to steer away from the Amiga that I wouldn't like it at all. 1) KickStart 2.0 I received letters saying that it would cost anywhere from $0 to $50. My main question was about upgrading and it's ease/compatibility. Not the advantages/disadvantages of a ROM upgrade. You have to realize that not all companies are willing to give upgrades in this manner. Take apple for instance. I'll be amazed if they offer a ROM upgrade so that I can have 32-bit clean ROM in my IIcx, even though there is a SIMM slot specifically designed for this purpose. 2) flicker in scan line I was looking at a 1950 monitor. Bug in amber chip. If you play with the preferences it can be minimized or done away with. Many people suggested that I should use the preferences. Well yes, I did look at the choices of things that could be modified, BUT you have to realize that I was in a store and not all stores allow you to sit and play with the machines to your heart's desire. In fact some are quite rude and get rather worried when they see someone messing with their machines. (And I've tried all 3 of our local Amiga stores..only one was willing to let me get my hands on the machine...by the time I got there I only had about an hour left to use the machine..and there were also other customers interested in it.) You have to realize that it's a little different when you have your own machine and can play with it. I'm still trying to find someone willing to let me get my hands on their machine. HINT Joe. 3) My comments (flame) on the Amiga. I think I was most understood in this area, especially since I didn't have much good to say about it. Well that's because the good is granted, and all of you know the good qualities. In order to not duplicate what I had said before I'll generalize. Every machine has it's good and strong points, I tried to state the weak points that I see in the Amiga. To those of you who told me to get a Mac, obviously I already have one, and yes there are things about it that annoy me. There are things that annoy me about the NeXT that I use. No computer does it all. What I like about the Amiga is it's ability to do animation. No the GUI isn't ideal for me, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't get it. Probably more than anything else the reason why I'd liek an Amiga is because it's something else to master, something new. It's nice to be a novice again in a different environment. I think back to my first days in the VMS/UNIX world, my that was quite a step comming from a Mac world. I remember being horrified by the "$" prompt. Oh wel enough nostalgia. Finally my "crack" about Amiga people buying before shopping. I in no means meant to speak of _all_ the people in the Amiga community. Of course there are people like this in every walk of life. A friend recently dropped 22K for a ThunderBird SE without shopping around. That amazed me just as much as people who buy computers without doing what I would call sufficient research. If I offended anyone then I'm sorry. -- Internet: tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu NeXTMail: tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu BitNet: tagreen@iubacs.bitnet
daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (04/24/91)
In article <1991Apr22.184252.10274@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd Green) writes: >1) Any final word on when KickStart 2.0 will be in ROM? No official word yet, only "soon". >Also as far as I have gathered KickStart is roughly equivalent to the Toolbox >on the Mac (I come from a Mac background...at least that's what I get paid for >as a living ;) ). Pretty much. The KickStart ROM contains the operating system kernel and the most used libraries, which currently amounts to 512K for 2.0. Other library modules get loaded on demand from disk. Currently, that's about another 256K or more, depending on what you do load from disk. Amiga libraries will generally concentrate on a specific subsystem, examples are "exec", "graphics", "dos", "intuition", "mathieeedoubbas", etc. > 1a) What disadvantages would there be to getting a A3000 > before KS 2.0 is put in ROM? Upgrade costs, troubles, etc. It takes about 1 second longer to cold boot, and about 512K of your memory away from you. I don't know how the disk to ROM update is planned. It will never technically be necessary, though if the final KickStart isn't released on floppy, it may be physically necessary. > 1b) Once 2.0 is in ROM will you still be able to use 1.3 > to retain compatibility. I don't know if Commodore will support a trick, and I really don't have any reason to run 1.3 myself. But a little program I wrote awhile back, called SetCPU, lets you load just about any operating system ROM on any MMU based Amiga. I'm using it as we speak to run 2.0x on my A2500. I'm not sure it'll work on an A3000, since to date there hasn't been the need, but should the need arise, it'll be possible. >3) Any comments on the best development programs (C/C++/Objective-C) would be >welcome. Commercial only. I use SAS C myself. Most of the C code in the 2.0x OS is compiled with SAS too. I'm in the market for a good C++ translator. The original one sold by Lattice is a bit weak for real work, though they may offer a more up to date version at some point, and another company is currently selling their port of cfront 2.1. >3) Any difinitive word on the supposed problems with the SCSI controller with >multiple drives? The current release of the A3000 scsi.device knows how to handle the problems encountered between SCSI chip revisions. That doesn't necessarily imply that it'll actually work with reselection, only that you can set up reselection and the device driver will do The Right Thing based on whether it knows it can work or not that way. >4) This is not really for me, but a co-worker has asked me to ask for him >(guess he's too lazy to type it in himself). What kind of deals/opportunities >exist for an Amiga owner to develop for SEGA. Are there any packages/cross >compilers etc. (reply either to myself or mdchaney@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu) Don't know personally, but I have heard that many a Sega house use Amigas for their development platforms. Could be they use internal tools, though there are a variety of Amiga object to hex/S-Record converter out there in the public domain. >1) The interface is the worst (graphically speaking) out of the three computers that >I hold worthwhile (Mac, NeXT, Amiga). First of all, the Amiga has rather nice >graphical abilities. USE them. The low-res clunky sprite of a cursor (even in >2.0) amazes me. Well, the image they chose as a default is about the worst you can do. But sprites are always low resolution. I use a pointer that pretty much hides this feature of the Amiga hardware. And now that I'm used to it, I'll take the sprite pointer over one of those slow, jerkey software pointers any day, even if they are slightly sharper. >Secondly not being able to drag a window off the screen is unforgivable. Under 2.0, you can just make a larger screen if you want to be able to drag windows off of the displayed portion. In other words, the OS supports Workbench screens larger than the visable display, but you don't have to scroll around in them. I find this gives me pretty much the same functionality I get on the Mac II in my lab. Another thing to consider, though, is that, thanks to Amiga screens, you generally don't have as many windows in the way as you would on a Mac or a NeXT. >2) Poor text quality. After using a NeXT and Mac for over a year looking at >the Amiga tends to make me think back to Apple II 40 column days. A sharper >display would certainly help out the machine. That depends on what kind of display you have hooked up. I certainly would agree if you're running some application that sets up a 320x200 display, since that would be identical to the typical 40-column vintage setup. The standard 1.3 Workbench display at 640x200 isn't much better. Most A3000 users set up a ~700x~450 color display, which gives you just a tad more pixels than the basic Mac II display. Personally, I use the Moniterm/A2024 monitors (one at work, one at home) which give you a 1008x800x2 display, very similar to what a NeXT display does for you. >A final comment which I'll probably get flamed for is that I cannot believe >the number of people posting that they bought an Amiga and have absolutely >no clue about the machine. I just cannot believe people will plunk down >several thousand dollars without having thoroughly studied the market/product. >Wish I had that kind of money to blow. This seems to have been happening much longer than there have been Amigas. Or computers, for that matter. I don't know how to explain it, I my shopping very carefully for anything more expensive than a can of Coke or such. But I guess "looks neat" sells computers as easily as stereo equipment, cameras, or cars. >Todd -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
pochron@cat52.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) (04/25/91)
In article <1991Apr23.143421.17738@javelin.sim.es.com> blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com writes: >No disadvantages that I can see, except you give up 512K of RAM to the >Kickstart image that's loaded from disk. The advantages to the current >setup is you can upgrade the OS from a floppy, without having to open >the case. Since RAM is cheap, and RAM is faster than ROM, I plan to stay >with the disk-based Kickstart myself. Unless I am mistaken, I don't think Commodore will be releasing a disk-based final version of Kickstart this time around. Considering the only machines that *need* a disk based version of KS are the 1000's, and CBM has yet to give the green light for 2.0 support on it, (that is, though it is possible (now even) for 2.0 to run on the 1000's, CBM has to officially "sanction" it) I wouldn't hold my breath for a disk-based version of KS, except for any further pre-releases. (You could use them, if you don't mind using slightly buggy, gamma versions.) Furthermore, unless you have a pre-3000 Amiga with a faster CPU & 32 bit RAM, there is no speed difference between running KS in ROM and running KS in RAM! (I thought this was all discussed in c.s.a.h several months ago about ROM vs RAM...) Also, it is highly unlikely that CBM will continue to release KS 2.0 upgrades on disk after the ROM's are out. If any changes are made, they will be done through SetPatch. I hope I am not sounding too harsh, but I just don't see any advantage to using up 512K of precious RAM on the 3000's, + HD space, (or waiting for KS to load from floppy, (arg!)) just to have KS in RAM when there won't be any need to. (And again, any disk-based version is bound to not be as up-to-date as the final ROM version will be.) As for 2000 owners with 68020/30's, (like me) having SetCPU just download the OS from ROM into 32 bit RAM is much easier than having an image of it out on disk. If I need to use 1.3, SetCPU provides that feature already... >Blaine Gardner @ Evans & Sutherland 580 Arapeen Drive, SLC, Utah 84108 >blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com BIX: blaine_g >DoD #46 My other motorcycle is a Quadracer. FJ1200 -- David M. Pochron | Transparent DWV pipe: For the man who wants to | see it all... pochron@garfield.cs.wisc.edu | (If you don't know what DWV is, get a life! :-)
blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com (Blaine Gardner) (04/25/91)
pochron@cat52.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) writes: >In article <1991Apr23.143421.17738@javelin.sim.es.com> blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com writes: >>No disadvantages that I can see, except you give up 512K of RAM to the >>Kickstart image that's loaded from disk. The advantages to the current >>setup is you can upgrade the OS from a floppy, without having to open >>the case. Since RAM is cheap, and RAM is faster than ROM, I plan to stay >>with the disk-based Kickstart myself. >Unless I am mistaken, I don't think Commodore will be releasing a disk-based >final version of Kickstart this time around. CBM hasn't said anything one way or the other, but since all existing A3000's load KS from disk, it's at least a 50-50 chance that the final 2.0x KS will be available on disk for the A3000. Note here that the A3000 has a different KS image than the other machines (at least 1.3.x, 2.0 itself may deal with all machines with one KS), so a KS floppy for the A3000 doesn't mean that there will be a KS floppy for any other machines. But since CBM hasn't said anything, this is all pure speculation. >Furthermore, unless you have a pre-3000 Amiga with a faster CPU & 32 bit RAM, >there is no speed difference between running KS in ROM and running KS in RAM! >(I thought this was all discussed in c.s.a.h several months ago about ROM vs >RAM...) Unless you have a 32-bit CPU with an MMU, it's impossible to move KS into RAM, so how could you tell? On my A2500/20 moving KS to RAM gives about a 3.6 X speed increase to "ROM" access, quite noticable, and well worth the 256K of RAM. >I hope I am not sounding too harsh, but I just don't see any advantage to using >up 512K of precious RAM on the 3000's, + HD space, (or waiting for KS to load >from floppy, (arg!)) just to have KS in RAM when there won't be any need to. You're assuming that RAM and disk space are worth more than speed. I've got 8M of RAM and 600M of disk space, and I'll happily give up a half-meg of each to speed up the system. The time to load KS from disk is negligible (about 1-2 seconds, but it's fast enough that I've never bothered to time it), and you only need to do that from a cold boot, so that's not a factor either. The speed difference between RAM & ROM won't be as dramatic on the A3000 as it is on the A2500 because the A3000 ROM is 32 bits wide, but it's still dog-slow ROM. And 80 nS RAM is going to give you a noticable boost over 250 nS ROM (just a WAG on the ROM speed there, I don't remember it exactly). And again, we're only taking about the A3000 here, since it's the only machine that CBM has released 2.0 on. There are various tricks to let developers run 2.0 on any machine with 1M of AutoConfig RAM, but that's a developer's tool, not something fit for the general public. >(And again, any disk-based version is bound to not be as up-to-date as the >final ROM version will be.) Why? So far disk-based 2.0 Kickstarts are FAR more current than the antique KS ROM that bootstraps existing A3000's. Again, it comes down to CBM producing a floppy of the frozen 2.0 KS image. If they do, I'll run from disk, if they don't, I'll buy a ROM chip. >As for 2000 owners with 68020/30's, (like me) having SetCPU just download >the OS from ROM into 32 bit RAM is much easier than having an image of it out >on disk. If I need to use 1.3, SetCPU provides that feature already... But what about that precious RAM space you're loosing? :-) -- Blaine Gardner @ Evans & Sutherland 580 Arapeen Drive, SLC, Utah 84108 blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com BIX: blaine_g DoD #46 My other motorcycle is a Quadracer. FJ1200
caw@miroc.Chi.IL.US (Christopher A. Wichura) (04/25/91)
In article <1991Apr22.184252.10274@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd Green) writes: >1) Any final word on when KickStart 2.0 will be in ROM? Also as far There is no definitave date the C= has stated, no. However, word on the street is RSN. >as I have gathered KickStart is roughly equivalent to the Toolbox on >the Mac (I come from a Mac background...at least that's what I get Maybe I don't know what Toolbox is (I hate the Mac and avoid it as much as possible, but to each his own), but, by its name, I think of Toolbox along the lines of say an X toolkit. That's something you would use to make building an application easier because you call widgets and whatnot that handle things like layout and buttons for you, etc. Kickstart is what the Amiga's OS is refered to as. It's the whole kit and kaboodle. Now, with 2.0, it is true that you have things like gadtools.library which provide toolkit functionality, but there is so much more in Kickstart that's OS and not toolkit. > 1a) What disadvantages would there be to getting a A3000 > before KS 2.0 is put in ROM? Upgrade costs, troubles, etc. Shouldn't make any difference. As my dealer tells me (I own an A3000), the 2.0 ROM upgrade for 3000 owners will be treated like an in warranty service request. Bring the machine in, let the dealer bang on it (depending on your dealer, maybe not such a good thing... my dealer is pretty cool, though), and take it home with 2.0 ROMs. >2) Upon looking at the 1950 monitor I noticed an annoying flicker on the first >scan line of the monitor. Escpecially when you would pull down a "screen". >Any word on this? I think this was discussed before on this group...but oh well. This is an artifact of the AMBER display enhancer chip. Whether or not it will be fixed I have no information on. If it is fixed, all it should require is swapping in a new AMBER. >3) Any comments on the best development programs (C/C++/Objective-C) would be >welcome. Commercial only. For C, the two big names are SAS and Manx. I prefer SAS. Let's just say that a fair amount of Kickstart 2.0 is compiled with SAS... >3) Any difinitive word on the supposed problems with the SCSI controller with >multiple drives? This is a reselction problem, and C= on the net have stated many times recently that the final ROMs for the A3000 will have an scsi.device driver that has this problem fixed. As it stands now, I use two drives with reselection turned off on both and have never had any problems. Others on the net complain that they do. Your milage may vary. >4) This is not really for me, but a co-worker has asked me to ask for him >(guess he's too lazy to type it in himself). What kind of deals/opportunities >exist for an Amiga owner to develop for SEGA. Are there any packages/cross >compilers etc. (reply either to myself or mdchaney@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu) This you need to talk to SEGA about. The main CPU is a 68000, for which there are several different compilers (C, Module II, etc) and assemblers available on the Amiga. It also has a Z80 chip in it (often used to handle the sound, as I understand it) and I know of at least one PD Z80 assembler. >2) Poor text quality. After using a NeXT and Mac for over a year looking at the >Amiga tends to make me think back to Apple II 40 column days. A sharper display >would certainly help out the machine. Again this comes from limited use, so no flames >please. These are just my initial observations from about 1 hour of playing with >a machine in a local store. I use my A3000 with a 1950. My WB is set to 724x484 resolution and looks quite nice. Admitadly, if your dealer was running something like 640x200... -=> CAW Christopher A. Wichura Multitasking. Just DO it. caw@miroc.chi.il.us (my amiga) ...the Amiga way... u12401@uicvm.uic.edu (school account)
pochron@cat52.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) (04/25/91)
In article <1991Apr24.214121.4631@javelin.sim.es.com> blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com writes: >pochron@cat52.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) writes: > >CBM hasn't said anything one way or the other, but since all existing >A3000's load KS from disk, it's at least a 50-50 chance that the final ... >machines. But since CBM hasn't said anything, this is all pure >speculation. True, but since there are ROM sockets in the 3000, I think there is a much higher possibility of KS being ROM-only. >>Furthermore, unless you have a pre-3000 Amiga with a faster CPU & 32 bit RAM, >>there is no speed difference between running KS in ROM and running KS in RAM! >>(I thought this was all discussed in c.s.a.h several months ago about ROM vs >>RAM...) > >Unless you have a 32-bit CPU with an MMU, it's impossible to move KS >into RAM, so how could you tell? On my A2500/20 moving KS to RAM gives >about a 3.6 X speed increase to "ROM" access, quite noticable, and well >worth the 256K of RAM. See above - that is just what I said! :-) Plus, like I said in my previous message, I do have a 68030 installed in my 2000 - that is how I can tell. (Also with the help of a neat little program called "RomBash") It is trivial to get SetCPU to load the ROM image into 16 bit fast memory instead of the 32 bit "super" fast memory. There is no difference in speed when I run the OS out of 16 bit fast mem instead of the ROMs...Only 32 bit fast mem makes a difference. >You're assuming that RAM and disk space are worth more than speed. I've >got 8M of RAM and 600M of disk space, and I'll happily give up a >half-meg of each to speed up the system. The time to load KS from disk >is negligible (about 1-2 seconds, but it's fast enough that I've never You could transfer that 512K image from ROM into RAM in less than a second. I don't know which 68030 card you have, but if it is the 2630 (like mine) you only have 4 megs of 32 bit RAM - that and is the critical RAM! In fact, I would go as far to say I really only have 4 megs of RAM on my system, because the 2.5 megs of additional 16 bit RAM I have is almost useless, except for RAM disk space. Having said that, using 512K of my 32 bit RAM is like using 12.5% if my system's memory up! (Same for yours too, if you have only 4 megs of 32 bit RAM) Unfortunately, the 2000 doesn't have a socket for 32 bit ROMs, so when 2.0 comes out, I will be stuck with losing 512K of my memory...BUT....If there were a way to install the 3000's 32 bit ROMs onto the A2630 board, you had better believe I would do it in a moment's notice! (Hint, hint, D.H...A great A2630 daughterboard project... :-) >>(And again, any disk-based version is bound to not be as up-to-date as the >>final ROM version will be.) > >Why? So far disk-based 2.0 Kickstarts are FAR more current than the >antique KS ROM that bootstraps existing A3000's. Again, it comes down to Yes, "so far" are the key words - you must remember 2.0 is *not* officially out yet - those versions are strictly for testing only. When 2.0 is finished, those disk-based updates will vanish. Right now, they are only available because the OS is not finished, and Commodore can still make semi-major changes before everything is set in place. To compare the 3000's bootstrap ROM's to the final 2.0 ROM's is not fair - it is NOT part of the OS. Once KS is loaded nothing is used from the bootstraps. >Blaine Gardner @ Evans & Sutherland 580 Arapeen Drive, SLC, Utah 84108 >blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com BIX: blaine_g >DoD #46 My other motorcycle is a Quadracer. FJ1200 -- David M. Pochron | Transparent DWV pipe: For the man who wants to | see it all... pochron@garfield.cs.wisc.edu | (If you don't know what DWV is, get a life! :-)
manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) (04/26/91)
In article <1991Apr24.172714.462@daffy.cs.wisc.edu>, pochron@cat52.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) writes: > In article <1991Apr23.143421.17738@javelin.sim.es.com> blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com writes: >>No disadvantages that I can see, except you give up 512K of RAM to the >>Kickstart image that's loaded from disk. The advantages to the current >>setup is you can upgrade the OS from a floppy, without having to open >>the case. Since RAM is cheap, and RAM is faster than ROM, I plan to stay >>with the disk-based Kickstart myself. > > Unless I am mistaken, I don't think Commodore will be releasing a disk-based > final version of Kickstart this time around. Considering the only machines > that *need* a disk based version of KS are the 1000's, and CBM has yet to give > the green light for 2.0 support on it, (that is, though it is possible (now > even) for 2.0 to run on the 1000's, CBM has to officially "sanction" it) I > wouldn't hold my breath for a disk-based version of KS, except for any further > pre-releases. (You could use them, if you don't mind using slightly buggy, > gamma versions.) They will have to release a disk based version of Kickstart to developers. The whole idea of the beta test process is to test the OS that is going to be put into ROM. I don't think the testing process would work real well if Commodore said "Ok beta testers, thats it, we are going to change a few things and then put it in ROM". So there will be a disk based version of the ROM that is sent for duplication. Now perhaps what you mean is that Commodore may not release to the masses a disk based kickstart. That remains to be seen. In a way I would like to see Commodore do this, and in another way, I would not. I would like a disk based kicstart released for the A3000, but my fear would be that the software manufactures may "wimp" and say our software uses 1.3, as it is the most used OS for the Amiga. It would remind me all too well of the C-128 days. > > Furthermore, unless you have a pre-3000 Amiga with a faster CPU & 32 bit RAM, > there is no speed difference between running KS in ROM and running KS in RAM! > (I thought this was all discussed in c.s.a.h several months ago about ROM vs > RAM...) > > Also, it is highly unlikely that CBM will continue to release KS 2.0 > upgrades on disk after the ROM's are out. If any changes are made, they will > be done through SetPatch. That is probably true. However setpatch can work for a disk based version of kickstart as well as a ROM based one. > > I hope I am not sounding too harsh, but I just don't see any advantage to using > up 512K of precious RAM on the 3000's, + HD space, (or waiting for KS to load > from floppy, (arg!)) just to have KS in RAM when there won't be any need to. > (And again, any disk-based version is bound to not be as up-to-date as the > final ROM version will be.) I can see the advantage _if_ you are a developer. Otherwise I would agree with you. I am thankful that the A3000 once again knows how to soft load a Kickstart. I _hope_ that the 2.0 rom will still allow the soft loading mechanism to work. If it doesn't then I don't intend to put a 2.0 rom in my A3000. I will put one in the A2000 though. I understood the marketing reasons as to why kickstart had to go to ROM for the A500/A2000. In _my_ opinion, one of the things I really missed was the flexibility of the kickstart design. It is too bad the market- place is too stupid to appreciate it. My VAX has a write control store... why can't my Amiga keep it?? ;-) > > > >>Blaine Gardner @ Evans & Sutherland 580 Arapeen Drive, SLC, Utah 84108 >>blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com BIX: blaine_g >>DoD #46 My other motorcycle is a Quadracer. FJ1200 > > David M. Pochron | Transparent DWV pipe: For the man who wants to > | see it all... > pochron@garfield.cs.wisc.edu | (If you don't know what DWV is, get a life! :-) -mark= +--------+ ================================================== | \/ | Mark D. Manes "Mr. AmigaVision, The 32 bit guy" | /\ \/ | manes@vger.nsu.edu | / | (804) 683-2532 "Make up your own mind! - AMIGA" +--------+ ==================================================
blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com (Blaine Gardner) (04/27/91)
pochron@cat52.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) writes: >In article <1991Apr24.214121.4631@javelin.sim.es.com> blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com writes: >>pochron@cat52.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) writes: > It is trivial to get SetCPU to load the ROM image into >16 bit fast memory instead of the 32 bit "super" fast memory. There is no >difference in speed when I run the OS out of 16 bit fast mem instead of the How are you getting SetCPU to load KS into 16 bit RAM? >ROMs...Only 32 bit fast mem makes a difference. You're mistaken here. There are two distinct things giving you the speed up. First is the 32 bit wide memory. Second is the 80 nS RAM vs the 250 nS ROM. When KS is in RAM you don't have the wait states the ROM does. On the A3000 only the second consideration comes into play because the ROMs are 32 bits wide. >You could transfer that 512K image from ROM into RAM in less than a second. .5 second, 2 seconds, it doesn't really matter to me when it is only on power-up, because I only do that once a week or less. >I don't know which 68030 card you have, but if it is the 2630 (like mine) As I said before, it's called the "A3000", and I've been referring specifically to the A3000 in this discussion. If the frozen version of 2.0 is released on floppy, I expect it will be only for the A3000, not the 500 and 2000. (And possibly the A1000, depending on CBM's whims.) >>>(And again, any disk-based version is bound to not be as up-to-date as the >>>final ROM version will be.) >>Why? So far disk-based 2.0 Kickstarts are FAR more current than the >>antique KS ROM that bootstraps existing A3000's. Again, it comes down to >Yes, "so far" are the key words - you must remember 2.0 is *not* officially >out yet - those versions are strictly for testing only. When 2.0 is finished, >those disk-based updates will vanish. Right now, they are only available >because the OS is not finished, and Commodore can still make semi-major >changes before everything is set in place. To compare the 3000's bootstrap >ROM's to the final 2.0 ROM's is not fair - it is NOT part of the OS. Once KS >is loaded nothing is used from the bootstraps. But 2.0 IS officially released for the A3000. And there are no "bootstrap" ROMs in the A3000, those are genuine Kickstart ROMs. A very very early beta of 2.0, true, but it is Kickstart 2.000000 that is in the ROM that bootstraps KS 2.02 from disk. And have you forgotten the 2.02 Kickstart upgrade that CBM has already made for all A3000 owners? That's a good indication that they might provide the final 2.0x upgrade for A3000 owners on disk as well as ROM. -- Blaine Gardner @ Evans & Sutherland 580 Arapeen Drive, SLC, Utah 84108 blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com BIX: blaine_g DoD #46 My other motorcycle is a Quadracer. FJ1200
caw@miroc.Chi.IL.US (Christopher A. Wichura) (04/27/91)
In article <1991Apr26.202103.22105@javelin.sim.es.com> blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com (Blaine Gardner) writes: >And have you forgotten the 2.02 Kickstart upgrade that CBM has already >made for all A3000 owners? That's a good indication that they might >provide the final 2.0x upgrade for A3000 owners on disk as well as ROM. I don't see what all the fuss is about. I'm pretty much sure that C= will release 2.0 in ROM only for A3000 users. Why? Because the CPU command found in 2.0's C: has a FastROM option, just like SetCPU. If you've got an A3000 and want to run 2.0 from RAM you slap a CPU FastROM in your startup sequence. Otherwise you run from ROM. -=> CAW Christopher A. Wichura Multitasking. Just DO it. caw@miroc.chi.il.us (my amiga) ...the Amiga way... u12401@uicvm.uic.edu (school account)
robin@vipunen.hut.fi (Jarto 'Robin' Tarpio) (04/29/91)
In article <caw.9667@miroc.Chi.IL.US> caw@miroc.Chi.IL.US (Christopher A. Wichura) writes: > I'm pretty much sure that C= will > release 2.0 in ROM only for A3000 users. Why? Because the CPU command > found in 2.0's C: has a FastROM option, just like SetCPU. If you've got an > A3000 and want to run 2.0 from RAM you slap a CPU FastROM in your startup > sequence. Otherwise you run from ROM. So ? I have tried to figure out why the CPU-command would force the OS to be relesead on ROM only for A3000. That doesn't make sense. CPU FastROM only copies the ROM to RAM for some speedup. -=> CAW /robin
rblewitt@sdcc6.ucsd.edu (Richard Blewitt) (04/30/91)
In article <ROBIN.91Apr29105054@vipunen.hut.fi> robin@vipunen.hut.fi (Jarto 'Robin' Tarpio) writes: >In article <caw.9667@miroc.Chi.IL.US> caw@miroc.Chi.IL.US (Christopher A. Wichura) writes: >> I'm pretty much sure that C= will >> release 2.0 in ROM only for A3000 users. Why? Because the CPU command > I have tried to figure out why the CPU-command would force the > OS to be relesead on ROM only for A3000. That doesn't make > sense. CPU FastROM only copies the ROM to RAM for some speedup. I think you mis-parsed the statement. 2.0 will be available to all in rom, but there will likely be no disk based release for the 3000. I guess there should have been a comma in that sentance somewhere. Rick
pochron@rt1.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) (04/30/91)
In article <1991Apr26.202103.22105@javelin.sim.es.com> blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com writes: >How are you getting SetCPU to load KS into 16 bit RAM? Simple...Boot the KS from a disk, either from a "kickfile" or a KickStart disk itself. It loads it into C00000 memory (which, I know, is slightly slower than "real" fast 16 bit RAM, but I am taking that into account) and as long as you never do a FASTROM when you reboot, it stays there. Of course, when you have 1 or 2 megs of CHIP RAM and the C00000 stuff doesn't exist, things could be a bit more tricky. >You're mistaken here. There are two distinct things giving you the >speed up. First is the 32 bit wide memory. Second is the 80 nS RAM vs >the 250 nS ROM. When KS is in RAM you don't have the wait states the ROM Hmmm, That is interesting. I thought ROMs were just like static RAM - no wait states. Well, if that is the case, then you have enlightened me. >But 2.0 IS officially released for the A3000. And there are no >"bootstrap" ROMs in the A3000, those are genuine Kickstart ROMs. A very >very early beta of 2.0, true, but it is Kickstart 2.000000 that is in >the ROM that bootstraps KS 2.02 from disk. I did not know that either. I thought the ROMs were similar to the ones found in the A1000's - basic boot up stuff, then get KickStart. Since you have a 3000 with loads of 32 bit RAM, I guess it doesn't matter for you that much. I have a 2000, with a limited amount of 32 bit RAM. I'd rather have 2.0 on a nice 32 bit ROM image instead, even is some wait states were present; but that is not *yet* possible with the A2630 card. >Blaine Gardner @ Evans & Sutherland 580 Arapeen Drive, SLC, Utah 84108 >blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com BIX: blaine_g >DoD #46 My other motorcycle is a Quadracer. FJ1200 And, Mark D. Hanes writes: >Now perhaps what you mean is that Commodore may not release to the masses >a disk based kickstart. That remains to be seen. In a way I would like >to see Commodore do this, and in another way, I would not. Yes, that is what I mean. Unless a person is a developer (or a pirate) you probably won't get a disk based KS. Just speculation, of course. >I would like a disk based kicstart released for the A3000, but my fear >would be that the software manufactures may "wimp" and say our software >uses 1.3, as it is the most used OS for the Amiga. That is why I am making it a point to have 2.0 in ROM. If something doesn't work on my machine, I can claim the right to complain to the developer "this doesn't work and there is no reason why it shouldn't if it is supposed to be quality software." At least, thanks to SetCPU, I can drop back to 1.3 if absolutely necessary. >I understood the marketing reasons as to why kickstart had to go to ROM >for the A500/A2000. In _my_ opinion, one of the things I really missed >was the flexibility of the kickstart design. It is too bad the market- >place is too stupid to appreciate it. Sorry, I can't buy that. I have a 1000 downstairs and it is a pain in the butt to have to load KickStart all the time. In fact, if I had my way, the whole system would be in 1 large ROM chip + some non-volatile RAM for preferences and stuff, and just turn on the computer and have it all there without ever having to insert a single floppy. Also please keep my point of view in mind here - I *do not* have a hard drive! I'd love to have one, but, unless they come down in price to about $150 for both the controller and mechanism combined, I can't afford one! So keeping my bootup as short as possible is CRITICAL. Leaving the machine on all the time is not a solution either - that fan is just too noisy! For us floppy owners, having KS in ROM is the only way to go. With SetCPU, I can transfer the image (and use up 512K of my 32 RAM :-( ) as necessary. I don't see what the big deal about KS on disk is...KS upgrades (for the general public...I don't have 2.0, do you?) come no more often as they come on ROM chip. It is easier for me to insert a ROM chip into a socket once than to have to insert a KS floppy all the time. Even if I had a HD, it is just as easy for me to insert a ROM as it would be to install a Kickfile on a HD. > -mark= > > +--------+ ================================================== > | \/ | Mark D. Manes "Mr. AmigaVision, The 32 bit guy" > | /\ \/ | manes@vger.nsu.edu > | / | (804) 683-2532 "Make up your own mind! - AMIGA" > +--------+ ================================================== -- David M. Pochron | Transparent DWV pipe: For the man who wants to | see it all... pochron@garfield.cs.wisc.edu | (If you don't know what DWV is, get a life! :-)
peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) (05/02/91)
In all these arguments whether to put 2.0 in ROM or on a KS disk,
I can contribute another one:
I favor releasing 2.0 only on ROM, because this way the customer is
forced to get it from Commodore and not just copies it at his neighbour.
This not because of the revenue (you don't make money with such
upgrades), but because of the fact that with KS on ROM there will be
included a 2.0 User manual in the package. Anyone who has an A3000
knows how big this thingie has grown.
My point is: Anyone who tries to use 2.0 without the proper manual
will fail or at least miss many of the new features. He probably
won't be able to take full advantage of the OS. So perhaps he will
be dispappointed and blame the OS/Commodore to not fulfill all his
dreams, but perhaps he just didn't know that he had to issue one
more argument to get all he wanted.
--
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions...
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterkdaveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (05/03/91)
In article <1991Apr25.154002.4471@daffy.cs.wisc.edu> pochron@cat52.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) writes: >Unfortunately, the 2000 doesn't have a socket for 32 bit ROMs, Not surprising, since it doesn't have a 32 bit anything as far as the hardware is concerned... >so when 2.0 comes out, I will be stuck with losing 512K of my memory...BUT....If there >were a way to install the 3000's 32 bit ROMs onto the A2630 board, you had >better believe I would do it in a moment's notice! (Hint, hint, D.H...A great >A2630 daughterboard project... :-) Well, strangely enough, that could be done, though not quite the way you're thinking. A3000 ROMs looks for A3000-specific hardware that won't be on an A2500. So they'll go into one of their friendly error notification loops. However, you can do it the way we brought up the A3000, with two A2000 ROMs sitting side-by-side. The A2630 daughterboard can intercept any bus address its designed likes, so this wouldn't be all that difficult to manage. > David M. Pochron | Transparent DWV pipe: For the man who wants to -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
sjun@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Sungtaeg Jun) (05/03/91)
Several Stuffs
1. Putting K.S. 2.0 into ROM.:
As a recent owner of A3000, I agree that K.S. should be
in ROM. My machine is basic model with 1MB Fast RAM.
When I turn the machine on there is only 200KB available fast ram.
The speed is dragging when you try to run more than 1 program.
Although the price of the DRAM is dirt cheap in now days (;-)),
there are many people who expect to run the system
witout upgrading for some time. I think the additional memory
released by Kick Start should be good enough for many applications
except video works.
2. Disappearance of a directory.
A wierd thing happend to my A3000 this morning.
I was looking for a painting program and evaluating some of the
demos and public domain first.
Last night, I have downloaded a demo program called spectracolor
from oxxiipainting. When my son (5yrs) saw this, he wanted play
with it and I let him to do so and left the house for some extra works.
My son was really hooked in this and got up early in the morning
to try it again. Then, he came to me and told me that he cannot find
the painting program. I went to see it and found out that not only
the directory containing the spectracolor but also its parent
directory is gone. Fortunately, I could reinstall most of the
stuffs in that directory except some Public domain programs that took
me several days to download. Also, it took me entire evening
to do that. I know that there is possibility
that my son may have deleted the directory accidentally though I
doubt it as it requires the exact sequence of key pressing.
Any way, I made it clear to my son no to turn on the computer by himself.
What I want to know is that the demo program erase itself after several
trials and accidentally erase its parent directory along its own directory?
3. DefaultIcon.lzh in ab20
It may be old story but here it goes.
There are several K.S. 2.0 utilities in ab20 at amiga/utils/2.0/.
Among them DefaultIcon is a quite handy utility for WB2.0.
It does create default icons for several files/directories/etc.
whether they already have icons or not. It even changes
the directory icons from WB1.3 to WB2.0 form.
Its manual is quite clear with step by step instruction.
When you put this icon into wbstartup drawer, it is supposed to create
a window where you can drag the other icons to chage them to
defaults.
The problem with it is that its window does not show up when you try
the program. It turns out that its default window position is
outside workbench. I found this out by changing the monitor resolution
into super high resolution.
To fix this problem, you have to change CWindow_XPOS(?), and CWindow_YPOS(?)
value from its information window. The name of variable is not exact
but you will now it when you check its information.
Try several values of X and Y positions until you can see the window.
I have set them X=150 Y=240. Most of the values does not seem to work
as they should be.
4. Need some help with information gadget.
Why some icons have default tools gadget while others don't in their
information menu?
- Sung Jun -daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (05/03/91)
In article <1991Apr30.160504.22656@daffy.cs.wisc.edu> pochron@rt1.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) writes: >In article <1991Apr26.202103.22105@javelin.sim.es.com> blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com writes: >>How are you getting SetCPU to load KS into 16 bit RAM? >Simple...Boot the KS from a disk, either from a "kickfile" or a KickStart >disk itself. It loads it into C00000 memory (which, I know, is slightly >slower than "real" fast 16 bit RAM, but I am taking that into account) and >as long as you never do a FASTROM when you reboot, it stays there. Sure does. Because I called it FASTROM, I felt obligated to have SetCPU make it's best attempt at finding some 32 bit RAM and using it. But the ROM translation stuff should, in theory, work out of any memory. Chip RAM or the Chip bus $00C00000 RAM is used for KICKROM boots, simply because, after RESET, all RAM goes away, and that's the easiest to get back -- no special autoconfiguration magic to try. While SetCPU looks specifically for A26x0 32 bit RAM, on all other systems it'll use the first pool of Fast RAM it can find for its FASTROM. >>You're mistaken here. There are two distinct things giving you the >>speed up. First is the 32 bit wide memory. Second is the 80 nS RAM vs >>the 250 nS ROM. When KS is in RAM you don't have the wait states the ROM >Hmmm, That is interesting. I thought ROMs were just like static RAM - no >wait states. Well, if that is the case, then you have enlightened me. Static RAM and ROM do follow similar principles. Both are indeed statically addressed. Neither are every "no wait states" on an arbitrarily fast machine. In both cases, there's always a speed versus size tradeoff. You can get tiny ROMs, generally used for control or microROM, in the 1Kbit range, that go 10ns or so. When you talking about 4Mbits, you're lucky to get 150ns or thereabouts. Though they do get faster every year. >>I understood the marketing reasons as to why kickstart had to go to ROM >>for the A500/A2000. In _my_ opinion, one of the things I really missed >>was the flexibility of the kickstart design. It is too bad the market- >>place is too stupid to appreciate it. >Sorry, I can't buy that. I have a 1000 downstairs and it is a pain in the >butt to have to load KickStart all the time. For your primary boot, KickStart off a floppy is real annoying. We'd be laughed out of the market if a system like the A3000 had to do it that way. From hard disk, you barely notice it. I run 2.0 similarly on an A2500, via a little Startup-Sequence nonsense, and it's nearly as fast booting as the A3000. >I don't see what the big deal about KS on disk is...KS upgrades (for the >general public...I don't have 2.0, do you?) come no more often as they >come on ROM chip. I don't see it as a big deal either. Then again, I used to build (stuff and solder up) A2000 motherboards by hand (our technicians have since learned about the wave solder machine downstairs, so that's not longer necessary). But some people just object to changing ROMs. And new ROMs will always be a tad more expensive than one more floppy. So there's something to be said about making 2.0 available on disk. Whether they will or not is anyone's guess. > David M. Pochron | Transparent DWV pipe: For the man who wants to -- Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Amiga 3000) "The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: hazy BIX: hazy "That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight" -R.E.M.
doctorj@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Jeffrey W Davis) (05/03/91)
In article <1190@cbmger.UUCP> peterk@cbmger.UUCP (Peter Kittel GERMANY) writes: > >In all these arguments whether to put 2.0 in ROM or on a KS disk, >I can contribute another one: > >I favor releasing 2.0 only on ROM, because this way the customer is >forced to get it from Commodore and not just copies it at his neighbour. >This not because of the revenue (you don't make money with such >upgrades), but because of the fact that with KS on ROM there will be >included a 2.0 User manual in the package. Anyone who has an A3000 >knows how big this thingie has grown. > I don't think that piracy is a valid issue when talking about operating system upgrades. The upgrades should be useable on all of the machines it can possibly target. The ROM is going to be compatible with pre-A3000 hardware and pre-ECS chipset, so it should run on all Amigas. Besides, ROMs are copyable too and AMAX pirates have proved this. Not to mention that reading the ROM that you are using and writing it to disk is CAKE! I could have the ROM in a file in 5 minutes flat! Why should the A1000 market be thrown out? A KS disk could be utilized here with some slight modification. That of course is a slightly different argument, but... An A1000 equipped with an 030 board would benifit from a KS disk immediately. What about the A2500/030 users that could use a disk based KS and load it into faster 32-bit memory? Why force people to add another ROM and switcher when they don't need it? What it boils down to is that if the new OS is destributed on both ROM and disk, a bigger user base will be targeted. Personally, I have no use for a ROM but a disk version of 2.0 will (and does) work fine AND from 32-bit memory. If C= doesn't release a disk version, my ONLY choice is to 'pirate' a copy onto disk. And I am not about to give up an OS update just because C= only released it on one medium. >My point is: Anyone who tries to use 2.0 without the proper manual >will fail or at least miss many of the new features. He probably >won't be able to take full advantage of the OS. So perhaps he will >be dispappointed and blame the OS/Commodore to not fulfill all his >dreams, but perhaps he just didn't know that he had to issue one >more argument to get all he wanted. > Awwwgh! Poor Mr. Pirate didn't get his money's (or lack there of) worth. This is rediculous. Software pirates don't usually have many complaints about the software they steal! Besides, OS updates are usually VERY reasonably priced. I believe I paid a whole $13 for the 1.3 update and manual. >Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions... *********************************************************** * Jeff Davis * Relax! And get into /// * * doctorj@en.ecn.purdue.edu * the STRESS!!! /// * * * \\\///030 * * * -Gigahertz!- Amiga\XX/ 882 * *********************************************************** "Opinions, opinions, opinions... How can I possibly be wrong?" - Me
holgerl@amiux.agsc.sub.org (Holger Lubitz) (05/05/91)
In article <1991Apr24.172714.462@daffy.cs.wisc.edu> pochron@cat52.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron) writes: >Furthermore, unless you have a pre-3000 Amiga with a faster CPU & 32 bit RAM, >there is no speed difference between running KS in ROM and running KS in RAM! There is, unless you have Fast-Ram. Most 500 users (here in Europe at least) haven't, because they bought the cheap $C00000-Expansions that fit into the internal 500 slot. With heavy load on the chip bus, chip ram access is slowed, which also applies to $c00000-type RAM. However, ROM access is NOT slowed under these circumstances, so it is faster. Best regards, Holger -- Holger Lubitz, Kl. Drakenburger Str. 24, D-W-3070 Nienburg/Weser